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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)  (Read 42943 times)

Nepiophage

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #100 on: 21 Jun 2017, 13:14 »

What a lot of snowflakes you all are. In Claire's position, I would do just what she did; and in Marten's I would expect her to.
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neurocase

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #101 on: 21 Jun 2017, 14:15 »

What a lot of snowflakes you all are. In Claire's position, I would do just what she did; and in Marten's I would expect her to.

How does thinking it's a little bit shady on the face of it to want to dig up dirt on your partner's exes (in front of them, at that) make one a snowflake, exactly?
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #102 on: 21 Jun 2017, 14:17 »

Well, I've given up getting what that's supposed to achieve by this point.

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Buggman

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #103 on: 21 Jun 2017, 15:53 »

I actually like Claire as a character, even if she is a creator's pet and her relationship with Martin is over-idealized in some respects. Having said that, a lot of my continued sympathy and respect is going to ride on what she does next.

The fact that she gave Marten the stink-eye and the "R e A l L y?" treatment after a SINGLE stranger started flapping her gums galls me to no end. It's bad enough to see Martin on the receiving end of "the man is always wrong in a relationship" trope with Padma, when in fact Padma was being just as flaky (and no fault to her--it was crappy timing that got both of them).  But to see Claire of all people start playing the "jealous girlfriend" trope just to see him squirm?

No. Just no.

Marten has been completely selfless, loving, and supportive to her in a relationship that most men would find difficult to even conceive of having. He deserves FAR better from her than this rom-com BS.

Even if Claire ends up telling Renee to f*** off, if she doesn't realize what she's done wrong in today's strip and make things right with Marten, my sympathy for her as a character is going to take a massive dive. Maybe not a terminal dive, but a pretty severe hit nevertheless.
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War Sparrow

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #104 on: 21 Jun 2017, 15:56 »

Were Padma and Marten dating, or were they just sleeping together? I can't recall.
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Kugai

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #105 on: 21 Jun 2017, 16:22 »

I think it was a case of Marten on  the rebound after the break-up with Dora.  They did kinda date, and I get the sneaking suspicion that things might have gone further had Padma  not been leaving in the first place.
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truestatic

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #106 on: 21 Jun 2017, 16:25 »

Were Padma and Marten dating, or were they just sleeping together? I can't recall.
Their relationship was pretty casual, but they spent one-on-one time outside the bedroom.
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A Duck

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #107 on: 21 Jun 2017, 16:26 »

They slept together a few times, 3 at most, but it was clearly something that would have become a bigger thing if not for the circunstances.

They were getting some pretty strong feelings for each other, which made them both freak out, as Padma was about to leave for another state.
The whole situation made Padma freak out and disappear on Marten for almost 2 weeks, after she had postponed her leave.

The day before she left she decided to call Marten and ask to meet up. At this point he was fed up with the whole thing and said he was busy. Faye chewed him out for that.

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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #108 on: 21 Jun 2017, 16:51 »

Were Padma and Marten dating, or were they just sleeping together? I can't recall.

It was a fling. It was flung.
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neurocase

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #109 on: 21 Jun 2017, 16:57 »

Were Padma and Marten dating, or were they just sleeping together? I can't recall.

It was a fling. It was flung.
Flang, if you will.
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miados

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #110 on: 21 Jun 2017, 18:59 »

What a lot of snowflakes you all are. In Claire's position, I would do just what she did; and in Marten's I would expect her to.

as someone without much dating experience maybe it is just me but i would keep it in my back pocket and ask the likes of faye or hanners about it after this since I know them a lot better. I mean maybe im odd but i would pick to trust someone i knew for a while more than someone whose social interactions with me probably didn't even need a full hand to count them out.
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Sullivan

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #111 on: 21 Jun 2017, 19:06 »

It was a little odd that 2101 was written to basically lay the blame at Marten's feet.
It was written that way because Faye was doing most of the talking, telling Marten to not be so passive. And he was passive. Faye told him he don' wrong, and he accepted that. Faye laid the blame at Marten's feet.
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truestatic

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #112 on: 21 Jun 2017, 19:16 »

Oh good all the gnashing of teeth was for nothing. This is a nice page. It's good to see Claire come at it from a place of concern and honesty about her own feelings, and Marten respond to that. I'm happy with this resolution.

