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Arthur

Bubbles

Charlotte

Iris

Leda

May (as a fellow volunteer)(awkwardness ensues)

Melon

Pintsize

PT410X

Punchbot

Spookybot in an ingenious/terrible disguise

Station

Toastbot

one of Pintsize's friends who have the same sort of chassis

Gordon

some other character I forgot (please name them)

[DannyboyTheDane]

I didn't want to revive the previous discussion, but with this new development, my five cents seem entirely appropriate.

What bothered me most at what I thought was the end of the arc (as Cornelius so rightly points out, a lot of us were too quick to jump the gun there) was that the message felt very one-sided, which gave me this vibe of "this is the arc where Winslow learns about privilege" preachiness. And while learning about privilege is obviously a good and important thing, the perceived approach seemed to me to lack the skillful nuance that Jeph is so great at in portraying difficult social situations. I think somebody (can't remember who, sorry!) hit the nail on the head with the classic comic book "very special episode" comparison, since that is what it was starting to feel a bit like to me.

Of course, with today's comic, I and my fellow doubters were proven utterly and entirely wrong. That'll teach us to doubt Jeph!

[Case]

Whelp ... 

[NemesisDancer]

I love today's comic - it's a great example of how talented Jeph is at portraying emotion and tone of voice. When I read it I thought Hannelore seemed close to tears in the fourth panel, and then realised it was because of the extra bit of shine in her eye and the fact that the text in the speech bubble looks slightly smaller (not sure whether it actually is or whether I'm seeing things ).

Very happy the plot was resolved this way as well - I did feel like May needed a telling-off, even though I could understand her perspective, as it was unfair to take her frustration out on Winslow.

[Cornelius]

When I read it I thought Hannelore seemed close to tears in the fourth panel, and then realised it was because of the extra bit of shine in her eye and the fact that the text in the speech bubble looks slightly smaller (not sure whether it actually is or whether I'm seeing things ).

You know, looking at it again, you might not be wrong, with her being close to tears. I think she really does take it to heart to that extent, considering her own struggle to make friends. She really is a peace keeper, and I seem to remember one of the first times we saw her asserting herself, was to break up an argument.

[snufflebottoms]

I love Hanners because despite all of her insecurities and mental illness, she is one of the most mature in the whole group.

She calls people out but she also apologizes herself and she really does forgive other people (I'm looking at crazy Clinton). Not to mention, that you can tell this was scary for her to do.

Also, the cookies was a great humor at the end.

[Tova]

I can't quite interpret May's apparent utter shock in panel two. Which is she more startled by; that Winslow would do charity work, or that he wouldn't say so?

In any case, panel five reads like the beginnings of the "oh i'm a dick" realization that May sorely needs.

I think panel two is in fact the beginnings of that realisation.

[Case]

I imagine Hanners to be rather soft-spoken, which normally seems to be taken as an invitation by the more volatile members of society to interrupt - and yet May doesn't. I guess Hannelore has such an intense sincerity and honesty that her soft words ring louder than many people's hollering. 


I love May's "Just got steamrollered by a very polite, friendly lady who tried her best to see the best in me"-face in panel 5. 

[BenRG]

@ Case,

May has previously shown an extreme level of respect for Hannelore because of whose daughter she is and has clearly wanted to impress her. She is one person that she'd never interrupt and whose disappointment in her behaviour would be a profound and personal blow.

I find myself wondering if May is the visible tip of a semi-religious tendency amongst some AIs who venerate Dr John Ellicott-Chatham either as The Creator or some tool of a higher power and who, because of who she is, hold a special respect for Hannelore.

[zisraelsen]

No one else is gonna say it? I'm gonna have to be the one to point it out? [Sigh] alright, I will.

$4.97 Is a crazy expensive price for a package of cookies Hannelore you're being had by a convenience store

[Neko_Ali]

To be honest? Not really. If anything that price is too low for a convenience stores. Pepperidge Farm cookies are stupidly expensive, especially for how few you get in a bag. But darn it if they aren't worth it. They're still an occasional indulgence for me though.

[zisraelsen]

In which case Hannelore you're being had by Pepperidge Farm

[Zebediah]

Convenience stores always jack up the prices on everything. Convenience comes at a cost.

[JoeCovenant]

Ahhh... vindication.
Hanners yer a STAR! 

[DannyboyTheDane]

When sweet, gentle, as-non-confrontational-as-humanly-and-robotly-possible Hannelore lectures you, it carries weight. I love how bald she is about it (also a sign of her own development) - "Of course he apologized. He's a good person." She subtlely calls out May's view and treatment of Winslow as a dick.

