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Poll

Further complications for Clinton and Elliot?

Clinton falls hard for May when he sees her in her new chassis.
- 3 (6.7%)
Brun professes her attraction to Clinton and/or Elliot, and announces intentions to persue one/both of them.
- 13 (28.9%)
Emily asks Clinton if he's still interested in dating her.
- 7 (15.6%)
Roko asks Clinton or Elliot out.
- 6 (13.3%)
Elliot asks Renee to go on a practice date with him.
- 3 (6.7%)
Padma comes back after a breakup/divorce and rebounds hard to Elliot.
- 3 (6.7%)
Sven is not a mooch.
- 10 (22.2%)

Total Members Voted: 45


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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)  (Read 3861 times)

oddtail

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #150 on: 29 Aug 2020, 17:26 »

Generally speaking most criminals can be categorized as selfish with no empathy and manipulative with no long term planning

When you have time to write a longer post, I'm gonna need a source for that claim. Because to me it's not as self-evident as I assume it is for you. What's more, I strongly disagree with this assertion.

EDIT: I'd also like a clarification of what you mean by "criminal". By default I assume it refers to a person that committed a crime serious enough to warrant punishment as per the law, and did it at least once. But maybe you mean a person who commits crimes repeatedly or habitually. If you refer to anyone who's ever committed a crime, we're entering uneasy territory, because I think one'd be hard-pressed to find all that many people who've *never* broken the law in a way that's punishable at least in theory. So I'm wondering what the threshold is for a person to qualify as a criminal.
« Last Edit: 29 Aug 2020, 17:33 by oddtail »
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #151 on: 29 Aug 2020, 17:47 »

While you are at it, another question to reflect on would be whether the characteristics you're listing are a cause of criminality or a result of spending time in the prison system, or whether they are all correlated but caused by an entirely separate factor e.g. upbringing or genetics (or some combination of these things).
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hedgie

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #152 on: 29 Aug 2020, 19:12 »

There's also the matter of money and privilege.  The rich seldom have to face any consequences, and when they do, it's usually a slap on the wrist.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #153 on: 29 Aug 2020, 20:46 »

What I like about May is that she’s been trying her best to be a good friend to Momo and Dale, and has really tried hard to be financially independent. What makes her prickly is her pride. She doesn’t want their help not just because she thinks she doesn’t deserve it but because it embarrasses her to be in a position where she needs this type of financial and material help.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #154 on: 29 Aug 2020, 21:07 »

I don't think that it's just pride.  Kick a puppy enough, and it'll even snap at innocents that try to help it.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #155 on: 29 Aug 2020, 21:12 »

We do know that May has documented problems with lack of impulse control.

As far as we know it was a first offense, so not proof by itself that she is depraved.

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #156 on: 30 Aug 2020, 01:28 »

Several people called it but I did like seeing May say she wants to look at their most reasonably priced and reliable new bodies. Very sensible of her. And also in character with the way she been (gradually) growing over the course of her time in the comic.

I was not expecting any of this from Beepatrice. She's normally so..."reasonable" feels like the wrong word. I guess "clean?" That's not quite what I'm going for, but you get my point.
Beeps does have a "clean" (for lack of a better word) image a lot of the time but in that first interview with Roko, Beeps was very curious after Roko let slip about her bread fetish. I've had the impression that Beeps has internalised some shame/embarrassment around their other job rather than being an innately prudish person. I think that framing it as "the strippers are for helping May feel better about this" possibly allows Beeps to bypass that internalised shame/embarrassment.

Also Beeps did suggest a bikini car wash fundraiser here: https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4310



By the way, has there been any official word on Beeps's pronouns? In the early comics featuring Beeps, Jeph's author comment used "they" to refer to Beeps and Roko also used "they" when talking about Beeps with Bubbles later (links below). But I'm pretty sure I've also seen an author comment and/or a character in comic use "she/her" when referring to Beeps at a later date.

https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3884
https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3892
« Last Edit: 30 Aug 2020, 01:35 by jesslc »
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chris73

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #157 on: 30 Aug 2020, 02:43 »

Generally speaking most criminals can be categorized as selfish with no empathy and manipulative with no long term planning

When you have time to write a longer post, I'm gonna need a source for that claim. Because to me it's not as self-evident as I assume it is for you. What's more, I strongly disagree with this assertion.

EDIT: I'd also like a clarification of what you mean by "criminal". By default I assume it refers to a person that committed a crime serious enough to warrant punishment as per the law, and did it at least once. But maybe you mean a person who commits crimes repeatedly or habitually. If you refer to anyone who's ever committed a crime, we're entering uneasy territory, because I think one'd be hard-pressed to find all that many people who've *never* broken the law in a way that's punishable at least in theory. So I'm wondering what the threshold is for a person to qualify as a criminal.

