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Winslow Meets The World! Who'll have the most interesting response to Winslow 2.0?

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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)  (Read 81416 times)

Shjade

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #350 on: 18 Aug 2017, 13:29 »

Again. I have said many times in this thread that privilege exists, that it is a thing. Stop trying to treat "I hate when people are asses about privilege and try to use it to shut down discussion" with "privilege doesn't exist".

You are making up arguments that no one in the thread made in order to lecture people like they are children.

A bit ironic, given that's not the argument I'm making.

@Magniras: I never claimed it was easy. Unfortunately, a lot of damage is also done by having crowds of people all telling you to do the same, unhelpful thing, and that's bound to lead to some negative feedback, because we're human. In an ideal world they get a polite response explaining the problem, how to help/improve, etc., but as was pointed out earlier in this thread, we don't live in an ideal world. Indeed, if we did, the situation wouldn't come up in the first place.

Sidenote, there's never a reason to "prove you're a 'real' ally," since that's a thing that's determined by your actions. You don't need to call yourself an ally, or be called that by other people; if it's what you are, it's what you do. Making a declarative thing of it is looking in the wrong direction.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #351 on: 18 Aug 2017, 13:42 »

Alright, I was making some arguments, that in the meantime have been made - notably, that learning to help can be very difficult, and that it is, at best, unhelpful, telling people that because they are xyz, they cannot begin to understand.

A really handy functionality, that notification of answers while writing.

Sidenote, there's never a reason to "prove you're a 'real' ally," since that's a thing that's determined by your actions. You don't need to call yourself an ally, or be called that by other people; if it's what you are, it's what you do. Making a declarative thing of it is looking in the wrong direction.

I wish more people would understand that.
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Magniras

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #352 on: 18 Aug 2017, 13:51 »

@Magniras: I never claimed it was easy. Unfortunately, a lot of damage is also done by having crowds of people all telling you to do the same, unhelpful thing, and that's bound to lead to some negative feedback, because we're human. In an ideal world they get a polite response explaining the problem, how to help/improve, etc., but as was pointed out earlier in this thread, we don't live in an ideal world. Indeed, if we did, the situation wouldn't come up in the first place.

I think the problem stems from the sheer amount of ideal worlds that exist.  It'd be easier if humans had one culture and one ideal world.

Sidenote, there's never a reason to "prove you're a 'real' ally," since that's a thing that's determined by your actions. You don't need to call yourself an ally, or be called that by other people; if it's what you are, it's what you do. Making a declarative thing of it is looking in the wrong direction.

Unfortunately, I've met people who would disagree with that point of view.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #353 on: 18 Aug 2017, 14:24 »

Mostly because there are people who claim to be an ally, but who's actions show they are anything but. And there are people who have been so victimized or are so untrusting that they do not believe someone not like them would want to help without ulterior motive.
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Emperor Norton

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #354 on: 18 Aug 2017, 14:41 »

Again. I have said many times in this thread that privilege exists, that it is a thing. Stop trying to treat "I hate when people are asses about privilege and try to use it to shut down discussion" with "privilege doesn't exist".

You are making up arguments that no one in the thread made in order to lecture people like they are children.

A bit ironic, given that's not the argument I'm making.

The line you said that people misusing it does not invalidate the term. I never said it invalidated the term. I never said there was anything not valid about the term. The term is very valid. The only way the term would not be valid is if the phenomenon that it describe did not exist. So tell me again how your argument is not stating that I am saying privilege doesn't exist.
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Shjade

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #355 on: 18 Aug 2017, 15:11 »

Your logic doesn't follow, Norton. The term would also be invalid if it were primarily used to, for instance, shut down people undeservingly and refuse to hear their point of view, as you noted has been done to you in the post to which I initially responded. Unfortunately, this would still be an issue regardless due to the people choosing to use it that way, not because of the specific terms they use to do it.

My argument didn't make any claims on your behalf about the existence of privilege or lack thereof, only about the people who abuse terminology around it and their impact on general perception of the term. I'm sorry if I've caused you any distress over this; that's the last thing I'd want to do.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #356 on: 18 Aug 2017, 15:33 »

Winslow's essentially a good guy

I wonder if the Unicorns will like him
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #357 on: 18 Aug 2017, 17:43 »

I really hope next week is kinder to Winslow.

Also, I hope Winslow has a chance to stand up for himself against May. It would be a hilarious but awesome mic-drop moment, if when the two meet (maybe after his tea, May and Momo show up

And he just says "May I am sorry that you thought I was holding my new body over you. I've thought about it and I am "

And when she goes to cut him off with her whole jaded and all knowing street smart rant, he takes the assertive route and cuts her off and says

"I wanted a new body so I could be independent, so that I wouldn't be bound to one location and vulnerable so that nobody else can pick on me. That includes you." And then he just walks away.
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Meilu

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #358 on: 18 Aug 2017, 18:04 »

I really hope next week is kinder to Winslow.

