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[TheEvilDog]

Maybe the question shouldn't be "why are the new films so bad?" and instead should be "why were the original films so enjoyable?"

There's obviously something in the old trilogy that people loved and that worked on some level. Maybe it was the time, maybe it was the old school special effects, maybe the characters were so enjoyable. Maybe people are looking at the old films through the haze of nostalgia and holding the new films to a much higher and stricter standard?

It seems to me that the core concept of the prequel trilogy was sound, just an over-reliance on green screen and CGI brought it down and while some of the actors were some of the best of the time (and still are), they were utilised properly. In response, you get the sequel trilogy where they seem to think that they have to recapture the essence of what made the original trilogy work - the core trio, the rebels fighting against an evil force, the family member fallen to the Dark Side, the deaths of the mentors. Only, it feels forced. The Luke-Leia-Han trio worked because of the chemistry of the actors combined with how they were drawn together works, whereas Rey-Finn-Poe feels so contrived and while there is some working chemistry, it doesn't seem to have the lifelong friendship seen elsewhere.

Its trying to formulize a film that worked 40 years ago and only now realising that the formula can't work anymore.

[BenRG]

Its trying to formulize a film that worked 40 years ago and only now realising that the formula can't work anymore.

To me, it's less 'the formula doesn't work anymore'. The OT is still popular, after all. The problem is attempting to reuse the formula simply by plugging new characters into it instead of telling an organic next logical set of stories in the saga. IMO at least, the next logical step would have been the Balance that the Prophecy of the Chosen One spoke of and was never achieved by Anakin. Instead we're just getting a retread of old paths.

[TheEvilDog]

From what I understand about the prophecy, Anakin did bring about balance to the Force - by slaughtering the Jedi and eventually killing Palpatine, he brought balance by removing the two toxic sides that were using the Force. He brought both sides down to nothing, leaving the galaxy open to new ideas and new interpretations.

[Theta9]

From what I understand about the prophecy, Anakin did bring about balance to the Force - by slaughtering the Jedi and eventually killing Palpatine, he brought balance by removing the two toxic sides that were using the Force. He brought both sides down to nothing, leaving the galaxy open to new ideas and new interpretations.

Or as somebody i don't remember once commented, "Considering that the Jedi outnumber the Sith a thousand to two, wouldn't 'bringing balance to the Force' involve a lot of dead Jedi?"

[BenRG]

It's a nice snark but, to me, the 'Balance' was always an issue of the extreme nature of both side's views: Absolute Light vs Absolute Dark. There has to be some kind of third path. Some controversial Jedi, like Qui-Gon were trying to find it.

[Theta9]

I'm curious as to how Yoda and the council were "toxic".

[TheEvilDog]

I'm curious as to how Yoda and the council were "toxic".

Well maybe not toxic, but they definitely set themselves up to fail.
There are a couple of videos on Youtube that discuss how the Jedi mindset helped hasten their destruction and downfall.
Such as this video. And this video. And this.

But two more visual examples are when Yoda is training Luke on Dagobah, the "No. Try Not. Do or Do not. There is no try." which is actually a terrible thing to say when teaching someone, because it ignores the teaching value in failure. And then when Luke returns to confront Yoda about Vader being Anakin, you can see that Yoda doesn't want to discuss the emotional timebomb about to go off, in fact some people think that Yoda was willing himself to die to get out of that conversation.

The point is that the Jedi cut themselves off from emotions, thinking of as ways that someone might fall to the Dark Side, without realising that they were doing something just as bad themselves. Look at how Luke redeems Vader and how Vader defeats the Emperor, its love. Its a son's love for his father and a father's love for his son that allow them to do that respectively. And that's something that wouldn't have been possible using the teachings of the Jedi.

[Tova]

As for Leia...? Well, there's always: "Put that thing away, you're gonna get us all killed!" Han was never dominant in that relationship, which was always fully equal with both of them saving each other many times.

I might have believed your other examples without a thought if this weren't such a desperate reach.

I certainly don't think it's true that people hate the films because the formula stopped working. Rogue One was popular, and it is just as much of a retread of older films as any of the Star Wars films, the original included. The opening of Last Jedi certainly didn't follow the expected formula of Luke being a Yoda figure to Rey; and that was hated. And if you look at other bits of the film that were particularly hated, they were not the bits that were copied from Return of the Jedi.

Right now, I am watching hate brigading on the WoW new expansion cinematic that portrays another beloved lore figure being defeated by a female, and it's hard to tell myself that there isn't a pattern there.

It's a nice snark but, to me, the 'Balance' was always an issue of the extreme nature of both side's views: Absolute Light vs Absolute Dark. There has to be some kind of third path. Some controversial Jedi, like Qui-Gon were trying to find it.

Here I agree, with one small quibble: I don't think it's so much, "Absolute light versus absolute dark" as it is, "Cutting off all emotions versus being ruled by them." The middle path being, "staying in touch with emotions without being ruled by them." Yeah, what Castlerook said.

The problem is attempting to reuse the formula simply by plugging new characters into it instead of telling an organic next logical set of stories in the saga.

If there is one thing I've learned from watching the QC thread, and from studying film in general, is that one person's organic next logical step in storytelling is another's trash.