18 months working the floor in units from minimum to maximum including ISU including stints in both mens and womens prisons is where I get my assertions from. If you rape, assault, steal, rob, hurt etc etc someone then yeah thats to me a lack of empathy, you don't care about the other persons view on the matter, you don't care what you're doing to them, all you want in that moment is to satisfy you're own selfish desires (money, sex, power whatever) so thats why I categorise prisoners as mostly selfish and lacking empathy,  can you tell me why you disagree?

Its a tricky one, its sort of like pornography in that I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it but habitually is probably the best definition



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chris73

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #158 on: 30 Aug 2020, 03:32 »

Quote
Chris, would you care to reflect on why it is you think that so many prisoners end up this way?

I've touched on this before on page 5 and 6 of the criminal justice reform thread but same of the questions to be asked about this are:

Why are so many men getting women pregnant when contraception is widely available (and why do the men run away from their responsibilities), why are so many women taking drugs/smoking/drinking while pregnant when theres so much knowledge what damage can be done to the baby, why is prison the best option for so many prisoners, why arn't there enough hospital beds to mental illness/drug addiction, where are the meaningful jobs but if you were to sort out those issues then you'd find there'd be a lot less people in prison

If these questions could be answered

Quote
While you are at it, another question to reflect on would be whether the characteristics you're listing are a cause of criminality or a result of spending time in the prison system, or whether they are all correlated but caused by an entirely separate factor e.g. upbringing or genetics (or some combination of these things).

Well the thing is to be sent to prison (in NZ anyway) you have to have done something pretty serious so the judges will generally look at fines, home detention, community work before being sent away so arguably jail itself doesn't play much of a part at all (or at least the repercussions of their actions don't) however once they're inside then they can certainly make contacts and gangs are always looking for prospects (or victims)

I do think genetics plays a part in it, there've always been criminals and there'll always be criminals no matter what type of justice is around  so not wanting to sit on the fence but really its some, all or most likely a combination of the things you mentioned above

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #159 on: 30 Aug 2020, 04:41 »

Chris, would you care to reflect on why it is you think that so many prisoners end up this way?

I work with a bunch of ex-cons.

Most ended up in prison thanks to being dealt a bad hand and making bad decisions. The ones that are a royal pain in the ass are the ones who're hard-headed and seem like they always have to be breaking at least one rule (chewing gum, phone out on the floor, no helmet, no earplugs, etc). The rest of them are just trying to make do and reintegrate.

Some of them very much do end up much like May; bitter, cynical, and somewhat combative. There are those that are distrustful of any kindness, and those that are still very stuck on themselves. Many of them are very guarded as they've only been out for anywhere from a month to a few years. And I'd imagine that sort of thing takes awhile to get used to. Especially since some of them seem to see me as yet another guard (I'm a line inspector). I try not to let it bother me, but we do work with food, so I can't let the hairnets, beardnets, or gloves slide.

EDIT: (more to add)

Sometimes it's very frustrating. Especially when the floor supervisors won't back us (QA) up. But pretty much all I can do is keep to procedure, show mercy when necessary, and hope that nobody screws up bad enough to get the plant shut down.

I've been there almost long enough to have the requisite experience for other QA jobs, so I've dusted off my resumé as well. Here's hoping nothing falls through.
« Last Edit: 30 Aug 2020, 04:48 by Gyrre »
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chris73

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #160 on: 30 Aug 2020, 04:58 »


Quote

I work with a bunch of ex-cons.

Most ended up in prison thanks to being dealt a bad hand and making bad decisions. The ones that are a royal pain in the ass are the ones who're hard-headed and seem like they always have to be breaking at least one rule (chewing gum, phone out on the floor, no helmet, no earplugs, etc). The rest of them are just trying to make do and reintegrate.

Some of them very much do end up much like May; bitter, cynical, and somewhat combative. There are those that are distrustful of any kindness, and those that are still very stuck on themselves. Many of them are very guarded as they've only been out for anywhere from a month to a few years. And I'd imagine that sort of thing takes awhile to get used to. Especially since some of them seem to see me as yet another guard (I'm a line inspector). I try not to let it bother me, but we do work with food, so I can't let the hairnets, beardnets, or gloves slide.

EDIT: (more to add)

Sometimes it's very frustrating. Especially when the floor supervisors won't back us (QA) up. But pretty much all I can do is keep to procedure, show mercy when necessary, and hope that nobody screws up bad enough to get the plant shut down.