Also, I hope Winslow has a chance to stand up for himself against May. It would be a hilarious but awesome mic-drop moment, if when the two meet (maybe after his tea, May and Momo show up

And he just says "May I am sorry that you thought I was holding my new body over you. I've thought about it and I am "

And when she goes to cut him off with her whole jaded and all knowing street smart rant, he takes the assertive route and cuts her off and says

"I wanted a new body so I could be independent, so that I wouldn't be bound to one location and vulnerable so that nobody else can pick on me. That includes you." And then he just walks away.
Seems out of character for him and completely off message for the arc. I don't see him "standing up for himself" as if she's some sort of horrible bully. She's just abrasive because her situation sucks. I've been there (who am I kidding... I live there) and find May extremely relatable. Some people are asses who flaunt their privilege in inappropriate settings. It's one thing to be happy for your change in circumstance, it's another to go to all the effort to go to your underprivileged friend's workplace and say "look how great I have it right now!" Reminds me of when my friend showed up at my shitty retail job two weeks after my separation from my spouse, with her new boyfriend, specifically to tell me she got a massive promotion. There are better, more thoughtful ways to handle these things. Winslow got caught up in the moment and didn't think. That doesn't make him a bad guy, and maybe May shouldn't have bit his head off, but there's no reason she should have to tiptoe around how he made her feel. It was insensitive.

And after reading most this thread, everyone saying this would have happened regardless of their locale and circumstances, I totally disagree with that. As a story it wouldn't have worked in Marten's apartment or CoD or anywhere other than May's shitty job. That was part of the point.
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ChipNoir

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #359 on: 18 Aug 2017, 18:59 »

I had a lot of time at work to think about why what Winslow does bugs me enough that I'm not entirely willing to side against May here.

1. His mobility is...almost an afterthought. There are times where the comics make small jokes that are a little off topic, and that may be it. I'm pretty sure this isn't a 'common' issue for him. If it is, then my heart goes out to him, and yes, at the very least he deserves something besides an Ipod for a body. Strange that Apple would make something so clunky. User friendly out-of-box is typically their motife.... But the major thing is that he wants to be like May, Momo, and Bubbles. His relationship to Momo and Pintsize is they were peers, and now at least one of them has basically evolved past him, and has seemingly ceased having an active relationship. He wants to feel equal to them. Pintsize is...well Pintsize. But basically Winslow has defined himself by Hanners, who while she appreciates him, doesn't really need him, just like how Martin doesn't 'need' Pintsize anymore. The dynamic has changed, and probably left Winslow with an identity crisis he isn't talking about.

Also does Hanners not have a skype that Winslow can call when he's left like this? Poor little guy.

2. I've said he doesn't 'need' because this is the very first time he's brought this up. I really don't think this was a burning desire so much as an impulsive "Hey, I want that too" which is easy to read into from an outside perspective. This isn't a "My life is horrible, I need this chassis to function" sounding decision. This is a "I'm feeling left behind, maybe a body will fix that" and it turns out no, it's not a quick fix for his self esteem.

3. His wording is pretty key for dealing with Momo.  With Momo he's all "I have a new body. Dot. Dot. Dot." As if he's either expecting Momo to bask in this, or even say more. He wanted someone we've already confirmed isn't that close to him to drop what they're doing and make the moment all about him, and well, people have their own life.  She already gave her kudos, and then he kept wanting to suck her further into his own ego an that is a major turn off. So that's the first strike against him.

4. "I decided I wanted to be a humanoid like you," those two words are probably what put the handbrake on the conversation for May. First, he didn't get the chassis like them. Momo got it at great cost to her friend, and has been working hard ever since, so May even might be offended on her behalf. But more so, May is saddled with this issued chassis. Whatever you think about her deserving it or not, it isn't the same. Winslow acts like this makes them equals, and it doesn't. The bigger word "Decided", as if this is just a whim. Yes, it means a lot to him now, but it didn't before. This isn't something we've seen him struggle with, and have a burning desire for, and with a goal in life involved. Just "I want what they have, because I don't have it. And I'm inconvenienced sometimes.". Strike two. I'm VERY annoyed with him.

5. I have my own baggage; When I came out, I was VERY young. Like at least 13. I went from feeling isolated and lonely because I had nothing to share to "HI I'M GAY!" to everyone I met, to the point where I was defining my as being gay, without there being any real meaning to it besides "Hey look at me, I have this special thing!" and that started being very alienating to people, and it took a similar chewing out for me to realize that if I wanted friends, I needed to identify as more as an actual person, not an orientation that I didn't even really understand the culture and strife involved with it.  So that's three strikes.

So by the time May has her blow up, I'm feeling on her side in a bit. And I know its unfair. Winslow is not a bad person. But a good person can still be quite aggravating.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #360 on: 18 Aug 2017, 20:50 »

Winslow Meets The World! Who'll have the most interesting response to Winslow 2.0?

