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The Claireten Wedding

9 (3.5%)

An exploration of AI childhood

29 (11.2%)

Canon polyamorous relationship

22 (8.5%)

Crisis at Coffee of Doom (financial or staffing)

5 (1.9%)

Emily's origin story

28 (10.8%)

Hannelore seriously working on her AI charity

14 (5.4%)

Lots of Spookybot cameos pointing towards an Agenda of some sort

15 (5.8%)

Faye and Bubbles' big break in publicity terms may be a problem in disguise

19 (7.3%)

The Daligold Wedding!!! (With Momo and May as bridesmaids!!!)

11 (4.2%)

Angus returns and wants Faye back

19 (7.3%)

Corporate shenanigans at Ellicott-Chatham Incorporated

19 (7.3%)

Sam IS struggling at school; the main cast try to help

14 (5.4%)

After an unspecified issue, Marten, Faye, Bubbles, Claire and Hannelore have to move into a new house

23 (8.9%)

First night at the new (and LEGAL) Ultimate Robot Fighting League

26 (10%)

Other (please describe in comments)

6 (2.3%)

Total Members Voted: 81

[hakko504]

Question: As Tilly refers to herself with neutral pronouns, what is the proper word for them in a relationship? Neither boyfriend nor girlfriend seems right, and I'm stuck thinking of a word that would be suitable in this situation.

Skickat från min SGP611 via Tapatalk

[TheEvilDog]

So it's not as simple as "Use thou when you would use I/she/he, thee when you would use me/her/him, thy when you would use my/her/his, and thine for mine/hers/his"?

But we (all English speakers, not just non-binary folk or the denzians of this forum) are struggling with third (spoken of) person pronouns and thee/thou/thine is second (spoken to) person.  Using "them" just shifts the awkward bit from number to person.  (I can still hear Sister Mary Knucklewhacker making us chant, "Person, Number, Gender, Case.)

No one faction gets to declare changes to languages, especially English - the larger community will have to arrive at consensus.

But by the same token, the community doesn't get to decide how to define how a person gets referred to. If someone wishes to be referred to as "They/Them", that's okay. Its certainly easier than to use that than to force another word to be used.

English, as with any other language, is not set in stone. It is a dynamic construct, subject to various outside influences, more so considering it is the lingua franca of the world right now. The meaning and use of words change constantly, so what if someone wants to use a neutral term? Why should we force them to use another term? What right do we have to ask that of them? I should imagine that we can be mature enough to realise when we should go with the flow when dealing with anyone.

[gajatko]

Uhm I'm a long-reader of the comic but new to forum and I'm amazed what's going on here. It's second time I'm here. Previously there was a discussion whether Sam will be raped or not, now some gender-related stuff which I wouldn't even think of. Tally's clearly a girl and grammar-nazi or whatever. IMHO plot's nice but tiring a bit and I feel that it's good it comes to an end finally.

[snufflebottoms]

Question: As Tilly refers to herself with neutral pronouns, what is the proper word for them in a relationship? Neither boyfriend nor girlfriend seems right, and I'm stuck thinking of a word that would be suitable in this situation.

Skickat frĺn min SGP611 via Tapatalk

significant other

[Perfectly Reasonable]

I guess that's less awkward than "They're my themfriend", which is what I was about to offer....


Relentless Onward!
Hannelore has strengthened her spine and burned a bridge.
Beatrice has had  'using people as tools' thrown in her face. To put on the mantelpiece with 'neglectful parenting'.
Tilly is absorbing fluids.

But wait! What do I hear? Out of the sunrise... It's...
Sara! Riding an allosaurus! Yay!

[Wombat]

Uhm I'm a long-reader of the comic but new to forum and I'm amazed what's going on here. It's second time I'm here. Previously there was a discussion whether Sam will be raped or not, now some gender-related stuff which I wouldn't even think of. Tally's clearly a girl and grammar-nazi or whatever. IMHO plot's nice but tiring a bit and I feel that it's good it comes to an end finally.

Tilly isn't a girl; that's kind of why the whole conversation is occurring. They're non-binary and use they/them pronouns.

Personally I haven't been into this arc, but that happens sometimes. I'm just more interested in other characters and the relationships between them.

As far as terms for NB people in relationships, "partner" is pretty popular, and there are other ones like SO, datemate, sweetheart, beloved, etc. which really depend on the person/relationship. But generally I hear "partner" for a variety of relationship configurations.

[Welu]

Note: There is a thread in DISCUSS about gender and language.

[Is it cold in here?]