Even if am the tiniest bit upset we didn't actually get to find out what exactly Renee's second hand info was.

It was a little odd that 2101 was written to basically lay the blame at Marten's feet.
It was written that way because Faye was doing most of the talking, telling Marten to not be so passive. And he was passive. Faye told him he don' wrong, and he accepted that. Faye laid the blame at Marten's feet.
Jeph's own titling of and comments on 2099 and 2100 suggest that that's not just the characters playing their roles, Faye was calling them as Jeph saw them.
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AliceGroove

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #113 on: 21 Jun 2017, 19:39 »

Renee's turning out to be a wholly unlikable character (which is ok - some folks are, in fact, wholly unlikable). But Claire has been so well-wrought up to this point - her strengths, her insecurities, her good and bad habits - that it's a simple shame to see an over-the-top turn for her as some stereotypical jealous female s.o. (3508) ... even with the redemptive aspects of (3509). The whole Padma thing is done and done and done... it should (imho) just have been used to accentuate Renee's dastardly image... but to see it bound-back as some sort of modest relationship hiccup for Marten and Claire is just unappealing.

Sidenote - while I like the idea of happy couplings... I couldn't be more against one than Elliot/Renee... even if the big oaf has some sublimated feelings for her. That ship won't sail, Monsignor.
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comicalArchitect

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #114 on: 21 Jun 2017, 20:04 »

I actually like Claire as a character, even if she is a creator's pet and her relationship with Martin is over-idealized in some respects. Having said that, a lot of my continued sympathy and respect is going to ride on what she does next.

The fact that she gave Marten the stink-eye and the "R e A l L y?" treatment after a SINGLE stranger started flapping her gums galls me to no end. It's bad enough to see Martin on the receiving end of "the man is always wrong in a relationship" trope with Padma, when in fact Padma was being just as flaky (and no fault to her--it was crappy timing that got both of them).  But to see Claire of all people start playing the "jealous girlfriend" trope just to see him squirm?

No. Just no.

Marten has been completely selfless, loving, and supportive to her in a relationship that most men would find difficult to even conceive of having. He deserves FAR better from her than this rom-com BS.

Even if Claire ends up telling Renee to f*** off, if she doesn't realize what she's done wrong in today's strip and make things right with Marten, my sympathy for her as a character is going to take a massive dive. Maybe not a terminal dive, but a pretty severe hit nevertheless.

Bolded part irks me. You don't get cookies for treating a trans woman the same way you would a cis woman. Marten is not being some special ultra-tolerant angel by dating Claire. He's just NOT being a bigoted jerk. If you would otherwise date someone but won't because they're trans, you're a transphobe.
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Storel

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #115 on: 21 Jun 2017, 21:19 »

I actually like Claire as a character, even if she is a creator's pet and her relationship with Martin is over-idealized in some respects. Having said that, a lot of my continued sympathy and respect is going to ride on what she does next.

The fact that she gave Marten the stink-eye and the "R e A l L y?" treatment after a SINGLE stranger started flapping her gums galls me to no end. It's bad enough to see Martin on the receiving end of "the man is always wrong in a relationship" trope with Padma, when in fact Padma was being just as flaky (and no fault to her--it was crappy timing that got both of them).  But to see Claire of all people start playing the "jealous girlfriend" trope just to see him squirm?

No. Just no.

Marten has been completely selfless, loving, and supportive to her in a relationship that most men would find difficult to even conceive of having. He deserves FAR better from her than this rom-com BS.

Even if Claire ends up telling Renee to f*** off, if she doesn't realize what she's done wrong in today's strip and make things right with Marten, my sympathy for her as a character is going to take a massive dive. Maybe not a terminal dive, but a pretty severe hit nevertheless.

Bolded part irks me. You don't get cookies for treating a trans woman the same way you would a cis woman. Marten is not being some special ultra-tolerant angel by dating Claire. He's just NOT being a bigoted jerk. If you would otherwise date someone but won't because they're trans, you're a transphobe.

