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Author Topic: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)  (Read 11234 times)

bright

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #150 on: 30 Oct 2020, 00:23 »

And we have another comic.

And Clinton and Elliot are doomed to fail because neither one of them knows how to have a conversation about their goddamned feelings.

To be fair are they even something more than acquaintances at best? I've never really felt the need to talk through why a date went bad with anyone I ever went out with. And this wasn't even a real date. If I was in this situation I'd just let things slide. Go back to small talk and if Clinton ever tried for more than that, gently turn him down.

And Clinton and Elliot are doomed mostly because don't seem to have anything in common really, Clinton being more into Brun and is Clinton even into men? The last part is something you'd have an inkling about at his age (accepting this is another matter) and wouldn't need your sister to walk you through. Though hey he did seem to react positively there so I am giving him the benefit of the doubt on that one.
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SpanielBear

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #151 on: 30 Oct 2020, 01:14 »

Clinton is not a nice guy

Clinton is a Nice Guy.

He turns immediately toxic and abusive the moment he doesnít get his way. He is entitled, and an asshole.

If anyone ends up in a relationship with him, I will be genuinely worried about their safety and mental health going forward.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #152 on: 30 Oct 2020, 01:56 »

Yup, as I thought, Clinton actually does not realize that what he just said was hurtful.

Of course he should probably still apologize later.

Also I'm pretty sure Elliot was about to say "Just get out" before he changed it.
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neurocase

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #153 on: 30 Oct 2020, 03:57 »

Clinton is not a nice guy

Clinton is a Nice Guy.

He turns immediately toxic and abusive the moment he doesnít get his way. He is entitled, and an asshole.

If anyone ends up in a relationship with him, I will be genuinely worried about their safety and mental health going forward.

Honestly, I think that's a really extreme and unfair take. I don't think any of this is intentional, which doesn't change the fact that it's hurtful behavior, but it sure as hell isn't abusive or entitled. I think some people are filtering it through the lens of their own experiences with Far Worse people, and thinking it applies to Clinton. Who, frankly, is just an idiot, but hardly the type to be malicious. His 'meddling' here isn't even as bad as Claire's has been.

He's drunk, and socially inept. Neither of those are excuses for hurtful behavior, but they're factors to keep in mind, especially with how frequently alcohol consumption can result in lapses in judgement. He's certainly not a threat to anyone's safety, and canceling him over a flub like this, no matter how cringeworthy, is definitely excessive, in my view.
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cybersmurf

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #154 on: 30 Oct 2020, 04:13 »

I've been scrolling through this thread. Man, opinions go from "Well, he's a bit drunk" to "Oh, yeah, he's showing his asshole side I've KNOWN to be there since the beginning".

Clinton is an absolute dork. I wouldn't say socially inept, but highly inexperienced. He got into a situation, especially emotionally, he never thought himself to be, so he's WAAAAY out of his comfort zone here, even if he doesn't realise.
Fuelled by being in a different mindest, and some Liquid Courage, he asked Brun the question he already knew would come up eventually. Which is fine. He needed to do that for his own sake. Asking Brun whether she was attracted to someone else was pure curiosity, and spur of the moment. If Brun wouldn't have been comfortable with that question, she could have chosen to not answer it. But she did.
Clinton chugging a beer to process stuff definetly was not a good idea. Telling Elliot Brun was not interested in Clinton was maybe weird timing, but still OK (IMHO at least). That tells Elliot Clinton is in no rush for a decision, and they can take it slow.
Telling Elliot Brun is currently not interested in anyone, and therefore not interested in Elliot as well, was definetly a dick move. That is entirely on Clinton. I give him the benefit of doubt (of being malicious), but I think there will be consequences. And all y'all who say Clinton is an a-hole for doing this, let me tell you: he is not. Not for the first "offense" of that kind. You can bash him if he can't handle the consequences. But now it's too early for that.
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SpanielBear

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #155 on: 30 Oct 2020, 05:03 »

I've been scrolling through this thread. Man, opinions go from "Well, he's a bit drunk" to "Oh, yeah, he's showing his asshole side I've KNOWN to be there since the beginning".

Clinton is an absolute dork. I wouldn't say socially inept, but highly inexperienced. He got into a situation, especially emotionally, he never thought himself to be, so he's WAAAAY out of his comfort zone here, even if he doesn't realise.
Fuelled by being in a different mindest, and some Liquid Courage, he asked Brun the question he already knew would come up eventually. Which is fine. He needed to do that for his own sake. Asking Brun whether she was attracted to someone else was pure curiosity, and spur of the moment. If Brun wouldn't have been comfortable with that question, she could have chosen to not answer it. But she did.
Clinton chugging a beer to process stuff definetly was not a good idea. Telling Elliot Brun was not interested in Clinton was maybe weird timing, but still OK (IMHO at least). That tells Elliot Clinton is in no rush for a decision, and they can take it slow.
Telling Elliot Brun is currently not interested in anyone, and therefore not interested in Elliot as well, was definetly a dick move. That is entirely on Clinton. I give him the benefit of doubt (of being malicious), but I think there will be consequences. And all y'all who say Clinton is an a-hole for doing this, let me tell you: he is not. Not for the first "offense" of that kind. You can bash him if he can't handle the consequences. But now it's too early for that.

Spoilt white guys donít get second chances.

He is not worth defending.
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dawolf

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #156 on: 30 Oct 2020, 06:00 »

So much hate for someone over something which really doesn't matter.

(Paraphrased) "How DARE this asshole tell someone that someone else isn't attracted to them!"