I also love how, as oddtail points out, May's initial wording suggests she hasn't really considered Winslow's feelings in this - it's all about her; but afterwards we see what strikes me as quite possibly the most humbled we've ever seen May - I think Hannelore really got through to her and made her think about how her behaviour affects people.

Also, the comedic end was brilliant, and now I want cookies. Damn it.

[themacnut]

When sweet, gentle, as-non-confrontational-as-humanly-and-robotly-possible Hannelore lectures you, it carries weight. I love how bald she is about it (also a sign of her own development) - "Of course he apologized. He's a good person." She subtlely calls out May's view and treatment of Winslow as a dick.

And subtlety from Hannelore is probably the only way to get that message through to May - anyone else directly confronting her about it would get her defensive and digging in her heels, and probably less likely to even speak to Winslow again. It's also good that Jeph hasn't forgotten that Winslow's not the only one in the wrong here.

[dilbert719]

THERE we go. That's what this arc was needing, and I'm somewhat annoyed at myself for getting irritated by the seeming one-sidedness rather than giving it time to play out, but it really looked like we weren't ever going to get to this half of the equation. With Winslow having been called out for his blind spot, and May having been called out for her self-centeredness, it feels like we'll get some real character progress, instead of (what at least a couple posts over the past week or so have called) "a very special episode." Glad to see that Jeph gave both characters what they needed: Winslow, being the softer and more oblivious type, needed to have the clue bat embedded directly in his logic processor so he could learn to deal with more aggressive types, while May, the proverbial bull in a china shop, was forced to slow down and be introspective by someone we know she very strongly wants the approval of.

Also yes, $4.97 is both an insane price and absolutely what I'd be prepared to pay for mint (or orange) Milanos. Nom.

[shanejayell]

Aww.

Tho I hope May does NOT tell Winslow that Hannelore told her about his volunteering. He DID want her not to know. Anyway...

[Emperor Norton]

I approve.

[St.Clair]

oh, wow.

Thank you, God Hanners Jeph.  That's exactly what was needed.  Or what I needed, at least.

[DannyboyTheDane]

I bought cookies. Curse you, Hanners, you are turning me to sin.

[Shjade]

Of course, with today's comic, I and my fellow doubters were proven utterly and entirely wrong. That'll teach us to doubt Jeph!

There's nothing wrong with having disagreements with an author over their work. Criticism, etc.

But I hope next time people will at LEAST wait until he's done writing the thing before acting like they've been struck a mortal blow and are eternally wronged.

Edit: This also likely isn't the end of this arc. We don't know how May's going to follow up with Winslow yet, or what kind of work he'll be doing. It's ongoing.

[brasca]

I love Hanners because despite all of her insecurities and mental illness, she is one of the most mature in the whole group.

She calls people out but she also apologizes herself and she really does forgive other people (I'm looking at crazy Clinton). Not to mention, that you can tell this was scary for her to do.

Also, the cookies was a great humor at the end.

She's come a long way from threatening to ruin someone that hurt her friends and this likely made an impression on May.

[DannyboyTheDane]

Of course, with today's comic, I and my fellow doubters were proven utterly and entirely wrong. That'll teach us to doubt Jeph!

There's nothing wrong with having disagreements with an author over their work. Criticism, etc.

But I hope next time people will at LEAST wait until he's done writing the thing before acting like they've been struck a mortal blow and are eternally wronged.

Edit: This also likely isn't the end of this arc. We don't know how May's going to follow up with Winslow yet, or what kind of work he'll be doing. It's ongoing.

Of course, disagreements with an author are perfectly fine! Like you say, the problem was that we were too quick to criticise; a pitfall of the medium, I imagine - getting the story one piece a day leaves us time to form opinions at every step which evidently can turn out to be very premature.

As for my joking comment about doubting, my point was that since Jeph is known to handle such topics with great care and nuance, we should have been even more wary of so quickly jumping to the conclusion that such was not the case here.

Heck, the only thing in the whole comic I remember truly bothering me was Veronica's humiliation conga through her son's life after his break-up, something which she was never called out on except by Marten himself, upon which she scolded him for it ... and he not only accepted it, but actually felt better afterwards. But I'm getting off topic now.

[castn]

Aaw, Hanners is the best.