And for all of the people who like to copy and paste the phrase "Bad Storytelling" in their criticisms, that's really not telling us anything more than the bare fact that the writer didn't like it. Which is fine. If you didn't like it, that's valid. But you know, everyone else has an opinion, too. And anyone who wants to advance the idea that their opinion has greater objective validity needs to do better than that.

(click to show/hide)

[JoeCovenant]

The worst aspect is that she has been presented as a fully-fledged perfect heroine with no obvious explanation of where these skills come from.

Luke Skywalker jumped from crop-dusting farm-boy to ace fighter-pilot in a couple of days, with no explanation of where those skills came from,

Sorry, but I disagree.
Luke's latent skills are hinted at a couple of times during IV.

"I understand you've become quite the pilot yourself"
"Who's gonna fly it kid? You?" "You bet I could. I'm not such a bad..."
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16"

Luke had a basically normal upbringing where flying certain vehicles was clearly *a thing*.
We are supposed to believe Rey was to all intents and purposes "marooned" on Tattoin Jakku as a toddler (more or less) so where is her life experience supposed to have come from?

And Luke at LEAST had the tiniest grounding in the force AND Obi-Wan holding his mental hand during the trench run.
That, of course AFTER he almost killed himself being too enthusiastic flying in in the first place.

(ETA)
And, of course, Luke's whole arc in the original saga was one of growth and learning.
He wasn't immediately able to read minds or (as some would have us believe) pull knowledge of the force from (arguably) the most powerful force user we've seen on screen. (Vader never stopped a laser bolt mid flight).
Even after some solo training (Empire) he couldn't sense a Wampa creeping up on him, nor react quickly enough to avoid its attack.
And after some training with Yoda he went to stand against Vader and got his arse kicked, and hand removed.
Even in the end, he only 'triumphed' because of Anakin's intervention.
Luke's arc was one of tentative steps, over reaching, failure, more attempts, more failure and eventual triumph after loss and a lot of time (and training) and... a little bit of luck. Despite Obi-Wan's protestations that there's no such thing!

The biggest problem (character-wise) with Rey is that she can't have that same arc because they totally overplayed her hand in Ep7.
And worse so in Ep8. (Flying rock anyone?)

But again, this is NOT Daisy's fault. Nor anything remotely to do with that fact that Rey is female.
It's bad writing, nothing more or less.

[Tova]

So, I would tend to agree with your (and others') well-made points regarding Rey's character arc, at least to a degree. Probably it's my bias and affection towards Star Wars in general, but although TLJ has well-publicised flaws - just as many of the Star Wars films do, as you would well know - none of those flaws entirely detracted from my enjoyment of the film. Actually, people are surprised when they talk to me and I profess neither contempt nor love of the film. No-one likes people who refuse to take an extreme position these days, I guess.

Having said that, I would say that Rogue One is my favourite of the newer Star Wars films by a comfortable margin. The interesting thing about that is that the character arc of Jyn is also quite arguably not well written, in that she is for much of the film an entirely passive protagonist. She reacts to events rather than propelling them.

I've seen all-too-many passionate arguments in favour of why TLJ is awful, and equally impassioned arguments in favour of why it is a great film. All of these arguments have good points, which is why I feel comfortable sitting in the middle, seeing the film as one with strengths and weaknesses. And while I still think that sexism is a factor in some of the hate, I also recall being surprised by the level of hate against Jar-Jar back in the day. I didn't especially like him myself, but I didn't like ewoks either, and they didn't generate this much hate. Was it just the time? The dawn of internet culture where groupthink tends to amplify all positive and negative reactions in a strange kind of positive feedback loop?

I am endlessly fascinated to watch it all play out. Mark Hamill is right - Star Wars fans are UPFs.

[Theta9]

Mark Hamill is right - Star Wars fans are UPFs.

? ?

[Tova]

It's Mark's term. It stands for Ultra-Passionate Fans.

[Torlek]

I also recall being surprised by the level of hate against Jar-Jar back in the day. I didn't especially like him myself, but I didn't like ewoks either, and they didn't generate this much hate.

The Ewoks do have the benefit of not being basically plucked from a minstrel show.

[BenRG]

I also recall being surprised by the level of hate against Jar-Jar back in the day. I didn't especially like him myself, but I didn't like ewoks either, and they didn't generate this much hate.

The Ewoks do have the benefit of not being basically plucked from a minstrel show.

Jar-Jar is a good example of just how odd George Lucas's approach is to story-telling, at least from a neurotypical standpoint. It's generally agreed that he strongly depends on his script editors and assistant directors to be able to deliver narrative in a concise and clear manner because his writing simply can't be easily translated into on-screen events.

In the case of Jar-Jar, it didn't help that he insisted that he was the most important character in The Phantom Menace and honestly couldn't work out what was supposed to be so offensive about him.

[Tova]

George Lucas is possibly the only director I can think of who, when he opens his mouth, perplexes rather than elucidates.

[Case]

From what I understand about the prophecy, Anakin did bring about balance to the Force - by slaughtering the Jedi and eventually killing Palpatine, he brought balance by removing the two toxic sides that were using the Force. He brought both sides down to nothing, leaving the galaxy open to new ideas and new interpretations.

I wouldn't call Luke 'nothing' ...

The EU explores that every now and then - particularly the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi cycles have a nice twist on the whole balance-thingy. One of the Solo brats - they're all about Luke's level of talent (i.e. "Chosen One ++"), but Jacen turns out to be hilariously overpowered and becomes kind of 'Force-philosopher' to boot - goes on a quest to find other orders of Force users immediately after the end of a horrible war. One of the orders he visits regards the Jedi as violent, dangerous extremists.

