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Jeph says he's drawing crowd scenes for a few weeks. Why do you think he has to?

Hannelore is on the space station for her dad's birthday party
- 5 (13.2%)
Another impromptu party in the centre of town (no beer sledding, alas)
- 1 (2.6%)
A busy day at Coffee of Doom
- 9 (23.7%)
Bubbles takes Faye to a robot night-club to show her how synthetics party
- 2 (5.3%)
Either Elliot or Clinton or both take Roko to a human night-club to show her how humans party
- 4 (10.5%)
There is a party at the apartment; lots of people show up
- 0 (0%)
The town fayre has come around and Faye wants Union Robotics to have a presence there
- 4 (10.5%)
Opening night at the LEGAL Ultimate Robot Fighting Championship
- 11 (28.9%)
Other (specify in comment)
- 2 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 38


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Author Topic: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)  (Read 4549 times)

Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #200 on: 09 Feb 2019, 21:30 »

Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #201 on: 10 Feb 2019, 02:03 »

I would say: don't be that guy, even if you are a woman.

Last time I checked, racist women was a thing that existed. In my country, a woman is even the leader of the main far-right racist party.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #202 on: 10 Feb 2019, 02:17 »

Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.

Let's put it this way (and it is a good summation of how I view the 'word of god' argument): As the writer, Jeph knows what the characters are meant to be. So, if he says a character is meant to be an asshole, then they are an asshole, even if he doesn't quite nail portraying them like that.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #203 on: 10 Feb 2019, 03:18 »

In this case I think he painted a clear picture of what Percival is.
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #204 on: 10 Feb 2019, 04:08 »

Let's put it this way (and it is a good summation of how I view the 'word of god' argument): As the writer, Jeph knows what the characters are meant to be. So, if he says a character is meant to be an asshole, then they are an asshole, even if he doesn't quite nail portraying them like that.

Sorry, but I don't care about how Jeph meant to portray the character. 'Arsehole' is a purely subjective viewpoint, and the way I personally feel about the character is the way I feel about them.

Shall we discuss Tilly? A character Jeph considered, in your own words, to be cute and funny? Shall we ask everyone whether Tilly is cute and funny? Is everyone obliged to feel that way about them?
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #205 on: 10 Feb 2019, 04:13 »

On a separate note, I find it interesting that the common thread between at least three characters disliked by forumites is that this dislike has been expressed, in each of these three cases, by deliberately mangling their name.

Given the importance normally placed on getting names right, it makes sense that this is an expression of resentment here.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #206 on: 10 Feb 2019, 05:11 »

Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.

I stand by what I wrote, but mostly wanted to be clever by fitting as many D words in my sentence as possible.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #207 on: 10 Feb 2019, 05:13 »

On a separate note, I find it interesting that the common thread between at least three characters disliked by forumites is that this dislike has been expressed, in each of these three cases, by deliberately mangling their name.

Given the importance normally placed on getting names right, it makes sense that this is an expression of resentment here.

Depends on how you look at it. In one instance, the misnaming of a character was only done until they actually said that they didn't like it and then immediately stopped.

But considering how odious Peter has turned out to be and how disgusting his interactions are, not to mention that he's meant to be a disposable lay, forgotten in the morning, his misnaming is more of a running gag. And of course, that takes power away from a guy like him. In essence, everyone is saying that he isn't worth a second thought, let alone remembering his name.

Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.

That's the thing, we can discuss anything in the comic until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, the comic is not an interactive medium. It is not a forum for discussion, but a podium where Jeph ultimately shares his opinions regarding different topics. He is by no means as opinionated or as preachy as some other comics that the least said, the better, but Jeph is the writer and the artist. He has the last say on a particular topic or character. All we can do is discuss it on the forum, after the fact.
« Last Edit: 10 Feb 2019, 05:18 by Castlerook »
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #208 on: 10 Feb 2019, 06:51 »

Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute...

Not that I wish to dispute Jeph's value judgement on this occasion - I happen to agree with it. But. In general, I disagree with the notion that any value judgement decreed by Jeph is beyond dispute.

