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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)  (Read 49298 times)

JJCalem

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #50 on: 18 Apr 2017, 09:19 »

Wouldn't Canadian Tire, in the QC universe, probably have cybernetic parts for robots with enough money?  :-P
That seems like a plausible direction for them to go in actually.  I will consider it canon :P
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Precipice

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #51 on: 18 Apr 2017, 10:51 »

Imagine if you bought something at Wal-mart, and they gave you Wal-mart gift cards worth 5 cents or more, depending on how much you spent -- but only if you paid using cash or debit, not if you paid by credit card. You could use the gift cards whenever you shop at Wal-mart.

Now imagine instead of plastic gift cards, they give you store coupons, designed to look like a cross between Monopoly money and real money. They print it in denominations from 5 cents and up, and they call it Wal-mart Money.

That's Canadian Tire Money. It's been around for over 20 years.

Canadian Tire now has a smartphone app so you can receive the Canadian Tire Money digitally, but it'll probably be years before they phase out the paper coupons.
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blt

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #52 on: 18 Apr 2017, 11:25 »

They're prevalent enough that some local small businesses will accept them at par; more than likely you'll end up going to Can Tire yourself at some point anyway.  You get them/can use them for gas too.

It's one of those businesses that's sort of entwined with the Canadian Identity.  Like Tim Hortons, or The Bay.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #53 on: 18 Apr 2017, 11:59 »

With the current exchange rate, Canadian Tire money is probably worth more than Canadian currency.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #54 on: 18 Apr 2017, 12:01 »

The most extreme temperature difference in a 24 hour period was on January 15, 1972 in Loma, Montana.

Temps went from -54 F (-47.8 C) to 49 F (9.4 C).

Oh please, Calgary does that on a weekly basis.
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Storel

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #55 on: 18 Apr 2017, 13:00 »

It's probably an accepted currency at Possum Lake.

Yes, I'm sure it is! Knowing Red Green, he has probably spent more Canadian Tire money in his lifetime than actual Canadian money...

Canadian Tire Money isn't without value.  I'd count it before I'd turn it down.  As others have said, it's like airline miles.  Would you trade services for airline miles, if you could trade the airline miles for something else later?
If I were Faye, I wouldn't automatically reject that offer of payment. Find out what the coupons are for first!

The problem is that Faye lives in Massachusetts, in the U.S. There are no Canadian Tire stores in the U.S., and having to travel to Canada to spend them would probably cost more in real money than the value of the coupons.
« Last Edit: 18 Apr 2017, 13:08 by Storel »
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #56 on: 18 Apr 2017, 13:34 »

If I were Faye, I wouldn't automatically reject that offer of payment. Find out what the coupons are for first!

The problem is that Faye lives in Massachusetts, in the U.S. There are no Canadian Tire stores in the U.S., and having to travel to Canada to spend them would probably cost more in real money than the value of the coupons.

Also, its Pintsize, and as we all know any dealing with Pintsize comes with the implied caveat of "You. Don't. MAKE DEALS WITH PINTSIZE!". Also, scrub your hands afterwards.
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jheartney

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #57 on: 18 Apr 2017, 13:46 »

Doesn't Pintsize already have a metal dick? Why would he need two?

(Shouldn't have asked that. BAD IMAGINATION, BAD. STOP SHOWING ME THAT. BAD!)
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #58 on: 18 Apr 2017, 14:31 »

Doesn't Pintsize already have a metal dick? Why would he need two?

(Shouldn't have asked that. BAD IMAGINATION, BAD. STOP SHOWING ME THAT. BAD!)

Well, there's a special spot reserved in hell, just for you. BECAUSE THAT MENTAL IMAGE IS STUCK IN MY HEAD!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #59 on: 18 Apr 2017, 16:08 »

I guess it's because oceans act as so-called "heat baths" - they dampen temperature changes. So the farther you're away from one ...
Generally this is true, but even here in the Harbour City we can get sudden changes. A southerly front is like a wave of cold air sweeping up the coast, and can drop the temperature 10-15 degrees Celsius in minutes:


Canadian Tire money? Is that something you use to purchase fatigue? :P
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Case

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #60 on: 18 Apr 2017, 17:37 »

Canadian Tire money? Is that something you use to purchase fatigue? :P

Yup. Currency for cokeheads. Lowers their Eigenfrequency, so they don't sink so fast when their vibrating melts the ice under their boots.