I've been there almost long enough to have the requisite experience for other QA jobs, so I've dusted off my resumé as well. Here's hoping nothing falls through.

I get that, if I had to sum up my frustrations in one sentence it would be something like this: no matter what we do the prisoner won't change until the prisoner wants to change

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Reaver

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #161 on: 30 Aug 2020, 07:07 »


Quote

I work with a bunch of ex-cons.

Most ended up in prison thanks to being dealt a bad hand and making bad decisions. The ones that are a royal pain in the ass are the ones who're hard-headed and seem like they always have to be breaking at least one rule (chewing gum, phone out on the floor, no helmet, no earplugs, etc). The rest of them are just trying to make do and reintegrate.

Some of them very much do end up much like May; bitter, cynical, and somewhat combative. There are those that are distrustful of any kindness, and those that are still very stuck on themselves. Many of them are very guarded as they've only been out for anywhere from a month to a few years. And I'd imagine that sort of thing takes awhile to get used to. Especially since some of them seem to see me as yet another guard (I'm a line inspector). I try not to let it bother me, but we do work with food, so I can't let the hairnets, beardnets, or gloves slide.

EDIT: (more to add)

Sometimes it's very frustrating. Especially when the floor supervisors won't back us (QA) up. But pretty much all I can do is keep to procedure, show mercy when necessary, and hope that nobody screws up bad enough to get the plant shut down.

I've been there almost long enough to have the requisite experience for other QA jobs, so I've dusted off my resumé as well. Here's hoping nothing falls through.

I get that, if I had to sum up my frustrations in one sentence it would be something like this: no matter what we do the prisoner won't change until the prisoner wants to change

That just sounds like people in general tbh.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #162 on: 30 Aug 2020, 08:01 »

I've been there almost long enough to have the requisite experience for other QA jobs, so I've dusted off my resumé as well. Here's hoping nothing falls through.
If you haven't already, consider a certification from the asq.  asq.org.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #163 on: 30 Aug 2020, 08:45 »

The QC Forums: come for he comics stay for the career counseling :)

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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #164 on: 30 Aug 2020, 09:57 »


18 months working the floor in units from minimum to maximum including ISU including stints in both mens and womens prisons is where I get my assertions from.
...

Oh.

Okay.

Uh, how do I say this - as someone who used to be in your EXACT SAME POSITION*, I was able to empathize with the people on the other side of the door. The problem was that the population I worked with had made bad decisions and didn't know what a "good" decision was. They also were (for the most part) teenagers.

Dealing with a kid who had stabbed his step-parent 47 times, then tried to tie-off when he was in juvie holding, then turned into a raging maniac when he was off his meds (including climbing the fence and razor wire at our max security building and running around on the roof), and - for the kicker - leaving a ####-smeared piece of paper that he slid into my locker... yeah, that was difficult. He made the choices, though, and I can live with it. (I also can live knowing he's behind bars for life, but that's another story.)

But blanket statements like what you're proposing? Uh, no.

And if I could be so bold as to suggest something? Get. The ####. OUT. Of corrections. Unless you are close to retirement or have a significant investiture in a pension system, GET OUT. That job field damages mind, body, and spirit. I should know.

* - And if it's not the exact same one, it's close enough for rock 'n roll.
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chris73

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #165 on: 30 Aug 2020, 16:27 »

Quote
And if I could be so bold as to suggest something? Get. The ####. OUT. Of corrections. Unless you are close to retirement or have a significant investiture in a pension system, GET OUT. That job field damages mind, body, and spirit. I should know.

What exactly are you disagreeing with and why?
Is it my belief they, mostly, lack empathy (do you think they have empathy for their victims) that you disagree with or my belief that a lot of them are quite selfish (you don't think its selfish when someone takes something of someones simply because they want it)

Before you answer have a look at some of the things I wrote on criminal justice reform thread: https://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,34220.250.html

Lastly you seem to be under the impression that I don't (or can't) empathize with the prisoners well in some cases you're right I can't (and won't) however there are certainly some that I do feel bad, that got a really bad roll of the dice, I don't forgive what they've done but I can understand why they're here however I don't think I could do this job if I didn't have empathy because, to me, its the empathy I have (especially for their victims) that makes me want to help them stay out of prison (its certainly not the money or the hours)

I assume that all COs have, to a lesser or greater degree, some form of PTSD. In order to combat this  I have asked my wife to tell me if she notices any changes in my behavior, I have made the decision to not drink as much as I used to, i (sometimes its a major chore) take regular exercise and when I can I try to get out into our great outdoors as much as possible (something about it does me better then sweating it out in a gym) and I also use our counselling service as and when I feel I need to

I won't be a CO forever (probabtion is where I'm planning on going) but for now CO is where I'm best placed
 
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #166 on: 30 Aug 2020, 22:22 »

Empathy ... depends on who and where. I asked my prison pen pal what the biggest surprise of her sentence was. She said it was the kindness of the other women there. (Minimum security camp, so carefully screened prisoners. I don't claim this is a general rule.)

