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Total Members Voted: 55

[Is it cold in here?]

Anyone remember the details of Tai going behind the back of one lover? Did that woman think it was monogamous?

That happened?

The only big relationship upset I recall with Tai was her asking a lover to go monogamous and the lover kinda blowing up at her for it.

Found it. It's complicated.

[Is it cold in here?]

"Significant distress or impairment", k?

Does Emily experience clinically significant distress or impairment?

She's the one to ask of course. Without her input I think we could argue it either way.

[Case]

"Significant distress or impairment", k?

Does Emily experience clinically significant distress or impairment?

She's the one to ask of course. Without her input I think we could argue it either way.

Ok, I was a bit worried about that misunderstanding:

1) I chose OCD as an example, because I have personal experience with it. However, OCD is one of the illnesses where the afflicted themselves have a pretty good idea about "shit being significantly wrong"; intrusive thoughts in OCD are ego-dystonous, they are experienced by the afflicted as being alien to their own personality.

(An OCDer obsessing about hurting others will highly likely never actually hurt others, because even the thought is so distressing to them, to a degree that some choose voluntary social isolation to eliminate any risk of their ever hurting someone. With OCD, you know something is wrong. I obviously can't speak for every afflicted, but for me, there was no question about "significant distress" -> "HELLF***KINGYEAH! Something is definitely wrong here!" is what 16yo Case would have told you. I experienced the thoughts, their topics, their intensity, and their persistent intrusiveness as frightening, alien, inappropriate and bizarre.)

That doesn't mean that everybody experiencing any sort of mental health trouble will notice something is wrong, or be the first to notice. Not all mental illnesses are experienced as ego-dystonous. In fact, the wiki about "pathological jealousy" states that the feelings and thoughts are experienced as ego-syntonous - "it's not me who's acting inappropriate, the others are lying/have no clue". Or the afflicted may lack the capacity to evaluate their behaviour. I've read that many people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder don't seek help before their behaviour has had serious repercussions for them -> Getting fired from jobs, spouses leaving etc.

(There's one prominent psychiatrist who was intimately involved with creating the DSM-IV who objects to labelling Donald Trump as NPD for precisely this reason: Trump has never sought help for his behaviour, he does not seem distressed by it and apparently it works great for him.)

My statement is that I'd translate "(clinically) significant distress or impairment" as implying "Someone, either the afflicted themselves, or somebody in their social/professional circle tends to notice that something is seriously wrong"

Not every moody, obnoxious, self-obsessed female teenager suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder. Teenagers are sociopathic little monsters, what else is new? No, your sorting your record collection according to the Dewey Decimal system is probably not sufficient for a diagnosis with OCD, you're just a geeky librarian and that's one thing I like about you. No, I don't think you might 'have' ADHD, I think you should probably get more sleep.

2) Impairment is probably more of an objective criterion than distress. Even in cases where the afflicted themselves know something is wrong, they can reduce distress by arranging their lives in such a way as to avoid stressors. But that reduction of distress is bought with impairment -> you're giving up pieces of your life.

3) Notice the 'clinical' before the 'significant' - methinks that means: 'Significant in the opinion of a qualified mental health expert'. But getting an opinion from a qualified mental health expert usually implies that either the afflicted, or someone around them has come to the conclusion that "something is seriously wrong here". Shrinks don't usually wander the streets in search of people to diagnose with a mental illness - people come to them, not the other way round.


TL;DR - IICIH, get a copy of the DSM or ICD-10 and just browse through it. I promise you that there' at least one disorder whose symptoms make you go "Wait a minute ...". That could mean ... anything, really. I'd guess that most likely it means that you're a normal, healthy person.

Without her input I think we could argue it either way.

Ok, I ... think I have made clear my opinion that I have a problem with the "arguing either way", with "pathologizing weirdness". Made it clear several times, in fact.

Beyond that: Even an certified expert with tons of clinical experience - a.k.a. "person who can actually make a diagnosis about head-trouble whose opinion has more weight than that of the guy chewing off your ear in the bar next door" - could only ever diagnose Jeph. Far as I know, jwhouk, being an experienced counsellor, is the only forumite who comes even close to that.

