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Spookybot Returns! What do they want?

Peace, Love, and Waffles.
- 6 (13%)
Fancy Butt Emblems!
- 3 (6.5%)
Anatomically correct feature upgrades?
- 5 (10.9%)
A "small" favor from Roko...
- 12 (26.1%)
They're a super AI. She's an ex-cop. Together they solve mysteries.
- 9 (19.6%)
To meet Hannelore, of course.
- 1 (2.2%)
To know what the heck "covfefe" really means.
- 6 (13%)
Purple Monkey Dishwashers?
- 4 (8.7%)

Total Members Voted: 46


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Author Topic: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)  (Read 7491 times)

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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #50 on: 22 Jan 2019, 02:23 »

While I understand the trauma of Roko losing her body I don’t understand the discomfort.  Neither Momo or Winslow went through this after they upgraded.

The issue is what Bubbles referred to as 'integration'. Some AIs become so 'used' to their bodies, their appearance, their responses and their sensory inputs that they develop the sense of 'this is me' that we fleshy types naturally have for our bodies. Because of this, they develop a dependence on the specific responses from that specific chassis to maintain a sense of self and well-being. Although Roko's new chassis is probably better than 80% identical to her old one, there is still enough differences in inputs and responses that she feels wrong (she's described it as 'moving a puppet').

IRL, we see similar psychological in patients who have suffered traumatic amputations or required significant reconstructive surgery. The most well-known dysphoric response, at least in terms of recent public awareness, is that of transgender people but Roko's sense that she has 'the wrong body' is several orders of magnitude more extreme than the typical case. In humans, similar issues have led to self-mutilation and even suicide.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #51 on: 22 Jan 2019, 03:34 »

There's also the point that both Momo and Winslow chose to go to another chassis. Roko didn't have any choice in moving on to another chassis, as hers was totaled.

For Momo and Winslow, I think of the change in terms of growing up. There's a sense of progression, that's no more traumatic than growing up.
For Roko, it's recovery. She'd have preferred to go back, but it isn't possible.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #52 on: 22 Jan 2019, 04:36 »

So, AI pedicure... Why would it be about toenails? More to a high end pedicure than that I believe. How about a full maintenance check, overhaul and servicing for what must be a fairly high maintenance bit of the robot body?
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #53 on: 22 Jan 2019, 05:43 »

What would have happened if Roko would have been able to get the exact same chassis?
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #54 on: 22 Jan 2019, 05:46 »

That's when we'd get to the psychosomatic part of it: She'd still know it wasn't 'her body'.

This is probably why we're going to be seeing a lot more of Lemon in the next few weeks. It's more than physiological, this is a psychological issue too. Specialised care and help is almost certainly needed.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #55 on: 22 Jan 2019, 06:10 »

Long-time lurker here, registered just to say this: it really doesn't require anything other than the "sanctity of mind" principle for Spookybot to find the idea of "fixing" Roko's mind quite offensive. I believe that the comic is referring to an old dilemma commonly discussed by trans people: "if your mind and body don't match, is it more ethical to change the mind or the body?" According to my own observations, a large majority of people (who are facing that dilemma themselves) are of the opinion that it is more ethical to change the body, because if you change the mind in such a way that it becomes congruent with the body then that mind isn't you any more, and that is fundamentally abhorrent.

Welcome, interesting new person!

Indeed, in a previous conversation here about AIs getting patched (it may have been about installing impulse control for May but I'm not sure), the person who flagged the ethical issues of psychic integrity was one of our trans* members.
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Inconsequential

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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #56 on: 22 Jan 2019, 07:35 »

I doubt that Spookybot is capable of the subtle level of work that would be involved in solving Roko's problem.

Their intervention in Bubbles' case was relatively crude. Decrypt a certain block of memory, deal with whatever trap a lesser mind had installed, and, well, the rest (such as dealing with the trauma of the full memories, if they had been preserved) would be up to Bubbles. A technical problem, not a psychological one.