Uhm I'm a long-reader of the comic but new to forum and I'm amazed what's going on here. It's second time I'm here. Previously there was a discussion whether Sam will be raped or not, now some gender-related stuff which I wouldn't even think of. Tally's clearly a girl and grammar-nazi or whatever. IMHO plot's nice but tiring a bit and I feel that it's good it comes to an end finally.

Welcome, new people!

The guy who was creepy about Sam has been sent flying through the exit door. I do not remember whether we opened the door before throwing him through it.

Talking about gender variance is much more of a normal forum thing. I urge listening with an open mind. Tilly is clearly in a girl type body, but what got put into that body seems not to have been a girl.

Oh my. This is a weird thought. Tilly never actually said they are non binary. What if they are just using non gendered pronouns on principle? Or to be a grammar troll?

[gajatko]

This was my exact though. She likes language puns and refers to Hanners as "ma'am". I guess she thinks that "they" is more formal or sth like that. I don't know anything about LGB so I always look for the most simple and straight-forward explanation of things. (I didn't know any non-straight person in my 28 year life experience, except one gay who was a complete moron).

[Is it cold in here?]

I think my idea is weird and that the most simple and straightforward explanation is that Tilly is non binary and chose their pronouns to fit that.

[Shjade]

Question: As Tilly refers to herself with neutral pronouns, what is the proper word for them in a relationship? Neither boyfriend nor girlfriend seems right, and I'm stuck thinking of a word that would be suitable in this situation.

Skickat frĺn min SGP611 via Tapatalk

significant other

Alternatives: partner, lover (if applicable), spouse (if married), soulmate... there's actually a fair range of names and titles people give their intimates if you just stop and think about it for a moment from a perspective other than "but why don't you call them what I expect you to call them?"

It's generally helpful to think about these kinds of things from a perspective of openness rather than one of negatives, ie: "not-boyfriend." Encourages different thought processes.

[OldGoat]

But by the same token, the community doesn't get to decide how to define how a person gets referred to.

The person spoken of, the third person, is assumed to be absent.  Referring to a person present in the third person is usually rude in the extreme and meant as an insult.  Only extremely weird or pompous asses (true, lots of overlap there) refer to themselves in the third person unless it's done with humorous intent.  The Community of Speakers of the language in question does indeed settle on how the person spoken of is referred to.

Meet me in the thread Wulu pointed to if you'd like to continue.

[cloudatlatl]

While I've been no fan of this story arc so far, today's was the first comic in a while that felt emotionally real to me.  Did anyone else get that sense?

[Is it cold in here?]

Hmm. For me the anger felt real. Hannelore breaking down crying on a stranger's shoulder was unusual enough to jolt my suspension of disbelief, though it makes emotional sense.

[JimC]

significant other

Except that in the Social work trade that has an entirely different meaning.

[pwhodges]

Tally's clearly a girl and grammar-nazi or whatever.

Respecting people’s wishes (how to be addressed or referred to in this case) is nothing to do with being a grammar-nazi. Nor is it affected by Tilley’s “obviously” being a girl.

[Zebediah]

Exactly. Tilly’s body may be female, but Tilly’s mind is apparently... something else.

[Mr_Rose]

As someone pointed out on Twitter, if you’re the sort of person that gets annoyed that people still call Aragorn’s reforged sword Narsil when it’s actually called Andúril then you can surely use someone’s requested pronouns. Or, hell, how about their name? It’s Tilly, not Tally or Tolly or Tiffy or….

[MrNumbers]

You mean Toffee?

[snufflebottoms]

significant other

Except that in the Social work trade that has an entirely different meaning.

???

[OldGoat]

You mean Toffee?

"The slightly less abrasive than before One," or, alternatively, "The slightly more sympathetic than before One."

Seriously, for as clueless as they was [that's as euphonic as fingernails on a slate but I'll admit it does flag "they" as singular], acquiring even one clue is a major change for Tilly, thus making them [nowhere near as grating as "they was"] a dynamic character.

[Gyrre]

Aaaand there it all came crashing down, the enormity of what she just did, the fact that she hoped so long for something that wasn't there... Poor Hannelore.

Also, I wonder what it says that she actually is OK with touching Tilly. I wonder if maybe they got better along than it initially seemed after the boundaries were put up.

I'm guessing that's to show just how emotionally distraught Hannelore is.

We did have that comic where Hanners came home from a particularly stressful day at work and actually contemplated just going to sleep in her work clothes without showering.

[Case]

Tally's clearly a girl and grammar-nazi or whatever.

Respecting people’s wishes (how to be addressed or referred to in this case) is nothing to do with being a grammar-nazi. Nor is it affected by Tilley’s “obviously” being a girl.