Emily and Marigold are fictional characters. Even if Jeph would think that they are living with a mental health disorder - and I don't see evidence for that - all that anyone could possibly diagnose would be Jeph's idea of that disorder.

[themacnut]

Huh, I was expecting this comic to be Marigold going off like a volcano; guess Jeph is still doing the build-up to that point. Poor Dale, he has no idea of the minefield he just stepped into, and is probably unlikely to be able to defuse it before it all goes off.

This seems to be building to their first big-and-possibly-relationship-breaking fight. One possible ending of this is Marigold preemptively dumping Dale for cheating, and Dale being left standing there wondering what just happened.

[ckridge]

I, too, had expected Marigold to go right off, and, as often happens, I was wrong.

I think the primary narrative work in this strip is done by the drawing, particularly of Marigold's little anxious face in the first panel. She looks like she feels doomed, and that Dale isn't even to blame because he is making the rational choice. She looks like she is stating his case for him. Of course someone as wonderful as Dale belongs with someone as wonderful as Emily.

I hope that I am wrong again, because if Jeph is really doing this, it is both masterful and just too sad. If this is what he is doing, I might as well go off and read a Coetzee novel and cry myself to sleep.

Lucid despair might get her a long way if she decides to fight with everything in her power even though she is doomed to lose, but I don't want that to happen. I want her to flip her shit completely and throw a tantrum. Lucid determined despair is just too hard. She is only a kid.

[Morituri]

I'm not expecting Marigold to go off;  I'm expecting her to suffer and be afraid and not have any idea that there's a way to express her feelings without losing Dale, and turn it inward on herself until her guts are twisted around and she starts getting sick all the time. She's not in a place that's confident enough for an angry outburst, or even for cutting sarcasm.

[Case]

I disagree. Not everybody goes this far in that matter. Some people actually believe denials.

There's a ideal in law called "The Reasonable Person" focusing on how a typical person, with ordinary prudence, would act in certain circumstances.

Marigold in this instance is not a "reasonable person".

Not objecting to your characterization of Marigold (I think it's spot on) - just wanted to add that our capitalist/market economy/enter favouritetermhere societies put significant resources into ensuring that most women (and not a few men) feel precisely that way about themselves, their bodies, their behaviour, the degree of happiness/contentness. What better way to ensure there's demand for your product than by creating it? What easier way to create demand than by telling people they are deficient?

Yes, it is most definitely unreasonable, sometimes bordering on pathological even - but it's sadly also normal.

[Zebediah]

I’m hoping there’s a “Momo to the rescue” component to this story, because Momo is the one person who can tell Marigold what an idiot she’s being. (Well, May could and would do that too, but Momo is the one she would listen to.)

[Is it cold in here?]

So this started with someone suggesting Emily needs help.

She apparently didn't have friends before "We've adopted another one". Major impairment compared to baseline, and social isolation causes organic problems in the long run. That points one way.

Her employer, her friends, and everyone we've seen her dating do not seem concerned. That points the other way.

Case, would it help if I rephrased it as "not all weird people need help"? 'Cause that is what I'm trying to say. Emily is certainly weird. That's not by itself enough data to show mental illness.

[TheEvilDog]

I disagree. Not everybody goes this far in that matter. Some people actually believe denials.

There's a ideal in law called "The Reasonable Person" focusing on how a typical person, with ordinary prudence, would act in certain circumstances.

Marigold in this instance is not a "reasonable person".

Not objecting to your characterization of Marigold (I think it's spot on) - just wanted to add that our capitalist/market economy/enter favouritetermhere societies put significant resources into ensuring that most women (and not a few men) feel precisely that way about themselves, their bodies, their behaviour, the degree of happiness/contentness. What better way to ensure there's demand for your product than by creating it? What easier way to create demand than by telling people they are deficient?