All true. :nods sagely:
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #61 on: 18 Apr 2017, 18:22 »

I wonder if they can be exchanged for Flavian Pobble Beads?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #62 on: 18 Apr 2017, 18:29 »

I wonder if they can be exchanged for Flavian Pobble Beads?

Whyever not? (Though I imagine that exchanging them into Triganic Ningis might prove challenging)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #63 on: 18 Apr 2017, 18:49 »

But then again, no-one has ever gathered the necessary eight Ningis to one Pugh
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #64 on: 18 Apr 2017, 20:43 »

Well, today's comic feels like Jeph has taken an 9-iron to our emotions.

Pretty heavy stuff.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #65 on: 18 Apr 2017, 20:46 »

I know how you feel, Faye. It was the same for me when I could no longer remember my wife's voice. No matter how much time passes, no matter who else I meet, her absence continues to a palpable thing. The thought of forgetting her all together is terrifying. Poor Bubbles.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #66 on: 18 Apr 2017, 20:46 »

The most extreme temperature difference in a 24 hour period was on January 15, 1972 in Loma, Montana.

Temps went from -54 F (-47.8 C) to 49 F (9.4 C).

Oh please, Calgary does that on a weekly basis.
How big do your hailstones get?

For those unfamiliar with the term, a softball is a type of sportsball equal in size to a large grapefruit.

We also had tornado watches last year on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #67 on: 18 Apr 2017, 21:03 »

The opposing squad not only had the appropriate EMP weapon, they knew precisely which tuning it needed to knock out Bubbles. How did they get this doubtless top secret information, which both ended the AI soidier program as well as only temporarily incapacitating Bubbles?

Can you spell C.R.E.E.P.Y.B.O.T? I knew you could!

Note how this little manipulation gets AIs out of human wars, while not hurting any AI physically. Also note that the psychological damage to Bubbles was the thing that made Creepybot break cover; guilt perhaps?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #68 on: 18 Apr 2017, 22:13 »

I can't imagine what it would be like to watch paralyzed as people I was dedicated to protecting got torn apart by artillery.

I pray I never develop the ability to imagine it.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #69 on: 18 Apr 2017, 22:57 »

...are they still not a couple?  I don't think I can tell anymore...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #70 on: 18 Apr 2017, 23:31 »

Ow.  My feels.  I'm glad Bubbles has someone she's comfortable enough with to talk about it, and who can in a small way understand what Bubbles lost with CorpseWitch's destruction of her memories.  It's not the same, but it's similar enough to give Faye a bit of insight into just how much Bubbles lost.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #71 on: 18 Apr 2017, 23:33 »

...are they still not a couple?  I don't think I can tell anymore...

They are something rarer and more worthy of celebration, close friends.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #72 on: 18 Apr 2017, 23:41 »

Jeph had to tell the story eventually and I suppose that the only complaint that I have about this strip is that it fails in context: There was no particular reason why Faye should bring it up or that Bubbles should feel like responding. What I'm saying is that this would have worked a lot better in the immediate aftermath of the revelation about Bubbles's memory.

That quibble aside, I think that this story makes a lot of sense. Like others, I'm also sure that there is a deeper issue here. The likelihood of the other side just guessing the right frequency to take out Bubbles is as close to zero as you can get. The only explanations that make sense are:
  • Espionage;
  • Treason.
I'm genuinely wonder if someone wanted the AIs out of the battlefield for reasons that were not entirely noble and didn't care who would get killed to achieve that end. I've got the feeling that there is some fat [EXPLETIVE CENSORED] in the DoD, State Department or Congress who even now regards this crime as one of their great personal achievements for the 'greater good' of humanity or possibly for their vile version of religion.

That aside, the way Jeph drew Faye in Panel 6 is genuinely beautiful. He really has gotten a lot better at body language and Faye's says a thousand words about how desperately she wants to help heal Bubbles and very precious her huge friend has become to her.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #73 on: 18 Apr 2017, 23:44 »

...are they still not a couple?  I don't think I can tell anymore...

They are something rarer and more worthy of celebration, close friends.

Ships come and go, but true friendship is for ever.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #74 on: 18 Apr 2017, 23:50 »

Jeph had to tell the story eventually and I suppose that the only complaint that I have about this strip is that it fails in context: There was no particular reason why Faye should bring it up or that Bubbles should feel like responding. What I'm saying is that this would have worked a lot better in the immediate aftermath of the revelation about Bubbles's memory.