That's the thing, we can discuss anything in the comic until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, the comic is not an interactive medium. It is not a forum for discussion, but a podium where Jeph ultimately shares his opinions regarding different topics. He is by no means as opinionated or as preachy as some other comics that the least said, the better, but Jeph is the writer and the artist. He has the last say on a particular topic or character. All we can do is discuss it on the forum, after the fact.

I see this reasoning as a bit backwards. Nobody's saying anything about changing the comic. But when Jeph conveys a particular opinion or viewpoint via the comic, the discussion in the forum doesn't automatically have to agree with that opinion/viewpoint. "Seeing as how Jeph deemed this dude a dick there’s nothing to dispute..." clearly indicates otherwise, unless I'm completely misunderstanding something. What would even be the point of discussion of the comic if every character was to be viewed by everyone exactly the way the author sees them.

I mean, this particular character, written in this particular way, is ABSOLUTELY a dick. But not because that's the opinion of the author (or because he "deemed this dude a dick"). There are characters that are presented by the comic, possibly consciously, a certain way, and on whom forumites have had different opinions than the comic's narrative seems to point to.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #209 on: 10 Feb 2019, 07:38 »

Jeph says he's drawing crowd scenes for a few weeks. Why do you think he has to?

Hannelore is on the space station for her dad's birthday party    5 (13.5%)
Another impromptu party in the centre of town (no beer sledding, alas)    1 (2.7%)
A busy day at Coffee of Doom    9 (24.3%)
Bubbles takes Faye to a robot night-club to show her how synthetics party    2 (5.4%)
Either Elliot or Clinton or both take Roko to a human night-club to show her how humans party    4 (10.8%)
There is a party at the apartment; lots of people show up    0 (0%)
The town fayre has come around and Faye wants Union Robotics to have a presence there    3 (8.1%)
Opening night at the LEGAL Ultimate Robot Fighting Championship    11 (29.7%)
Other (specify in comment)    2 (5.4%)

Total Members Voted: 37
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #210 on: 10 Feb 2019, 11:47 »

Depends on how you look at it. In one instance, the misnaming of a character was only done until they actually said that they didn't like it and then immediately stopped.

I recall it differently. It stopped when the mods ordered it to stop.

Quote
But considering how odious Peter has turned out to be and how disgusting his interactions are, not to mention that he's meant to be a disposable lay, forgotten in the morning, his misnaming is more of a running gag. And of course, that takes power away from a guy like him. In essence, everyone is saying that he isn't worth a second thought, let alone remembering his name.

Sure. That's all true. And this running gag absolutely would not be taking place with someone people liked. That's all I'm saying.

He has the last say on a particular topic or character. All we can do is discuss it on the forum, after the fact.

The only thing not up for dispute is what's on the page. And what's on the page is that Jeph thinks we shouldn't be that guy.

"Peter is a dick" is an interpretation of the text. It is not an objective fact regarding the character. Jeph wrote a sleazy objectifying womanizer. He just happens to think that such people are dicks. Our own opinions about such a character absolutely are up for debate.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #211 on: 10 Feb 2019, 12:12 »

Well put, and answers the question I was about to ask, which is what the scope for dispute about Pops is.

Priam is a sleazy objectifying womanizer "in reality" but there could be argument about what we should think about that.

Given the culture here it's logical to expect most people would agree on their opinion of a sleazy objectifying womanizer.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #212 on: 10 Feb 2019, 15:52 »

Worth noting that His P-ness's name is misremembered and mangled in the comic. I thought the 4-um was just running with the joke.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #213 on: 10 Feb 2019, 16:34 »

True.  As it was for Tilly/Taffy when they first arrived.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #214 on: 10 Feb 2019, 17:27 »

Unlike Phil-in-the-blank, though, in which the in-universe mangling seems to be for showing us what an interchangeable part he is, I never could figure out a narrative purpose for Hannelore mangling Tilly's name, unless it was to show us how much Hannelore resented her as a symbol of Beatrice's meddling in her life.
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #215 on: 10 Feb 2019, 18:22 »

I'd like to declare my own personal bias on this topic.

