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Poll

What do you want to see wrapped up first?

Just what are Faye and Bubbles to each other?
- 31 (42.5%)
Will Roko ever find that intimate companion she wants?
- 9 (12.3%)
Will Melon be drawn into the core cast?
- 3 (4.1%)
When will Hannelore and Winslow return home?
- 5 (6.8%)
Will Dora need a new employee, if so, who?
- 0 (0%)
Is there anything left to develop with Marten and Claire?
- 3 (4.1%)
Just how will the Brun-Clinton-Elliott triangle resolve itself?
- 22 (30.1%)
Other (please specify in comment)
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 73


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Author Topic: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)  (Read 21064 times)

awgiedawgie

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #50 on: 01 May 2018, 11:14 »

Very well spoken.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #51 on: 01 May 2018, 11:28 »

I disagree with the idea of censoring discussions about the romantic plots of a romance-focused slice-of-life comic, particularly in the weekly threads discussing that comic. This is the place I'd like to read those conversations.

I think you're going to see an overrepresentation of people speaking out against it not because it's much harder for someone to speak up for their right to discuss the topic when others are talking about it making them uncomfortable, even though it's also uncomfortable being told it's wrong to talk about the thing you want to talk about. Policing those topics results in these threads turning away a lot of people who aren't creepy, but are being told discussing what the comic is actually about makes them creepy. That's unpleasant.

Policing on behalf of inclusivity is still exclusionary. That's not inherently bad; There are people who, for the good of the community, you wish to exclude. But I wish to say that the pressure against discussing the comic in 'the right' way has personally resulted in me participating far less than I'd otherwise like to.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2018, 17:58 by MrNumbers »
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awgiedawgie

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #52 on: 01 May 2018, 11:45 »

I think the point trying to be made — at least in this particular case, for my part — is that people are discussing what they want the comic to be about, even when there is still some ambiguity that that is what the comic is actually about. And they are discussing that one small part of the greater picture to the exclusion of everything else. The future is inherently mutable, but they are discussing one possible eventuality as if it were the only possible outcome. As has been mentioned by others, it gets old fast.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #53 on: 01 May 2018, 11:56 »

Right, but the characters themselves, in comic, obviously desire that outcome for themselves. It's not just people projecting what they want, they're discussing what is in media res.

Or, because a picture is worth a thousand words;

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #54 on: 01 May 2018, 12:14 »

Quote from: Morituri
So why doesn't anybody seem to appreciate the current situation as a thing in itself, instead of just as a transitory state toward what they imagine some future situation might be?

I have. Early in the speculation about Bubbles and Faye becoming lovers I said they were something rarer and more valuable, namely close friends.

The current situation strikes me as unsustainable though.
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traroth

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #55 on: 01 May 2018, 12:41 »

Right, but the characters themselves, in comic, obviously desire that outcome for themselves. It's not just people projecting what they want, they're discussing what is in media res.

Or, because a picture is worth a thousand words;



Or even better:

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Morituri

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #56 on: 01 May 2018, 13:58 »

About it being what the characters want for themselves....  if it were, it would just be what they have.  They'd treat each other that way because it would be what they want for themselves.

And jumping there, over all the reasons why it *isn't* what they are doing right now, is skipping over things that are important to both.  Like, say, Bubbles' defensive reserve and self-esteem problems and Faye's heterosexuality. 

I think a discussion of Bubbles' self-esteem and feeling like she's *worthy* of having a romantic relationship would be on point here.  As might her fear of loss of control.  And whether Faye has ever shown the least inclination toward romance or sexual feelings toward anyone at all except human males, whether heterosexuality is an important part of her identity, what her lesbian sister's meddling meant or accomplished, how she's bound to have considered that aspect of herself when her sister came out, etc...  But discussion is blind to them, or else treating all those things merely as "ship tease" that they're impatiently waiting for the author to sweep out of the way. 