I prefer it here, as part of the process of Faye and Bubbles strengthening their trust in each other.

Quote
The likelihood of the other side just guessing the right frequency to take out Bubbles is as close to zero as you can get.

Or the weapon scans the frequency spectrum, and the pulse has plenty of harmonics so it covers multiple octaves.  The range to be scanned could be inferred from the current state of general technology.  A bigger concern is focussing the weapon to get sufficient intensity without taking out the user's own tech (even if not AI soldiers, they are hardly likely to be computer-free).
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #76 on: 19 Apr 2017, 00:56 »

The opposing squad not only had the appropriate EMP weapon, they knew precisely which tuning it needed to knock out Bubbles. How did they get this doubtless top secret information, which both ended the AI soidier program as well as only temporarily incapacitating Bubbles?

Can you spell C.R.E.E.P.Y.B.O.T? I knew you could!

They were the first thing I thought of, too.

Note how this little manipulation gets AIs out of human wars, while not hurting any AI physically.

The toll on the humans comprising the rest of Bubbles's squad was extremely high, though. While Creepybot does seem to have less concern about humans than AIs, they did make the effort to knock out all the humans in CoD without any lasting, or even minor, damage to any of them. Wiping out every human in the squad seems a tad harsh for someone with that much... consideration for lesser beings, shall we say?

Also note that the psychological damage to Bubbles was the thing that made Creepybot break cover; guilt perhaps?

Perhaps. Would have been nice if they'd considered the pyschological damage beforehand, if they did indeed cause it.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #77 on: 19 Apr 2017, 01:41 »

To the shippers who wanted to see bubbles out of her armour;

I think I prefer seeing her letting down her guard more.  Those are the chinks that a relationship will get through.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #78 on: 19 Apr 2017, 02:17 »

IMHO, memory is either construction or reconstruction. But it's never storage.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #79 on: 19 Apr 2017, 02:49 »

I wonder if they can be exchanged for Flavian Pobble Beads?

Whyever not? (Though I imagine that exchanging them into Triganic PUs might prove challenging)

Fixed that for ya!   :wink:

Ningis are Triangular (and Rubber - Tire connection!).
PUs are Triganic.   8-)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #80 on: 19 Apr 2017, 04:33 »

I know this is a serious moment and all, but I kinda want to see the bed crumple under bubbles' weight. She would not be light.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #81 on: 19 Apr 2017, 04:54 »

Holes.....

Worse, Antennae ...  :-D

]The likelihood of the other side just guessing the right frequency to take out Bubbles is as close to zero as you can get.

That's not how it works - EMP's are pulse weapons. 'Pulse' implies 'broadband signal', always. No need to "guess the frequencies" when your signal covers pretty much the entire accessible spectrum ...

For illustration: The common approximation for a pulse is a (normalized) Gaussian f(t)=A/Sqrt[2*pi*sigma]*Exp[-1/2*(t/sigma)^2] with A the intensity and sigma the pulse-width, and it's Fourier-transform - i.e. the spectrum of the pulse - is ... again a Gaussian Exp[omega]=A*Exp[-1/2*(t*sigma)^2], with the inverse width 1/sigma!  :-o  (In the math-prep courses in my Uni, I'd let 1st-semester Students make that calculation)

So bandwidth of the pulse goes roughly as the inverse of it's duration.




Or the weapon scans the frequency spectrum, and the pulse has plenty of harmonics so it covers multiple octaves.  The range to be scanned could be inferred from the current state of general technology.  A bigger concern is focussing the weapon to get sufficient intensity without taking out the user's own tech (even if not AI soldiers, they are hardly likely to be computer-free).

IMO, shielding Bubbles wouldn't be as hard as shielding static facilities, that have external high-wattage cabling from power-sources leading into them.

An EMP weapon would most likely not be a fission weapon, rather smth. like a pulsed microwave resonator - Nobody's going to detonate a nuke in LEO to take out an infantry platoon. A microwave pulse would mean somthing in the .3 - 300 GhZ, or 1mm-1m wavelength. Passive shielding could be achieved with a Farday-cage (of 'sufficient' thickness - I admit I have little idea what 'sufficient' would be) that has no aperture smaller than the wavelength of the incoming signal.