Momo    1 (1.6%)
May    17 (27.9%)
Bubbles    9 (14.8%)
Faye    2 (3.3%)
Pintsize    21 (34.4%) <--- Too bad it didn't happen... this week.
Station    3 (4.9%)
Spookybot    2 (3.3%)
Spathe Ham and Waffles    3 (4.9%)
Purple Monkey Dishwashers    1 (1.6%)
Mods, help me!    2 (3.3%)

Total Members Voted: 61
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Emperor Norton

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #361 on: 18 Aug 2017, 21:22 »

Oh please, Winslow made a major change in his life to be more like his friends, he was feeling left behind, and wanted to do more like all his peers, and he was excited to show people he had joined their world.

He was impatient about it, so he headed to where they were to do it. Which happened to be at work.

HOW DARE HE DO SOMETHING SO SINISTER. FOR SHAME.

Seriously.

Here is the thing, I've been in May's shoes. I've seen people just decide and get things they want because they come from money, and then show it off to me. Even when I was so dirt poor that I ate ramen for weeks to save the real food for my kids. And yes, I was a bit jealous. But I never once snapped at them. I never once felt it was their responsibility to take care of my feelings. Because I can actually take care of my feelings. And even if I was jealous, I was happy they got something they were excited about, because I'm an empathetic human being who cares about people other than myself. Fucking hell, isn't it wonderful whenever there is joy in the world?

And now that I'm better off? Perhaps I should stop telling my board game group about all the new games I get all the time. Cause most of them are very poor and can rarely buy anything for themselves. But I don't have to cause they are adults who don't treat me having a lower middle-class income as an attack on them.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #362 on: 18 Aug 2017, 21:32 »

Because I can actually take care of my feelings.
May clearly can't. That's something she should work on. Hopefully she will, that'd be character growth.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #363 on: 18 Aug 2017, 21:51 »

This has been a heck of a lot of words over a relatively minor spat between two characters that will almost certainly be resolved within a single comic.
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Emperor Norton

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #364 on: 18 Aug 2017, 22:00 »

Because I can actually take care of my feelings.
May clearly can't. That's something she should work on. Hopefully she will, that'd be character growth.

Which is my point. But she also doesn't have a lot of self-awareness about it, and if no one tells her, I doubt she'll ever even notice it is a problem.
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Cornelius

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #365 on: 18 Aug 2017, 23:18 »

You know, thinking about it, May may really resent the"like you" comment. After all, she didn't want to be humanoid in the first place. It's certainly a step up from disembodied existence, but ostensably not what she wants. That might be more of an issue than Winslow getting what he needs. Of course, Hannelore being one of the few people who might arrange the chassis she actually wants, legally, might be aggravating. It's just possible that she sees the humanoid chassis as little more than a toy - which means she's having to live as a broken toy.
And due to the way she tried to get what she wanted, she'll never get it, probably.

Alright, my point, to be clear, is that, although we see May as a humanoid, that might not be what she essentially is. There isn't much back story, and this might be the first time she's actually embodied.

Since she clearly cannot go back to what she was before, I'd like to propose that this parole, where we see her now, is an attempt at generation, with the virtual companion program as a first step. It would also explain why she is obliged to attend the support group.

Which means that she's still having to learn how to deal with people. So someone should tell her.

@ChipNoir; Thank you for sharing that I can see more clearly where you're coming from. That doesn't mean I agree, however.

As for comparing arcs, I feel we may have better reason to compare this to the one where Claire gets her ears pierced.

Edit: for spelling: apparently chassis had gotten corrected to chaos.
« Last Edit: 19 Aug 2017, 02:23 by Cornelius »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #366 on: 19 Aug 2017, 01:52 »

it is, at best, unhelpful, telling people that because they are xyz, they cannot begin to understand.

You see, I think there is a lot of truth in that. Being white and middle class from birth, I am not going to pretend that I understand what it is like to be of obviously North-African descent in my society. I don't have to deal with those levels of prejudice; intellectually I know it exists, but it is not part of my experience, so no, I cannot begin to understand.

Just like I dropped out of my comfortable middle-class life and had to survive in dead-end jobs for years, including applying for unemployment, means that I understand life on the underside a lot better than my comfortably-off colleagues who came straight from college into a well-paying job, and spout off on how benefit claimants are all lazy good-for-nothings, and act surprised if I get mad about that.

People often let their privilege blind themselves to the actual life experience of others. "You cannot begin to understand" is not a dismissal, it's criticism. If you want to take it as a dismissal, I'm thinking you're rather proving the point.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #367 on: 19 Aug 2017, 02:43 »

Here's the thing everyone seems to be ignoring; none of us are Winslow, none of us can really say for certain what Winslow needs beyond shelter, a reliable power source, and some sense of security.
We can only infer some of Winslows' needs from Maslow's hierachy of needs. 'Winslow' [Jeph] will have to elaborate on any other needs he has.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #368 on: 19 Aug 2017, 03:33 »

it is, at best, unhelpful, telling people that because they are xyz, they cannot begin to understand.

You see, I think there is a lot of truth in that. Being white and middle class from birth, I am not going to pretend that I understand what it is like to be of obviously North-African descent in my society. I don't have to deal with those levels of prejudice; intellectually I know it exists, but it is not part of my experience, so no, I cannot begin to understand.