As far as I'm concerned, Jeph can spend months on any of those issues or all of them, or decide that their relationship develops as a business relationship and friendship but not a romance, because of them.  They aren't "ship tease" any more than the reasons Faye didn't eventually get together with Marten.  They're the story.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #57 on: 01 May 2018, 14:05 »

The odd thing is that I honestly can't see any of the problems about which Morituri is complaining. Instead, I'm seeing thoughtful discussion of the issues that they says that  they want discussed. Maybe I'm just better at parsing out posts that I don't want to see or something.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #58 on: 01 May 2018, 14:35 »

I voted for Marten/Claire, mostly because I still regard Marten as part of the "main cast" (I even used to think of him as the main character, but that belief is long gone), and he hasn't got much spotlight for quite some time now. I realize that his and Claire's story might not be very high on everyone's priority list right now, but still…

There's only two things Jeph can really do with the couple: split them up or marry them off. They are already sexual and live together, the next step forward is marriage. Conversely, the next step back is breaking up over something one of them may do but given the personalities, neither will break it off.

So they are stagnant, especially Marten. At least Claire has a chance to develop in other ways but Jeph isn't going down that road yet....perhaps a backstory arc?

Uh. No. Incredibly no.

There are plenty of things Jeph can do with "the couple" that involve them as a couple. They could just go do something together! They could have a disagreement over something that gives us more development/insight into who they are as individuals. One could have a personal issue come up that the other supports/helps them through. Etc.

Being a couple does not limit the involved characters to a binary state of will they/won't they stay together as their only potential future development. You are not "stagnant" once you've become part of a stable relationship; those bonds grow and change over time. And that's even without considering the possibility of other complex relationship shifts (for instance, becoming a more open/poly thing rather than a monogamous pairing - I don't find it likely, but it's an example).
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #59 on: 01 May 2018, 16:36 »

That was cute. :D

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #60 on: 01 May 2018, 17:57 »

It's actually pretty rare for me to get invested in a work that has no romantic tension. I need a story that has more than that but I also need the romantic elements. I've always found unresolved people pining for each other to be much more enjoyable to read/watch then established couples progress so as much as others are getting bored with skirting around and teasing the tension, I really like it. And it also puts me almost always in a shipping camp rather than discussing established cannon even if the ship will soon be cannon. I enjoy reading THIS phase of a relationship and I enjoy it even if it turns out that the two don't get together, even if it was one sided, even if in the end they turn out to have a particular kind of friendship - not quite platonic but not quite more than platonic. It's the mystery and not knowing and often tragic unrequited or star-crossed elements that make it great. Basically the opposite of real life where you want happy companionship and clear communication.

And at first the Faye/Bubbles dynamic really did nothing for me so good writing from Jeph because he got me invested in something I originally had little interest in.

I liked the Marten/Claire tension but beyond the wedding and one drunken head scratching, it was resolved with little excitement. Their relationship can have more dynamics to it that I'll enjoy but it'll never be the fresh new-love that is so fun to read which sucks because I liked them A LOT.

So think less of me if you want but that's just silly and judgmental. I'm still going to talk about the parts of the strip I love and most of them involve does person x feel all tingly inside about person y? DID YOU SEE THAT BLUSH?! OMG OMG OMG  :claireface: :claireface:
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #61 on: 01 May 2018, 19:14 »

Quote from: Morituri
I think a discussion of Bubbles' self-esteem and feeling like she's *worthy* of having a romantic relationship would be on point here.  As might her fear of loss of control.  And whether Faye has ever shown the least inclination toward romance or sexual feelings toward anyone at all except human males, whether heterosexuality is an important part of her identity, what her lesbian sister's meddling meant or accomplished, how she's bound to have considered that aspect of herself when her sister came out, etc...

(regular user)I would love to participate in a discussion of any or all of those, plus one about Faye's mother's reaction.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #62 on: 01 May 2018, 19:16 »

Faye finally realizes what she knew all along.

EDIT TO ADD:
Speculation is over and done with.

Faye has never reacted _quite_ like that to any of her previous relationship startups. It's consistent with the idea that she's not consciously open to romance with a female synthetic, which is why she buried the idea as it tried to form.

