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Poll

What age range were you in when you were in your first serious relationship?

14 to 19
- 19 (29.2%)
20 to 24
- 19 (29.2%)
25 to 29
- 7 (10.8%)
30 to 34
- 3 (4.6%)
35 to 39
- 1 (1.5%)
40 to 44
- 0 (0%)
45 to 49
- 0 (0%)
50 to 54
- 0 (0%)
55 to 60
- 0 (0%)
a different age range
- 0 (0%)
not interested
- 3 (4.6%)
none yet
- 8 (12.3%)
Sven is not a mooch
- 5 (7.7%)

Total Members Voted: 65


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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)  (Read 5165 times)

marbledmurrelet

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #200 on: 21 Aug 2020, 11:23 »

Going back to my original point about "queer relationships" - I understand the argument that relationships can't be queer or straight.  However, we talk about queer politics, queer art, queer music, queer fashion, queer culture., etc.  Does queerness inhabit everything queer people do, except for interpersonal relationships if the other person happens to be cis and of the (perceived) opposite gender?

If you're going at it with the presumption (which is what the comic suggests) that Claire "passes" I do agree on a day-to-day basis Martin's lived experience is pretty conventional.  However, if Claire did not pass he would deal with transphobia and (wrongly assigned) homophobia as part of his everyday life. Sort of like how if you're white and date a black person (as I have in the past) you become much more aware of casual racism that you would otherwise have been blind to.  It wouldn't make Martin himself queer of course, but it would make the "personal political" for him.
...Ah, oddtail already made the points I just typed, plus another good one.

Does a person need to be "visible" in order to be queer?

That being said, whether a relationship (or an individual) is considered queer is really up to them.
I hope you're not putting words in my mouth that I never said in any way. A person obviously doesn't need to be visibly queer in order to be queer. My question was about relationships, and it was a question. That you didn't answer. Why would you want to say you're in a "queer relationship" because of something about the identity or orientation of your partner? How does that make the relationship queer? I can see it make some amount of sense if the partner is visibly queer and it affects the way the relationship is treated (like in eschaton's example), but not if it doesn't make a difference for the relationship.

I mean, if people can self-identify their gender whatever they wish, they can also self-identify their sexuality however they wish.  So if someone who is in a relationship with a transwoman wants to call themselves queer, that's kinda up to them. 
Well, if an otherwise straight man wants to call himself queer on the basis of being in a relationship with a trans woman, I sure hope he tells her that so she can choose to let him self-identify without her. (In case it wasn't clear, that's implying she's not a "real woman", again.)
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Torlek

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #201 on: 21 Aug 2020, 11:51 »

Again, queer is a self ascribed label and shouldn't be thrust upon anyone from the outside.

/thread

Seriously, reading this thread has sounded like middle schoolers arguing over who is on which dodgeball team.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #202 on: 21 Aug 2020, 13:54 »

Let's not get into discussing the quality of discourse, eh?
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marbledmurrelet

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #203 on: 21 Aug 2020, 14:40 »

Honestly, we're discussing queer - even trans - issues. On the internet. There's been no name-calling, no severe -phobia that I'm aware of, I don't even think we've confirmed Godwin's Law. What more do you want?
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #204 on: 21 Aug 2020, 15:19 »

I mean, if people can self-identify their gender whatever they wish, they can also self-identify their sexuality however they wish.

But it's not a matter of self-identifying as they wish - which implies a free choice. It's self-identifying what they are - i.e. not necessarily what other people think they are.
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eschaton

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #205 on: 21 Aug 2020, 17:23 »

I mean, if people can self-identify their gender whatever they wish, they can also self-identify their sexuality however they wish.

But it's not a matter of self-identifying as they wish - which implies a free choice. It's self-identifying what they are - i.e. not necessarily what other people think they are.

Of course, however, no one can judge who a person is except for that person themselves.   Therefore, you are acceding to the self-identification that they desire, rather than what you (or society) might impose upon them. 