She said the women incarcerated with her were just like any you would meet at the bank or the post office.

What are some examples of May showing empathy? Everything I can remember offhand has her being pretty self-centered.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #167 on: 30 Aug 2020, 22:28 »

Empathy ... depends on who and where. I asked my prison pen pal what the biggest surprise of her sentence was. She said it was the kindness of the other women there. (Minimum security camp, so carefully screened prisoners. I don't claim this is a general rule.)

She said the women incarcerated with her were just like any you would meet at the bank or the post office.

What are some examples of May showing empathy? Everything I can remember offhand has her being pretty self-centered.

May helped Dale and Marigold get together in the first place.

Dale accidentally told Marigold that he liked Emily more, and May helped them patch things up.

After the rice incident, May helped Momo clean up and checked in with Dale and Marigold to make sure everything was okay.

Honestly, Dale and Marigold probably wouldn't be together now if not for May.

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #168 on: 31 Aug 2020, 04:31 »

...
What are some examples of May showing empathy? Everything I can remember offhand has her being pretty self-centered.
...
Honestly, Dale and Marigold probably wouldn't be together now if not for May.
One could also argue, successfully I think, that May did that bit of matchmaking to assure herself a cheaper (Dale insisted she pay a share of the rent) place to live without having to be with utter strangers or subject herself to the rental market as a former felon; which would make that action less about empathy and more about self-centered-ness.  Karma being what it is, she engineered a situation where she has to be careful about entering her own domicile because of the possible activities that might be going on...  That, in and of itself, is amusing because May herself is deeply interested in the very same activities and doesn't know how to respond when she's not in the mix.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #169 on: 31 Aug 2020, 04:47 »

One could perhaps argue that, but successfully?

I don't think there's any evidence in the comic to support it, other than your judgement of her character.

Also, you're forgetting that she did her bit of matchmaking while she was still a hologram (there's your example, IICIH?). I don't think she was calculating that far ahead.

Just because she doesn't put her empathy on display, and is constantly on guard against any moments of vulnerability, does not mean she possesses no empathy whatsoever.

Dale saw a good person underneath all of that attitude way back in #2514, and I will never tire of reminding the forums of that.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #170 on: 31 Aug 2020, 09:14 »

...
What are some examples of May showing empathy? Everything I can remember offhand has her being pretty self-centered.
...
Honestly, Dale and Marigold probably wouldn't be together now if not for May.
One could also argue, successfully I think, that May did that bit of matchmaking to assure herself a cheaper (Dale insisted she pay a share of the rent) place to live without having to be with utter strangers or subject herself to the rental market as a former felon; which would make that action less about empathy and more about self-centered-ness.  Karma being what it is, she engineered a situation where she has to be careful about entering her own domicile because of the possible activities that might be going on...  That, in and of itself, is amusing because May herself is deeply interested in the very same activities and doesn't know how to respond when she's not in the mix.

It would have been easier for May to be simply apathetic about the situation rather than actively selfish. It seems riskier to try to carefully engineer the lives of two people and an AI by twisting their love livest to your own personal satisfaction than it does to mutter a few condolences and stay out of it. She had every opportunity to just ignore Dale in most of the situations I mentioned, but she didn't.
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #171 on: 31 Aug 2020, 21:12 »

By the way, has there been any official word on Beeps's pronouns? In the early comics featuring Beeps, Jeph's author comment used "they" to refer to Beeps and Roko also used "they" when talking about Beeps with Bubbles later (links below). But I'm pretty sure I've also seen an author comment and/or a character in comic use "she/her" when referring to Beeps at a later date.

There's a fair bit of evidence in the postscripts, but nothing in the comic itself as far as I could see.
4129: Can't Stay Mad Forever - "Beeps is getting a cute kitty on her back :3".
4209: Tragedy - "It was in the hiring packet that she never gave Roko".
4298: Up And At 'Em - "Her PJs have a butt-flap because she thinks it's cute".
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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #172 on: 01 Sep 2020, 04:33 »

Chris, I am a little concerned about how much spite you seem to have directed to a fictional AI.

I'm not. I'd say it's actually kind of normal.

QC is very much a character-driven strip. While not every character is fleshed out (hello, Melon!), many of them are fairly complex. Many (most?) people on this forum spend a lot of time talking about them and their actions as if they were real people. Disliking a particular character is just the flip side of the affection that forum regulars display toward characters like Bubbles.

