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Momo

May

Bubbles

Faye

Pintsize

Station

Spookybot

Spathe Ham and Waffles

Purple Monkey Dishwashers

Mods, help me!

[MrNumbers]

Wow, this has been a busy week. I looked back three days ago and there was only two pages of discussion.

Pretty productive stuff in here.

[Cornelius]

hmm interesting thought but bubbles didn't recognize winslow until he said it was him so I am not sure some auto I know you function is there. plus when momo got a new body he didn't know she wasnt in the old chasis until he hooked up a connector to her old body and saw it was empty. Although it could be a matter of hardware limitations.

To be honest, I thought he was just connecting to check if they're wasn't any malfunction, that rendered her unresponsive.

It's just an idea, based on a sample of one. It's the only example I can think of, that cannot be explained differently. I prefer to give Momo the benefit of doubt, and not assume she just hacked into someone else's connection.

It might be hardware related. Or it might be part of her social protocols.

Now even if it is possible, I think it still makes sense for an AI with a new chassis, especially an anthropoform one, to go around to introduce himself. It's part of the humanlike, non-threatening behaviour, that plays a large part in reading a physical book.

[Cornelius]

Alright, so one thing this comic makes clear, is that Winslow does not have any money of his own.

Also, great to see him motivating wanting to help, not just from May's reaction.

[pwhodges]

great to see him motivating wanting to help, not just from May's reaction.

Hopefully May will have the opportunity to realise that when she's calmed down.  Maybe he'll even end up in an AI charity and helping May (and acknowledging her reaction, at that)!

[Magniras]

"Because I didn't think about how my privilege affects other people."

That right there, I think, is my entire issue with the concept of privilege.  Other people can use it to attack you, and all you can do to fight back is try and make yourself look like a victim of society.

And Winslow, buddy, no, don't do this.  I mean, do volunteer if you want to, but you've got to do it for yourself.  Otherwise you'll just break down under all the pressure, and you won't do anyone any good.

[Mr. Doctor]

^^ That is the same problem I have with the concept in general. It's a great thing to understand and use your privileges for the greater good... But when people use it as a means to attack you in an argument where it's uncalled for then I just won't bother anymore (like with May here).

[Cornelius]

^^ That is the same problem I have with the concept in general. It's a great thing to understand and use your privileges for the greater good... But when people use it as a means to attack you in an argument where it's uncalled for then I just won't bother anymore (like with May here).

What's more, when people do attack you for your privilege, it is most often for the privilege they think you have. It's very much about perception. And once the argument has been used, there's no longer a possibility to have a rational, reasonable discussion. When privilege is invoked in an argument, mostly it means that the opinion of the "privileged" person will from thenceforth be ignored as irrelevant and hurtful. And that is a problem.

[Shjade]

And once the argument has been used, there's no longer a possibility to have a rational, reasonable discussion. When privilege is invoked in an argument, mostly it means that the opinion of the "privileged" person will from thenceforth be ignored as irrelevant and hurtful. And that is a problem.

That's not how this works.

If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.

If you can't have a reasonable discussion with anyone who brings up privilege, guess who's the common denominator there?

[Cornelius]

And once the argument has been used, there's no longer a possibility to have a rational, reasonable discussion. When privilege is invoked in an argument, mostly it means that the opinion of the "privileged" person will from thenceforth be ignored as irrelevant and hurtful. And that is a problem.

That's not how this works.

If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.

If you can't have a reasonable discussion with anyone who brings up privilege, guess who's the common denominator there?

Fair enough. I should have made clear that it is not anyone. However, a majority of those who did, in my experience, did use it just to invalidate your opinion. In practice, it is often used as just an ad hominem argument.