Well, perhaps Buggman honestly feels that most men are bigoted jerks? If so, then they're just giving Marten well-deserved credit for not being one.
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neurocase

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #116 on: 21 Jun 2017, 21:28 »

Claire was speeding down Asshole Highway, but suddenly banked off at the Insecurity exit instead. And apparently she also spoke to Dora? I'm glad to see a resolution to this, but I definitely feel like we jumped a column.
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danuis

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #117 on: 21 Jun 2017, 21:32 »

I'm a bit confused... Padma and Marten had a weird ending? I thought it was just "Oh, I gotta go west, this was fun!".
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Dandi Andi

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #118 on: 21 Jun 2017, 21:51 »

Bolded part irks me. You don't get cookies for treating a trans woman the same way you would a cis woman. Marten is not being some special ultra-tolerant angel by dating Claire. He's just NOT being a bigoted jerk. If you would otherwise date someone but won't because they're trans, you're a transphobe.

Hear! Hear! Treating trans women like women doesn't make you a hero any more than not drowning puppies or not getting a swastika tattooed on your forehead. That's pretty much the entry level for being a decent person.
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #119 on: 21 Jun 2017, 22:15 »

Any chance Claire was putting on an act to tease Marten? She should have resisted the temptation, agreed, but I can see her side too.

She could also be insecure. We've seen her jump to conclusions about relationships before.

(Hey, I can get to be a pedant by distinguishing between a pedant and a pendant).
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truestatic

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #120 on: 21 Jun 2017, 22:31 »

I'm a bit confused... Padma and Marten had a weird ending? I thought it was just "Oh, I gotta go west, this was fun!".
Oh the weirdest. She was like "maybe I'll hang around a few weeks longer" and he was like "Yippee!" and then she was like "oh man I'm catching feels hardcore and now I'm leaving what a bummer" and he was like "lol it couldn't have happened at any other time i used to be a dick" and then she was like "I'm delaying our date. cancelling our date. not returning your calls." and then he was like " :-(" and then she was like "hey I've been too busy to tell you I've been too busy, and now I'm leaving earlier than I thought rather than later, actually. Like tomorrow. you wanna bang one last time or..." and then he was like "pass.  :meh:" She ghosted him and he was hurt by it, and then he almost certainly hurt her back when she tried to reconnect before she left.

Not a great scene.

Any chance Claire was putting on an act to tease Marten? She should have resisted the temptation, agreed, but I can see her side too.

She could also be insecure. We've seen her jump to conclusions about relationships before.

(Hey, I can get to be a pedant by distinguishing between a pedant and a pendant).
I definitely read teasing as being at least part of the motivation here, but I think she was also very interested in finding out what she could about this chapter of his life that he evidently hasn't been very open about with her. That sort of teasing seems normal to me, and the curiousity seems healthy.
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brasca

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #121 on: 21 Jun 2017, 22:56 »

Teasing is fine, but fishing for information in a way that will make your boyfriend feel uncomfortable can cause friction.  At least Claire wasn't doing this behind Marten's back and she has insecurities as an excuse.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #122 on: 21 Jun 2017, 23:13 »

Claire was speeding down Asshole Highway, but suddenly banked off at the Insecurity exit instead. And apparently she also spoke to Dora? I'm glad to see a resolution to this, but I definitely feel like we jumped a column.

And we got to be shown two normal, imperfect characters, rather than the improbably perfect couple that they have largely been depicted as up till now.  Good job, Jeph!
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #123 on: 21 Jun 2017, 23:20 »

I just want to point out here that this is not a 'happy ending'. Claire has ripped a band-aid off of a very, very big wound in Marten's past. I think that he was genuinely troubled by how things went with Padma and, if Lt. Porter, the security chief on the space station, hadn't called him out on it, I think he would have kept running from it for some time. Having his current girlfriend probing with a relative stranger about it probably was very upsetting and it will likely take him a while to recover his balance.

It is also not a 'happy ending' in that we also see Claire has never got over her betrayal complex that her father's behaviour planted in her psyche. No matter how much she tries to fight it down, there is still, still a part of her that is expecting betrayal from Marten and she can't shut it up no matter how hard she tries. In this, talking to Dora could be a good thing and it could be a bad thing. Dora could have talked about how she's had to fight and ultimately overcome her own insecurities to make her relationship with Tai work, which could give Claire hope. Alternately, she could just frame it as a flaw in Marten's personality: "Oh, he can't handle women with insecurities!" This would only make Claire feel worse.

For what it's worth, it says a lot about Marten and their relationship was that it was his first instinct to comfort Claire. It (unfortunately) says a lot about Claire's emotional troubles that panel 4 really clearly suggests that she's surprised that he did so.