My own real-life name has an unusual spelling and is frequently misspelled.

I am pretty forgiving in general when people misspell my name because the spelling is so unusual, and I certainly appreciate that mistakes can and do happen. I can't deny, though, that I get a little warm and fuzzy feeling whenever someone takes the trouble to get it right from the very beginning. I do get disconcerted when people on Facebook misspell it even though the correct spelling is right there on the screen in front of them (true story), or when I fill out an application form and the company fails to transcribe my name correctly (also a true story).

Malicious misspelling upsets me. I find it to be childish at best. Even for Australian politicians such as Tony Abbott - as hilarious as Mister Rabbit is, constructive political dialogue suffers as a result of this schoolyard nonsense.

Long story short - I find deliberate mangling of someone's name to be hurtful and, as a running joke, unfunny.

If a character got, for example, Marten's or Hannelore's name wrong in a single comic, would this, too, turn into a running joke? I suspect not, because those characters are popular, and I think the mods would come down on it like a ton of bricks. The mere fact that one character got a name wrong does not, in my opinion, cut it as an excuse to make a running joke out of it when we know what the character's correct name is.

Maybe your argument is that Jeph was making that joke and so it's fine for us to continue with it. I would have to grudgingly concede that, but I have an issue with this kind of thing in general, particularly with regards to shipping, as a continuing instance of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do. But that's a topic for another day.

What rule are we operating under?

"... please try to spell people's (and characters') names right - it's only polite."
Or is it:
"... please try to spell characters' names right, unless a character gets an unpopular character's name wrong, in which case all bets are off."

Feel free to call Peter a dick, a philanderer, call him out for othering - whatever you like. But even though it's impossible to hurt a finctional character's feelings, the day will come when someone who identifies strongly with the character you are poking fun at will decide this is not the community for them (less likely for someone like Peter, more likely for someone like Tilly). They will turn away from this place because they will see us as the dicks.

And you know what? They will probably have a point.

My two cents. Carry on.
« Last Edit: 10 Feb 2019, 18:54 by Tova »
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #216 on: 10 Feb 2019, 22:03 »

When Delilah misremembered Marten's name as Mark, some people in the forums ran with that for a bit.  Sometimes, there have been jokes about "I wonder what Faye's roommate is up to... what was his name?  <insert list of names beginning with M here>."
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #217 on: 10 Feb 2019, 22:26 »

When Delilah misremembered Marten's name as Mark, some people in the forums ran with that for a bit.

I'll have to take your word for that because I don't really recall. Funny you should bring that example up though, because that was a random hookup as well, right? Essentially Jeph making the same joke. Interesting, no?

The whole thing with people joking that they've forgotten Marten's name because he hasn't appeared in ages doesn't bother me quite as much, for reasons I can't really justify (although it has gotten a bit old).
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #218 on: 10 Feb 2019, 23:01 »

As consistently as noobs are corrected for calling the God of This Comic Universe "Jeff," there is a certain irony in the tolerance displayed this past week for mangling the pickled pepper picking pecker's name.  If we must see him again perhaps Mr. Piper will perturb Faye who will no doubt please the population present in these precincts by punching the pompous poultroon's protruding proboscis.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #219 on: 10 Feb 2019, 23:33 »

Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #220 on: 10 Feb 2019, 23:44 »


Feel free to call Peter a dick, a philanderer, call him out for othering - whatever you like. But even though it's impossible to hurt a finctional character's feelings, the day will come when someone who identifies strongly with the character you are poking fun at will decide this is not the community for them (less likely for someone like Peter, more likely for someone like Tilly). They will turn away from this place because they will see us as the dicks.

And you know what? They will probably have a point.

This could be happening already. The number of people voting in the poll has fallen by 20% in the last year.
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #221 on: 10 Feb 2019, 23:51 »

Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?

Dunno, mate. I didn't time it. I just typed it straight into the edit box.

Why do you ask? Not out of admiration, I imagine.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #222 on: 11 Feb 2019, 00:02 »

Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?