Just like I dropped out of my comfortable middle-class life and had to survive in dead-end jobs for years, including applying for unemployment, means that I understand life on the underside a lot better than my comfortably-off colleagues who came straight from college into a well-paying job, and spout off on how benefit claimants are all lazy good-for-nothings, and act surprised if I get mad about that.

People often let their privilege blind themselves to the actual life experience of others. "You cannot begin to understand" is not a dismissal, it's criticism. If you want to take it as a dismissal, I'm thinking you're rather proving the point.

Oddly enough, they people most likely to say that are also the people who will say "I know what you're thinking!" People who claim that nobody understands them certainly claim to understand others...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #369 on: 19 Aug 2017, 07:38 »

Oh please, Winslow made a major change in his life to be more like his friends, he was feeling left behind, and wanted to do more like all his peers, and he was excited to show people he had joined their world.

He was impatient about it, so he headed to where they were to do it. Which happened to be at work.

HOW DARE HE DO SOMETHING SO SINISTER. FOR SHAME.

Seriously.

Here is the thing, I've been in May's shoes. I've seen people just decide and get things they want because they come from money, and then show it off to me. Even when I was so dirt poor that I ate ramen for weeks to save the real food for my kids. And yes, I was a bit jealous. But I never once snapped at them. I never once felt it was their responsibility to take care of my feelings. Because I can actually take care of my feelings. And even if I was jealous, I was happy they got something they were excited about, because I'm an empathetic human being who cares about people other than myself. Fucking hell, isn't it wonderful whenever there is joy in the world?

And now that I'm better off? Perhaps I should stop telling my board game group about all the new games I get all the time. Cause most of them are very poor and can rarely buy anything for themselves. But I don't have to cause they are adults who don't treat me having a lower middle-class income as an attack on them.
Who is calling it sinister? As far as I can tell nobody has done that. Your experience of tolerating insensitive behavior from people who were supposed to be your friends doesn't make your method objectively better. Given Winslow's reaction of thinking about how he can now use his privilege to help others, I'd say May getting angry was fine. Sometimes it takes a friend pointing out your behavior is insensitive. Sometimes it adds to their personal growth. I've made a lot of people think about things and alter their behavior by getting upset with them when they're insensitive. Letting people be insensitive and being happy for them are entirely different things. Flaunting privilege is inherently insensitive. Not every socially insensitive instance of privilege is going to be the insidious rich capitalist banker showing up at a poor person's house waving money in people's faces while laughing evilly and talking about evicting them. Nobody's saying it wasn't okay for him to be excited. They're saying how he handled it in regards to May was insensitive, which it was. Was her reaction the best? No, but why should she censor her feelings to spare his...? Are his more important because he's not a poor ex-convict?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #370 on: 19 Aug 2017, 07:50 »

Are his more important because he's not a poor ex-convict?
According to at least a few people here, yes. I am not one of those. I think Winslow doesn't know May as well as he thought he did, and that's why he said what he did. They're people, and they're flawed, and I think they can both move on from this and become better friends.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #371 on: 19 Aug 2017, 10:05 »

No, no one is calling it Sinister, but people are saying that wanting your friends to share in your happiness is a BURDEN. That somehow being happy that something good happened to your friend, which let him move from being basically a glorified iPod who can't even right himself to having the same functionality as an able bodied human being. That gave him freedom and the ability to do in life what he wants to do, rather than being stuck if he falls on his back.

And had she just called out that he was being a little insensitive, yeah, ok, but she doesn't, even as he is trying to apologize, she cuts him off and belittles him more. Then she goes to her friend and continues to talk shit about him.

Her feelings aren't worth less, but the way she shows her feelings are ACTIVELY MALICIOUS, while the way he shows his are not.

I don't know. I see a lot of people who are extremely bitter about their circumstances lashing out. Honestly, it feels like that is how we got Trump (a bunch of poor rural white folks feeling bitter about it feeling like no one cares about them, so they lashed out), so no, I don't support people bitterly lashing out at people who in no way are responsible for their situation.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #372 on: 19 Aug 2017, 11:27 »

No, no one is calling it Sinister, but people are saying that wanting your friends to share in your happiness is a BURDEN. That somehow being happy that something good happened to your friend, which let him move from being basically a glorified iPod who can't even right himself to having the same functionality as an able bodied human being. That gave him freedom and the ability to do in life what he wants to do, rather than being stuck if he falls on his back.
What exactly is there for them to share in? Explain to me. Momo and May were both working. As has been said repeatedly, Winslow has never complained about his lot in life up until he literally just decided to get a new body. Not everyone has that luxury. Some people have to work hard for it. It's more like Caitlyn Jenner showing up at my work and being like "transition was such a breeze for me". Yeah, great for you, fuck you for showing up here and saying that. I couldn't get mad about that (assuming I were friends with her, which I wouldn't be anyway because politics matter)?