It's kind of weird, and horrible, how these demons in your past can come chasing out of the dark with little or no warning and start tearing at your current life and relationships.

Y'know, people here and especially on the Subreddit accuse the Marten/Claire relationship of being 'too perfect'. I hope that this mini-arc settles this. They both have their demons and flaws; these past two strips remind us that, if they didn't keep working to maintain their relationship, these flaws would probably tear them apart very painfully.
« Last Edit: 21 Jun 2017, 23:38 by BenRG »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #124 on: 21 Jun 2017, 23:34 »

The first panel gave me chilling visions of the breakup.

...I kind of hope this ends in Claire getting Padma's number.  Although that would mean humanizing tech bros.
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Mr. Doctor

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #125 on: 21 Jun 2017, 23:34 »

Huh, So Renee did run off her mouth with just second-hand info. Claire did leave Marten behind to stay and listen to the whole thing... And Marten did get out of there without telling his side of the story and once again looking like the one who's at fault.

Man, way to be disappointed with all characters in just a couple of days. Not surprised with Renee though, she has always been terrible.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #126 on: 22 Jun 2017, 00:05 »

If you would otherwise date someone but won't because they're trans, you're a transphobe.

Transphobia begins and ends with hatred or bigotry of transgendered people. You cannot call someone transphobic because they choose not to date trans people. Applying the same logic, every straight person is homophobic for refusing to date a gay member of their sex lmao.

I didn't know my support of my trans friends was voided because I wouldn't sleep with them.
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gopher

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #127 on: 22 Jun 2017, 00:08 »

Good to see Marten has learned not to admit that he still has any feelings for exes. A little white lie can save a lot of grief.
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sitnspin

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #128 on: 22 Jun 2017, 00:40 »

If you would otherwise date someone but won't because they're trans, you're a transphobe.

Transphobia begins and ends with hatred or bigotry of transgendered people. You cannot call someone transphobic because they choose not to date trans people. Applying the same logic, every straight person is homophobic for refusing to date a gay member of their sex lmao.

I didn't know my support of my trans friends was voided because I wouldn't sleep with them.
If you treat trans people differently than you do cispeople based solely on them being trans, then yes you are transphobic. "But I have friends who are trans" is not a get out of jail free card.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #129 on: 22 Jun 2017, 02:30 »

I see the "If you don't agree with me 100 percent, that's the same as an attack" beast is rearing its head in here. At least, I think that's its head.
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Case

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #130 on: 22 Jun 2017, 02:36 »

Naw, at worst, that's the "we take care of our own" guard-dog ...

... though I admit to thinking it might be time someone took the new person aside for a friendly private chat/PM re. certain forum guidelines & a pat on the back.


(my 2 cents, anyhow, not that they're in any way or form special or relevant)



P.S.: Yes, there's a difference between (privately) kindly rejecting an offer made to you in private by a gay person/friend because you happen to be straight, and publicly offering to the world at large, apropos hardly anything at all, a detailed treatise as to why (and/or how accepting the offer would supposedly would make you feel).

Personally, the only person I've ever seen do the latter is one of my hometown's most notorious brawlers & member of the nastier parts of the German alt-right. He'd seen a cute gay couple kissing and felt his manhood was being impugned. Or something.
« Last Edit: 22 Jun 2017, 03:01 by Case »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #131 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:02 »

Any chance Claire was putting on an act to tease Marten? She should have resisted the temptation, agreed, but I can see her side too.

She could also be insecure. We've seen her jump to conclusions about relationships before.

(Hey, I can get to be a pedant by distinguishing between a pedant and a pendant).

I thought you said Pennant!?




 :evil:
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #132 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:05 »

Someone seems to have a penchant ...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #133 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:08 »

Teasing is fine, but fishing for information in a way that will make your boyfriend feel uncomfortable can cause friction.  At least Claire wasn't doing this behind Marten's back and she has insecurities as an excuse.

But she did do it behind his back.

She spoke to Dora...

That is possibly the beginning of a VERY slippery slope.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #134 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:19 »

Dora gave a rubbish answer. Dora had insecurities: Marten put up with them for ages and tried to get her through it, the final straw was actually her ignoring his request not to look through his porn. She was then the one to end it.