It isn't quite spelled out, but the suggestion given over the course of those 'explorations  into the backgrounds of Force-use' (largely in Fate of the Jedi) is that the Jedi kind of produce the Sith - not only as failed by-products of their training programmes, but as a necessary consequence of their particular way of using the Force-, their extreme adherence to one side.

Oh, and by being actually rather violent for an order ostensibly about peace and balance - one of the side-plots suggests that the Republic's very advanced prosthetic medical science is is an unintended consequence of the Jedi leaving legions of amputees in their wakes. Which in turn results in the Jedi becoming even less concerned about 'disarming' their opponents ...


P.S.: Or I got that all of that completely ass-backwards - I binged through most of the EU inside of three months a few years back, not bothering much with all the subtle clues and loose ends the EU writers tended to leave for each other to create those extremely long arcs. By the time I got to the big exposition at the end of FoTJ, I realized that those little hints had been kinda important ...

I also recall being surprised by the level of hate against Jar-Jar back in the day.

Same here - though that could have been a function of the allusions to pidgin and thus the racial overtones getting lost in the German-language dubbing.

... but I didn't like ewoks either ... 

"You ... ! You MONSTER!" 

Jar-Jar is a good example of just how odd George Lucas's approach is to story-telling, at least from a neurotypical standpoint.

Trust me, he's weird to the atypical, too. 

[Case]

The worst aspect is that she has been presented as a fully-fledged perfect heroine with no obvious explanation of where these skills come from.

Luke Skywalker jumped from crop-dusting farm-boy to ace fighter-pilot in a couple of days, with no explanation of where those skills came from,

Sorry, but I disagree.
Luke's latent skills are hinted at a couple of times during IV.

<...>

All true, and back in the 80s, few people bothered with Luke learning Force Pull without any instruction whatsoever, or besting the Chosen One with only the briefest rudiments of formal combat training under his belt. But then Eps. I-III retroactively opened up a giant plot-hole by using Anakin's 20 years of dedicated training as background plot.

So if Anakin was the Chosen One, the most talented and powerful Jedi in centuries, and still needed two decades of daily instruction by the best teachers in the Galaxy to develop those powers, what kind of Force-monster does that make Luke? Or Rey, for that matter? And how do you invent challenges for someone like that? Someone so extremely powerful that  in his early 20s, he chops apart one of the best duelists in millennia after a bit of largely autodidactic practise every now and again? What kind of powers would someone like Luke Skywalker have in their thirties, forties or sixties, when they have practised for a few decades?

Timothy Zahn had a nice solution for that conundrum - By the time he enters middle-age, Luke has indeed become powerful enough to rip apart warships with his mind (He never does, he just ponders about Yoda and Palpatine likely having had the capability, and then asserts that he probably does, too), but discovers that the more he uses the Force to act on the Universe, the less sensitive he becomes to its 'guiding' aspects (like Force visions, or the defensive trance Jedi slip into when they deflect Blaster bolts).

But again, this is NOT Daisy's fault. Nor anything remotely to do with that fact that Rey is female.
It's bad writing, nothing more or less.

Not so much bad writing as writing the story you fell in love with as a kid over and over again. JJ Abrahams wasn't the first SW-writer to flog that dead horse, it's just that he's in his own league of awefull.

Methinks the 'Chosen One++' thingy was a permanent problem over the entire course of the EU already, long before Abrahams had a blast ruining other peoples' childhoods for the second time, and only a few writers like Zahn have found elegant solutions for the problem of inventing challenges for people who should be powerful enough to defeat mid-sized armies with a Force-sneeze.

[JoeCovenant]

The worst aspect is that she has been presented as a fully-fledged perfect heroine with no obvious explanation of where these skills come from.

Luke Skywalker jumped from crop-dusting farm-boy to ace fighter-pilot in a couple of days, with no explanation of where those skills came from,

Sorry, but I disagree.
Luke's latent skills are hinted at a couple of times during IV.

<...>

All true, and back in the 80s, few people bothered with Luke learning Force Pull without any instruction whatsoever, or besting the Chosen One with only the briefest rudiments of formal combat training under his belt.

The Dark Side...
IS the Dark Side stronger?
NO... quicker... easier to jopin in the fight.

Luke touched on that when he managed to take Vader down.
(One might then ask... how did he manage to push that temptation away...)

But we know he was with Yoda doing nothing BUT training for what, at least a year?
Still a feck of a lot more than Rey ever did.

[TheEvilDog]

One of the deleted scenes was Obi Wan giving Luke "The Jedi Guide For Dummies". Lot of cliff notes in that.

Seriously though, I imagine that both Kenobi and Yoda realised the failings of the Jedi and when training Luke only gave him the barest lessons on the Jedi philosophy, giving him more of an emphasis on defending himself and using the Force and leaving it to him to start the foundation for a new Force based order. Hence why Yoda decided to burn what was left of the archive.

[Tova]

But we know he was with Yoda doing nothing BUT training for what, at least a year?

We do? How do we know that? Sorry, not a hardcore fan here.

[TheEvilDog]

But we know he was with Yoda doing nothing BUT training for what, at least a year?

We do? How do we know that? Sorry, not a hardcore fan here.