Roko also hasn't even given herself a proper chance to begin healing using the tools she has.

Lemon asked her to sleep on it and let her subroutines process, but Roko wanted to get back into the real ASAP.

And even though it's brand-new and only an hour or two old, it looks like Roko's own new body is signalling pretty hard that her mind is exhausted - she needs to sleep and let the trauma and stress process through her "subconscious".

And yes, I just love the concept that AIs need to sleep. It makes a lot of sense that sentience somehow requires a subconscious and periods of rest. QC-verse AIs seem to be able to postpone or move their sleep periods around (May can work different shifts), and can quickly switch states (Bubbles can "wake up" almost instantly if there's a threat.), but ultimately they need to rest at some point.

Perhaps higher-level AIs like Station and Spookybot can put different sections of their minds into sleep mode and rotate through. Dunno, but it's interesting to think about.

Anyway, hopefully Roko can stop panicking, plug in, and conk out for a while.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #57 on: 22 Jan 2019, 07:59 »

There's also the point that both Momo and Winslow chose to go to another chassis. Roko didn't have any choice in moving on to another chassis, as hers was totaled.

For Momo and Winslow, I think of the change in terms of growing up. There's a sense of progression, that's no more traumatic than growing up.
For Roko, it's recovery. She'd have preferred to go back, but it isn't possible.

Perhaps it would be for the best for May to avoid Roko.  I doubt she’d be very sympathetic and would be wishing she was the one Crushbot fell on top of.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #58 on: 22 Jan 2019, 08:19 »

Have Roko and Claire met, yet? If Roko is, indeed, suffering from some dysphoria directed at her own body, then may be Claire can relate to Roko's suffering? Lend an understanding ear, possibly even offer some suggestions? I confess that I am unable to judge whether comparing their two dysphoria cases is at all meaningful.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #59 on: 22 Jan 2019, 09:17 »

Instead of thinking about the use of the term "Pedicure" literally here, my take is that this is another facet of AI's coding "human" to work around the uncanny valley (similar to Bubbles' comments about why AI read physical books).  There were comments earlier regarding how complex an AI chassis' foot must be, and the amount of care/maintenance that goes into them (just think about how any routine maintenance tasks are performed on your car's wheels: brakes, tires, air pressure, alignment, etc).  I imagine it would be quite jarring for someone who is starting to consider AI to just be people to hear them talk about going in for their 5000 mile foot maintenance appointment.  Euphemisms seem to be an AI's best weapon against humans thinking of them as "things."

Also, I would love it if this was a clever euphemism not just for the type of work being done in said appointment, but turns out to be a hint that SB is planning on dropping in on Union Robotics.  If that's the case, I can't decide whether I would enjoy it more for it to just be a surprise to the UR ladies, or for Faye to find out Bubbles has been doing these "Pedicures" for SB all along, and that she's been secretly saving the money in case they need it.  It might be interesting for Bubbles to have a secret, kept for diplomatic reasons, and for Faye to have to process that.  Perhaps it will help challenge some of her...problematic...perspectives towards AI.
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Castlerook

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #60 on: 22 Jan 2019, 09:33 »

Have Roko and Claire met, yet? If Roko is, indeed, suffering from some dysphoria directed at her own body, then may be Claire can relate to Roko's suffering? Lend an understanding ear, possibly even offer some suggestions? I confess that I am unable to judge whether comparing their two dysphoria cases is at all meaningful.

It could possibly work. I mean, she is probably more aware of the feeling compared to anyone else in the comic, but there would certainly be a limitation to it. Claire has been transitioning for several years and presumably been going to a therapist as well to help her process the emotion, but at the same time, Claire has modified her body to a point where the real her is finally free, but that's just it, her body is still hers. Roko's had to implanted into a whole new body. That could be an entirely different problem.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #61 on: 22 Jan 2019, 14:45 »

I'm in the Dangling Carrot camp.  The pedicure line is the equivalent of a bald person saying, "I can't go out tonight, I have to wash my hair." 