But that's actually true to life, most people look back at their past histories with rose tinted spectacles.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #135 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:20 »

So it's not okay for someone to have sexual preferences, or to be warmly attached to a group without wanting to sleep with them?
This implies that trans people are of a different group than other people of their gender. If you are attracted to a particular gender and reject whole cloth the very idea of dating someone in that gender group solely on the fact that they are trans, even though you find the physically and emotionally attractive, then yea, I'd say that strongly suggests a level of bigotry. Not all bigotry is blatant hatred.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #136 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:24 »

I stand by my opinion that Marten is the more insecure one here. He needs to learn to simply reassure instead of freaking out like this. I mean, I can understand why he does given his past. But the more he freaks out, the less liable Claire will be to express any minor insecurities that do come up (which are only human, lets face it). That is how minor insecurities can grow into major ones.

Someone seems to have a penchant ...

Case, you are such a peasant.
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USS Martenclaire

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #137 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:28 »

If you would otherwise date someone but won't because they're trans, you're a transphobe.

Transphobia begins and ends with hatred or bigotry of transgendered people. You cannot call someone transphobic because they choose not to date trans people. Applying the same logic, every straight person is homophobic for refusing to date a gay member of their sex lmao.

I didn't know my support of my trans friends was voided because I wouldn't sleep with them.
If you treat trans people differently than you do cispeople based solely on them being trans, then yes you are transphobic. "But I have friends who are trans" is not a get out of jail free card.

I deleted my original post as it was rather combative and not very helpful. The thing is, in this context, gender identity is irrelevant. Because it's not about the person being trans, lesbian, gay, redhead, tall, large or anything like that - it's about who *you* are attracted to. Your personal preferences - possibly the most personal and intimate preferences you can have. As such, its a core part of who you are. Having someone dictate who you can and can't be attracted to (with obvious exceptions) can be just as oppressive as having someone dictate your gender identity.
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swapna

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #138 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:29 »

What the shit, Claire.  "Moments like this"? You mean when you left your boyfriend to sit on his own while you dug up dirt about his past (painful) relationship/breakup he does not want to talk about?

And Marten stayed and waited for her, and then was open about his feelings and reassured her?

.... yeah, I can see how "Moments like this" might trigger insecurities.

Regarding the transphopic debate: not dating someone because they're Trans is just as well a reason as not dating them because they have brown eyes or because you don't like their voice or because you don't want kids and they do. Seriously, people's dating preferences are their own. Implying that Trans people are less date-able because they're Trans, however, is transphopic.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #139 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:39 »

Someone seems to have a penchant ...

Case, you are such a peasant.

A pleasant peasant, messire ...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #140 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:44 »

I stand by my opinion that Marten is the more insecure one here. He needs to learn to simply reassure instead of freaking out like this. I mean, I can understand why he does given his past. But the more he freaks out, the less liable Claire will be to express any minor insecurities that do come up (which are only human, lets face it). That is how minor insecurities can grow into major ones.

Someone seems to have a penchant ...

Case, you are such a peasant.

Well, that's not very pleasant

Dammit.. Ninja'd !
...like a pheasant...

(Wut!?)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #141 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:47 »

Um ... hello! I'm new here. I've been following the comic for a good number of years now and have lately been lurking a bit in the forums, and now the urge to join the discussion became too great to resist. I know this forum holds a high standard of conduct, so I apologise in advance if I mess up!

As for what prompted me to chime in, it's that there was a part of today's comic that seems to haven't been remarked upon yet (until dawolf just did while I was writing this post, which I am now too lazy to majorly reword :P ): According to Claire, Dora said that Marten isn't good at dealing with insecurity. Now, there are several ways to read that, and Marten himself doesn't seem to think much of it, even being able to jokingly poke at Claire for it in the last panel - and nobody in here has mentioned it, either (until dawolf just now), so maybe it's really just me, but ... isn't that kind of a really unfair depiction of how it went down between Dora and Marten? I feel like that phrasing suggests on some level that it was Marten's failing that he wasn't accepting enough of Dora's insecurities, when it was my impression that everyone in the comic, even Dora herself, seemed to agree that her behaviour had been unfair. Heck, she was the one who chose to end it, based on that. I know relationships and their failings are often too complex to entirely lay the blame at any one person's feet, but I think what struck me was that I believe this is the first time I've seen Marten criticised for his handling of the situation. Sure, he was less graceful in certain moments than in others, but overall I think he's been pretty good at alleviating insecurities in his partners - both Dora and now Claire. I don't know, it just feels kind of like a slap in the face to say Marten is bad at handling insecurity - especially for Dora, of all people.