Covering Bubbles in a copper-mesh with holes smaller than 1mm would be the easy part - it could even cover her eyes, since EM-radiation in the visual range has wavelengths of several hundred nanometers (same as you can easily see through fly-gratings). Even a "Milanese plate EMP armor" wouldn't pose appreciable restrictions on Bubbles' mobility - humans figured out how to cover the human form in hardened steel with minimum restrictions on mobility in the 15th Century AD (If you search a bit on Youtube, there's a guy doing backflips in full plate armour, it's around 15-20kg).

AFAICS, The trickiest part would be any antennae she uses to scan the EM spectrum. Antennae are ... well, they kinda work at opposites to shielding, obviously. My ad-hoc idea would be to place the complete transceivers & A/D-converters outside the shielding, and lead the digitized signals through the mesh - no problem to fabricate shielded wiring thinner than 1mm.

Methinks the hard part would then be to isolate those leads from her insides, if necessary, or design the leads such that they burn through on their own in case of a current surge.
« Last Edit: 19 Apr 2017, 08:12 by Case »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #82 on: 19 Apr 2017, 06:25 »

IMHO, memory is either construction or reconstruction. But it's never storage.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #83 on: 19 Apr 2017, 07:06 »

Our memories are not recordings of what we experienced. They are the constantly evolving stories we tell ourselves about what we experienced.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #84 on: 19 Apr 2017, 07:17 »

Awww man....  :-o

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #85 on: 19 Apr 2017, 08:07 »

Do you really need to modulate EMPs?  I thought they were more of a one-size-fits-all burst of electromagnetism that just fried circuits by brute force.

Also this is dangerously close to hugging without a helmet.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #86 on: 19 Apr 2017, 08:15 »

A sharp high-energy pulse will be broad-spectrum in any case (a point I overlooked in my earlier post).  The comment on focussing stands though, and focussing a broad-spectrum pulse is much harder than focussing a single frequency.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #87 on: 19 Apr 2017, 08:36 »

Hang on though....

How can Bubbles remember the incident... but not remember what her colleagues looked like?
Her memories are files (as has been discussed) and said files were apparently wiped?

So how can Bubbles have a selective memory of what happened without seeing the people involved in that self-same incident?
Or, indeed, memories of them prior to said incident? We can't pretend to know how AIs memories work, but we've been given a brief run down throughout the last few months... and no explanation other than them being data files has been given.

So... How?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #88 on: 19 Apr 2017, 08:38 »

...are they still not a couple?  I don't think I can tell anymore...

They are something rarer and more worthy of celebration, close friends.

And here I thought you can only share deeply personal emotions and experiences with someone you've penetrated.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #89 on: 19 Apr 2017, 08:52 »

Hang on though....

How can Bubbles remember the incident... but not remember what her colleagues looked like?

She doesn't have to remember the incident to know what happened. An incident like that would have a record in the military's files. She would have given a report.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #90 on: 19 Apr 2017, 09:04 »

A sharp high-energy pulse will be broad-spectrum in any case (a point I overlooked in my earlier post).  The comment on focussing stands though, and focussing a broad-spectrum pulse is much harder than focussing a single frequency.

True - which is why I wouldn't make it handheld at all. Being sufficiently far away from the weapon when it goes off would be the way to protect yourself - smth. like an EMP-grenade. EM far-field goes with inverse square of the distance, but near-field effects are ... interesting.

Near-field means smth. like 0.16*wavelength - with a microwave pulse, wavelength can be anything from milimeters to roughly a meter.


Colleague of mine had an idea for EMP shielding: You'd want something with good electric conductivity and high thermal capacity/low thermal conductivity - what you can't change is the radiation energy Bubbles body reveives, which has to go somewhere. And electrical resistance means part of that energy is converted into heat.

Copper has good electric conductivity, but no high thermal capacity. Best would be smth. like a mesh of tubes filled with an electrolytic fluid.
« Last Edit: 19 Apr 2017, 09:25 by Case »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #91 on: 19 Apr 2017, 09:20 »

Hang on though....

How can Bubbles remember the incident... but not remember what her colleagues looked like?
Her memories are files (as has been discussed) and said files were apparently wiped?

So how can Bubbles have a selective memory of what happened without seeing the people involved in that self-same incident?
Or, indeed, memories of them prior to said incident? We can't pretend to know how AIs memories work, but we've been given a brief run down throughout the last few months... and no explanation other than them being data files has been given.