There's a year between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. The general consensus is that when Luke recovered from his fight with Vader, he went back train with Yoda. Hence Luke's Jedi tricks at Jabba's palace.

[BenRG]

But we know he was with Yoda doing nothing BUT training for what, at least a year?

We do? How do we know that? Sorry, not a hardcore fan here.

There's a year between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. The general consensus is that when Luke recovered from his fight with Vader, he went back train with Yoda. Hence Luke's Jedi tricks at Jabba's palace.

Additionally, there was the time Luke was on Dagobah in The Empire Strikes Back whilst the Falcon was going to Bespin at a relative crawl on its secondary hyperdrive (we're talking about Star Trek warp speeds here - hundreds of times of lightspeed instead of the hundreds of thousands of times of lightspeed given by the main hyperdrive). This would have meant that Luke had several weeks with Yoda, possibly a few months, before the Executor was called to Bespin.

As a side note, it increases my respect for Boba Fett that he was willing to devote that amount of time to following the Falcon and determining where the best place was to call in the Empire to pick up their fugitives.

[Tova]

It sounds to me like Star Wars fans are a lot more willing to interpret events in a way that makes the original films make sense than they are the new ones.

[Case]

But we know he was with Yoda doing nothing BUT training for what, at least a year?

We do? How do we know that? Sorry, not a hardcore fan here.

There's a year between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. The general consensus is that when Luke recovered from his fight with Vader, he went back train with Yoda. Hence Luke's Jedi tricks at Jabba's palace.

First time I ever heard about that theory.

Legends lore covered that one year in detail in Shadows of the Empire - 'the Star Wars movie Lucas never made' - and had Luke & the gang mostly busy with searching the Galaxy for Han and the small matter of running a Rebellion. Luke trains some on his lonesome on Tatoine (after finding Ben's Journal(s), which wasn't originally in Shadows, I believe?), but receives no direct instruction from either Ben or Yoda during that year (Methinks that branch of lore sprang that famous deleted RoTJ scene of Luke building his green saber in Ben's hut). 'Shadows' was a fan favourite in the 90s and considered a solid part of canon ... well, before 'canon' became 'Legends'.

And (New) Canon lore is still largely mum about the period between ESB and RoTJ.

As to plausibility - it doesn't make much sense in either Universe's established canon. It opens a giant plot hole around the scene in which Luke asks Yoda about Vader being his father, and proceeds to angrily confront both Yoda and Ben about not-lying-just-not-telling-the-truth to him about the small matter of trying to trick him into offing his old man. That scene is a major plot point in RoTJ that would be cast into doubt by this theory - Luke re-evaluates his relationships to both his Father and Sister, and the decisions he arrives at due to the things he learns in that one scene drive a large part of the plot of the entire movie.
True, it's not impossible that Luke would spend a lot of time with Yoda before working up the courage to finally bring up the issue, but it's definitely not the impression given by the movie. Furthermore, Yoda makes a point of commenting on Luke's shock about the state of his health - it's implied that they haven't seen each other in quite a while. Yeah I know that people can fall apart in a matter of weeks, but Yoda isn't people, he's a grumpy, green nongentinarian alien who sustains himself on awful tea and his deep connection to the force.

[TheEvilDog]

Luke trains some on his lonesome on Tatoine (after finding Ben's Journal(s), which wasn't originally in Shadows, I believe?),

Hence the "Jedi Guide For Dummies"

[Case]

It's a nice snark but, to me, the 'Balance' was always an issue of the extreme nature of both side's views: Absolute Light vs Absolute Dark. There has to be some kind of third path. Some controversial Jedi, like Qui-Gon were trying to find it.

I'm curious as to how Yoda and the council were "toxic".

I couldn't support the point without essentially copy-pasting the better part of several interlocking EU-trilogies (see above) - and even then, that 'point' is more hinted at-, or put forward as lingering doubts & suspicions in the internal monologue of some characters, rather than being explicitly spelled out - but BenRG isn't the first to put forward the idea that the Jedi's particular way of using the Force is an essential part of the teensyweensy problem of Sith Lords popping up out of nowhere every other millennium to devastate various incarnations of the Republic. Several EU writers have expanded on that idea to various degrees, and back when those books were written, Lucas Arts had a dedicated department that kept a tight grip on the canonization of lore.

Basically "It's plausible if Sue Rostoni doesn't object", and on that front, she did everything but - the two trilogies I have in mind in particular became bestsellers.

[TheEvilDog]

There's a marvellous quote from Jolee Bindo, a Grey Jedi whose wife fell to the Dark Side and he left the Jedi because they didn't punish him for not killing her. Its actually a whole devastating condemnation of the Jedi's belief of emotions.

"Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled, but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love, that's what they should teach you to beware, but love itself will save you, not condemn you."

[JoeCovenant]

It sounds to me like Star Wars fans are a lot more willing to interpret events in a way that makes the original films make sense than they are the new ones.

Not at all.

This was always the way of things even before the "Prequel" trilogy.
The timelines for the original trilogy have been known (again) WAY before the prequel trilogy.
Empire was between 3 to 4 years after ANH and RotJ was another year after Empire.

(Remember there was a SIXTEEN YEAR gap between RotJ and TPM being made!)

As for TFA and TLJ, there is NO gap between them at all.