Dunno, mate. I didn't time it. I just typed it straight into the edit box.

Why do you ask? Not out of admiration, I imagine.

I was talking to OldGoat, not you.
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #223 on: 11 Feb 2019, 00:21 »

Oops, my bad! Sorry.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #224 on: 11 Feb 2019, 03:27 »

Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?
No sweat and not long at all.  I'm worthless at constructing rhymes, but alliteration just rolls out of my skull.
« Last Edit: 11 Feb 2019, 08:29 by OldGoat »
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #225 on: 11 Feb 2019, 05:29 »

Also, it’s othering because white Americans don’t ask other white Americans where they are from. It’s a question that implies you aren’t yourself American.

I get asked at least once a week where I am from, and I am as white as can be (have been in the US for >10 yrs now). I have always assumed the question was merely out of interest and been happy to talk about my background. There is still such a thing as genuine interest in people's stories....
To presume the same question to my non-white fellow expats is always coming from a bad place goes a bit far. My gf certainly doesn't presume that (ethnic Thai but in US for >20 years now, also gets asked regularly), should she?   

I don't disagree with the premise that for those with non-white ethnical backgrounds, the reason for being asked "where are you from" may more often be negative (and perhaps sometimes racist, yes), but depending on context/situation the question in fact may often be simply curiosity/interest in your story....
One of my friends (who is, like @Akima, ethnic Han, grew up in Canada and the USA) has been living in the Netherlands for a couple of years now.
For her, she took issue with the question where she is from the first year or so after moving to the Netherlands, for similar reasons as many have pointed out above. For her, it took about a year before she realized that the vast majority of people asking where simply doing so because they were interested in her and her personal story, not because they thought she wasn't a true Dutch citizen or didn't belong there. For her she said it had to a lot with her growing up and having had some bad experiences with being 'othered' back in Canada and to some degree the US though.



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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #226 on: 11 Feb 2019, 08:52 »

The problem is that is often followed up with questions that dismiss your previous answers.
 Example:
"Where are you from?"
"New York."
"Yea, but where were you born?"
"New York"
"Okay but where are your parents from"

etc etc etc

Can the question be innocent? Yes. But it often belies an unspoken, and often unconscious, assumption that you are not, as Akima has pointed out, a real member of your society. I'm not saying that every white person who asks a POC where they are from is racist, but context is important. How and when the question is asked matters.  And equating the experiences of white folks who get asked that question and the experience of POC who get the same question is naive at best and disingenuous or willfully ignorant at worst.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #227 on: 11 Feb 2019, 11:20 »

Okay, I express this as an exasperated human, not a mod.

But you would not believe how easy I found it to treat people with more respect when my response to people with colour or anyone who has a characteristic I do not share was to just listen and enact what they ask.

My experience, as a white, cis, queer male, is not the same as that of people of colour, women, transpeople, non-binary people, and arguably straight men although I moved comfortable in those circles for decades so I definitely got a pretty strong experience of it.

These experiences simply are not comparable, even as a white person in a country where that makes you a minority.

Life got so much easier when I stopped white person responding and just started listening and enacting. It's not like I am saying there is no room for discussion, and I am not singling anyone out.

Nobody is calling anyone a monster, or an asshole, or racist or even 'a racist.' They are telling you their experience, and it also shouldn't be their job to do that anyway, so frankly I am just eternally grateful whenever I get to hear these experiences and thoughts.

This is WAY more strawman than this thread deserves, but I have been thinking about this a lot lately and the more I realise how much my own behaviour can be both charmed and damaging the more I wonder how some minority folk aren't just screaming endlessly into a pillow whenever they have to interact with others.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #228 on: 11 Feb 2019, 11:49 »

Tova, thought provoking.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #229 on: 11 Feb 2019, 16:42 »

Seriously, mate, how long did you sweat over a notepad to compose that?
No sweat and not long at all.  I'm worthless at constructing rhymes, but alliteration just rolls out of my skull.

I'd enjoy seeing an alliteration competition between you and Akima.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #230 on: 11 Feb 2019, 17:09 »

Also, it’s othering because white Americans don’t ask other white Americans where they are from. It’s a question that implies you aren’t yourself American.