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And had she just called out that he was being a little insensitive, yeah, ok, but she doesn't, even as he is trying to apologize, she cuts him off and belittles him more. Then she goes to her friend and continues to talk shit about him.
"I don't want an apology. I want him to to fuckin' think about it and not be a dick in the future."
Totally not talking shit about him. She's bitching about the situation and wanting him to think about it. Yes, there's a difference. And it's actually what he's doing, so... yeah.

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Her feelings aren't worth less, but the way she shows her feelings are ACTIVELY MALICIOUS, while the way he shows his are not.
You're reading maliciousness from being hurt by insensitivity. She didn't yell at him. She said it must be nice. She even said she was happy for him but didn't need him showing off in her face. Go enjoy yourself somewhere else, or something along those lines.

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I don't know. I see a lot of people who are extremely bitter about their circumstances lashing out. Honestly, it feels like that is how we got Trump (a bunch of poor rural white folks feeling bitter about it feeling like no one cares about them, so they lashed out), so no, I don't support people bitterly lashing out at people who in no way are responsible for their situation.
I'm a poor rural white person. It's not like rural white folks being bitter is unwarranted. Their anger was misdirected by propaganda like Fox News and Breitbart, pitting poor white people against minorities... the divide and conquer tactic. There's a whole bunch of things at play, pointing to bitter poor rural white folks and blaming them for Trump is ignoring a lot of bigger problems that led to them being bitter and poor to begin with. And I'm not even saying poor rural white people deserve sympathy over any other group that's struggling (they absolutely don't), but in a country with as many resources as the US has, it's patently absurd that anyone is poor and struggling. The only reason for it is greed. Just because bitter poor rural white people aren't all smart enough to see it doesn't mean they deserve the situation they're in, and if people are getting what they need to comfortably survive (not struggle to) then they won't listen to bullshit that tells them to blame minorities and immigrants for their terrible lot in life. They were looking for a reason and they listened to people who told them what it was. They were lied to, but how do they know any better? Yeah, some of them (like the Nazis) are fucking awful people. They just wouldn't have been susceptible to extremism if they were getting what they needed. But okay, just blame bitter people for Trump. Trump's a tiny symptom of a massive problem in the US. Would Hillary have fixed it? Mayyyybe, but probably not... she's just another corporate democrat.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #373 on: 19 Aug 2017, 12:21 »

People often let their privilege blind themselves to the actual life experience of others. "You cannot begin to understand" is not a dismissal, it's criticism. If you want to take it as a dismissal, I'm thinking you're rather proving the point.

Apologies for nitpicking:
That appears ... an odd criticism to me. Odd, because the challenge to 'check one's privilege' implies that the other should make an effort to understand, while 'you can't begin to understand' simultaneously asserts that precisely that which is demanded of them is beyond their capabilities (*).

Like ... what are they supposed to do with my telling them that I want them to do something I consider them utterly incapable of doing? People who have experienced emotional abuse might even suspect I'm trying to put them in something similar to a double bind, and loose all trust in me.


:?


(*) My apologies if that wasn't what you meant - you haven't explicitly put a challenge for somebody to 'check their privilege' next to 'you can't begin to understand', I felt the former was sort of 'in the air' here in this thread.
« Last Edit: 19 Aug 2017, 14:09 by Case »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #374 on: 19 Aug 2017, 12:28 »

@meilu, are you OK with me moving your post to DISCUSS?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #375 on: 19 Aug 2017, 12:40 »

I am sorry for screwing up the move of the followup post to DISCUSS. It was worthwhile and I should not have lost it.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #376 on: 19 Aug 2017, 12:44 »

I am sorry for screwing up the move of the followup post to DISCUSS. It was worthwhile and I should not have lost it.

Seems you moved smth. to Rules & stuff? https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,33831.msg1388175.html#msg1388175

So maybe it's not lost?

<mod>Thanks - I've moved it to Discuss! now</mod>
« Last Edit: 19 Aug 2017, 14:38 by pwhodges »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #377 on: 19 Aug 2017, 12:47 »

Yes, calling him a little fuck is totally not talking shit about him.

Also, yes, I'm sure the Must be Nice and I'm Happy for you weren't dripping with sarcasm and completely genuine!

(If you can't tell the last sentence was dripping with sarcasm and completely not genuine.)

Sorry, no, that whole spiel was designed to make him feel like shit.

I know that everyone reads the comics through a filter of their own experiences, but if you can legitimately, with May's past attitudes and actions, believe that she meant those statements genuinely... that is reaching.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #378 on: 19 Aug 2017, 12:52 »

And also I want to point out that, from the beginning, I had zero problems with the whole idea of Winslow realizing he was unintentionally hurtful, and finding a way to use his privilege in a positive way. I think he did mess up.

I just think the narrative is basically going "Winslow messed up so he deserves to be treated like shit by May."
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #379 on: 19 Aug 2017, 13:06 »

As opposed to the "May is an ex-con and deserves her shitty lot in life" narrative that seems so popular in this thread?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #380 on: 19 Aug 2017, 13:08 »

As opposed to the "May is an ex-con and deserves her shitty lot in life" narrative that seems so popular in this thread?