Yes, it is most definitely unreasonable, sometimes bordering on pathological even - but it's sadly also normal.

The "Reasonable Person" is the legal concept for the everyman; someone who obeys the law, tries to do the right thing. So for example the "Reasonable Person" is someone who doesn't text while driving, they aren't careless. Essentially, its the idea of how the law would like everyone to act.

What I was saying was in response to Traroth's comment that not everyone would act like Marigold, but the point is that Marigold isn't everyone.

[Case]

So this started with someone suggesting Emily needs help.

She apparently didn't have friends before "We've adopted another one". Major impairment compared to baseline, and social isolation causes organic problems in the long run. That points one way.

Her employer, her friends, and everyone we've seen her dating do not seem concerned. That points the other way.

Personally, I think of her as "the smart, weird one". Then again, I'm an academic with two entries in the DSM-V about the way my headmeat works. My baseline is ... well. 

The way I think of Emily is largely the way she seems to think of herself: She is the way she is, and that's (mostly) a good thing. She could learn to pay a little more attention to paradigm-changing consequences of her research before the MiB turn up and impound it.

Case, would it help if I rephrased it as "not all weird people need help"? 'Cause that is what I'm trying to say. Emily is certainly weird. That's not by itself enough data to show mental illness.

Sure ... or stick with "we should avoid pathologizing weirdness", I like that one. Note that I wasn't objecting to anything you said - actually, I rather liked the post of yours I quoted above, and so did seven others. I was just using it as a starting point - you and Paul are pretty good at concise summarizing, so I borrowed. I'm generally not a friend of 'armchair diagnostics' and every once in a while, I 'harumph' a bit about it.

Was talking with you, not against you.

[OldGoat]

Pathological jealousy, also known as Morbid jealousy, Othello syndrome or delusional jealousy, is a psychological disorder in which a person is preoccupied with the thought that their spouse or sexual partner is being unfaithful without having any real proof, along with socially unacceptable or abnormal behaviour related to these thoughts. The most common cited forms of psychopathology in morbid jealousy are delusions and obsessions. It is considered a subtype of delusional disorder.

Some symptoms of pathological jealousy include:[citation needed]
   

(click to show/hide)

Accusing partner of looking or giving attention to other people.
    Questioning of the partner's behavior.
    Interrogation of phone calls, including wrong numbers or accidental phone calls, and all other forms of communication.
    Not allowing any social media accounts, Facebook, Twitter etc.
    Going through the partner’s belongings.
    Always asking where the partner is and who they are with.
    Isolating partner from their family and friends.
    Not letting the partner have personal interests or hobbies outside the house.
    Controlling the partner's social circle.
    Claiming the partner is having an affair when they withdraw or tries to escape abuse.
    Accusing the partner of holding affairs when the marriage's sexual activity stops because of the abuse.
    Verbal and/or physical violence towards the partner, the individual who is considered to be the rival, or both.
    Blaming the partner and establishing an excuse for jealous behavior.
    Denying the jealous behavior unless cornered.
    Threatening to harm others or themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_jealousy

These are also ever so typical of perpetrators of domestic violence.

(click to show/hide)

Is Jeph setting up for an arc about DV?  Don't be surprised if Marigold become physically abusive to Dale.

[hedgie]

I’m hoping there’s a “Momo to the rescue” component to this story, because Momo is the one person who can tell Marigold what an idiot she’s being. (Well, May could and would do that too, but Momo is the one she would listen to.)

Momo is also quite capable of zapping some sense into Marigold if need be.

[TheEvilDog]

I’m hoping there’s a “Momo to the rescue” component to this story, because Momo is the one person who can tell Marigold what an idiot she’s being. (Well, May could and would do that too, but Momo is the one she would listen to.)

Momo is also quite capable of zapping some sense into Marigold if need be.

Not to mention, if May shouted loudly enough, she might fall apart at the joints.

[SpanielBear]

These are also ever so typical of perpetrators of domestic violence.

(click to show/hide)

Is Jeph setting up for an arc about DV?  Don't be surprised if Marigold become physically abusive to Dale.