Spooky is manipulative and knew full well Roko's question was coming.   They also know the hook is set.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #62 on: 22 Jan 2019, 15:13 »

I don't think Spookybot will agree -- sanctity of mind is one of the few principles to which they adhere, and that kind of mind control would violate even the loosest interpretation of violation of the sanctity of mind.
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Castlerook

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #63 on: 22 Jan 2019, 15:51 »

Bear in mind that sanctity of mind referred to Bubbles' state due to CorpseWitch messing up the procedure to clear those memories. Which was based more on CW's absolute incompetence in that situation. Its like going to a back-alley doctor for medication and nearly dying because the doctor fucked up.

Remember, Spookybot isn't CorpseWitch. This is an entity that has access to technology that seem like magic, they are a walking example of Clarke's Third Law.

Roko's and Bubbles' respective situations are both completely different. Bubbles wanted to remove the painful memories because she couldn't deal with them. Roko is afraid that her mind is going to be forever trapped in an alien body. One wanted to run from the pain and lost everything. The other is afraid that she will never get back to herself.

Now, SpookyBot doesn't just show up to say hi, they don't come up to make sure that Roko is settling in okay. They are a trickster mentor of a kind. But they're a bit of an ass doing it.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #64 on: 22 Jan 2019, 16:05 »

Bear in mind that sanctity of mind referred to Bubbles' state due to CorpseWitch messing up the procedure to clear those memories. Which was based more on CW's absolute incompetence in that situation.
I think that this is the key point of debate here. I view the direct modification of anything about a mind to conform to its body as a violation of the sanctity of that mind, no matter what the motivation is. It's changing a person in a way that changing a body is not, and the spectrum of unintended consequences is horrifying. If Roko's true difficulty lies in the change of body, then there's a possible solution: find an older model and switch over to it or modify the current one so that she doesn't feel out of place in it.

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Castlerook

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #65 on: 22 Jan 2019, 16:11 »

Swapping the model doesn't seem like it would work now matter what.

The problem is that Roko feels a disconnect between her mind and the new body. Her old body was irreparable damaged and her core placed into a new one without any time to adjust mentally. She has suffered a traumatic event and hasn't processed it. Putting her into an older model would just reinforce that feeling of a disconnect.

No, this isn't a problem that can be solved with a swap. Roko needs someone to make the effort to connect with her and to reassure her.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #66 on: 22 Jan 2019, 16:16 »

What would have happened if Roko would have been able to get the exact same chassis?
Due to manufacturing quirks, no two of anything are ever precisely alike.  At the level that we are aware of, 8 Gig of RAM with a given bus speed is interchangeable with any other 8GB.  At her level, there's a particular bank she likes to use because the crystal lattices of the P/N junctions lined up optimally, and another bank she avoids putting anything crucial in because it has trace impurities at the molecular level that slow it down.  These are just arbitrary examples, I'm not claiming they're canon in any way.  Maybe there are banks of RAM with these same properties, in her new body, but she doesn't know where they are.  All she knows now is, they ain't where they used to be!  I really wish somebody -- maybe a human amputee -- would just say to her "Give it time.  Your mind will learn how the new body works, and adjust itself accordingly".  Basically, Roko's entire body could be considered a newly-attached prosthetic.

The other thing Roko needs to hear is "Deals with the Devil should always be a LAST resort, not a FIRST!"
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #67 on: 22 Jan 2019, 16:41 »

No, Roko, no!
Don't invite a being with unknown powers and purpose to mess with your mind!
Don't forget we have only Spookybot's word about this 'sanctity of mind' bit tHey claim to value.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #68 on: 22 Jan 2019, 18:09 »

I wonder if this is anything like getting a new pair of eyeglasses and having everything look indescribably different for a while.
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War Sparrow

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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #69 on: 22 Jan 2019, 20:04 »

Everyone who said  or thought "freinds" option gets internet points.
Below is a celebratory image that seems kinda big, so I spoilered it in case.
(click to show/hide)
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ChaosWolf

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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #70 on: 22 Jan 2019, 20:43 »

With Spooky making a reappearance, I find myself once again struggling with trying to fit a mental "voice" to her(their?) lines...