One that I don't subscribe to and have said so many many times.

I've said repeatedly that May's situation sucks. And that no one deserves to have a body that they can't actually look after because of money, no matter what they've done. (And even talked in detail about my own struggles with issues with my body that I cannot go to the doctor for, that I could be possibly doing more damage to my body because I'm ignoring it, but I don't know, because I can't see a doctor, cause I can't afford to).
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #381 on: 19 Aug 2017, 14:01 »

If you can't have a reasonable discussion with someone, it's because of the person, not the concept of privilege.

Any concept can and will be misused and abused. That doesn't invalidate the concept.

Edit: And there are definitely problems to address with the culture as a whole and its ramifications. But that's a much longer conversation, and probably beyond the scope of this thread.

Actually, we do have a thread over in DISCUSS for precisely that discussion that you worry would be beyond the scope of this thread -> "Has Callout Culture lost it's focus?" One of my personal favourites, truth be told.

Come to think of it - a lot of the discussion here would also fit pretty well over there.

TL;DR - Feel free!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #382 on: 19 Aug 2017, 14:59 »

Long Time reader first time poster.  I got a question for those of you keep insisting Winslow never had a problem before with is body orthat e didn't show it.  Could it have happened say off panel, he is a character that is rarely the focus of an arc but i doesn't mean that behind the scene he's perfectly content with his lot in life.  He could have wanted a body for a while but finally got the guts to ask Hanner's for one.  It might not have been an out of the blue type thing.

It just seems quite a few of you are jumping to the conclusion that it was just on a whim he decided he wanted a fully functional humanoid body.  I don' think that's the case.  Also what bugs me is that some of you seem to keep insisting that he wanted to rub his new body in people's face.  Hell in this comic when something happens to someone they alway go to where that person is work or home just to tell them the news.  Why is he the bad guy for wanting to do the same.  And I highly doubt it was to rub it into people's face either.  In fact when he showed it to Momo despite their brief interaction he was happy afterwards.  He wasn't like geez she didn't gush all over me and tell me how awesome I am.  He was content by her reaction.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #383 on: 19 Aug 2017, 15:24 »

Yes, calling him a little fuck is totally not talking shit about him.

Also, yes, I'm sure the Must be Nice and I'm Happy for you weren't dripping with sarcasm and completely genuine!
I don't think calling him a little fuck is talking shit about him. I think it's expressing anger and frustration. Maybe we have a different definition of "talking shit". Talking shit is more along the lines of criticizing someone unfairly behind their back... like fat shaming someone you saw eating cake to one of your mutual friends.


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(If you can't tell the last sentence was dripping with sarcasm and completely not genuine.)
I'm autistic and often can't hear or read sarcastic context. At any rate, you can simultaneously be happy someone's situation improved while being mad at them for being insensitive, so perhaps I'm reading it in a more literal way than you are.

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Sorry, no, that whole spiel was designed to make him feel like shit.
May got emotional because her rich kid friend showed up and flaunted his new body. You want her to play nice so he can continue his good mood in blissful ignorance of how insensitive he's being. I disagree that that would've been the best thing to do. Could she have handled it better? Probably. Could he have handled it better? Probably. But that's what makes the comic good, and worth arguing over.

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I know that everyone reads the comics through a filter of their own experiences, but if you can legitimately, with May's past attitudes and actions, believe that she meant those statements genuinely... that is reaching.
I actually do believe she's happy for his circumstances changing while simultaneously being angry at him for how flippant he's being. That's totally a thing that happens. People are complex, I'm sure AIs, treated like normal people in the comic, are too.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #384 on: 19 Aug 2017, 16:29 »

Totally off-topic, but I know how to insert an image that is out on the web somewhere by clicking the button with an icon of a framed picture and inserting the URL between the tags, but is there any way to insert an image that exists as a file on my local drive?  (i.e., no URL to paste)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #385 on: 19 Aug 2017, 16:36 »

Nah, unfortunately you'll have to upload it somewhere first. You can, however, upload a picture for your avatar.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #386 on: 19 Aug 2017, 16:46 »

Flaunting implies intent. Flaunting is about evoking jealousy.

Also, May uses tons and tons of sarcasm throughout the strip, I sincerely doubt she is being literal.

You can be both nice and address the situation. There is this huge excluded middle between "not saying anything at all and hiding your feelings", and "lashing out, cutting the person off when he tries to apologize, and telling them to get out of your face."

She wants him to think about how his actions affect others, but she doesn't hold herself to that standard at all. She regularly stomps on other peoples feelings through her impulsive jump before she looks attitude.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #387 on: 19 Aug 2017, 17:11 »

Flaunting implies intent. Flaunting is about evoking jealousy.

Also, May uses tons and tons of sarcasm throughout the strip, I sincerely doubt she is being literal.

You can be both nice and address the situation. There is this huge excluded middle between "not saying anything at all and hiding your feelings", and "lashing out, cutting the person off when he tries to apologize, and telling them to get out of your face."