What takes Mr Skywalker at least 4-5 years - to get to a point where he can defend himself well against Vader -  (A depleted Anakin, remember... not nearly as powerful as he had been - which I AM willing to admit is retro'd due to the actors playing Vader not being as nimble and fast (or CGI'd and Wireworked as the newest movies) - and only beat him by getting in touching distance of falling to the Dark Side - but then getting his arse kicked by Palpatine - - -  is something which is totally outdistanced by Rey, with no training, over a matter of days, FAR surpassing anything we saw Luke do, ever.

At LEAST for TRoS (hopefully) there will be SOME explanation for Rey's knowledge (The Books) but even then... Disney's timeline say TRoS is set only a year after TLJ... It would be refreshing to maybe see Rey NOT be this Uber Force User this time round.

Anyway... THAT is why "Us Star Wars fans" are of the opinion that it's a totally false comparison to even attempt to give Luke and Rey the same "neither of them had any training" backstory. Luke did... lot's of it... and we always knew he did.

No-one is suggesting these movies are 'Great Art' (despite ANH being based on classic movies and the good ol' "Hero's Journey" template) but this latest trilogy is just lazy.

(Edited to make it not one large paragraph...!!)

[Tova]

Anyway... THAT is why "Us Star Wars fans" are of the opinion that it's a totally false comparison to even attempt to give Luke and Rey the same "neither of them had any training" backstory. Luke did... lot's of it... and we always knew he did.

No, we didn't. That's what I'm saying.

[JoeCovenant]

Anyway... THAT is why "Us Star Wars fans" are of the opinion that it's a totally false comparison to even attempt to give Luke and Rey the same "neither of them had any training" backstory. Luke did... lot's of it... and we always knew he did.

No, we didn't. That's what I'm saying.

You may not have.
Others did. (Us "hardcore fans" as you put it     )

[Theta9]

It's a nice snark but, to me, the 'Balance' was always an issue of the extreme nature of both side's views: Absolute Light vs Absolute Dark. There has to be some kind of third path. Some controversial Jedi, like Qui-Gon were trying to find it.

I'm curious as to how Yoda and the council were "toxic".

I couldn't support the point without essentially copy-pasting the better part of several interlocking EU-trilogies....

The books are not canon. Only the recent Aftermath trilogy is canon, bridging the gap between eps 6 and 7. Not even Zahn's excellent Thrawn trilogy, a better Episode 7 than The Force Awakens could aspire to be, is canon since the new films started coming out.

[JoeCovenant]

It's a nice snark but, to me, the 'Balance' was always an issue of the extreme nature of both side's views: Absolute Light vs Absolute Dark. There has to be some kind of third path. Some controversial Jedi, like Qui-Gon were trying to find it.

I'm curious as to how Yoda and the council were "toxic".

I couldn't support the point without essentially copy-pasting the better part of several interlocking EU-trilogies....

The books are not canon. Only the recent Aftermath trilogy is canon, bridging the gap between eps 6 and 7. Not even Zahn's excellent Thrawn trilogy, a better Episode 7 than The Force Awakens could aspire to be, is canon since the new films started coming out.

Which is another ludicrous decision.
They were canon enough for 30+ years!

[Tova]

Anyway... THAT is why "Us Star Wars fans" are of the opinion that it's a totally false comparison to even attempt to give Luke and Rey the same "neither of them had any training" backstory. Luke did... lot's of it... and we always knew he did.

No, we didn't. That's what I'm saying.

You may not have.
Others did. (Us "hardcore fans" as you put it     )

Yes. I know.

I am perhaps not explaining myself to you clearly.

Two films contain similar plot holes. One, you scrabble to explain. The other, you dismiss as "Bad Storytelling."

Maybe in the future, there will be enough books added to the canon to fill the plot holes in your head for you. Or maybe not, if you don't want them to.

[TheEvilDog]

That's always going to be a problem though.

Novels have been written about what happened between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back and between that and Return of the Jedi, each one explaining what happened and filled in the gaps between the films. Then Disney decided "Nope" and we get the Legends continuity instead. And we're back to a point where its left to the fans to fill in the gaps, again.

Most people have some scant bit of information to work with;
- We know that the Jedi Archives weren't completely destroyed. (Various sources from the movies, series and comics)
- We know that Qui Gon Jinn was able to become a Force Ghost. (End of Revenge of the Sith)
- We know that he was able to pass that information to his former Master and his former Padawan. (End of RotS)
- We know that Obi Wan was able to communicate with Luke. (Trench run, A New Hope)
- We know that Lando and Chewie are going to search for Han. (End of The Empire Strikes Back)
- We know that Luke needed time to process Vader being Anakin Skywalker, and that he needed to recover from his injuries and ass being kicked. (Empire Strikes Back)

So from all that, we can assume that Obi Wan was able to help teach Luke something between films and that Luke confronted him about the "I-didn't-lie,-I-just-didn't-tell-you-the-whole-story". But he also needed to train and learn something more than Force Throwing stuff around. Luke wasn't a Jedi Master going to Jabba's palace, he was a crash-coursed Jedi Knight who had to improvise a lot.

The final confrontation with Darth Vader was as much a psychological battle that started well before the lightsabers were broken out. Not to mention that Luke was a young man fighting a crippled burn victim well past his own prime. Vader's only advantage was brute strength and even then that was lost when he threatened Leia.