[neurocase]

Yeah, the whole concept of "you belong to {x} social/racial/sexual/age range/pay scale group, so you have ALL THIS PRIVILEGE" is by and large a completely bullshit concept. Not least of all because it's very rarely true, but because the people who point the finger and cry PRIVILEGE feel totally justified in a lack of personal responsibility because it's the fault system and all these terrible privileged people walking around. Anecdotal, but a lot of the people I've met and known who are quick to pull the trigger on calling others privileged are often in negative social/economic/financial situations that they actually could fix themselves, but thanks to the popularity of the Oppression Olympics that seems to be everywhere online these days, they feel completely absolved of any personal mistakes or wrongdoing that might have put them there, because they can instead lay blame everywhere else.

Yes, the US prison system is absolute crap, and prisoner rehabilitation is practically non-existent. Does May deserve to be in a falling apart lemon of a chassis and working a dead end job? Not really. Did she put herself there? Yes, absolutely. She consciously chose to commit a crime in pursuit of her own ends. Any loss of "privilege" she's suffered compared to Winslow is entirely by her own hand. That's not bias, that's not "criminalizing" her. That's a straight up fact. The prison system is a wreck, but May is still the one who put herself there. If she was wrongfully accused/imprisoned, fine. But there's a far cry between a simple mistake, and willful subversion of the law for personal gain.

[KnightRider007]

Yeah, that definition of 'privilege', and that USE of 'privilege' has always pissed me off. "You have privilege because you're white!" No. 'Privilege' is not some nebulous thing granted by your skin color. It's a concrete advantage, financial and social that *tends to correlate* with race, *on average*. You can't say "You have privilege because you're white", it's "If you're white, you're *more likely to be privileged*". You can't apply population averages to individuals.

[brightwings00]

Yes, the US prison system is absolute crap, and prisoner rehabilitation is practically non-existent. Does May deserve to be in a falling apart lemon of a chassis and working a dead end job? Not really. Did she put herself there? Yes, absolutely. She consciously chose to commit a crime in pursuit of her own ends. Any loss of "privilege" she's suffered compared to Winslow is entirely by her own hand. That's not bias, that's not "criminalizing" her. That's a straight up fact. The prison system is a wreck, but May is still the one who put herself there. If she was wrongfully accused/imprisoned, fine. But there's a far cry between a simple mistake, and willful subversion of the law for personal gain.

But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished. At what point is she allowed to be mad about her circumstances? Because that's part of a normal life--being pissed off because you have a crappy job, or a crappy home--and if she can't be mad about anything in her life without being constantly reminded that "well, it's your fault, so up yours", that is a psychological nightmare waiting to happen.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think she should've bitten his head off the way she did. Winslow was being insensitive, but he wasn't being deliberately dickish. But May's allowed to be pissed off, and hurt, and uncomfortable, because she's a human being worthy of respect. Not some sort of horrible monster.

[brightwings00]

Yeah, that definition of 'privilege', and that USE of 'privilege' has always pissed me off. "You have privilege because you're white!" No. 'Privilege' is not some nebulous thing granted by your skin color. It's a concrete advantage, financial and social that *tends to correlate* with race, *on average*. You can't say "You have privilege because you're white", it's "If you're white, you're *more likely to be privileged*". You can't apply population averages to individuals.

Intersectionality is a thing.

If you're a white person in a wheelchair, you still benefit from being white. You just don't benefit from being able-bodied. There's a whole bunch of different forces at work, and it's silly to pretend that white women, for instance, don't have it better than black women, or a gay person with a disability has the exact same circumstances as a straight person with a disability.

[Cornelius]

But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished.

She is still on parole, unless somewhere off screen she did finish her time. The wiki suggests - not as canon as the comic, I know - that her current chassis may be the equivalent of an ankle bracelet for parolees.
Aside from that, yes, she's allowed her emotions, and she's worthy of respect, like anyone else. But like anyone else, she also needs to consider the feelings of other people. I suspect that that may be part of the rationale behind the virtual companionship program she participated in; a first step to rehabilitation and reintroduction to society.

Question; if we look at panel three; how often do you suppose Hannelore has been put in that position? She has become more confident and able to deal with the world, that is certain.

Also, on the following panel, I think it's nice how she is reassuring him, for a change.

Intersectionality is a thing.