She wants him to think about how his actions affect others, but she doesn't hold herself to that standard at all. She regularly stomps on other peoples feelings through her impulsive jump before she looks attitude.
I still didn't see him try to apologize. You attribute all of this "bad" to May and all of this "good" to Winslow, in both cases it seems a bit undeserved. I may have some difficulty with social context and whatnot sometimes, but it looks like you've built your ideas about each of them in your head and are blowing May's reaction out of proportion while minimizing Winslow's contribution to her reaction. She didn't yell at him. She got upset and spoke a little harshly. It ruined his mood and made him think. I'm seriously having trouble understanding why so many people think May is so terrible for it. She was blunt. If this were another character, like, I dunno, Brun, after her bar/apartment burned down, would it have been different?

And how is going to her work and literally showing off his new body to her not flaunting? Is that not the very definition of intent? He intended to show her. Seriously not getting your point with that.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #388 on: 19 Aug 2017, 17:33 »



(Flondrix -> Try Imgur)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #389 on: 19 Aug 2017, 17:36 »

@meilu, are you OK with me moving your post to DISCUSS?
sorry that I totally missed this! i would've been okay with it, but i see you moved the response instead. <3
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #390 on: 19 Aug 2017, 18:06 »

Friday's strip, panel 4. Winslow's new profile looks A LOT like Hannilore's own. Happenstance? Purposefull? Purpenstance?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #391 on: 19 Aug 2017, 18:16 »

Flaunt does not mean "to show off". Flaunting implies you are doing it in a way that is an attempt to evoke jealousy. He wanted his friends to be happy that he was joining them as humanoid bodied AIs. And once again: I have said since the beginning that he made a mistake in the way he did it, but somehow you are ignoring that I've said that over and over. That I think that him learning from this is good. But FLAUNTING implies that it was his intent to make her jealous, and it very much was not. His only fault was in not thinking about how him easily getting a new body when May is having such a hard time with hers. His fault was being thoughtless, he was not actively attempting to harm anyone.

And the absolute, only thing I'm expecting of May is to do the exact thing she wants Winslow to do: Think about how your actions affect others before you act.

You are taking a character who is regularly sarcastic, saying something that sounds incredibly sarcastic, and taking it literally. And you are acting like I'm making up May's regularly rude and insensitive personality from nowhere. This is who she has been since she was introduced. She doesn't think, she steps on people's feelings. And for her to turn around and snap at someone for not taking her feelings into account is... well it is quite hypocritical.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #392 on: 19 Aug 2017, 19:01 »



You spin me right round, thready
Right round like a record, thready
Right round round round

If we could hook this thread up to an engine, we could possibly have a perpetual motion device! It just keeps going around and around and around and around and....
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #393 on: 19 Aug 2017, 19:01 »

I still didn't see him try to apologize.

When did he have a chance to? He tells May his news, she bites his head off (not literally), he starts stammering and trying to say something, and she cuts him off after a few words and tells him to go away. He might have been trying to apologize, but we don't know what he was going to say before May interrupted him and refused to let him speak any more.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #394 on: 19 Aug 2017, 19:05 »

That is an accurate description of the current thread, TheEvilDog. I was thinking of dead horses and the abuse there of, but spinning in circles, grinding a rut in the ground is a much more apt metaphor.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #395 on: 19 Aug 2017, 19:32 »

I was thinking of dead horses and the abuse thereof ...

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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #396 on: 19 Aug 2017, 19:48 »

When did he have a chance to? He tells May his news, she bites his head off (not literally), he starts stammering and trying to say something, and she cuts him off after a few words and tells him to go away. He might have been trying to apologize, but we don't know what he was going to say before May interrupted him and refused to let him speak any more.
Fair enough. But nobody can say he tried to apologize... All we know is he started to say he knows he's fortunate.

Flaunt does not mean "to show off". Flaunting implies you are doing it in a way that is an attempt to evoke jealousy. He wanted his friends to be happy that he was joining them as humanoid bodied AIs. And once again: I have said since the beginning that he made a mistake in the way he did it, but somehow you are ignoring that I've said that over and over. That I think that him learning from this is good. But FLAUNTING implies that it was his intent to make her jealous, and it very much was not. His only fault was in not thinking about how him easily getting a new body when May is having such a hard time with hers. His fault was being thoughtless, he was not actively attempting to harm anyone.
flaunt
verb (used without object)
1. to parade or display oneself conspicuously, defiantly, or boldly.

You're using the word in a different way than I am, apparently. Regardless, I'm using the most common definition of flaunt. It isn't always to evoke jealousy.

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And the absolute, only thing I'm expecting of May is to do the exact thing she wants Winslow to do: Think about how your actions affect others before you act.
I'm failing to see the similarity in her behavior and his to warrant this reaction. Should we spare the feelings of people who insensitively hurt us because saying something will ruin their good mood, allowing them to continue hurting us?