From what we also seen, its quite possible that some people who quite powerful in the Force don't necessarily need training in their abilities, possibly because its so natural for them, the real training from the Sith and Jedi is how to properly focus that ability.

[Tova]

From what we also seen, its quite possible that some people who quite powerful in the Force don't necessarily need training in their abilities, possibly because its so natural for them, the real training from the Sith and Jedi is how to properly focus that ability.

This seems like a natural interpretation of many of the films.

[TheEvilDog]

Pretty much. If you watch The Phantom Menace, the Jedi Council say that it won't train Anakin because he's nine years old. They admit he's strong in the Force, he's just far too old to undergo training.

Bear in mind that this is a kid who was a phenomenal pilot, that's something that's thought to be connected to the Force, heightened reflexes and all that. He was also a skilled engineer, having built C-3PO from scraps.

Luke was an exceptional bush pilot and mechanic on one of the most inhospitable planets in the galaxy.

Rey was a scavenger on a planet fraught with danger, was a good pilot and mechanic. She's almost the one who had to defend her from other scavengers for most of her life, less a fighter, more a brawler in style.

Its quite possibly that Force Sensitives manifest their ability in their mechanical and piloting abilities, as all three protagonists were uneducated and informally trained before they were discovered. So its quite possibly that their ability in learning to fight is an extension of that natural ability to grasp and learn new ideas.

[JoeCovenant]

Anyway... THAT is why "Us Star Wars fans" are of the opinion that it's a totally false comparison to even attempt to give Luke and Rey the same "neither of them had any training" backstory. Luke did... lot's of it... and we always knew he did.

No, we didn't. That's what I'm saying.

You may not have.
Others did. (Us "hardcore fans" as you put it     )

Yes. I know.

I am perhaps not explaining myself to you clearly.

Two films contain similar plot holes. One, you scrabble to explain. The other, you dismiss as "Bad Storytelling."

Maybe in the future, there will be enough books added to the canon to fill the plot holes in your head for you. Or maybe not, if you don't want them to.

So examples of precisely why those plot holes are not the same at all aren't enough for you?

Okay, then.

[Tova]

Headcanon examples are not, no.

[JoeCovenant]

Headcanon examples are not, no.

And if I had only been using headcanon, I would agree with you.
Hell - if I was even only using Old School Extended Universe prior to the Disney Purge, you'd have a point...
(Luke pulling a Star Destroyer out of orbit for E.G.)

But surely you can't deny that Luke's journey was one of tentative first steps into the force (aboard the Falcon, having been zapped a few times by a flying remote) and taking his "first steps into a larger world". Which was followed by near catastrophe (getting trapped in the detention block and saved by Leia, and later almost killing himself on the death star run), to making a torpedo shot which not only had he already said was something he'd been able to do (womp rats) but was also something that Gold leader himself almost did) - hence, hardly miraculous - BUT still had Obi Wan whispering in his ear, but enough to show him on the true start of his voyage. ("The force will be with you, always.")

To personal growth in his Jedi skills (sketchy force pull for his lightsabre on Hoth - after almost getting killed by a Wampa), then saved from freezing by Han. To an indistinct, but implied decent, amount of time training under the 'greatest' of all Jedi masters - which shows him unable to lift an x-wing, but let's us see him carefully able to lift a stone or two (and artoo) - culminating in his own emotions leaving him open to the most horrific failure against Vader by facing him "too soon" and getting the over-loving tar kicked out of him (and losing a hand), with Vader barely having to lift his sabre to do so. (Although Luke gets a shot in!)

Which leads to still more growth over the 3 YEARS that followed, and even THEN facing failures by being out manoeuvred by the Emperor, by allowing Vader to know Leia was his sister, and only managing to "defeat" a rusty cyborg by flirting with the dark side - (you might argue *that* is head-canon, but I think the intent is VERY clear in the shot style, lead-up and music choice) - to eventually be saved from certain death at Palpatine's hands (literally!) by that same rusty cyborg.

Whereas... What failures did Rey undergo?
The second we see her in danger she holds every key required to escape and receives barely a scratch for her troubles.
She can pilot a correlian cruiser sight unseen, and evade TIE pilots who have been trained in such. She IS taken prisoner by Kylo, but then manages to resist his mind probes with no training and can MIND CONTROL a stormptrooper. She can stand toe to toe against the most powerful Force User we've ever seen on screen (blaster bolt freeze) who has been trained (one can only assume from birth) by Luke himself, and also later in life by Snoke!, after having a lightsabre for .. what.. two minutes (yes, yes - snarky, I know).. she can also  fight off multiple enemies at once (those enemies being Snokes personal bodyguards!!) using a weapon she has virtually training with other than training for half an hour (snark) against a static boulder, and even manages to hold Kylo to a 'draw' in a force tug-of war.  (And a Force-Push of war!)
(WAIT! EDIT! She does get thrown about by Snoke a couple of times... for effect.)
And then there's TLJ's flying rocks.
Basically, after a matter of days she is seen to be showing greater powers than ANY we have seen by any other Jedi Master.

Luke's journey was mapped out as a classical heroes is, (basically)  knowledge, learning, growth, defeat, rebirth and triumph.
Rey's has been... Triumph, Triumph, Triumph, Search for Learning and rejection of it, Triumph.

None of this is headcanon, Tova - it's all on screen.