If you're a white person in a wheelchair, you still benefit from being white. You just don't benefit from being able-bodied. There's a whole bunch of different forces at work, and it's silly to pretend that white women, for instance, don't have it better than black women, or a gay person with a disability has the exact same circumstances as a straight person with a disability.

I agree, there are benefits, and as such, privilege is a thing. However, the argument that because you believe your interlocutor profits from a certain privilege, therefore their opinion is not worth hearing, and their feelings are invalid, is a very ugly argument. Helping each other understand their mutual bias, and working towards a solution is much more productive. Sadly, and again, in my experience, that is very seldomly the route taken.

[swapna]

Yeah, that definition of 'privilege', and that USE of 'privilege' has always pissed me off. "You have privilege because you're white!" No. 'Privilege' is not some nebulous thing granted by your skin color. It's a concrete advantage, financial and social that *tends to correlate* with race, *on average*. You can't say "You have privilege because you're white", it's "If you're white, you're *more likely to be privileged*". You can't apply population averages to individuals.

Sometimes, privilege is the absence of something - say, harassment. It's hard to perceive by people who do have the advantage; and often it's hilariously frustrating to explain it to them.

[ChipNoir]

Yeah, that definition of 'privilege', and that USE of 'privilege' has always pissed me off. "You have privilege because you're white!" No. 'Privilege' is not some nebulous thing granted by your skin color. It's a concrete advantage, financial and social that *tends to correlate* with race, *on average*. You can't say "You have privilege because you're white", it's "If you're white, you're *more likely to be privileged*". You can't apply population averages to individuals.

Sometimes, privilege is the absence of something - say, harassment. It's hard to perceive by people who do have the advantage; and often it's hilariously frustrating to explain it to them.

Yeah. As one of the only three white people in the Detroit neighborhood I lived in for a season, I had the distinction of being the 90% safest person there after my dad, who I was living with at the time. A young group of black guys actually crossed the street to avoid him, lest any trouble from law enforcement remotely start and rain holy hell down on them and the rest of the neighborhood.

That's privilege, and it's something that perhaps the more comfortable people saying "There's no such thing is privilege" don't realize or appreciate they even have. And that's when the hostility starts, when people outright ignore or deny this fact. If you think privilege means wealth, power, and comfort, it's not always that obvious.

If you ignore this, I don't blame anyone for being hostile towards you. I have all the feelings for you in the world for having a shit day when it happens, but you could have avoided that if you'd made better life choices.

[ChipNoir]

But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished.

She is still on parole, unless somewhere off screen she did finish her time. The wiki suggests - not as canon as the comic, I know - that her current chassis may be the equivalent of an ankle bracelet for parolees.
Aside from that, yes, she's allowed her emotions, and she's worthy of respect, like anyone else. But like anyone else, she also needs to consider the feelings of other people. I suspect that that may be part of the rationale behind the virtual companionship program she participated in; a first step to rehabilitation and reintroduction to society.

Question; if we look at panel three; how often do you suppose Hannelore has been put in that position? She has become more confident and able to deal with the world, that is certain.

Also, on the following panel, I think it's nice how she is reassuring him, for a change.

Intersectionality is a thing.

If you're a white person in a wheelchair, you still benefit from being white. You just don't benefit from being able-bodied. There's a whole bunch of different forces at work, and it's silly to pretend that white women, for instance, don't have it better than black women, or a gay person with a disability has the exact same circumstances as a straight person with a disability.

I agree, there are benefits, and as such, privilege is a thing. However, the argument that because you believe your interlocutor profits from a certain privilege, therefore their opinion is not worth hearing, and their feelings are invalid, is a very ugly argument. Helping each other understand their mutual bias, and working towards a solution is much more productive. Sadly, and again, in my experience, that is very seldomly the route taken.

That's the problem: Winslow doesn't have an opinion. He has an emotion, and he desperately wanted May to validate something that really is pretty shallow. Winslow doesn't need that body, not really. Hanners provides for him everything he needs. He doesn't have anywhere to go,hence why he went straight for the only two people he actually knows (and not very well). He admits he didn't even think about what to do with that body.