Quote
You are taking a character who is regularly sarcastic, saying something that sounds incredibly sarcastic, and taking it literally. And you are acting like I'm making up May's regularly rude and insensitive personality from nowhere. This is who she has been since she was introduced. She doesn't think, she steps on people's feelings. And for her to turn around and snap at someone for not taking her feelings into account is... well it is quite hypocritical.
I take most things literally, so unfortunately I miss sarcasm most times. May is blunt, sometimes insulting, and has impulse control issues which is one of the first things we find out about her (it's also why she went to AI jail in the first place). She's also nicer than you give her credit for... she got Dale and Marigold together and has managed to become friends with most of the cast in some way or another despite her attitude. She's no worse than Faye used to be and is far less awful than Pintsize, but people on the forums are way harsher towards May than Faye or Pintsize. Is it really hypocritical for her to not taking his feelings into account when he disregarded hers? May is who she is. She's unhappy with her lot in life, which hasn't changed in at least two years, probably more with comic time jumps. http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2960

It's fine to not like her, but I still don't think she was out of line, or acting hypocritically.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #397 on: 19 Aug 2017, 20:16 »

This is getting repetitive. I’m not saying it has to stop, but it doesn’t look like either side is going to be convinced. We’ll probably see where this goes soon.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #398 on: 19 Aug 2017, 20:29 »

This is getting repetitive. I’m not saying it has to stop, but it doesn’t look like either side is going to be convinced. We’ll probably see where this goes soon.

Well, there's a new week's thread and a new poll freshly posted.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3546 to 3550 (14th to 18th August 2017)
« Reply #399 on: 19 Aug 2017, 20:50 »

This was originally going to be posted in last week's thread, but I wanted to post it where others can see because I think it still pertains to what will probably be this week's comics and isn't really about me picking a "side" here. Sorry in advance is this is annoying to bring up or a problem.

I think the problem that's causing the repetitiveness (in last week's threat) is the perspective everyone has from their own life experiences to a VERY controversial topic and portrayal of it. What with it being about AI's getting humanoid bodies, the analogies of privilege can be substituted with race, sex, transgenderism (not to be confused with transexualism which is also included in this list,) age, financial stability, etc.

What I'll say in my final thoughts is this: Both sides are immature in one way or another.

In Winslow's case: He was immature for coming into May's workplace without first thinking of the situation she's in, unable to afford a working body as her current one is breaking down. His happy and proud demeanor to be accepted and compliments by a friend was taken mistakenly as showing off with malice, which caused May to bite back at him. If things were perfect, he would have entered with a much more subtle approach, finding a more articulate way to explain why he got a new body and expressing that he understands if it bothers her that he showed up, all while not being as energetic as he was. Alternatively he could have waited until she saw him out of work or in a different social setting. Winslow is sheltered to a degree. Very knowledgeable but missing a few social cues and his extreme happiness about his new body and going out to friend's with known problems with their own bodies and not thinking it'd cause a reaction is VERY sheltered thinking. Whether it was because he forgot about May's situation or he outright did not think it was a problem, this is immaturity in a sense. In the future, Winslow definitely should take the time to assess how the people around him will react when bringing forth a change as drastic/controversial as this one. And I mean drastic and controversial in a very neutral term, not a negative one.

In May's case: She was immature for responding the way she did. Her emotions and frustrations, while valid, were not properly coped with nor handled well. Sarcasm and rudeness does not get anyone anywhere, even if it feels cathartic to release it on the person who made you feel mad. May should have expressed that while, hey that's great for Winslow to have gotten his own body, he shouldn't have been so excitable about it to her as she was feeling malaise and sadness about her breaking body. She could have easily stated that she was angry in a clear and direct manner, rather than be quick to react with words that did not explicitly express her frustration. On that, she shows immaturity when speaking with Momo as she continues to let her anger direct her words and behavior by being facetious about living with Hannelore while using terms as "little fuck" and "dick" to describe him and his personality. Again, she could have expressed she was mad about his situation and instead used the time she was away from work to use coping skills to bring herself down from her anger until she could properly explain why she felt mad without resorting to derogatory terms and insults.

Are both sides in the wrong? Yes. Are they forever monsters? No. Should they both apologize in some degree? I think so. Do other people think they should? It appears not everyone, which is understandable as forgiving someone is not always easy and apologizing is hard when your mind is clouded by emotions or if you're unaware of what you did.

Finally, let's remember that maturity, respect, and calm attitudes can be a tough thing to learn as they all are choices that have to be actively made everytime a situation presents itself for them to be challenged. No one can be that way all the time 24/7, everyone has a breaking point. But we should always strive to work towards that with active listening and thinking, whether you are the perceived instigator or victim. This comes from the world of mental health recovery, but can and should be applied to most all other aspects of life. A topic like this does not have a clear and readable right or wrong, it's very grey and I think we all need to remember that.

I moved this to last week's thread from the newer one because this argument really doesn't need to continue into the new thread, at least not until an actual comic is seen and there's more to go on. -Method
« Last Edit: 19 Aug 2017, 21:46 by Method of Madness »
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