It won't happen because it's not a spectacular story, but for their sake I would prefer they hold a "So what are we?" talk.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2018, 19:23 by Is it cold in here? »
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #63 on: 01 May 2018, 19:41 »

So, if Faye is beginning to realize she has feelings for Bubbles, where does she go now? Given Faye’s character and the way this comic usually works, I think she’s likely gonna go and talk to Marten or Dora. Dora seems more likely to me, since she has experience being bisexual (that’s a weird phrase), but I can also see Faye wanting to talk to Marten since he’s probably going to be calmer about it and get less invested in a potential relationship.
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awgiedawgie

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #64 on: 01 May 2018, 20:11 »

It would be interesting to see Dora’s opinion, but I have no doubt she will go to Marten. She has repeatedly said that he’s her best friend, and she has asked his advice on other things before.


I still see one of two possible questions running through her mind. She has now realized either “Bubbles likes me and I don’t know what to do” or “I like Bubbles and I don’t know what to do”. Either way, she clearly doesn’t know what she should do next, or she wouldn’t have run away. She knows Marten will be up front with her, whereas any of her other friends have more potential for smart-assery, and she really doesn’t need that right now.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #65 on: 01 May 2018, 20:23 »

This kills the ambiguity.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #66 on: 01 May 2018, 20:40 »

its_happening.gif

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #67 on: 01 May 2018, 20:53 »

Times like this, I remember the years Jeph... well, 'avoided' isn't really the right word I think..... let's say, Jeph did not commit to queer relationships.  I personally added 'bury your gays' or 'hide your lesbians' or somesuch to the TVTropes page. Which, there are valid reasons not to, but I certainly was getting very tired with stories not specifically dedicated to queerness dancing around it for so many years. It was nice to see him finally go from several straight couples to some straight couples with some queer couples thrown in. To take a Goddamned stand.

Anyway, I've been looking forward to him finally ripping the bandage off on human-AI romance. He's been getting a long run-up on it, starting to feel like he was just gonna spend years dancing around it again. But looks like he might be grabbing for that bandage, finally.

As someone who, it seems, will always be sorted into society's 'Them', it is nice to see the gap bridged.

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #68 on: 01 May 2018, 20:54 »

all that said I probably don't have much to say that I haven't said in past Happenings.

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #69 on: 01 May 2018, 21:02 »

My first instinct is to be like "I can't believe it's taken Faye this long to put the pieces together!" but I'm pretty sure I've missed more obvious love-related things because love is confusing.

Also, I hope "Leg Cramp" becomes slang for "Perspective-Altering Realization."
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #70 on: 01 May 2018, 21:12 »

So, if Faye is beginning to realize she has feelings for Bubbles, where does she go now? Given Faye’s character and the way this comic usually works, I think she’s likely gonna go and talk to Marten or Dora. Dora seems more likely to me, since she has experience being bisexual (that’s a weird phrase), but I can also see Faye wanting to talk to Marten since he’s probably going to be calmer about it and get less invested in a potential relationship.
It is indeed something of a weird phrase. But, deferring to someone with experience could help.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #71 on: 01 May 2018, 21:15 »

This kills the ambiguity.

This ambiguity is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-AMBIGUITY!!

Faye has a good heart. Along with her shock at herself she should soon realize that she's been inadvertently hurting Bubbles. The awkwardness will be intense.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #72 on: 01 May 2018, 21:20 »

Times like this, I remember the years Jeph... well, 'avoided' isn't really the right word I think..... let's say, Jeph did not commit to queer relationships.  I personally added 'bury your gays' or 'hide your lesbians' or somesuch to the TVTropes page. Which, there are valid reasons not to, but I certainly was getting very tired with stories not specifically dedicated to queerness dancing around it for so many years. It was nice to see him finally go from several straight couples to some straight couples with some queer couples thrown in. To take a Goddamned stand.