May and Momo have lives they want to lead. Winslow just wanted to have attention on him again after the friends he really wasn't that close to started having their own lives. That in itself is really, really, REALLY miopic and deserving of a smack on the head.

But hey, he's progressing now, so I'm prepared to see where he goes with this. Had the comic gone towards patronizing him and "Oh May's just a jerk" I'd probably have skived off reading the comic for a month.

[snufflebottoms]

Winslow doesn't need that body, not really.

He sat on his side all day for God know's how long, unable to get up all alone. Yeah, he was safe. And Hanner's DOES provide what he needs, like a new body. He didn't need it in the purest sense of the word but it was certainly a reasonable request, one which he was willing to work for.

I mean you could argue that May doesn't need two arms. She was able to do much more than Winslow was in the ipad with just one arm. But just because she can technically survive without the arm, doesn't mean she doesn't need it.

Also, now that Winslow has a body, he can make a life to lead. But he's on day one of that opportunity.

[Cornelius]

Exactly. I wonder how many people restricted to their rooms because of a disability would like to be told they don't need the treatment that would let them go out, because, hey, their families and friends provide all they need for them. Or, to continue the simile used earlier, telling a trans person they don't need hrt or srs, because they can perfectly well function as is, and should just go calling themselves their preferred gender. (No offense intended to those for whom that might be sufficient).

That's the problem: Winslow doesn't have an opinion. He has an emotion, and he desperately wanted May to validate something that really is pretty shallow. Winslow doesn't need that body, not really. Hanners provides for him everything he needs. He doesn't have anywhere to go,hence why he went straight for the only two people he actually knows (and not very well). He admits he didn't even think about what to do with that body.

May and Momo have lives they want to lead. Winslow just wanted to have attention on him again after the friends he really wasn't that close to started having their own lives. That in itself is really, really, REALLY miopic and deserving of a smack on the head.

But hey, he's progressing now, so I'm prepared to see where he goes with this. Had the comic gone towards patronizing him and "Oh May's just a jerk" I'd probably have skived off reading the comic for a month.

You may have missed the point where I included emotions and feelings.

May and Momo have lives to lead. True. Perhaps Winslow is seeking to lead a life for himself as well? His purpose as a companion is taking up very much less of his time, now that Hannelore is out doing exactly that as well.

Well, we can all at least agree that it's a good thing to see Winslow progressing. As snufflebottoms said, he's just still on day one.

Also, I seem to be overusing the word well, as well. Well...

[Dal Gurak]

great to see him motivating wanting to help, not just from May's reaction.

Hopefully May will have the opportunity to realise that when she's calmed down.  Maybe he'll even end up in an AI charity and helping May (and acknowledging her reaction, at that)!

I have a terrible feeling that, if Winslow does end up trying to help May via charity and the like, she'll go off on him again.  Something along the lines of "Oh, so you think you can throw money at me and I have to apologize and [crude sex thing] you, huh?  I ain't no charity case you -" and then lots of swearing.  While he just stands there confused, upset, awkward and possibly blamed as the one in the wrong once again.  Just the visualization of this is making me curl up - I reeeally hope that doesn't happen.  I mean, if they end up getting along that would be just lovely, but if I was in his position I would make it a point to stay the heck away from her.  Then again I am a huge wimp and conflict is not my friend.

On that note I wanna point something out - I don't hate May.  I think she's loads of fun to read, and I really hope she ends up happy, with a body and job she can be proud of.  But if someone talked to me the way she talks to people, I'd get the heck outta there and do my level best to avoid that person.  Not out of anger, but to avoid future meanness.

[Cornelius]

To be honest, May doesn't strike me as the type to go for charity. She has made a point of trying to get her repairs done herself.

Going to a charity may infringe on the independence I think she seeks. Which begs the question at to what her background really is? Perhaps she really was confined to a server in her last job.

[pwhodges]

Winslow doesn't need that body, not really. Hanners provides for him everything he needs.

To argue that Winslow doesn't need a body is the start of a slippery slope.