I get asked at least once a week where I am from, and I am as white as can be (have been in the US for >10 yrs now). I have always assumed the question was merely out of interest and been happy to talk about my background. There is still such a thing as genuine interest in people's stories....
To presume the same question to my non-white fellow expats is always coming from a bad place goes a bit far. My gf certainly doesn't presume that (ethnic Thai but in US for >20 years now, also gets asked regularly), should she?   

I don't disagree with the premise that for those with non-white ethnical backgrounds, the reason for being asked "where are you from" may more often be negative (and perhaps sometimes racist, yes), but depending on context/situation the question in fact may often be simply curiosity/interest in your story....
One of my friends (who is, like @Akima, ethnic Han, grew up in Canada and the USA) has been living in the Netherlands for a couple of years now.
For her, she took issue with the question where she is from the first year or so after moving to the Netherlands, for similar reasons as many have pointed out above. For her, it took about a year before she realized that the vast majority of people asking where simply doing so because they were interested in her and her personal story, not because they thought she wasn't a true Dutch citizen or didn't belong there. For her she said it had to a lot with her growing up and having had some bad experiences with being 'othered' back in Canada and to some degree the US though.

I have never been asked that question unless I first indicate that I'm "not from here."  Such as mentioning having moved to my current state in the US ~9 years ago, or missing mountains, or when visiting a friend at a large gathering with people from hours around.  Or back at college, where people were from across the country.

Now, I'm generally 'not from here.'  I'm not living near the state I grew up in, I was not born in the state I grew up in, I have no family living in either the state I grew up in, or the one I was born in.  My father was not born in this country, my grandfather wasn't born in this country, nor were my great-grandparents.

But I blend into the crowd, and don't have a notably distinct accent for where I live.  So nobody asks me where I'm from unless I've indicated the answer's not local.

The 3 examples you mention are people who *are* from elsewhere.  This context can put a very different light on things from someone who is local, but gets treated as if they're not.  A friend of mine has dealt with "where are you from" many times, and her answer is, completely honestly, "Texas."  "No, I mean where are you *from*."  Her daughter needs to go more generations back.  Where's she from?  Midwest.  Where are her parents from?  Midwest and Texas.  No, like, where's her *family from*...
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Torlek

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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #231 on: 11 Feb 2019, 18:58 »

Okay, I express this as an exasperated human, not a mod.

But you would not believe how easy I found it to treat people with more respect when my response to people with colour or anyone who has a characteristic I do not share was to just listen and enact what they ask.

My experience, as a white, cis, queer male, is not the same as that of people of colour, women, transpeople, non-binary people, and arguably straight men although I moved comfortable in those circles for decades so I definitely got a pretty strong experience of it.

These experiences simply are not comparable, even as a white person in a country where that makes you a minority.

Life got so much easier when I stopped white person responding and just started listening and enacting. It's not like I am saying there is no room for discussion, and I am not singling anyone out.

Nobody is calling anyone a monster, or an asshole, or racist or even 'a racist.' They are telling you their experience, and it also shouldn't be their job to do that anyway, so frankly I am just eternally grateful whenever I get to hear these experiences and thoughts.

This is WAY more strawman than this thread deserves, but I have been thinking about this a lot lately and the more I realise how much my own behaviour can be both charmed and damaging the more I wonder how some minority folk aren't just screaming endlessly into a pillow whenever they have to interact with others.

Exactly this. If a person from a traditionally oppressed group tells you something is offensive and you're from one or more of the groups that traditionally oppress them, SHUT UP AND LISTEN. Your opinions don't matter unless they're asked for.
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Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #232 on: 13 Feb 2019, 07:31 »

... I never could figure out a narrative purpose for Hannelore mangling Tilly's name, unless it was to show us how much Hannelore resented her as a symbol of Beatrice's meddling in her life.
You misinterpret. Hannelore was calling Tilly "Taffy" because that's the name she heard from her mother, and she simply didn't hear the multiple corrections. When she finally did, she was properly contrite about it.
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3931-3935 (4th to 8th February 2019)
« Reply #233 on: 13 Feb 2019, 17:18 »

Of course, Jeph's narrative purpose for Hannelore getting Tilly's name wrong is unknowable, but I feel motivated enough to take a proper look at this narrative arc and see what meaning we can wrestle from it. Just bear in mind that this is my personal reading only, and can't claim it to be universal.