I would be *gobsmacked* if that is the direction the comic is going. I know I was calling for the Drama Chameleon earlier, but I'm pretty sure that meant wacky relationship highjinks, not lifetime tv!

Seriously, I understand that people don't like certain characters, but can we perhaps draw a bloody breath between "dislike" and "I'm pretty sure she's gonna kill that puppy!"??

[Is it cold in here?]

I took it as a public service announcement rather than a forecast.

Not that it's going to happen in the strip but it does happen in real life and it's useful to know the warning signs.

[SpanielBear]

Agreed, it was the bit in spoilers I was responding to.

[Tova]

What I'm trying to figure out is whether this is pathological jealousy in Marigold or something really going on with Dale and Emily. Pathological jealousy can be a nasty pervasive condition that's hard to treat or control, and isn't fixed by 'going away and growing up' if it's real and chronic.
...

Pathological jealousy, also known as Morbid jealousy, Othello syndrome or delusional jealousy, is a psychological disorder in which a person is preoccupied with the thought that their spouse or sexual partner is being unfaithful without having any real proof, along with socially unacceptable or abnormal behaviour related to these thoughts. The most common cited forms of psychopathology in morbid jealousy are delusions and obsessions. It is considered a subtype of delusional disorder.

Some symptoms of pathological jealousy include:[citation needed]
   

(click to show/hide)

Accusing partner of looking or giving attention to other people.
    Questioning of the partner's behavior.
    Interrogation of phone calls, including wrong numbers or accidental phone calls, and all other forms of communication.
    Not allowing any social media accounts, Facebook, Twitter etc.
    Going through the partner’s belongings.
    Always asking where the partner is and who they are with.
    Isolating partner from their family and friends.
    Not letting the partner have personal interests or hobbies outside the house.
    Controlling the partner's social circle.
    Claiming the partner is having an affair when they withdraw or tries to escape abuse.
    Accusing the partner of holding affairs when the marriage's sexual activity stops because of the abuse.
    Verbal and/or physical violence towards the partner, the individual who is considered to be the rival, or both.
    Blaming the partner and establishing an excuse for jealous behavior.
    Denying the jealous behavior unless cornered.
    Threatening to harm others or themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_jealousy

Hmmmmmh ... IDK, 'delusional' is not the first word I'd associate with Marbear.

We're also in no position to characterise her jealousy as a preoccupation or as obsessive, which seems to me to be a key characteristic.

[Smallest]

I can only hope Dale will pick up on the boldface type of Marigold's "no reason" in that last panel so her jealousy can at least be addressed before it evolves into something dangerous, as jealousy does.

I also don't really understand the distaste for Marigold here. Maybe it's because I struggle with low self esteem in very similar ways to her, but I find her endearing.

As one of the people who aren't as endeared by Marigold: her low self-esteem is a very relatable character trait, but the way she chooses to make other people suffer for it is annoying. Dale has no idea what's going on, and he's at the same level of social awkwardness as Marigold so she knows he needs things clearly spelled out just as she does.
So, armed with that knowledge,what does she do? She runs him through an interrogation about Emily while giving him no clue about the context. Charming.

Thank you for wording this. Now on to read a page and a half of comments between your post and where this posts.

[Is it cold in here?]

I too hope Momo hears about this and intervenes.

[OldGoat]

Seriously, I understand that people don't like certain characters, but can we perhaps draw a bloody breath between "dislike" and "I'm pretty sure she's gonna kill that puppy!"??

Are you saying I'm accusing Marigold of being a potential puppy squisher or that I dislike her?  Uh, no.  I'm saying that if Jeph is going to tackle domestic violence in this arc (which he may or may not do), don't be surprised if he has Marigold acting out.

She's a figment of Jeph's imagination.  They're ALL figments of Jeph's imagination, figments that he shares with us.  They must be pretty entertaining figments since so many of us follow their lives, but they're all figments, none the less.