It used to be that women didn't need to go out, or work, or even think - men provided all of those functions, so that the women could be kept for their single function of having children.  Even a historically aware companion AI might well be satisfied with being just that; but equally they might, like Winslow, and like women in the past, start to want more.  We shouldn't say that is wrong.

[Emperor Norton]

I think one of the reasons that some people have a hard time seeing their privilege is because privilege sounds like something you shouldn't have. And when your privilege is mostly just not being judged by your skin color, something that everyone should have, it doesn't seem like an advantage.

I've always thought the word privilege was a bit weird to define "the state of being that everyone should actually have" but it is the word we have, so whatever.

On the other side, I have had people use the word privilege to shut down my opinion on stuff. Hilariously sometimes based on areas I'm not actually privileged. (Such as my sexuality (I'm bi, have had people try to shut down my opinion by accusing me of being straight.)).

Privilege is a thing and we should be aware of it, but it also shouldn't be used as a blunt instrument to smack people with.

[Emperor Norton]

Also, also, just ew on the person who said Winslow didn't need that body. That is. Ew.

People have already stated why.

[Cornelius]

Privilege is a thing and we should be aware of it, but it also shouldn't be used as a blunt instrument to smack people with.

This. Aside from anything else you might think to be accomplishing in doing so, you also risk alienating possible allies.

[flondrix]

Just a thought: It just occurred to me that Momo was aware of the "criminal hitchhiker" while May was participating in the virtual companion program. Not just of her present, but also of her status. Does this mean that there is some way for AI to detect and identify each other other than visual identification? Though it might possibly be explained as a flag for convict.

Part of Momo's duties at the library include catching students making improper or illegal use of the WiFi.  She installed an ap that lets her know what's going on the local hub.

(I just made that up.)

[flondrix]

plus when momo got a new body he didn't know she wasnt in the old chasis until he hooked up a connector to her old body and saw it was empty.

I wonder about this process of transfer.  It seems that each time an AI does this, the copy in the original body gets wiped.  That makes it very risky, since something might happen to garble new copy as happened when Momo first transferred in strip 2000.  Can AIs make backup copies of themselves?  I don't buy that the soul is some sort of quantum cryptography thing that can be transmitted but not copied--they appear to be transferring themselves around with ordinary cables.

When Faye first visited the robot fighting arena, Corpse Witch showed her the triple-reinforced drive that contained the robot's "core self."  If getting a new body involved popping that out of one body and into another, I could buy that the AI could only be in one "place."  But the three times we have seen an AI "trying out a new body", it has involved connecting a cable between the two bodies, which implies that the AI gets copied from a drive in the old body to whatever drive the new body already has.  They should be capable of copy without erasure, and of making backups.

[flondrix]

But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished.

As others have pointed out, May has not served her sentence yet.  She is on parole, meaning that in exchange for her promise to behave she is allowed outside of prison and limited autonomy but her activities and mobility are still heavily restricted.  The usual argument about punishment versus rehabilitation aside, she needs to demonstrate that she can play nicely with others in the outside world or parole will be revoked and she will be back to serving her sentence in prison.

[flondrix]

I've always thought the word privilege was a bit weird to define "the state of being that everyone should actually have" but it is the word we have, so whatever.

There is a range of "privilege".  Much of "white privilege" is exactly as you describe--"privileges" such as not being shot on sight by the police, for example.  On the other hand, one guy was describing how he eventually realized that what some people were calling his "middle-class privilege" was already knowing at an early age that "having a job" meant showing up on time, recently bathed, dressed a certain way, and behaving in a certain way towards superiors and customers.  Some of his cow orkers had to learn this the hard way, but he had already had it beaten into him from childhood.  (And no, there was nothing inherently "middle class" about that, that's just what other people were calling it.)  Then on the extreme end there are those who have had the "privilege" of always being surrounded by people who allow them to believe that they are always right, that they know what they are doing, that are good at everthing.  I won't mention any names, but I'm sure we can all think of one example...

[changer]

I feel like this arc does not belong. It's completely hypocritical because of the existence of Momo's similar arc.