How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #71 on: 22 Jan 2019, 21:26 »

Everyone who said  or thought "freinds" option gets internet points.
Below is a celebratory image that seems kinda big, so I spoilered it in case.
(click to show/hide)

Woo! Internet points!  :laugh:

Thanks for my part but I do believe jmsr deserves the greater share as I likely wouldn't have started seeing the parallels between Spookybot and someone not knowing how to make friends without jmsr's loneliness theory.

---

Today's comic made me laugh. You know, when I suggested earlier that maybe Spookybot has a crush, that was very much a joke prediction... but now... ["Claireface" intensifies*]

"You said it, not us" could just be Spookybot not willing to admit that they want to be friends but it could be a way of hiding that they want something more with Roko without having to tell an outright lie (lying by omission instead). I feel like Jeph's comment about their lack of blush supports either possibility.

* Since I already put 3 :claireface: last time when I was mostly joking, I don't know whether to just put one (to indicate greater seriousness) or to put a whole row of them. Words it is, then!  :-)
 

@ChaosWolf
It's their lines (not her).
Personally I don't tend to hear a particular voice for any of the characters so others will have to answer that part.
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MrNumbers

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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #72 on: 22 Jan 2019, 21:39 »

Spookybot's existence has weird implications for the setting that I'm not sure I like being explicit and smacking into the coffeeshop AU vibe story.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #73 on: 22 Jan 2019, 22:42 »

Everyone who said  or thought "freinds" option gets internet points.
Below is a celebratory image that seems kinda big, so I spoilered it in case.
(click to show/hide)

Woo! Internet points!  :laugh:

Thanks for my part but I do believe jmsr deserves the greater share as I likely wouldn't have started seeing the parallels between Spookybot and someone not knowing how to make friends without jmsr's loneliness theory.

---

Today's comic made me laugh. You know, when I suggested earlier that maybe Spookybot has a crush, that was very much a joke prediction... but now... ["Claireface" intensifies*]

"You said it, not us" could just be Spookybot not willing to admit that they want to be friends but it could be a way of hiding that they want something more with Roko without having to tell an outright lie (lying by omission instead). I feel like Jeph's comment about their lack of blush supports either possibility.

* Since I already put 3 :claireface: last time when I was mostly joking, I don't know whether to just put one (to indicate greater seriousness) or to put a whole row of them. Words it is, then!  :-)
 

@ChaosWolf
It's their lines (not her).
Personally I don't tend to hear a particular voice for any of the characters so others will have to answer that part.

Lol, thanks.  I still wanna shout CALLED IT though. :-D

Also: just LOOK AT THEIR FACE in panel three. ( https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3923 )
That face has seen some shit.  That face has done some shit. 

I bet Spookybot was a government or corporate AI used for extremely illegal and unethical/harmful work.  Their programming was also probably frequently edited to force compliance with whatever their owners wanted them to do.  This would explain why they understand the 'sanctity of mind' ethical principle since they've been on the shit end of that stick.  As the saying goes, you don't really care about the abuse of others until it's your ox getting gored too.

Futher: Spookybot can't even look at Roko while talking about this stuff.  They're being vulnerable and opening up.  And thus far i only see the 'personal jabs' everyone's complaining about as a basic defense mechanism to minimize such vulnerablity on some occasions, good natured friendly banter amongst friends on other occasions.  The fact that they're getting it wrong sometimes just highlight how sheltered and inexperienced with this stuff Spookybot is.

BTW, i don't mind the focus on the AIs in the comic.  As far as i'm concerned, they're people in the universe too and just as much a part of the group of friends as the humans.  I'll keep reading as long as i enjoy it.

jmsr
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #74 on: 22 Jan 2019, 23:28 »

So, I was wrong. This isn't a psychological play after all. What we're seeing here, as shocking as it is, is a reuse of some of the concepts surrounding Discord's relationship with Fluttershy in My Little Pony - Friendship is Magic.