I don't think May was at fault for checking Winslow's privilege but Hanner's interaction with May definitely points out the flaw in how May behaves when she's offended - i.e. if she wants to actually have friends, she needs to put the effort into maintaining friendships. Being rude is one thing when you have no intention of being friends with the person whose privilege you've just checked but May is a part of the social circle now so she can't just trample on people's feelings without reciprocating an apology.

[Case]

Heck, the only thing in the whole comic I remember truly bothering me was Veronica's humiliation conga through her son's life after his break-up, something which she was never called out on except by Marten himself, upon which she scolded him for it ... and he not only accepted it, but actually felt better afterwards. But I'm getting off topic now.

Parents - can't live with them, wouldn't exist without them.

[Cornelius]

Of course, disagreements with an author are perfectly fine! Like you say, the problem was that we were too quick to criticise; a pitfall of the medium, I imagine - getting the story one piece a day leaves us time to form opinions at every step which evidently can turn out to be very premature.

A pitfall, perhaps, though I prefer to see it as an opportunity. Like the discussion or not, it did give a wealth of feedback, which you don't necessarily get in other media. Most other forms of story telling either are too fast paced, or need to present later chunks of narrative at a time. If someone should be So inclined, this medium seems admirably suited to make a narrative custom fit to its specific audience. It would take careful monitoring of the reactions and their respective arguments, thing, and hence, a lot of time and effort. A downside of going so, would mean, however, that out would be a rather large challenge to write longer story arcs coherently.

Mind, I'm not saying or even trying to imply that it plays a part in Jeph's creative process. It's just a reflection on the possible advantages of the medium, and nothing more.

[Larm Hargraven]

I think the development and discussions in the forums are actually a good thing. It's just a longer form of the same thought processes people who are critiquing a film series or musical. Instead though, we get to also then converge to one medium to discuss what we think so far and postulate what's going to happen/what we want to happen.

I hope it isn't me, but when I watch a movie, I'm constantly running a million theories, plots, and opinions of it from start to finish. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. And it's not overall, I could be right on a character development but wrong on a plot point, etc. etc.

I like people discussing the topic of privilege. It's seen as a very touchy egg-shell-walking conversation piece but is very important as society evolves. 100 years ago we were debating women voting as the industrial age was in full swing and locomotion was becoming the norm, 100 before that it was rights for previously owned slaves and their children as steam boats and the recently invented cotton gin allowed for faster travel and quicker means of production. Convenience and social rights have evolved side by side throughout history and as we get closer and closer to an age where manual labor isn't our main focus, we can turn out minds towards arts, literature, and other topics of such.

While, yes, some posts teetered into accusatory/instigating, but that's expected when it's such a controversial (again in the neutral term,) and eccentrically viewed issue. Emotions rise and a want to make sure your view is understood and accepted as valid is very tough to NOT get excitable about.

I think what this comic line proved was that this community, as a whole, is able to at least handle these discussions civilly and with discourse that doesn't result in in-fighting and insults. That and because the mods have their ever so powerful and big ban hammers in case it does

[Tova]

I'm glad to see you're all mollified now, oh ye of little faith.

I like people discussing the topic of privilege. It's seen as a very touchy egg-shell-walking conversation piece but is very important as society evolves.

Isn't it, though! I've seen how just speaking the word out loud can either press people's buttons or make them hold their breath.

[Kugai]

It certainly gave May something to think about, which is what I think Hanners wants.

At least she didn't loose her Biscuit   

[Emperor Norton]

Aaw, Hanners is the best.

I don't think May was at fault for checking Winslow's privilege but Hanner's interaction with May definitely points out the flaw in how May behaves when she's offended - i.e. if she wants to actually have friends, she needs to put the effort into maintaining friendships. Being rude is one thing when you have no intention of being friends with the person whose privilege you've just checked but May is a part of the social circle now so she can't just trample on people's feelings without reciprocating an apology.

Your level of friendship with someone should not be a requirement for you to treat them with the same respect you wish to be treated. There are ways to get people to understand their privilege that do not require attacking them. If you get hurt, and lash out and attack someone, you should probably apologize, whether you want to be friends with the person or not. Because they are a human being and if you want people to be treated with respect, you should do the same.

Either it was the wrong thing to do, and you need to apologize, or it was the right thing to do, and you owe no apology. Your friendship level or desired friendship level with the person does not enter into the equation. Doing otherwise is saying that you aren't apologizing because you hurt them, but because you want something from them (their friendship).

EDIT: This is specifically addressing a well-meaning person being thoughtless. Be as rude as you want to Nazis, they are actively making the choice to be shitty.