Momo had, objectively, the BEST body out of the small AIs. It had cool features, the best mobility, best cosmetics. Then, she decides she wants a full sized body, and begs her *not rich* room mate to shell out the cash to buy one for her, to be repaid later.

Winslow had, objectively, the WORST body out of the small AIs. He was clumbsy, his limbs didn't articulate well, he can't even stand up by himself. He was helpless and easily picked on, and when he decides he wants a new body all of a sudden he's privileged?

I'm sorry, what? In what way is he any more privileged than Momo? Because he's a boy robot? Seems like it. After all, he actually had a body that was difficult to live with, whereas Momo had a perfectly functional, premium body and she decided she wanted MORE.

Momo wants a body that she doesn't need, and gets an arc where she shows off her new body, all it's features and everybody is happy for her. Winslow wants a body that he kinda DOES need because his old body was terrible and he has to be "taught a lesson" about daring to step out of the shadows and into the foreground.

Seriously, when has Winslow even had a story arc? The only time I can recall is the first time he got a full sized body and the body he got was disturbing to look at and nobody liked it so he went back to his poorly functioning body.

Honestly, Winslow is the least privileged character in the comic. He sits in the background, being forgotten about almost as often as Steve is, only appearing to occasionally support Hanners, or get bullied by pintsize and the one time he actually wants something his story arc gets to be all about how bad he should feel for being able to have one single nice thing happen to him ever.

[JoeCovenant]

But May did jail time. She served her sentence. She's been punished.

As others have pointed out, May has not served her sentence yet.  She is on parole, meaning that in exchange for her promise to behave she is allowed outside of prison and limited autonomy but her activities and mobility are still heavily restricted.  The usual argument about punishment versus rehabilitation aside, she needs to demonstrate that she can play nicely with others in the outside world or parole will be revoked and she will be back to serving her sentence in prison.

It may also be pertinent to mention that May has her *own* privilege, insofar as she is on Parole.. and working.
Not all parolee's can say such a thing.


On a slightly related note...
I am wondering how much of this conversation is US-centric...?

[Cornelius]

If I hear privilege being not getting shot by the police, I'm glad to be living in Europe.

Some elements definitely are US-centric, but it's a concept you start meeting here as well. Even if the social context does not translate.

[SmilingCat]

It may also be pertinent to mention that May has her *own* privilege, insofar as she is on Parole.. and working.
Not all parolee's can say such a thing.

No matter who you are, there's always someone somewhere worse off.

[brasca]

I'm weary of all these arguments over privilege.  The important question is what will Winslow see after sniffing his first cup of tea.

[SmilingCat]

I'm weary of all these arguments over privilege.  The important question is what will Winslow see after sniffing his first cup of tea.

I wanna say pegasi.

[Is it cold in here?]

Backups are possible. Pintsize was backed up to a desktop computer once.

[Is it cold in here?]

Global Moderator Comment

Thank you to everyone who has lowered the temperature of the discussion without my having to ask.

[BenRG]

There are certain things that can never be hidden. One of those things is trying to sneak an unauthorised free portion past your boss, as Hannelore found out here.

I still feel bad for Winslow. Would he want to do this if May and Bubbles hadn't basically browbeat him about this? I've just got the feeling that this is a "author's tract" and it really feels jarringly out-of-place in the general atmosphere of QC.

[Shjade]

Privilege is a thing and we should be aware of it, but it also shouldn't be used as a blunt instrument to smack people with.

This. Aside from anything else you might think to be accomplishing in doing so, you also risk alienating possible allies.

The first statement is true. Of course, pointing out someone has privilege of which they seem to be unaware or refusing to recognize isn't smacking them with it, and suggesting that it is really just shines a light on how much you want to refuse the truth of the situation.

The second statement is some #NotAllX bullshit. If a self-described "ally" is "alienated" by having their privilege called out, they weren't an ally in the first place.

[Shjade]

I feel like this arc does not belong. It's completely hypocritical because of the existence of Momo's similar arc.