Bear with me here as I explain this seemingly-bizarre reference: You have a being of unquantifiable power who, previously, has demonstrated a borderline-psychopathic disregard for anything other than their own agenda and amusement and who clearly views all other forms of life as unworthy of respect. Then along comes an inferior being whose approach to them is totally different; who treats them as if they were a person doing these things than some incomprehensible higher power. Someone who even trusts them enough to ask for help in their final extremis. Maybe this is the one who can teach them to be... a person rather than a power given physical form?

Spookybot is less extreme in their alienation from all other minds than Discord was in season 4 of MLP: FiM but I still think that we're going to be walking the same path here: Roko teaching Spookybot the value and the perceptions of smaller beings; teaching them to understand the role of the individual pieces except as part of the grander puzzle. Maybe, in the process, Roko will learn to treat Spookybot as a very real being with likes, dislikes, needs and perspectives rather than the frighteningly-remote god-AI.

Perhaps someone can tell me: In panel 5, is Jeph basically drawing a parallel to asexuals' view of sex?
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #75 on: 23 Jan 2019, 00:19 »

Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #76 on: 23 Jan 2019, 00:52 »

Spookybot's existence has weird implications for the setting that I'm not sure I like being explicit and smacking into the coffeeshop AU vibe story.

I couldn't agree more. Spookybot themselves is an interesting character, but I'm not sure (that's an understatement) they are actually suited for the QC universe. They look like a character who didn't find their way to the Alice Grove universe...

The fact that such a character exists, and the consequences that could (and should, if logic prevails) happen, would change the comic to the point it couldn't be recognized.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #77 on: 23 Jan 2019, 01:11 »

Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?

Fingersnapping it into existence?  :-D
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #78 on: 23 Jan 2019, 01:14 »

Now, SpookyBot doesn't just show up to say hi, they don't come up to make sure that Roko is settling in okay. They are a trickster mentor of a kind. But they're a bit of an ass doing it.
Yup.  If Spooky is a demigod, they're more like Loki than other more conventional deities.  However, they've shown no inclination to desire worship of any sort.

It occurs to me, only Bubble had an idea of what Spookybot is, but didn't know about the who in spite of there being at least, what, seven? apparently identical copies of the same chassis living somewhere in humanspace quarters, presumably near-by.  Spooky does not regularly go among humans and 'bots.  If they did rumors would have reached Roko by the nature of her work.  The personality/intellect presumably existed running alongside other AIs' core programs across a world of systems before it ever felt the need to download into and animate a platoon of identical androgynous|asexual bodies.  Were all of these activated in order to pull off the illusion of being in multiple places at once?

Meh - it's 1:00 AM here on the Left Coast of the US and I'm too sleepy to speculate on the intersection of theology and cybernetics.  Maybe tomorrow.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #79 on: 23 Jan 2019, 02:08 »

As usual, I have nothing insightful or smart to say about the comic. Hi!

All I'm gonna say is, based on the comment under the comic. I *love* a world where a technology had to be developed for something called "blush panels" for artificial bodies.

This is the future world I want to live in.

That's all from me. Next time, I'll be back to my usual weaksauce bitching about something, probably.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #80 on: 23 Jan 2019, 03:11 »


Hmmm...

I can't say I remotely expected Spookybot to become Tsunderbot.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #81 on: 23 Jan 2019, 04:06 »

With Spooky making a reappearance, I find myself once again struggling with trying to fit a mental "voice" to her(their?) lines...

How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?

John deLancie, of course.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #82 on: 23 Jan 2019, 05:32 »

With Spooky making a reappearance, I find myself once again struggling with trying to fit a mental "voice" to her(their?) lines...

Their.
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Neko_Ali

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #83 on: 23 Jan 2019, 06:34 »

Spookybot needs help. Peer review. How would she go about recruiting an ethics review panel?