But yeah, I might just be reading way too much into it in the worst possible way. We don't even know specifically what Dora told Claire versus what Claire took from it versus how she expresses it to Marten here. Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #142 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:47 »

If you would otherwise date someone but won't because they're trans, you're a transphobe.

Transphobia begins and ends with hatred or bigotry of transgendered people. You cannot call someone transphobic because they choose not to date trans people. Applying the same logic, every straight person is homophobic for refusing to date a gay member of their sex lmao.

I didn't know my support of my trans friends was voided because I wouldn't sleep with them.
If you treat trans people differently than you do cispeople based solely on them being trans, then yes you are transphobic. "But I have friends who are trans" is not a get out of jail free card.

I deleted my original post as it was rather combative and not very helpful. The thing is, in this context, gender identity is irrelevant. Because it's not about the person being trans, lesbian, gay, redhead, tall, large or anything like that - it's about who *you* are attracted to. Your personal preferences - possibly the most personal and intimate preferences you can have. As such, its a core part of who you are. Having someone dictate who you can and can't be attracted to (with obvious exceptions) can be just as oppressive as having someone dictate your gender identity.

I think the issue is different. If I'm not attracted to someone and they happen to be trans, it's not an issue. If I'm attracted to someone and then they turn out to be trans, and that impacts my view of the person's being a viable love/sexual/romantic interest, that DOES speak of a level of bigotry. And flat-out not being attracted to trans people (or rather, claiming so) seems kinda similar to the latter, not to the former.

It's a subtle distinction, but I *do* think it's functionally different if one happens to not be attracted to a lot of trans people, and if one claims to just flat-out "not be attracted to trans people". The latter implies that the person is put off by the fact that someone is trans, rather than by something about their appearance. And there's about as much variation in how trans people look, I'd imagine, as there is for cis people, so "I'm not attracted to them at all" carries a strong undertone of bigotry, in my view.

To put it another way - I tend to be attracted to women with a very light skin tone, blonde or red hair, freckled skin. I don't think it's bigoted per se, the fact that I'm less likely to be attracted to a woman with a very dark skin tone is a matter of preference*. But if I said "I'm just not attracted to women of African ethnic origin", that'd be superficially similar, but profoundly different. And yes, it'd be a pretty racist attitude. Not the most horrible kind of racism out there, but an attitude does not have to be the worst thing in the world to be problematic.

*although it probably is, on some level, racially biased, seeing as my preferences have been influenced by certain standards of beauty, and those can be fairly racist. But let's not split hairs.
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MrNumbers

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #143 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:49 »

Sees #3509

Good.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #144 on: 22 Jun 2017, 04:09 »

I think I can see what folks are getting at and I agree that if you're attracted to someone and then reject them because they're trans, then it is a discriminatory view to have. Its sad in a way though. Like....your body is attracted but because of hang ups, worries what other people think and all that negative stuff, you deny ypurself a possible chance at happiness. Rejecting someone because they're trans says a lot more negative things about you than it does the trans person.

TL;DR - I understand where the posters above me were coming from, I agree with them, sorry for the confusion. >.>
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #145 on: 22 Jun 2017, 04:15 »

Someone seems to have a penchant ...
Case, you are such a peasant.
Well, that's not very pleasant

Dammit.. Ninja'd !
...like a pheasant...

Oh that's just cold, turkey ...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #146 on: 22 Jun 2017, 04:37 »

To be serious for a moment...

I don't, think anyone has suggested "praising Marten to the skies" because he happens to be 'in love with a trans woman'.

But, does that mean he should perhaps be at least lauded for doing so?
In a perfect world.. of course not...
But here... on this planet? Well... socially... internally... and in one's own mind... yes.

NOT because trans people are anything other than people, but because if not for people like Marten, then trans folk would still be sidelined and viewed as "other" by the VAST majority of the populace. This is not a belittlement of trans-folk, it most certainly is not trans-phobia, it is a simple reflection of the FACT that at this point in time trans-folk are still viewed as ... 'unusual'... by those whom society at the moment deems as 'normal'.