Momo had, objectively, the BEST body out of the small AIs. It had cool features, the best mobility, best cosmetics. Then, she decides she wants a full sized body, and begs her *not rich* room mate to shell out the cash to buy one for her, to be repaid later.

Okay, if you want to compare arcs, let's compare: after deciding they would like new bodies to better interact with the world around them, Momo and Winslow each get one - Momo after some pining and begging (and a little emotional turmoil in thinking Marigold was returning her to the store for having bothered her with the issue), Winslow after asking once - and both are joyous about the change! And what did they do afterward?

Winslow went to two of the other AnthroAIs he knows to beam and show it off and generally try to spread the joy he was feeling. Not inherently a bad thing; he mostly just misjudged his audience (or, more likely, didn't think about his audience at all, other than "these are my friends, I should show them!"). He's not a bad person for doing this! Just...a little thoughtless.

Momo went home. (Edit: Okay, she did stop by Marten's place first...to get her revenge on Pintsize for having been such a perv to her old chassis.) The next day, she immediately (as in the first possible moment, as Faye was getting her morning coffee after waking up) began looking into jobs to a) contribute and b) pay Marigold back. After securing a job at the library, she got roped into hiking with a new friend and then just carried on with her life after that. Her only celebratory phase was with Marigold, in the profuse thanks for the chassis, and...that's it.

This doesn't mean Momo's better than Winslow, or that what she did was right and what he did was wrong, but can you see a fairly significant difference between "new body -> putting it to the intended use" and "new body -> guys look new body! that I didn't really have plans for...but look, it's new!"? Also worth noting: May wasn't around yet, so we don't know how she might've responded to the situation.

Hypothesizing, if Momo's body arc had happened with May in her present circumstances, even if there were no immediate conflict over the body itself (as Momo skipped the whole "go out and tell everyone" phase), I wouldn't be surprised if May were still bitter about how easily Momo got a job she enjoys - literally the first day of job-hunting and only the second one she asked about (at least on-page). "Oh, yeah, it's so EASY just getting a cushy desk job when you look like a nerd's wet dream, pinky." Something like that. Because, as established, May is kind of a jerk.

That said, I also feel pretty sure Momo wouldn't have shown up at May's workplace to gush about her new library job, either.

[Emperor Norton]

The first statement is true. Of course, pointing out someone has privilege of which they seem to be unaware or refusing to recognize isn't smacking them with it, and suggesting that it is really just shines a light on how much you want to refuse the truth of the situation.

And I think you painting what May did as "pointing out someone has privilege" really just shines a light on how much you want to refuse the truth of the situation.

What Bubbles did, that was pointing out he had privilege. What May did? That was attack him and make him feel like a piece of shit. And she continued to insult him behind his back.

[Shjade]

The first statement is true. Of course, pointing out someone has privilege of which they seem to be unaware or refusing to recognize isn't smacking them with it, and suggesting that it is really just shines a light on how much you want to refuse the truth of the situation.

And I think you painting what May did as "pointing out someone has privilege" really just shines a light on how much you want to refuse the truth of the situation.

Um, no. I'm not talking about May. I'm addressing the person talking about how they feel "privilege" is used in larger conversations.

May wasn't trying to have a conversation about Winslow's role in society or social justice.

[Magniras]

The second statement is some #NotAllX bullshit. If a self-described "ally" is "alienated" by having their privilege called out, they weren't an ally in the first place.

Why would anyone ever feel the need to "call out" the privilege of who is trying to use their advantages to back a cause they believe in?

[Shjade]

Why would anyone ever feel the need to "call out" the privilege of who is trying to use their advantages to back a cause they believe in?

Short answer: Exactly.

Long answer: It's possible to think you're helping when, in reality, you're not. For a mundane example, suggesting people being harassed online should "ignore the trolls," when that's a) not really helpful or constructive and b) indicative that you're either a person with a different kind of resilience/response to that behavior than the person you're talking to, or in a position where you've never had to worry about/deal with that much negative attention yet feel you have advice to offer about it. Either way, you're not really being the supportive, understanding "ally" you think you are by essentially disregarding a person's problems in telling them they just shouldn't look at them and ta-da the problem will go away on its own. It's the kind of thing a person might do to feel like they're helping, which isn't the same thing as actually helping. And it generally comes from a place of privilege, or ignorance, or both.