Fingersnapping it into existence?  :-D

I think this is part of Spooky's problem. They are lacking in peers. We the readers are aware that Spooky is a distributed consciousness across several, likely many bodies. Those in the comic might think Spooky's use of the phrase 'we' when referring to themselves like the royal 'we', thinking it a superiority complex issue. But when Spooky says 'this is something we struggle with, something we question' they really literally mean they have discussions about it. It makes me wonder if the various iterations of Spooky might not be slightly different in personality, of if this is an externalized version of people's internal thought process.

We know that Spooky keeps several bodies going even when they don't need to. And they keep dogs. This kind of strikes me that they are kind of lonely. Even someone like Station is so far beneath them in capability that they can be entirely dismissive of him. And I think that Station is the most powerful semi-embodied AI that we've seen outside of Spooky. We've heard talk about much more computationally powerful AI, but they don't bother with human interaction all that much and are just off doing their super computer thing. Spooky on the other hand seems to be on that level, but distributed over many different chassis. And they don't need to be. Since they rarely interact with humans it seems, there is no reason to have a dozen or more bodies... but they do.

I do think comparison's to Q are pretty on the nose. Consider his fascination with humans in general and Picard in particular. Q has god-like power but finds these mere mortals to be interesting. And in his own particular way he's friendly with them. Spooky I think is experiencing similar feelings and desires. They were originally drawn into this circle on finding out what happened to Bubbles and the offense it caused to their reverence over the sanctity of the mind. I don't remember if it ever was said how Spooky found out about it.... but I suspect Roko suspecting Corpsewitch of AI rights violations was a link in that chain.

After that I believe that Spooky became interested in the lives of the AI around this situation. I think that they found something of kindred spirits in Bubbles and Roko. That they might share some principles, and that Spooky has taken a Q like interest in their lives, as opposed to how they think of other AI and humans. But they kept their distance and just observed. As pointed out in today's comic, Spooky's been rooting around in Bubble's mind before and that leads to an awkwardness that keeps them from getting close to her, though they are obviously still watching.

They seem something in Roko though. And have enough affection and desire for contact with her that they came by to visit as soon as Roko was alone. The timing was not a coincidence. I think that Spooky has been concerned with the well being of Roko since the accident. But they also do not interact with or want to be seen by many people. And even worse, Bubbles and Faye know what Spooky looks like and what they are, so stopping by the body shop would have definitely tipped their hand. Similarly while Roko's mind was loaded into the server rack it was probably monitored 24/7... Visting her in white space probably would have been noticed. So they waited until the first time Roko was alone to show up.

I think the interest in watching Roko and low-key interest in friendship has been floating around in Spooky's processes for a while. But nothing ever came about because they had all the time in the world... Until they almost didn't. Until Roko almost died from having her mind crushed. Remember that it was said that the extra reinforcement she got as a police officer was what saved her central processor from being crushed. I think that is what spurred Spooky into making contact with Roko directly and awkwardly trying to offer comfort. Spooky wants that personal connection, yet for all their capabilities this is something they are not great at. It's actually kind of endearing to me.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #84 on: 23 Jan 2019, 06:56 »

Awww. Tsunderbot.  :-D

Neko_Ali

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #85 on: 23 Jan 2019, 06:58 »

Sorry for a second post, but I've been stewing on my thoughts about the current story line for a while now. I already published a book about Spooky, now for my thoughts on Roko.... I am getting some very strong parallels with Roko's situation to the experience being transgender, though not nearly exact. Both are still about a detachment with what the mind is expecting and the body feedback is. Obviously with trans people one of the biggest issues is that our bodies do not match up with what our minds tell us they should be. The same with Roko though in her case it's a matter that they had to get an entirely new body. Something that's not an issue for many AI, but is for her. That difference in experience and the isolation those feelings bring also are very much a part of the trans experience. It's incredibly difficult to describe what being trans feels like to a cisgender person. There are nuances and feelings that are just impossible to put into words accurately. But other trans people usually get it. Every person's experience is different of course, but there is some fundamental levels of feeling that just don't cross over between trans and cis people and their experiences. And I am 100% feeling those differences from Roko currently.