It's depressing that this actually needs to be said ...

[Case]

...
Meet me in the thread Wulu pointed to if you'd like to continue.

FYI

[OldGoat]

...
Meet me in the thread Wulu pointed to if you'd like to continue.

FYI

Most curious.

[Wombat]

You mean Toffee?

"The slightly less abrasive than before One," or, alternatively, "The slightly more sympathetic than before One."

Seriously, for as clueless as they was [that's as euphonic as fingernails on a slate but I'll admit it does flag "they" as singular], acquiring even one clue is a major change for Tilly, thus making them [nowhere near as grating as "they was"] a dynamic character.

I feel like this may upset you, but, uh, when using the singular "they," you still conjugate as you normally would with "they." "They were," "they like to read," "they laugh often."

This is making me think about character introductions where I liked the character right away vs. character introductions where it took a while. I feel like unfortunately Tilly doesn't seem overly similar in introduction style to any character I've ended up particularly fond of, but I think if they continue to develop like they have over the last few pages, I wouldn't mind them continuing to appear. I just don't see them becoming a fav.

[OldGoat]

You mean Toffee?

"The slightly less abrasive than before One," or, alternatively, "The slightly more sympathetic than before One."

Seriously, for as clueless as they was [that's as euphonic as fingernails on a slate but I'll admit it does flag "they" as singular], acquiring even one clue is a major change for Tilly, thus making them [nowhere near as grating as "they was"] a dynamic character.

I feel like this may upset you, but, uh, when using the singular "they," you still conjugate as you normally would with "they." "They were," "they like to read," "they laugh often."

Please, cite an authoritative source for this ruling.  Have we instituted L'académie anglaise?  If so, do they get spiffy uniforms with gold collars and swords, too, like the French?  Seriously, even if the NY Times Style Book says to write it that way, it's still awkward as hell when spoken.

[Tova]

I feel that the current arc contains two major themes.

The first is obviously Hanners' ongoing relationship with her neglectful mother. This story has been simmering in the background and will likely continue. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

The other is this ability Hanners has to empathise with someone who is initially unlikable. This is a good insight into her character. Incidentally, had Tillly been likeable upon their introduction, this story obviously would not have worked.

The spilling out of this theme onto these forums has only added an extra dimension to the story.

P.S. there is no "ruling" on any of this, as I'm sure you know. It's the most common usage at this time.

P.P.S. Why are you even asking for a source when you go on to say you'll ignore it anyway?

[Zebediah]

You mean Toffee?

"The slightly less abrasive than before One," or, alternatively, "The slightly more sympathetic than before One."

Seriously, for as clueless as they was [that's as euphonic as fingernails on a slate but I'll admit it does flag "they" as singular], acquiring even one clue is a major change for Tilly, thus making them [nowhere near as grating as "they was"] a dynamic character.

I feel like this may upset you, but, uh, when using the singular "they," you still conjugate as you normally would with "they." "They were," "they like to read," "they laugh often."

Please, cite an authoritative source for this ruling.  Have we instituted L'académie anglaise?  If so, do they get spiffy uniforms with gold collars and swords, too, like the French?  Seriously, even if the NY Times Style Book says to write it that way, it's still awkward as hell when spoken.

The “authoritative source” is the English language itself. “You” in modern English is both singular and plural, even though it originally was plural only. At some point “you” also became singular, replacing “thou”. But - and this is the important point - it is still conjugated as plural even in the singular form: “you are”, not “you is”. And this is the closest parallel that exists to singular “they”. So therefore, if we’re going to be consistent, it should be “they are” even in the singular form.

[Thrillho]

Please tread lightly around the subject of pronouns, folks. We're all for discussion and education and understanding, but we are primarily a safe space.

[Gyrre]

Ja ja, other forum, I'm posting this in both.


For all the people arguing about conjugation; take the side of your palms opposite your thumbs and place them on the sides of your head in front of your auricles (the wedge bit in front of your ear holes). Now say "they is" alloud.
.
.
.
Did you just cringe? How bad was it?

[Shjade]

Did you just cringe? How bad was it?

Considerably less bad than the cringing that occurred when I read a post about someone's condescension toward "non-standard" vernacular.

[Wombat]

Ja ja, other forum, I'm posting this in both.


For all the people arguing about conjugation; take the side of your palms opposite your thumbs and place them on the sides of your head in front of your auricles (the wedge bit in front of your ear holes). Now say "they is" alloud.
.
.
.
Did you just cringe? How bad was it?

Well, no, I didn't cringe; I believe "they is" is a proper construct in AAVE, which is not a dialect I speak, but also not one that's cringe-inducing. I suppose my main view is, "you continue to conjugate for 'they' in the way that you normally do," and what that means may vary for the speaker.