Or to put it another way, if you're upset that someone intensely dislikes a character you kind of like, how is that any different? If you feel a character is "just a fictional AI," shouldn't you be largely indifferent?

Fictional characters, in QC or in books, push our buttons because they remind us of people we've met in real life. We are, in a way, talking about the real people whose reflections we see those fictional characters.

You misunderstand the crux of my post.

I am a fan of professional wrestling - and I go to shows. I'm pretty well-versed in distinguishing between fun hatred for a fictional villain, or contempt for a character whose ethics are written to be loathsome to you.

May, a character I have historically despised out of annoyance rather than anything else, has not been depicted as someone inherently corrupt or as a 'bad guy' character in any way whatsoever. The level of spite Chris was feeling towards her to me felt as out-of-place as if it had been directed at, say, Marten, or Bubbles.

Quote
Chris, I am a little concerned about how much spite you seem to have directed to a fictional AI.

May very much reminds me of a lot of the prisoners I deal with day to day.  The entitled ones, the ones who blame all their problems on everything but themselves, that actively resist all efforts to help, its extremely...tiring to deal with them, to try help them

As an example literacy and numeracy is a big problem in our prisons and we have many programs so you'd think it'd be a simple deal to get the guys on the courses to help themselves but no its like pulling teeth.
First there are the guys who say they want to do the courses but only say that so they can be transferred to the "softer" units and then say they won't go. Then there are the guys that're only attending the courses because they need it for their parole and then actively play up on the course thereby making it harder for the few who do actually want to learn (and then kick up a fuss and make complaints when they're removed from the course) there are also the ones who insist on one to one tutoring because its the only way they learn  and of course don't forget the ones who go just so they can transfer contraband to other units via the other prisoners

May has gotten a rough deal with her body breaking down for sure however her actions are what got her there in the first place (if I remember correctly) but since then shes been taken in by Dale, made friends with Momo, has Roko on her case (in a good way) and now had a substantial amount of money given to her for a new body and every step of the way shes made it a struggle for everyone and, IRL, thats just really tiring and frustrating

Personal anecdote time, a case prisoner of mine was a couple of weeks away from being released so his case manager and probation officer were trying to find a bed for this guy (he had no one and his family wanted nothing to do with him) so it probably was going to be with the Salvation Army however they also needed to find a bed for this guy so do you think this guy was appreciative of how many people (minimum of four different departments by this time) were trying to sort something out for him, of course not because he wanted to know right there and then and, in his words, "if you (meaning me) don't sort it out I'll just commit another crime and come back to prison"

You know what. Fair enough.

After you made this post the thread keeled off in a direction that was quite confrontational towards you and your viewpoints - and I have to say that we share almost none on this topic.

However I think it would be ridiculous of me as someone who has never even been in a prison to visit someone, never mind had a sentence or worked in one, to chide you for your own emotions and associations related to your job. I can talk better conditions for prisioners until I'm blue in the face, but I'm not about to sit here and tell someone who actually has to do it every day how to do their damn job.
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #173 on: 01 Sep 2020, 11:46 »

>I can talk better conditions for prisioners until I'm blue in the face

As I have done, but I fully acknowledge how damaging prisons are for the people who work in them. The better run they are (like FCI McLean under Dennis Luther) the better they are for both the prisoners and the people who supervise them.
« Last Edit: 02 Sep 2020, 15:53 by Is it cold in here? »
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chris73

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #174 on: 02 Sep 2020, 03:23 »

Quote

You know what. Fair enough.

After you made this post the thread keeled off in a direction that was quite confrontational towards you and your viewpoints - and I have to say that we share almost none on this topic.

However I think it would be ridiculous of me as someone who has never even been in a prison to visit someone, never mind had a sentence or worked in one, to chide you for your own emotions and associations related to your job. I can talk better conditions for prisoners until I'm blue in the face, but I'm not about to sit here and tell someone who actually has to do it every day how to do their damn job.

To be fair I bought some (most, all) of it on to myself due to how I put it on the threads. I do have healthy ways to express the frustrations I have but I did let some of those frustrations out on this board in a way that probably wasn't conducive to a robust discussion.

This is a good, positive storyline that helps to right a unfair wrong, in a system that isn't close to being adequate (let alone perfect) and I jumped in with some views which may be accurate but probably (understatement) wasn't necessary.

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Thrillho

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Re: WCDT Strips 4336-4340 (25th-29th, August 2020)
« Reply #175 on: 02 Sep 2020, 07:51 »

Damn, Chris. Thanks for responding.
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