[Is it cold in here?]

(new comic, nr 3553) Way to go Hanners! And I think this is the right way; May is still learning how to deal with things, mostly by Momo, but now from others as well. Her rather baffled look shows she never thought about that.

And uhm, is it just me or do I detect a hint of release the virus in Hanners eyes?

It is not just you! That could have been mere earnestness but I thought I saw claws coming out. It would be in character. Remember what has been in common among all the occasions when Hannelore has turned into She-Hulk?

I wonder how much Winslow has helped Hannelore. She was in pretty bad shape despite having him for a companion, and she should have responded very well to having an AI friend given her childhood.

Welcome SotFX!

[Tova]

Something I just thought of. It's interesting that May's very first words to Hanners were to apologise for yelling at Winslow, but it hadn't occurred to her that perhaps Winslow is the one she should be apologising to.

[castn]

Your level of friendship with someone should not be a requirement for you to treat them with the same respect you wish to be treated. There are ways to get people to understand their privilege that do not require attacking them. If you get hurt, and lash out and attack someone, you should probably apologize, whether you want to be friends with the person or not. Because they are a human being and if you want people to be treated with respect, you should do the same.

Either it was the wrong thing to do, and you need to apologize, or it was the right thing to do, and you owe no apology. Your friendship level or desired friendship level with the person does not enter into the equation. Doing otherwise is saying that you aren't apologizing because you hurt them, but because you want something from them (their friendship).

EDIT: This is specifically addressing a well-meaning person being thoughtless. Be as rude as you want to Nazis, they are actively making the choice to be shitty.

I don't think May being mean/rude to Winslow is an "attack", which is a word I would reserve for something much more serious than being rudely called out on your ignorance. We have to agree to disagree on the point, because I do inherently believe that wanting a friendship causes us to make exceptions to the default manner with which we otherwise treat strangers or acquaintances (and that there's nothing morally wrong with the default being 'rude'). But I'm not saying May won't find it better for her well-being to embrace these exceptions. It's just healthier to be nice to people, sometimes, especially when they mean well.

Something I just thought of. It's interesting that May's very first words to Hanners were to apologise for yelling at Winslow, but it hadn't occurred to her that perhaps Winslow is the one she should be apologising to.

I think it's interesting that her phrasing makes Winslow sound like a friend of a friend - sorry for yelling at your friend. Maybe May didn't realise that Winslow considers her a proper friend until this interaction with Hanners?

[Shjade]

Something I just thought of. It's interesting that May's very first words to Hanners were to apologise for yelling at Winslow, but it hadn't occurred to her that perhaps Winslow is the one she should be apologising to.

It would seem to suggest she's apologizing not so much for yelling at Winslow - either feeling justified about that, or that it shouldn't have caused enough harm to merit apologizing for it - but for potentially upsetting Hannelore indirectly as a result. Whether or not she considers Winslow a friend, as in castn's interpretation above, it seems like she's expecting the real harm to have been to Hannelore and her well-known sensitivity rather than Winslow. Which, accurate or not, I could see as a plausible interpretation of events, particularly to someone who isn't intimately familiar with either of them.

Either way, though, it's a clear indicator of May's general awareness/empathy. She might act like she doesn't give a shit about anyone else's feelings more than is in fact true of her state of mind. (Or, just as likely if not moreso, acts without thinking a lot of the time, like she has issues with- Oh, right.)

[Emperor Norton]

How is the default manner you treat people being rude not messed up?

How can we want anyone to care about our struggles, how can we demand people care about anyone who isn't like them when we don't care enough about anyone who isn't in our friend bubble to treat them with respect?

You talk about calling people on their privilege, but why should they care how it impacts you if you clearly don't care how what you do impacts them?B

[Shjade]

Well, for one, it's unlikely your privilege only has an impact on one other person in the world, so even if you think the person addressing you about the issue is rude and someone you have no reason to respect or care about, what they're saying is probably still true and relevant to other people you do deign to care about and, therefore, is worth considering on a larger scale.

For two, May's an asshole. Of course, a fair amount of the time, assholes act the way they do to cover their own issues - we've all got 'em - and while that isn't an excuse for their behavior, it's worth understanding where they're coming from to get past that (as Dale did in their initial interactions...eventually...with great patience). It's messed up to be rude to everyone who isn't in your circle of exceptions ("NICE LIST DOT TEE EX TEE"), but hey, some people are messed up. That doesn't mean "lie down and take it," but you can't expect everyone to strictly adhere to a set list of social expectations, either.