[TinPenguin]

I feel compelled to post this joke I just read. I take no credit.

Why did the non-binary prospector move west in 1849?
Because there was gold in them/their hills.

[Tova]

I think the random puns thread beat you to it.

[pwhodges]

Please, cite an authoritative source for this ruling.  Have we instituted L'académie anglaise?  If so, do they get spiffy uniforms with gold collars and swords, too, like the French? 

It’s not a ruling. It’s usage, both current and back as far as Chaucer.

Seriously, even if the NY Times Style Book says to write it that way, it's still awkward as hell when spoken.

I expect you’ll get used to it.

[TinPenguin]

I think the random puns thread beat you to it.

Well now, having a dedicated thread for puns is taking the fun out of life.

[bhtooefr]

Would you say that it's tying up your fun time?

[blt]

How long did it take you to weave that one in there?

[bhtooefr]

All I know is that if we keep it up, the moderators will be looming over us.

[Bad Superman]

Sooo... in the poll I took:

1: An exploration of AI childhood
I'd love to know more about this. How do AIs fit into different human societies? Do they have full human rights everywhere? They can fall in love, but can they develop a yearning for physical intimacy too? (I'm asking this mostly in relation of what could and could not develop between Faye and Bubbles) And what does an AI-prison (like the one May spent some time in) look like?

2: After an unspecified issue, Marten, Faye, Bubbles, Claire and Hannelore have to move into a new house
This one could actually be the start of many storylines. Will they search for a apartment together, or will they (be forced to) split up? Can they afford to do this? (Especially Faye and Bubbles are not exactly swimming in cash at the moment.) Such an event could serve as a shake-up, or even a soft reboot if you will. Lots of possibilities...

3: Other (please describe in comments)
Hmm... We haven't heard from Tortura in a long time... just saying...
Also, Bubbles past, maybe..?

[Tova]

All I know is that if we keep it up, the moderators will be looming over us.

They won't be too concerned. Eventually we will run out of material.

[blt]

I know.  I'm having to pull out some old jokes and they're getting  a bit threadbare.

On topic, I think Bubbles's past is a closed case at this point unfortunately.

[pwhodges]

Loom .. loom .. loom...

(probably something to do with the nine wines I just had with dinner.)

[Thrillho]

Let's put a pin in this and save it for the pun thread, eh?

[Tova]

What a wet blanket. 

[Is it cold in here?]

Re: AIs --

We know they have libidos and network based ways of expressing them.

That is a really good question about what their childhoods are like.

[mephron]

I've seen several cases of the "Always wanting to help" mindset in some people, and what I usually end up finding out is that these people have been in multiple situations where friends and family have been abundantly over-critical of everything they do, or constantly put down any efforts on their part of trying to help. I've heard cases of lectures or verbal abuse over things as small as putting the bow on a present in a "Incorrect" spot, or them being belittled because they didn't do a extremely specific thing that they were never told but "Should have just known".

This builds a self destructive personality of "It was my fault. I should be a better person and think of others more than myself". The end result is that they over-extend in trying to be useful to others, not just because they want to help, but because of some subconscious desire for SOMEONE to look at what they did and say "Good job" instead of pointing out another very minor flaw.

This is me, basically, and I have been sitting there looking at Tilly and going "Oh, hon, this is just going to be painful for you later, because you're stuck between someone who really doesn't need your help and someone who sees you as nothing more than a mobile iPhone, not even sentient, just expecting you to do something and being angry when it's a task you're not suited to".

But this is the best comment on Tilly and why she seems to be doing things that I've seen, so.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I have to say that the two 'confrontation' comics - #3637-3638 - greatly satisfied me.  We've known Beatrice to be cavalier with her daughter, and we've seen Hannelore put up with it basically because 'she's my mother and a total spaz but she's trying in her total-spaz way' - essentially, like I presume she thinks a good daughter ought to do.

It is extremely pleasing, however, to see that Hannelore has developed to where she well and truly cares about people and will not put up with her mother's overbearing crap when she's using both Hannelore and someone else for her own amoral purposes.

... on consideration, I think it possible that in the near future Hannelore may well act to remove her mother from any position of power or influence within Ellicott-Chatham Enterprises.  I do not think she would take her mother's place, but Hannelore is absolutely smart enough (and, I hope, wise enough) to expand her understanding of her mother's actions to her and Tilly into 'she does this to everyone; this state of affairs must not stand.'  It will be interesting to watch going forward.

[Tova]

Welcome, thoughtful new person!