Let's go.

Number 3607: A Noble Steed

'Ah, yes. Taffy, or something like that?'
''Thank you, mother," you'll say. "You're always correct, ..."


There's nothing like the image of animal abuse (robo or otherwise) to quickly set up the villain of the piece. But this is also a thematic setup. Beatrice is disregarding the agency of the horse, subjugating it to her will. Maybe she'd even argue that this is best for the horse. It's easy to see an analogy between this and the way she is treating Hannelore. So this sets up the basic conflict of the arc.

Number 3609: Unstoppable

'You are exactly the kind of person my mother would hire.'

Tilly is exhibiting the same trait here - Beatrice's behaviour has rubbed off on them. So now we can see the basic conflict play out between the two of them.

Number 3610: Use Case

'I just don't think there's anything for you to do, Taffy.

Hannelore gets Tilly's name wrong for the first time. Remember Beatrice's claim that she is "always correct?" In spite of Hannelore's fury at her mother, she is, on some level, still accepting what Beatrice is saying. This will become clearer later, but this is the first hint that both Hannelore and Tilly are being fundamentally misled by Beatrice. Yet, the conflict will need to play out between them before the root cause (Beatrice's disregard for others) can be properly addressed.

Number 3612: Daily Abultions

'Oh, I'm going to enjoy working for you, ma'am!'

The first hint of the potential for them to become fast friends if they can resolve this conflict.

Number 3614: Dogs ARE Good

'How long have you been working for my mother?'

And the first hint of Hannelore's realisation that Tilly's behaviours have been strongly influenced by Beatrice.

Number 3617: Laying Down The Law

'Isn't that pretty messed up, though? To disregard someone else's agency like that?'

Hannelore finally addresses head on the central conflict between her and Tilly (and with Beatrice, by extension), and in doing so, breaks the spell Beatrice has over Tilly.

Number 3624: She Really Blue It

Hannelore realises that she was essentially guilty of the same thing - hurting someone after being misled by Beatrice.

Number 3635: The Other Shoe Drops

'We're going to see my mother tomorrow.'

Title just about says it all. Hannelore realises the truth about her mother.

Number 3638: Just So We're Clear

'I thought you were being your usual out-of-touch self ... But this wasn't about helping me at all.

Climax of the story. Speaks for itself.

Number 3640: It Will Come Out In The Wash

(very meta title)

'I'm sorry, Tilly. My mother used us both.'

Apotheosis. What has come out in the wash? Hannelore and Tilly are now fast friends after realising that Tilly's behaviour and Hannelore's misnaming of Tilly had the same root cause: Beatrice. That's not to absolve either of blame for what they did, but to recognise that what they have in common is far stronger than their past differences.



To cut a long story short (too late): Hannelore's misnaming of Tilly feeds into the story of how both of them were misled into thinking that Beatrice was looking out for them. It gave Hannelore empathy with Tilly's plight, as Hannelore had hurt Tilly after accepting something said by Beatrice, just as Tilly had done. It also revealed a quite positive aspect of Tilly's personality - they were quite patient in a situation where many others would have been aggrieved.

Hannelore's realisation of Tilly's real name is also kind of a trigger for her realisation that Tilly is, in spite of their mistake, a good person, and that Beatrice is the one who truly deserves her wrath. You could even see it as a metaphor for Hannelore's inability to see the real Tilly - she was looking at her mother.

I think that's the most effort I've ever put into analysing a QC arc, but I think it was one of the more interesting ones.

I do hope that forumites who have never forgiven Tilly's initial behaviour can finally come around to reevaluating them, just as Hannelore has managed to do.
« Last Edit: 13 Feb 2019, 17:30 by Tova »
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