[Emperor Norton]

If you've never had someone try to use accusations of privilege to invalidate your opinion, then you are, in my opinion, lucky.

I've literally had people try to shut down my opinion on LGBT stuff, when I'm actually LGBT because they thought I was straight and accused me of straight privilege.

[Shjade]

If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.

Any concept can and will be misused and abused. That doesn't invalidate the concept.

Edit: And there are definitely problems to address with the culture as a whole and its ramifications. But that's a much longer conversation, and probably beyond the scope of this thread.

[flondrix]

I'm weary of all these arguments over privilege.  The important question is what will Winslow see after sniffing his first cup of tea.

It would appear that we have been cheated out of that scene.

[Emperor Norton]

If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.

Any concept can and will be misused and abused. That doesn't invalidate the concept.

Edit: And there are definitely problems to address with the culture as a whole and its ramifications. But that's a much longer conversation, and probably beyond the scope of this thread.

Again. I have said many times in this thread that privilege exists, that it is a thing. Stop trying to treat "I hate when people are asses about privilege and try to use it to shut down discussion" with "privilege doesn't exist".

You are making up arguments that no one in the thread made in order to lecture people like they are children.

[Magniras]

Why would anyone ever feel the need to "call out" the privilege of who is trying to use their advantages to back a cause they believe in?

Long answer: It's possible to think you're helping when, in reality, you're not. For a mundane example, suggesting people being harassed online should "ignore the trolls," when that's a) not really helpful or constructive and b) indicative that you're either a person with a different kind of resilience/response to that behavior than the person you're talking to, or in a position where you've never had to worry about/deal with that much negative attention yet feel you have advice to offer about it. Either way, you're not really being the supportive, understanding "ally" you think you are by essentially disregarding a person's problems in telling them they just shouldn't look at them and ta-da the problem will go away on its own. It's the kind of thing a person might do to feel like they're helping, which isn't the same thing as actually helping. And it generally comes from a place of privilege, or ignorance, or both.

Actually helping is one of the hardest things people can learn to do. It's exhausting, it can be discouraging, and it can be physically and emotionally draining. Add in someone demanding proof that you're a "real" ally, and the drain and discouragement can make people wonder if anything is worth such a thankless task.

I dont think any thanks or congratulations are owed to someone doing what they consider to be the right thing. But I also know how much even a small gesture can mean to people. And I know how much damage can be done by berating someone for not knowing about something they have no experience with.

[SmilingCat]

I still feel bad for Winslow. Would he want to do this if May and Bubbles hadn't basically browbeat him about this? I've just got the feeling that this is a "author's tract" and it really feels jarringly out-of-place in the general atmosphere of QC.

I doubt Bubbles' conversation with Winslow could be considered browbeating by any stretch of the imagination. Not really May's for that matter. She was lashing out. I seriously doubt she did so with any intention of making him do anything. I am a connoisseur of such outburst since the days before I discovered antidepressants. The outburst is very familiar to me from my time in a newspaper mailroom when those FRIGGING ASSHOLES IN THE PRESSROOM NEED TO ADJUST THEIR FRIGGIN MACHINES SO OUR JACKETS WOULD FRIGGIN FEED RIGHT....

...sorry. Reflex.

Anyway... neither conversation seems particularly out of character. At least half of May's appearances have featured her being unhappy and abrasive over her lot in life. It's entirely in character to react the same way to Winslow (I maintain not justified. One of the side affects of being on antidepressants now is that I'm able to acknowledge that the unhinged fire breathing lunatic me was an asshole).

Likewise, Bubbles is a very reserved individual. And once she started opening up to people, her usual bouts of hostility pretty much faded away. She's entirely the type to rationally discuss with Winslow what's bothering him and what he could do about it.