That's not saying "if you don't hang out with them anyway you're an intolerant jerk," either, 'cause no. It's saying, "shit's complicated."

[castn]

How is the default manner you treat people being rude not messed up?

How can we want anyone to care about our struggles, how can we demand people care about anyone who isn't like them when we don't care enough about anyone who isn't in our friend bubble to treat them with respect?

You talk about calling people on their privilege, but why should they care how it impacts you if you clearly don't care how what you do impacts them?B

Does someone have to be polite to you, for you to care about them being discriminated against? Being rude or being a douchebag... yeah that's bad manners. But privilege is different, privilege is the disparity between someone who is and someone who isn't being routinely shat on by a system from which you benefit. Rudeness is micro, person-to-person. Privilege is macro, occurring between demographics.

idk maybe it's just how I feel about rudeness in general. It's horrible but it's not as bad as actual discrimination, and it doesn't disqualify the individual nor the entire demographic from being treated as a human being by systemic forces (government, societal standards, etc).

[Emperor Norton]

I never said that it didn't make sense for them to do. But they are doing it out of damage, not out of a moral right.

It isn't "OK" to by default treat everyone rude. Yes, some people do, and it can be complicated, especially if they have a past that caused that kind of attitude, but to say it is morally fine is going beyond saying "I understand" it is saying "I condone it."

I can understand some people are acerbic because of circumstances that happened to them. But that doesn't mean I think it is OK for them to also damage others. Abusers usually have abuse in their past. That doesn't make the abuse OK, even if it does make it understandable.

We should have compassion for people. Wanting something from them (friendship), should not be the reason we care about their feelings. Empathy, even for people we don't know, should be the norm.

[Emperor Norton]

idk maybe it's just how I feel about rudeness in general. It's horrible but it's not as bad as actual discrimination, and it doesn't disqualify the individual nor the entire demographic from being treated as a human being by systemic forces (government, societal standards, etc).

Of course it doesn't! But I also don't subscribe to a mindset that "if they aren't my friends it doesn't matter if I hurt their feelings". Which is a dangerous mindset. That is the mindset that says that your bubble matters, the other doesn't.

And that belief that my actions should be designed around the idea that everyone's feelings matter is WHY I care about discrimination.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean 'hurt their feelings through being rude/mean'. Some people get their feelings hurt just by being told that hey, they're wrong about something, or perhaps a bit ignorant about something. I can't protect them from that, they have to learn somehow. But I can be not an ass while I help them through it.

[DannyboyTheDane]

Reading a bit ahead from May's introduction arc, I stumbled upon this strip from when Claire got her ears pierced:

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2540

A funny little parallel.

[castn]

Of course it doesn't! But I also don't subscribe to a mindset that "if they aren't my friends it doesn't matter if I hurt their feelings". Which is a dangerous mindset. That is the mindset that says that your bubble matters, the other doesn't.

And that belief that my actions should be designed around the idea that everyone's feelings matter is WHY I care about discrimination.

I wasn't trying to say that other people outside of your friend group don't matter. I meant that we treat acquaintances/strangers one way, and we treat our friends in another way. That's not a rude-or-polite situation. It could be a polite-or-even-more-polite situation. Wanting to be someone's friend gives you an incentive to treat them better than you usually would, or to better accord yourself to the way they act. The problem with May is that her stranger-default is rude as hell.

Hurt feelings matter but systematic mistreatment matters even more. Winslow prioritised the latter instead of getting mad at May for the former, which is a much more reasonable mindset than most people exhibit irl.

[Emperor Norton]

Look, I'm not saying I'm perfect. I fail quite a lot. I can get hot headed. I can snap at people, friend, family, stranger.

The truth is though, that when I do, it IS a failure on my part. It isn't morally OK to treat any well meaning person rudely. I owe them an apology whether they are a friend or not.

Either I was justified in being rude (for instance, the dude is a nazi, in which case I'm very justified) and I do not owe anyone an apology, or I wasn't justified, and I should apologize.

If I do anything different I'm not apologizing for doing something wrong, I'm apologizing because I want them to be my friend. It is an apology designed to get something from them.

I can be dead right about what I said, and still be an asshole. And if I'm being an asshole to someone who isn't trying to hurt me, I'm wrong.

[Case]

Hurt feelings matter but systematic mistreatment matters even more. Winslow prioritised the latter instead of getting mad at May for the former, which is a much more reasonable mindset than most people exhibit irl.