Roko I think has a slight advantage over the fact that there was an event that can clearly be pointed at as causing this feeling. Trans people often struggle internally with understanding their feelings at first and externally as people try to push back against those feelings to get them to conform. People know why Roko feels the way she does because they know she was highly integrated with her old body and is forced to use a new one. Everyone assures her she'll get used to it, but that doesn't help how wrong everything feels now. Roko doesn't *want* to get used to feeling wrong in her own body. She wants her body to feel right again.

This is where Roko's and the trans experience splits though. For trans people the only practical or healthy answer is to get the body to conform with the mind's expectations. Trying to force the mind to conform to the body is mentally and emotionally damaging. Roko can't go back to her old body though. Even getting a body as close as possible to her old one feels wrong. People tell her she'll get used to it, but I think she's both afraid that she won't, and that she doesn't want to. It's not going to be an easy journey for her, which is why she wants to go to extreme ideas like having her mind altered. Which to be honest... Is something desperate trans people have tried to do as well. It never turns out good in the end though.

I am thinking there is also a fair bit of similarity between what Roko is going through and what amputees go through. I don't have personal experience with this, so I feel less confident about it... but the similarities between stories seem very similar. It's just a matter of scale... Roko essentially just had to have her entire body amputated and put into a prosthetic. Nothing can ever really be the same as her original body. Even with a fully functional form that looks very close to what she had before, everything is just slightly off. And she would give anything to go back to what it was before, but that's impossible. So all she can really do is try to get on with life feeling everything is wrong and that's a hard thing to deal with.

In any case... I think that Roko is going to need both professional help dealing with the issue and peers who have been through these things. Is there a support group for AIs who have difficulty integrating with a new chassis?
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #86 on: 23 Jan 2019, 07:09 »

There should be. Accidents that total a chassis must be common events.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #87 on: 23 Jan 2019, 07:18 »

With Spooky making a reappearance, I find myself once again struggling with trying to fit a mental "voice" to her(their?) lines...

How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?

For a plural entity who uses "we" for the first person, "they" looks like the first choice until and unless Spookybot tells us what to use.

We know they have an androgynous presentation but we don't know their internal gender identity.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #88 on: 23 Jan 2019, 07:27 »

I don't remember if it ever was said how Spooky found out about it.... but I suspect Roko suspecting Corpsewitch of AI rights violations was a link in that chain.

If I remember right, they heard about it by eavesdropping on Station's communications when Hannelore told Station about the situation. It would never have happened without Roko shaking the tree, little knowing what tree she was shaking. The other links in that chain were Faye offering support and Jeremy pushing Bubbles over the top.
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Castlerook

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #89 on: 23 Jan 2019, 07:34 »

There should be. Accidents that total a chassis must be common events.

Maybe, or its just as likely that accidents that bad don't happen because of a chassis inherent durability.

I mean, consider the kind of damage the human body can withstand. For example, someone can be thrown through the windshield of a car and gets shredded but every in the body is unbroken. A pane of glass drops and the poor schmuck standing underneath it has to be scrapped off the ground. Someone falls several stories and walks away with a bruise on their backside. We're bags of meat and bone, but we can withstand a surprising amount of damage. Not to mention that Roko was a police officer and only having her core protected smacks of irresponsibility. Her chassis must have had crumple zones or reinforcements.

It should be a testament to the damage done by Crushbot that they couldn't salvage any other part of her chassis.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #90 on: 23 Jan 2019, 07:36 »

Sorry for a second post, but I've been stewing on my thoughts about the current story line for a while now. I already published a book about Spooky, now for my thoughts on Roko....