And the sad fact is, that such behaviour at this point in our evolution can certainly be viewed as *brave*.

NOT because he is dating someone who was born with the wrong genitalia for themselves, but purely because of the number of outspoken bigoted cretins out there, who would take GREAT delight in trying to tear apart Marten's "manhood" or questioning his sexual identity, or even physically assault him because of it.
IS that brave? Actually, yeah... it is in my book.

All of which  can, sadly, lead to the end of said relationships - either because "Marten" can't take the constant bullying about it... or "Claire" can't stand to see them being hurt 'because of me!'

I gotta say, I get a bit WTF when these sort of debates arise. The worse one I think was the whole safety pin fiasco when people were actively attacking people with the pin on show on social media as *not doing enough*... failing to notice (or even concede) that doing SOMETHING is better than doing nothing, that a show of support lets the people affected know they are NOT as isolated as they may think.

Slightly related to this... I just get miffed at the militancy of certain sections who attack all and sundry if they do not walk the same path as those same militants...
Use that same debate for religion and I think we all know where that leads.

In essence... if someone is supporting your cause, don't be a dick and rat on them for not supporting your cause *enough*, because all that will do is turn them away from you. Maybe better aim your anger at those who are actively, openly and joyfully attacking you?

...just a thought.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #147 on: 22 Jun 2017, 04:45 »

According to Claire, Dora said that Marten isn't good at dealing with insecurity. Now, there are several ways to read that, and Marten himself doesn't seem to think much of it, even being able to jokingly poke at Claire for it in the last panel - and nobody in here has mentioned it, either (until dawolf just now), so maybe it's really just me, but ... isn't that kind of a really unfair depiction of how it went down between Dora and Marten? I feel like that phrasing suggests on some level that it was Marten's failing that he wasn't accepting enough of Dora's insecurities, when it was my impression that everyone in the comic, even Dora herself, seemed to agree that her behaviour had been unfair. Heck, she was the one who chose to end it, based on that. I know relationships and their failings are often too complex to entirely lay the blame at any one person's feet, but I think what struck me was that I believe this is the first time I've seen Marten criticised for his handling of the situation. Sure, he was less graceful in certain moments than in others, but overall I think he's been pretty good at alleviating insecurities in his partners - both Dora and now Claire. I don't know, it just feels kind of like a slap in the face to say Marten is bad at handling insecurity - especially for Dora, of all people.

But yeah, I might just be reading way too much into it in the worst possible way. We don't even know specifically what Dora told Claire versus what Claire took from it versus how she expresses it to Marten here. Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

Welcome, new person!

If Dora did express that opinion... my immediate reaction is to wonder whether this opinion was formed, not on her own, but during discussion with her therapist.

There are two sides to every relationship difficulty, and yes, Dora was very insecure, but it's not an unfair observation to make, IMO, that Marten did not (and does not) handle insecurity well. Considering how well balanced Marten normally is, this is one of the very few scenarios that Marten fails to handle with equanimity (the other one that comes to mind being his mother expressing her sexuality).

Considering Marten's sure handling of his and Claire's relationship in all other respects, his loss of balance here is notable.

Warning - while you were typing a new novel has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Argh.  :wink:

Actually, you know, to take what you've said a little further, I don't think that anyone suggested Marten should be "praised to the skies" for anything. As I recall, the wording was "he doesn't deserve this rom-com BS." That's not the same thing, you know, as "lauding to the skies" or even giving him a cookie.

Having said that, every relationship has its occasional troubled waters. It's a part of the package. So I don't completely agree with the original statement anyway. This isn't really rom-com BS is it? It's just life.
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Yet the lies of Melkor, the mighty and the accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. (Silmarillion 255)

JoeCovenant

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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #148 on: 22 Jun 2017, 04:48 »


Warning - while you were typing a new novel has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Argh.  :wink:


 :roll:

Shurrup!!!  :)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3506 to 3510 (19 June to 23 June 2017)
« Reply #149 on: 22 Jun 2017, 04:50 »

Someone seems to have a penchant ...
Case, you are such a peasant.
Well, that's not very pleasant

Dammit.. Ninja'd !
...like a pheasant...

Oh that's just cold, turkey ...

I know... maybe I should just stop posting and go back to being lurkey
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Covenant
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