I mean, I remember years back when my daughter (who is now 11) first heard about trans people.  She asked me how to tell if someone was male or female.  I paused, thought about it for a bit, and said you had to take their word for it. 

Though I'd say fundamentally speaking I just don't hold truck with the essentialist ideas of gender, either in terms of bodies or brains.  I mean, there used to be a lot of discussion of a "female brain in a male body" and vice versa, but it's kinda a problematic way to word things because it implies that brains have concrete genders, and leaves out genderqueer/agender people and the such.  Much like the "born this way" defense of gayness was conservative because it acted like something was wrong with being gay, and it wouldn't be acceptable if gayness was indeed a choice. 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether gender identity or sexuality is immutable or somewhat flexible.  Peoples professed identities should be accepted at face value. 
« Last Edit: 21 Aug 2020, 18:56 by eschaton »
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #206 on: 22 Aug 2020, 04:00 »

However, if Claire did not pass he would deal with transphobia and (wrongly assigned) homophobia as part of his everyday life.

Perhaps you might care to rephrase that? Referring to Claire as "him" is, er, well everyone says damnsillystupid things sometimes.

This one is enough to cause some people to remove the locks from the torch and pitchforks locker, so perhaps some swift retraction might be helpful. Be glad that it's still at the readying state, as here we all assume a lack of deliberate assholery when there's a slim possibility of it just being a brain fart.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #207 on: 22 Aug 2020, 05:22 »

The way I read it, they were referring to Marten, really. As in, "if Claire didn't pass, Marten would have to deal with..."
Really obvious from the preceding sentence, really.
« Last Edit: 22 Aug 2020, 05:35 by Cornelius »
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #208 on: 22 Aug 2020, 06:31 »

Sourdough is made of nothing but happiness, Jeph, you heathen.
Sourdough tastes like bread that has gone rancid to me.
Whoever bakes it for you may be doing something wrong then. The sourdough culture needs to be ... cultured. My wife has pretty much nailed it. It does become a bit too potent over time. I'm afraid I don't know exactly what she does to avoid that. Best consumed within a couple of days.

A couple decades ago when I still wanted to learn it I ruined many a good sourdough by adding too much flour into it. Unlike when baking cinnamon rolls or buns you need to let the dough be "sticky" when you start kneading. I never figured it out - I don't know how she manages it.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #209 on: 22 Aug 2020, 06:41 »

However, if Claire did not pass he would deal with transphobia and (wrongly assigned) homophobia as part of his everyday life.
Perhaps you might care to rephrase that? Referring to Claire as "him" is, ...
The way I read it, they were referring to Marten, really. As in, "if Claire didn't pass, Marten would have to deal with..."
Really obvious from the preceding sentence, really.
I figured that it was referring to Marten, but strictly speaking, pronouns refer to the latest thing mentioned that that pronoun could refer to: a gendered personal pronoun would refer to the latest-mentioned person of that gender; whether a gendered personal pronoun refers apply to the latest-mentioned person depends on that person's gender. Of course, associateing different gender as that person's gender might cause a reader to misconstrue that sentence. (This ability to misconstrue based on the reader's (mis-) understanding of someone's gender might be used to to covertly signal one's ideas about someone's gender to like-minded persons.) I try to avoid that confusion by using ``he'' for any gender.
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eschaton

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #210 on: 22 Aug 2020, 06:55 »

The way I read it, they were referring to Marten, really. As in, "if Claire didn't pass, Marten would have to deal with..."
Really obvious from the preceding sentence, really.

Indeed, the subject of the paragraph is Marten, not Claire - which is clear from the sentances before and after.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #211 on: 22 Aug 2020, 11:41 »

I try to avoid that confusion by using "he'' for any gender.

Whatever your intention, doing that deliberately will nowadays commonly be seen as offensive and misogynistic.  While circumlocutions can be clumsy, the habit of rewording sentences to avoid the issue when possible is not so hard to develop.  And the increasing use of "singular they" is often acceptable (and goes back to Chaucer and Shakespeare).  I suggest you reconsider your decision.