Anyway, I've been looking forward to him finally ripping the bandage off on human-AI romance. He's been getting a long run-up on it, starting to feel like he was just gonna spend years dancing around it again. But looks like he might be grabbing for that bandage, finally.

As someone who, it seems, will always be sorted into society's 'Them', it is nice to see the gap bridged.

It was my understanding that trans folks still counted as queer. Has that changed?
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #73 on: 01 May 2018, 21:22 »

Oh no… See that concerned look on Bubbles face in the last panel?
'Did I do something inappropriate?' ...  'Did I spook Faye?' ... 'Did I just turn her away from me?'

And Faye's somewhat weird reaction will only add to the paranoia… poor Bubbles.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #74 on: 01 May 2018, 21:26 »

I suppose,  beyond a general distaste for shipping, it seems to me if our author is going to turn his AIs into sexual beings then it loses the whole thing of exploring "There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently." (Niven)  and they become exactly like all the other characters who copulate but don't reproduce, so what's the point in having them?
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #75 on: 01 May 2018, 21:30 »

I suspect most of the work on today's strip went into the Tetris animation, but panel 2 is really a beautiful pose and very well drawn.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #76 on: 01 May 2018, 21:34 »

I'd argue there are more differences between the AI and the humans than just the fuckin'. The nuances in the AI and human experiences have been discussed in-comic. If anything, the interaction of the human and AI minds in a relationship might be an interesting contrast of their individual needs.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #77 on: 01 May 2018, 21:43 »

It won't happen because it's not a spectacular story, but for their sake I would prefer they hold a "So what are we?" talk.

It wouldn't be the first time, I wouldn't be surprised if we got one. Potentially even right away if Bubbles doesn't take "leg cramp" as a valid response, but probably not until later.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #78 on: 01 May 2018, 21:47 »

So now Faye has figured out what's going on and what the issues are.

Still open to question is how she feels about it and what she wants to do.  If anything.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #79 on: 01 May 2018, 22:00 »

If Hannelore wasn't too hoarse from screaming over latrine duty she'd be squeeing something fierce right now. 
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #80 on: 01 May 2018, 22:12 »




It was my understanding that trans folks still counted as queer. Has that changed?

Generally they do. I don't think I understand the context of the question, though?

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #81 on: 01 May 2018, 22:16 »

I suppose,  beyond a general distaste for shipping, it seems to me if our author is going to turn his AIs into sexual beings then it loses the whole thing of exploring "There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently." (Niven)  and they become exactly like all the other characters who copulate but don't reproduce, so what's the point in having them?


...you what, mate?

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #82 on: 01 May 2018, 22:16 »

If Hannelore wasn't too hoarse from screaming over latrine duty she'd be squeeing something fierce right now.

Just wait until Claire finds out.

Even a mad scientist's daughter might be hard pressed to say "Your babies would be so cute!" to a human/synthetic partnership.

Poor Bubbles, indeed. She's afraid now that she's hurt Faye, a person she would lay down her life to protect.

EDIT TO ADD:
It goes back before Niven. Astounding editor John Campbell demanded that authors write about beings who think as well as a man, but not like a man.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #83 on: 01 May 2018, 22:28 »

Okay so I've got a lot of *thoughts* in response to what you wrote, Jim, but how about I just keep them short for the moment and say that the AI are raman, possibly even främling given the nature of their birth, existence, and society. They're not varelse. I find where you seem to be drawing the lines, uh, confusing is the simplest word.

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #84 on: 01 May 2018, 23:05 »

I confess I had to look up the context for that list, and all the top search results for "raman" were about infrared spectroscopy.

http://enderverse.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness

Some of the trillion-input AIs managing global infrastructure may be too foreign for mutual understanding.

So is Faye going to see this as interracial or as interspecies?
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #85 on: 01 May 2018, 23:13 »

Just want to quickly say the animation in todays comic got a big laugh out of me!

More please.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #86 on: 01 May 2018, 23:20 »

After todays comic, try stopping the shippers now. Muahahah.

Jeph is really teasing us
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Gyrre

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #87 on: 01 May 2018, 23:22 »

After todays comic, try stopping the shippers now. Muahahah.