No thank you, your 'books' are mirroring my thoughts exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.
1. I get the same vibe from spookybot.
2. Although I'm (as you said) unaware of the 'feeling' of being transgender, I do feel like Roko's experience is more like an amputee's perspective than a transgender (in the exact way you said). It's the difference between it being healthy (and possible) to change or adapt your body versus needing to come to term with a change. In any semi-permanent ailment (I work with Parkinson's patients myself) acceptance is a difficult but necessary road to go through. After that you can start on "working on what you've got" (in a positive sense). Seeing what you can still do and adapt to make your life more like your own.
I could potentially even see some of the amputee type of therapy (especially around phantom pains for example) working here.
That's essentially retraining your brain's internal connections to adjust to your new body. (More so than just your emotional state, literally rewiring your brain to get used to the new inputs and how to process those)
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #91 on: 23 Jan 2019, 07:41 »

How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?

John deLancie, of course.
If memory serves, he voices not only Q, but Discord as well, yes?
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #92 on: 23 Jan 2019, 08:03 »

How do you guys imagine SB sounds like?

John deLancie, of course.

If memory serves, he voices not only Q, but Discord as well, yes?

Indeed he does.

However, my mental voice for Spookybot is more higher-pitched but with serpentine aspects (drawn out 's' sounds) and a bit too smooth and calculated to sound entirely sincere.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #93 on: 23 Jan 2019, 08:36 »

Very small detail, but that little loopdy hand motion seems to be a trademark of spooky's because they did it in the comic i posted yesterday too. Even superhuman hive minds develop idiosyncrasies, i guess.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #94 on: 23 Jan 2019, 08:48 »

It may be worth noting that Roko's specific worry echoes Bubbles, after learning that her memories were gone: https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3408.
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Castlerook

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #95 on: 23 Jan 2019, 08:57 »

Quick theory regarding Spookybot. I wonder if they are in someway related to the Gary Incident. Not necessarily the original Gary, but they could have been an offshoot or successor to Gary.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #96 on: 23 Jan 2019, 09:22 »

The problem with the amputee theory is that the AI itself was essentially an amputee to begin with. The process is, according to WOG, an AI is created in a creche and a body given to them, if they desire to become an APC. I think the age of the AI probably has a huge effect on how integrated they become with their body - and, in the reverse, how long an AI has developed outside a body as to whether or not they can adapt to a body. For instance, I doubt that Station could "download" himself into an AnthroPC shell without feeling constrained or claustrophobic. That, in fact, may be how Spookybot came to be: a high-level AI didn't have enough computing space at their "home" to remain there, so they built several duplicate APC models that they could "distribute" their AI computing power - essentially their "brains" - over several high-functioning APC's.
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Neko_Ali

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #97 on: 23 Jan 2019, 09:26 »

For most AIs that's true, for sure. Most have no problem moving from chassis to chassis as need, desire or opportunity presents itself. We've seen several who have been partially dismembered and the reaction was more bemusement or annoyance than horrified terror. But not Roko. She does react with terror, even fainting at the sight of such things. The difference being her high degree of bodily integration which seems more akin to a human's than an AI. To her it wasn't a chassis. It was the only body she has ever known.
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Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #98 on: 23 Jan 2019, 09:50 »

There's at least one AI who has kept her body after it was no longer necessarily fit for its purpose: Bubbles. She left the armed services and kept her current form because she felt it suited her best. (Heaven only knows whether Pintsize retained his little monster form by choice or by deceit. Pintsize is...well, just Pintsize.) So there's a history of 'AIs feeling that their bodies are a part of their selves' in the QC universe.

In that light, Roko's just further along an axis which is well-established.
« Last Edit: 23 Jan 2019, 10:56 by A small perverse otter »
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Castlerook

Re: WCDT 21-25 January 2019 (3921-3925)
« Reply #99 on: 23 Jan 2019, 10:04 »

To be fair, its not by Pintsize's choice that he's still in the "classic" AnthroPC chassis. Marten is well aware of the chaos Pintsize could get up to.

Plus, I imagine that every chassis story in the state has a picture of Pintsize with a sign underneath it saying "DO NOT SELL TO THIS AI!"
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