Quote
"He'' only came to connote the masculine gender after some persons tried to make persons of the feminine gender somehow inferior by introducing "she.''

That ignores the fact that gendered words are as old as recorded language itself. 

Quote
A similar history can be seen with the word "woman''---"man'' was always just short for "human'' (yes the moon-landing quote was faked) but "woman'' was introduced to try to dehumanize humans of the feminine gender.

"Man" and "Human" have different etymologies - they just happen to have ended up looking similar; they also somewhat swapped meanings!  "Man is from the Sanscrit word "manu" meaning "human" or "man"; whereas "human" is from the Latin "homo", meaning "man".

"Woman" is from the Old English "wifmann", the combination of "wif" meaning "woman" and "mann" meaning "man" - it thus originally denoted a wife.  It was not formed from man to form a demeaning alternative, but included the old word which already meant woman.  Of course, as this history is not apparent in the sounds of the modern words, it is important to use them in ways that prevent misunderstanding or which appear to make unjustified assumptions.
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Theta9

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #212 on: 22 Aug 2020, 13:22 »

``He'' only came to connote the masculine gender after some persons tried to make persons of the femmenine gender somehow inferior by introducing ``she.'' A similar history can be seen with the word ``woman''---``man'' was always just short for ``human'' (yes the moon-landing quote was faked) but ``woman'' was introduced to try to dehumanize humans of the femmenine gender. Since ages of using the dehumanizing terms in reference to humans of the femmenine gender, while their dehumanizing intent is kept covert, many have assumed that the primary meaning of the terms is to refer to the femmenine gender.
I find your assertion dubious. Citation needed.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #213 on: 22 Aug 2020, 15:46 »

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #214 on: 22 Aug 2020, 17:00 »

Renee is a really good friend. I know she’s still crushing on Elliot, but she’s just really good at helping her friends push their boundaries in really low key and safe ways.
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Tova

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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #215 on: 22 Aug 2020, 17:13 »

I googled.

Where did ‘she’ come from?

TLDR: There's no definitive answer.

If avoiding confusion truly is the goal, I'd suggest that the use of the pronoun 'they' has become far more common than the previous use of 'he' as a gender-neutral pronoun, and would therefore cause less confusion (not to mention upset). Regardless of etymology.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #216 on: 23 Aug 2020, 04:09 »

I googled.

Where did ‘she’ come from?

TLDR: There's no definitive answer.

If avoiding confusion truly is the goal, I'd suggest that the use of the pronoun 'they' has become far more common than the previous use of 'he' as a gender-neutral pronoun, and would therefore cause less confusion (not to mention upset). Regardless of etymology.

And I question using a word in a way it was last used many centuries ago. English has changed quite a bit in the meantime and there's no point in arbitrarily sticking to one specific way it once worked. By that logic, we might as well just all switch to reconstructed Proto-Indo-European and be done with it.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #217 on: 23 Aug 2020, 07:08 »

The way I read it, they were referring to Marten, really. As in, "if Claire didn't pass, Marten would have to deal with..."
Really obvious from the preceding sentence, really.

Indeed, the subject of the paragraph is Marten, not Claire - which is clear from the sentances before and after.

Ah. Brain Fart then. Whew! Too bad it was mine, but better that than any other alternative. My ego is so huge I can shrug off my own embarassing SNAFUs. Maybe an apology is also in order? Well, even if not, it can't  hurt and I'm  sorry for making such a mistake (says she, wiping egg of her face).
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Re: WCDT Strips 4331-4335 (18-22, August 2020)
« Reply #218 on: 23 Aug 2020, 20:39 »

One wonders what Renee's ANGRY bread tastes like?  :laugh:
If the world isn't ready for Chaos Loaf, it's probably not ready for Angry Renee Bread either.
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