Jeph is really teasing us
Faye dies of a sudden heartattack from her sister and Claire squeeing too loud behind her.

EDIT: forgot to include Claire.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2018, 23:30 by Gyrre »
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #88 on: 01 May 2018, 23:24 »

I do love the sequence of panels 3 and 4 in today's strip because it puts thousands of words into two pictures (including a very simple animated GIF). Basically, Faye starts to subconsciously reciprocate to Bubbles' massage and does so on what, for a human woman, would be a highly intimate area. At that moment, all the pieces slot into place and, yes, she suddenly realises that, as well as viewing Bubbles as one of her closest friends, she also is sexually attracted to her.

Her response in panel 5 is entirely understandable and I wouldn't be surprised if, looking back, Bubbles realises that there was a little fear in Faye's body language. I doubt Bubbles will realise this and I don't know if anyone will ever tell her but that's understandable. When you think how Faye was hurt by Sven and how tripping over one of the last hurdles with Angus nearly literally killed her, you can't blame her from being afraid of the intensity of what is happening between her and Bubbles.

So, I'm expecting that Faye is going to run through town to the library to talk to Marten. Because, whilst Dora is one of her best female friends, she's a bit too glib and relaxed about these things. Faye needs to talk to someone about what she should do next, not be advised to close the shop for the day and spend the time exploring things with Bubbles.

FWIW, coming up is a bit of self-conscious talk, first with Marten, then an equally self-conscious talk with Bubbles.
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Gyrre

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #89 on: 01 May 2018, 23:29 »




It was my understanding that trans folks still counted as queer. Has that changed?

Generally they do. I don't think I understand the context of the question, though?

You had said that Jeph was actively trying to hide the queer relationships.  Marten and Claire often appear together in the strips they're in.
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TheCollector

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #90 on: 01 May 2018, 23:41 »

Y'know, something those of you still wondering whether or not Faye actually realizes she feels something for Bubbles or just that Bubbles feels something for her seem to not be taking into account here. The pink background is for Faye, not Bubbles. Plus it's Faye's hand that's suddenly making it's way up Bubbles thigh. Me thinks that doesn't lead to, huh, they like me. lol
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« Last Edit: 16 May 2018, 22:38 by theMarc »
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #92 on: 02 May 2018, 00:11 »

Now Faye goes to confide her shocking revelation in one of the everyone who figured it out as soon as they met Bubbles.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #93 on: 02 May 2018, 00:17 »

You had said that Jeph was actively trying to hide the queer relationships.  Marten and Claire often appear together in the strips they're in.

I see. If you re-read what I wrote, my friend, you will see that I also said that was years ago. A decade-ish ago (though I wasn't that specific), when Dora was theoretically bisexual and that was just about it.

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #94 on: 02 May 2018, 00:19 »

I also, in the post, mention how he stopped doing that. Since we have Marten's father and his husband, Tai and Dora, Marten and Claire, with any luck Clinton and Elliot will smooch, probably some others I'm forgetting.

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #95 on: 02 May 2018, 00:22 »

and yes i know I'm triple-posting but also I didn't say Jeph was *actively* doing it, even back then. He might have been! But that's not in my post. Maybe I wasn't clear, I'm not always. So let me say at least that what I intended to say was that Jeph was doing it, whether he meant to or not.

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #96 on: 02 May 2018, 00:29 »

By "theoretically," do you mean this was before she'd explicitly said she liked girls (just perving on Faye and Amanda), or just before she'd actually been seen with another woman?
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #97 on: 02 May 2018, 00:30 »

Could go either way. It was so many years ago, I wasn't even out yet.

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #98 on: 02 May 2018, 00:50 »

Today's comic is pretty much exactly how my longest lasting relationship started off. Even if, ultimately, it was pretty disastrous.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #99 on: 02 May 2018, 00:52 »

I'm a bit perplexed by the gif...  Is that supposed to spell something?  If so, I can't make it out.
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