Like I said in a previous post, at LEAST at the end of TLJ they left a crumb of hope for any further powers she may 'attain' in RoS by having her be in ownership of the old Jedi texts (and at LEAST a year having passed between those two movies according to Disney's timeline) ... but they should have done that when she was given Luke's sabre in TFA.
(Edited for spelling and adding one moment of "failure" for Rey)

[Case]

It's a nice snark but, to me, the 'Balance' was always an issue of the extreme nature of both side's views: Absolute Light vs Absolute Dark. There has to be some kind of third path. Some controversial Jedi, like Qui-Gon were trying to find it.

I'm curious as to how Yoda and the council were "toxic".

I couldn't support the point without essentially copy-pasting the better part of several interlocking EU-trilogies....

The books are not canon. Only the recent Aftermath trilogy is canon, bridging the gap between eps 6 and 7. Not even Zahn's excellent Thrawn trilogy, a better Episode 7 than The Force Awakens could aspire to be, is canon since the new films started coming out.

I know they aren't canon any more - I'm referring to the fact that they were once very much considered part of canon, back when Lucas Arts still ruled on that ('afaics'. 'IIRC'. etc.etc.).

TL;DR - BenRG didn't just conjure something up from his behind here, ideas very similar to the one he presented were explored in several rather successful novels (iirc, the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi cycles) that were parts of the old LucasArts canon (what is now considered 'Legends').

[Case]

Headcanon examples are not, no.

And if I had only been using headcanon, I would agree with you.
...

Hmmmmh - I see both of your points.

I agree with Tova that Rey's not needing much in the way of instruction is qualitatively not much different from Luke's besting Vader with only the barest amount of supervised training when considered from a post-prequel point of view.

I agree with you that Luke at least did receive some supervised training, and did undergo some semblance of a painful-learning journey - it was at least hinted at that noone can simply pick up a lightsaber and cut a powerful Dark Jedi to pieces because [We don't have time for a proper Hero's Journey].

I'll point out again that Luke's lack of training wasn't considered so egregious when the original trilogy came out because the prequel trilogy, which features Anakin's painstaking journey to master the Force over more than a decade, hadn't been created yet. As far as an 80s audience was concerned, Luke's could have been a perfectly proper Jedi training - there wasn't any other yardstick, no other Jedi-in-training had yet been shown.

In retrospect, i.e. from a post-prequel POV, both Luke and Rey are hilariously overpowered savants by the standard established in the prequels - i.e. the amount of training Anakin needed - especially in light of Anakin being touted as the strongest Jedi in aeons. IMO, Luke's case is already 'straining my suspension of disbelief, but [Screaming Spaceships. SCREAMING. IN SPACE ...]'. With Rey, they simply abandoned every pretence of even trying.

And yes, that is bad storytelling. Doesn't make the other example perfect, or even good storytelling, however.

[Case]

Also, let's all be fwiends. Please?

[Tova]

Just dropping in to say:

I've been terse in recent times mainly because I'm time-poor.
I will get to replying to Joe's post when I am not so time-poor. Which will be Real Soon Now.
I promise to be nice. 

I apologise if my terse posts are coming across as hostile or hotheaded. That's unintended. Any actual annoyance is at Joe's opinions, not at Joe who I still think is a Good Bloke (tm).

[JoeCovenant]

Couldn't find the last panel on its own anywhere! 

[Tova]

So, now that I have a bit of time, I guess the time has come to post something.

I was originally going to post more or less an essay. Then I decided, no stuff it, I'm posting nothing because it's pointless. Then I watched an amusing video that thought along my lines and thought to post that. Then I binned that idea as well.

Now, freed from the foolish idea of needing to convince anyone, an idea more doomed than a band of misfits' raid on an Imperial databank, I'll just dump my feelings on the matter and leave it there.

I was a kid when Star Wars came out. I played with the toys, I listened to the soundtrack. So I'm in the dead centre of the Star-Wars-nostalgia-kick demographic. Even though - I'll be honest with you - my immediate reaction to the major plot twist in Empire was, "Oh God, this is silly, my favourite thing is going soap operaish."

The whole movement of taking Star Wars Very Seriously, cataloging Force Powers, reams of expanded universe (or whatever it's been variously called during its long period of change), and intense fan theories have largely passed me by.

I'm not going to comment on Rey's character arc until the whole thing is done. Not now that I've decided trying to get people to take a second look is pointless. But I will at least mention that I am honestly bamboozled by the common opinion that Luke has been "desecrated" or whatever. Luke is not only given the strongest character arc of any of the Star Wars films in TLJ, but he also goes out in a way that is a beautiful summation of everything he learned. That final scene of his is probably one of my favourite Star Wars scenes of all time, maybe even my favourite

I'm not even going to try and prosecute that. Either you see it or you don't.

It's popular on YouTube and elsewhere to point out Mark Hamill's comment that he initially thought Rian was making a mistake, but no-one takes seriously the fact that Mark also has said that he changed his mind, thinking he's only saying that because Disney or because he has to. Even though he's Luke freaking Skywalker and could surely say whatever the heck he wants, him more than anyone else.