So... How?

How is it that people can remember the sound of a loved one's voice and yet unable to remember details of their face years after they have passed?
How is that we might remember with crystal clarity an embarrassing incident from decades ago, but forget the name of the person we were introduced to last month?
How is it that people can forget some memories after trauma but other obscure ones remain intact?

Memory is a funny and complex thing and though we think them to be the same as files, they aren't. A file can be deleted and later recovered near intact. A memory can be lost and though it's not always possible for it to come back, we are still left with the imprint of that memory, an echo as it were.

Bubbles might not be able to remember the faces of her squad or their time together, but there is still the imprint and echoes of that time.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #92 on: 19 Apr 2017, 09:26 »

I think there may be an assumption on the EMP thing.
Everyone assumes it is a broad band burst when it could  just as easily be a single fixed frequency burst.
More likely a high energy data burst that overrides the normal communication channel [external or internal] and injects code that triggers the chassis deactivation system.
Such would be built into any new hardware the brass does not trust not to be commandeered and turned against them.

The more I think about it and knowing just how dysfunctional the upper echelons are in real life, the more I believe that that functionality was always there in her chassis and that she was never made aware of that feature. I am speculating that there were AI bigots who saw the opportunity to nip the AI soldier thing in the bud and didn't mind eliminating a few AI lovers in the process. This can also explain why killbot is sitting alone gathering dust in a hanger somewhere.

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #93 on: 19 Apr 2017, 09:44 »

Memories are not stored locally, they are diffused throughout the brain and are strongly linked to emotions. It is possible to forget the factual content of an experience while retaining the emotional impact it had. Encountering similar events/circumstances can then trigger that emotional reaction without the person knowing the precise source. Memories are weird. My own are either a jumbled, discordant mess or absent all together. A huge chunk of my past is a complete blank due to trauma. Other swaths of memory are completely disjointed, broken free of temporal context.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #94 on: 19 Apr 2017, 09:50 »

Bubbles talked about the nature of AI memory once. It's something more complicated and harder to edit than files on a disk.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #95 on: 19 Apr 2017, 09:57 »

You mean I can't just ruin Pintsize's life by yelling "DROP TABLE horseporn;--" at him?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #96 on: 19 Apr 2017, 09:59 »

I think there may be an assumption on the EMP thing.
Everyone assumes it is a broad band burst when it could  just as easily be a single fixed frequency burst.

No - that's the mistake I made first time.  For maximum effect the burst must be as short as possible, to minimise the possibility of the target dissipating it as it arrives and thus cause maximum damage.  The shorter a pulse is, the further it gets from being a single frequency. 

Details here
Quote
As the height of the pulse becomes larger and its width becomes smaller, it approaches a Dirac delta function and the magnitude spectrum flattens out and becomes a constant of magnitude 1 in the limit.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #97 on: 19 Apr 2017, 10:02 »



Worse, Antennae ...  :-D


The papered-over holes in my heart are rough enough, don't poke them with your antennae  :psyduck:

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #98 on: 19 Apr 2017, 11:16 »

It might be that they found the sweet spot with the EMP (right frequency, right length, right amount of shielding) that it was effective on Bubbles.

I still buy the theory that it was a backdoor feature of some sort, and it deleted itself immediately after the pulse was delivered.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #99 on: 19 Apr 2017, 12:19 »

I guess it's because oceans act as so-called "heat baths" - they dampen temperature changes. So the farther you're away from one ...
Generally this is true, but even here in the Harbour City we can get sudden changes. A southerly front is like a wave of cold air sweeping up the coast, and can drop the temperature 10-15 degrees Celsius in minutes:


Canadian Tire money? Is that something you use to purchase fatigue? :P
For what it's worth, that picture isn't of an advancing cold front, but of a derecho (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derecho). The characteristic wall cloud of an approaching derecho looks very different from the typical horizontal bands carried by an advancing cold front.

A strong derecho like the one in your picture can be quite terrifying. A strong one can fly along at 60 mph (100 kph), driving hurricane-strength winds across a band many miles wide which can take half an hour to pass. A strong one will typically be accompanied by drenching rain, hail, and even tornadoes. Major derechos can last for hours; one last year appeared in the northwestern Ohio and persisted all the way east to Washington, D.C., a distance of several hundred miles.
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