[Tova]

I'm with SpanielBear. I'd be more than surprised. I'd be dumbfounded. You're drawing a verrry long bow from one instance of jealousy all the way to domestic violence.

[SpanielBear]

Fair enough. I was reacting in part to what others were saying, and I thought you were casting blame before the crime. I get... irritated by that. Yeah I get they're all fictional, but I still empathise. Seriously, if you think I'm bad anthropomorphising webcomic characters, you should see me around dogs! I take your point though. I apologise for leaping down your throat. I think it was your use of the phrase "don't be surprised" in your original post. To me that sounded like it was behaviour you were expecting from Marigold. Clearly I took that the wrong way, though. I don't like characters being blamed for stuff they haven't done, but if that wasn't what you were implying it's my bad for not reading more carefully.

Edit: Warning: While you were typing, someone else has posted to agree with the point you are now apologising for.

Well.

This is awkward.

[anahata]

We're also in no position to characterise her jealousy as a preoccupation or as obsessive, which seems to me to be a key characteristic.

True, and my introduction of the topic was based only on her jealousy possibly having no real external cause (i.e. Dale might not actually be having/planning an affair with Emily). And it was only a speculation about whether it was that or not. We certainly can't tell yet.

[Tova]

We're also in no position to characterise her jealousy as a preoccupation or as obsessive, which seems to me to be a key characteristic.

True, and my introduction of the topic was based only on her jealousy possibly having no real external cause (i.e. Dale might not actually be having/planning an affair with Emily).

Jealousy doesn't require a real external cause. Jealousy in a relationship fundamentally is a fear of loss, and jealousy with real or imagined cause is just jealousy.

[Is it cold in here?]

A domestic violence story would be uncharacteristically dark.

[TheEvilDog]

And it would be an incredibly divisive one at that, more so than any previous storyline or character.

[Case]

A domestic violence story would be uncharacteristically dark.

In my my post above, I quoted that Wiki-article about 'pathological jealousy', along with the respective symptom-list, in order to point out: "Look at what 'pathological jealousy' means! Does this sound like Marigold? Not to me, it doesn't"

Apparently, that rebuttal to the theory that Marigold might be suffering a heavy-duty psychiatric disorder was taken as evidence for speculation whether Marigold might start abusing Dale ... ?

(click to show/hide)

No, Marigold is not the Messiah ...

(click to show/hide)

Countdown to start of furious debate about Marigold's Godhead ...

[TheEvilDog]

(click to show/hide)

No, Marigold is not the Messiah ...

(click to show/hide)

Countdown to start of furious debate about Marigold's Godhead ...

(click to show/hide)

She's a very naughty girl!

[Nepiophage]

So, to summarise the last few weeks’ forums:

Tilly is evil
Evie is evil
Marigold is evil

Next week’s poll should be — who is going to be evil this week?

[TheEvilDog]

So, to summarise the last few weeks’ forums:

Tilly is evil
Evie is evil
Marigold is evil

Next week’s poll should be — who is going to be evil this week?

I think that's a gross simplification and a somewhat insulting attitude towards members of the forum.

Tilly was a over-enthusiastic assistant who had been put into a rather difficult position by their employer. Granted, they were a little grating but they were still needed for the next stage in Hanners' story.

Evie was someone who had the knowledge of her chosen field but not the wisdom to use it properly and inadvertently hurt Bubbles' with her attitude. But they do say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Marigold is a confused young woman who has been victimised repeatedly from what we've been able to gleam from her past. As such, she's going to be suspicious about the better things in her life. Its not a healthy attitude to have, but its an understandable one for someone who has had her experiences to have.

Its one thing to take part in the discussions but its another thing to come in weeks after the fact and summarise several weeks into nine words that gloss over what was said by people. In fact, like I said, its a little insulting.

[Is it cold in here?]

It's a long-standing pattern that people react intensely to the characters and sometimes the reactions are negative. There were more of those than usual the last few weeks. (mod)Hoping we can get back to normal ...(/)

[jwhouk]

Sorry, wasn't gonna go there for the poll for the new week. Sorry.