Almost certainly this is all simply my bias. The opening moments of TLJ played out as I expected. I didn't arrive at the films with this preconceived idea that it was obvious Luke would be a Yoda-type figure to Rey and that things between Luke and Rey would play out similarly to Luke+Yoda in Empire. Why people wanted The Last Jedi in that sense to continue to be entirely derivative, I don't understand. But then again, a couple of years ago or whenever it was, I picked up Marvel's Vader comic and, while it had a couple of nice moments, I overall found it to be heavyhanded and far too obvious, simply filling in details with no obvious desire to substantially further the story (in contrast to TLJ which has a clear intent to do so). So I've come to terms with the idea that what I want from the Star Wars films is not at all the same as the kind of, I guess, baddassery and spectacle that attracts many fans.

Like I said, it's not worth getting into the Rey argument. There are perfectly good reasons why, for example, Rey could stand up to Kylo in TFA, but I'm sure you're perfectly aware of them in spite of not bothering to mention them, so it's pointless to bring them up.

That's all. I'll go and enjoy The Last Skywalker when it's released. Warts and all, most likely, since they all have their warts. Even Rogue One, which I thought was marvellous.

As ever, your mileage may vary. And that's your prerogative.


P.S. Okay, two links after all, because why not?

Episode 9 Bingo

Too Late, Who Gives a Shit?

The second one is a YouTube video over half an hour long. I mean, really? Don't watch it. I was amused. Maybe you won't be.

Also edit: words.

[JoeCovenant]

Groovy post!
Couple of things...?

Like I said, it's not worth getting into the Rey argument. There are perfectly good reasons why, for example, Rey could stand up to Kylo in TFA, but I'm sure you're perfectly aware of them in spite of not bothering to mention them, so it's pointless to bring them up.

Personally... I'm not aware of any reasons at all that Rey could do what she did.
I would be willing to concede that he should take a little longer than his normal 0.2 seconds to despatch her, due to his being shot... like, say.. 0.4 seconds. But As for the rest... (mind reading, person manipulation etc etc.. nope I've seen no reasons for that.)

I'll go and enjoy The Last Skywalker when it's released. Warts and all, most likely, since they all have their warts. Even Rogue One, which I thought was marvellous.

The Last Skywalker... If that's a typo... well... but if that was intentional... Brilliant!

I already have my seats booked in our new Odeon LUXE cinema... quite expensive(!)
I've been reading a few things (non spoilers things) where the cast and JJ are finally being disparaging about TLJ, and discussing the way they are trying to 'overcome' it... I HATE to say this, because I felt this way for both the previous ones...

I have hope this will end well.
I really wanted to love the last two... I REALLY want to adore this last one.
And I REALLY hope I'm not disappointed !!

(And yeah... Rogue One kicks erse!!)

[Tova]

Completely unintentional, but too amusing to fix. I can just see myself calling them The Last Skywalker and The Rise of The Jedi now. 

I hope it will be a fitting conclusion! I always expect the worst, hope for the best with these things.

And I hope we don't see more of the kind of vitriol we've seen within the fanbase since TLJ, because it honestly drains me.

I would be willing to concede that he should take a little longer than his normal 0.2 seconds to despatch her, due to his being shot... like, say.. 0.4 seconds.

I thought he was trying to recruit her, not dispatch her. Same as the Vader v. Luke duel in Empire. Otherwise i guess it would have been over very quickly in both cases.

[JoeCovenant]

Completely unintentional, but too amusing to fix. I can just see myself calling them The Last Skywalker and The Rise of The Jedi now. 

I hope it will be a fitting conclusion! I always expect the worst, hope for the best with these things.

And I hope we don't see more of the kind of vitriol we've seen within the fanbase since TLJ, because it honestly drains me.

I would be willing to concede that he should take a little longer than his normal 0.2 seconds to despatch her, due to his being shot... like, say.. 0.4 seconds.

I thought he was trying to recruit her, not dispatch her. Same as the Vader v. Luke duel in Empire. Otherwise i guess it would have been over very quickly in both cases.

In the 2nd one, yeah I can appreciate that - but that doesn't explain her abilities and the reasons WHY he wold want to recruit her.

Annnnyway...... 

[Tova]

You don't see why, even though she's strong in the force, that's what Sith do, and it satisfactorily explains the whole scene.

Yeah, as I've been saying... you're actively seeking out logical explanations for one set of films, and actively resisting them for another.

Think about it. That's all I ask.

See ya on the flip side of the next one.

[JoeCovenant]

You don't see why, even though she's strong in the force, that's what Sith do, and it satisfactorily explains the whole scene.

Yeah, as I've been saying... you're actively seeking out logical explanations for one set of films, and actively resisting them for another.

Think about it. That's all I ask.

See ya on the flip side of the next one.

I'm not resisting them Tova, I just don't SEE them.
And I watched TFA last night just to see if I was missing something - but I don't think I am.
I paused the shots of "Young Rey" to see if she was maybe wearing youngling robes... Nope.
She's heard stories of Skywalker, but only so much that she thinks they are myths.
She doesn't know what the force is at all.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with a prodigy being strong with the force... it's the way she's just instantly able to use abililties immediately which we've only ever seen Obi Wan use (and he was Ooooold!)

I don't see the correlation.
But I also don't see anyone explaining why these things are "fine".

As for No:9...

Friday night late show!
(I'd LOVE JJ to give us an explanation of Rey's instant abilities... (Training as a youngling (feasible - she was old enough in TFA for that to be a thing... hypontised or similar to forget everything/one...) whereas it would be a bit... pat... it's still better than the Mary-Sueing.
(Yeah... I said it!!   )

And now.. pause...