Mixing interpersonal interactions on those on societal scales here, while implicitly treating them as if they were the same, or even of the same order.

What you describe is tribalism. It's been our default setting for tens of thousands of years. There's persuasive theories about how it is at the heart of the very discrimination you abhor. And it has very little to do with privilege theory.

[castn]

Look, I'm not saying I'm perfect. I fail quite a lot. I can get hot headed. I can snap at people, friend, family, stranger.

The truth is though, that when I do, it IS a failure on my part. It isn't morally OK to treat any well meaning person rudely. I owe them an apology whether they are a friend or not.

Either I was justified in being rude (for instance, the dude is a nazi, in which case I'm very justified) and I do not owe anyone an apology, or I wasn't justified, and I should apologize.

If I do anything different I'm not apologizing for doing something wrong, I'm apologizing because I want them to be my friend. It is an apology designed to get something from them.

I can be dead right about what I said, and still be an asshole. And if I'm being an asshole to someone who isn't trying to hurt me, I'm wrong.

Yeah, I think I get what you mean. It's an upstanding way to behave but May is just not an upstanding character. And I'm not inclined to judge her for being an asshole now because I wasn't inclined to do so when she was an asshole in the past.

Like.... I don't like framing rudeness in terms or what's right and wrong, because I think that what is or isn't rude depends so much on personal/cultural context. So if I sound harsh about social niceties it's mostly because I kind of see it a side-issue compared to the topic of privilege. I would find it easier to forgive May's rudeness than to forgive someone who reacted badly to having their privilege called out.

But yeah, apologising to someone to keep their friendship doesn't seem especially bad to me? It just seems to make sense, sacrificing pride or whatever because you really like someone and want to keep them in your lives. That could just be me, though, maybe I have a fucked up perspective on relationships lmao.

[castn]

Hurt feelings matter but systematic mistreatment matters even more. Winslow prioritised the latter instead of getting mad at May for the former, which is a much more reasonable mindset than most people exhibit irl.

Mixing interpersonal interactions on those on societal scales here, while implicitly treating them as if they were the same, or even of the same order.

I wasn't mixing, I was differentiating. As in... hurt feelings and systematic mistreatment are on two waaaay different levels, it seemed ridiculous to me that people were mad at May when the subject of privilege was more paramount! But I'm sorry if I confused those two. I realise it's possible to condemn May on an interpersonal level, but feel vindicated by her outrage in terms of societal privilege.

[Tova]

I'm probably not quite following this conversation correctly, but are you accusing Winston of systemic mistreatment? Because I don't see it.

[TheEvilDog]

Wow, we're not getting away from this maelstrom of a topic any time soon, are we?

[castn]

I'm probably not quite following this conversation correctly, but are you accusing Winston of systemic mistreatment? Because I don't see it.

I'm not/wasn't! I felt like people were mad at May and I felt bad because she has systematic mistreatment on her plate to deal with, and indignation for Winslow was just an interpersonal issue. This whole conversation has gone on for too long, I've lost sight of what I was talking about and all the points are starting to look the same tbh. Didn't mean to get so worked up!

[Tova]

It's almost like May felt that Winslow was just property and was apologizing for "damaging property".  "Sorry I yelled at your buddy that thing you owned.

I don't see this interpretation either.

@castn: I feel the same way as you do, I've read through the most recent posts and I honestly can't figure out what everyone is disagreeing over. Everyone is, IMO, getting caught up over the way people are expressing things, but I feel like there is more agreement than disagreement. 

[Emperor Norton]

The thing is, Winslow learned and was moving forward. There isn't much left to address on his side. I mentioned from the beginning that him learning is the right reaction and that I think his arc was well handled.

There isn't a lot to discuss concerning it because it felt as though he misstepped, unintentionally hurt someone, realized his mistake, and worked to fix it. There is no reason to get indignant about in his situation.

The thing is, you feel like people are unfair to May while dismissing Winslow's actions, on my side it felt like many people were dismissing May's actions. In fact, my response to the comic with Hanners was "I approve". That was it. I approve of May finally being told that, hey Winslow misstepped but you also were kind of a jerk. That was all I felt needed to be done from the beginning. It isn't hating May, it is that it felt like a one-sided narrative.

The only thing I object to is the idea that being rude as default isn't morally wrong. People can do morally wrong things without being bad people. We all make mistakes. We all do things that are not morally perfect. I don't hate May, I just want her to grow past being as self-absorbed as she is.