Clinton might be a bit insensitive and socially dumb but if you discard friends every time they make any social faux pas, either you don't have many friends, or the ones you do have are achingly perfect all the time around you.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #157 on: 30 Oct 2020, 06:05 »

I think you're forgetting the key element. Elliot and Clinton have an uncertain situation regarding their mutual attraction. Mentioning other people and the attraction that may or may not be there is not just a faux pas, it's "13-year-olds know not to do that in their first awkward relationship" level of a misstep. "don't drool over other people when you're in [early stages of] a relationship" is, to me, on a similar level of social awareness to "if a person you meet extends a hand to you, they probably expect you to shake it". It's not rocket science, not even to a drunken person.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #158 on: 30 Oct 2020, 06:06 »

Spoilt white guys donít get second chances.

He is not worth defending.

I'm just going to flat out disagree with this.
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dawolf

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #159 on: 30 Oct 2020, 06:12 »

It's already been clearly established in comic that Clinton is socially awkward, doesn't have a history of girlfriends etc.

He's exactly a socially awkward 13 yr old where relationships are concerned.

And people make mistakes. We aren't robots.

I'm sure if most of those throwing stones examine their own consciences they will find examples of when they themselves have said things they wish they hadn't. Which doesn't make you an asshole. It makes you human.
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dawolf

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #160 on: 30 Oct 2020, 06:16 »


Spoilt white guys donít get second chances.

He is not worth defending.

Do you understand that this can be considered racist? Hint: it's in the bit where you make someone's race relevant to how you treat them.

This is exactly what I mean about how easy it is to make mistakes. We're all human. It happens.
« Last Edit: 30 Oct 2020, 06:29 by dawolf »
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BlueFatima

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #161 on: 30 Oct 2020, 06:20 »


Spoilt white guys donít get second chances.

He is not worth defending.

Last I checked, white guys didnít have a complete monopoly on being spoiled or terrible at dating. Met plenty who werenít either. I donít think being white impacts Clintonís second-chanceability.

But I digress.

There is no question here about whether or not he is being horrid. He totally is. Howeveróaside from his beginningsóClinton has been portrayed as a relatable (even likable) character with flaws when it comes to being attracted to other people. I would be surprised if he and Elliott hook up right now. They both have some growing up to do and they would both be better off with someone who has more experience (or a different personality), but it feels like this could be a major character development story for Clinton. He messed up, and heíll probably know (or learn) this as soon as he sobers up.
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MrNumbers

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #162 on: 30 Oct 2020, 06:36 »

Clinton's going to feel like absolute shit when what just happened is explained to him, and it's going to be because he feels like an asshole and not because he's going to be seen as an asshole.

You have to make mistakes to learn from them, and it just sucks that almost every mistake involves hurting other people when it comes to social and romantic stuff.
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cybersmurf

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #163 on: 30 Oct 2020, 07:00 »

Spoilt white guys donít get second chances.

He is not worth defending.

I agree that nobody likes spoilt brats. The rest of this post just makes me think you are one. But yeah, well, that's just like... my opinion, man.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.
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SpanielBear

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #164 on: 30 Oct 2020, 07:07 »

Spoilt white guys donít get second chances.

He is not worth defending.

I agree that nobody likes spoilt brats. The rest of this post just makes me think you are one. But yeah, well, that's just like... my opinion, man.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.

No, Iíd say you were bang on the money. I donít think I deserve second chances either. Iím definitely a spoilt white guy, so Iíll call that out when I see it.

You get one chance to be a decent human being. I wasted mine, Clinton has wasted his. There is no coming back from that. Other people might forgive you for their own mental health, but you should *never* forget or forgive yourself.
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neurocase

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #165 on: 30 Oct 2020, 07:09 »

Spoilt white guys donít get second chances.

He is not worth defending.

I agree that nobody likes spoilt brats. The rest of this post just makes me think you are one. But yeah, well, that's just like... my opinion, man.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.

No, Iíd say you were bang on the money. I donít think I deserve second chances either. Iím definitely a spoilt white guy, so Iíll call that out when I see it.

You get one chance to be a decent human being. I wasted mine, Clinton has wasted his. There is no coming back from that. Other people might forgive you for their own mental health, but you should *never* forget or forgive yourself.

I strongly disagree with the last part; forgiving yourself is an important component to personal growth.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #166 on: 30 Oct 2020, 07:10 »

No, Iíd say you were bang on the money. I donít think I deserve second chances either. Iím definitely a spoilt white guy, so Iíll call that out when I see it.

You get one chance to be a decent human being. I wasted mine, Clinton has wasted his. There is no coming back from that. Other people might forgive you for their own mental health, but you should *never* forget or forgive yourself.

So your game plan is to spend the rest of your life hating yourself and telling other people they should do the same?

That doesn't sound very healthy.
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sitnspin

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #167 on: 30 Oct 2020, 07:30 »

The problem with your reasoning here is that nothing about this situation has anything to do with Clinton being white or a dude. It's just about miscommunication and an inability to divine what another person is thinking or feeling. Nothing he did was terrible or atrocious, just a misreading of social cues. He received information he was relieved to learn and, either hampered by alcohol or just not knowing Elliot well enough yet, thought Elliot would feel the same way. People say the wrong thing unintentionally and sometimes other people's feelings are hurt as a result. This is not a moral failing on their part, just a natural result of being human and thus imperfect.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #168 on: 30 Oct 2020, 07:33 »

This has probably been said (and if so, my apologies, feel free to delete).

Has it ever occurred in canon that Clinton knows of Eliot's attraction to Brun? While his behavior is a bit dickish (telling Eliot that he essentially asked out Brun while he was on a pseudo date with Eliot), I don't think he knows Eliot would be upset by that knowledge either. I'm not even sure if Clinton realizes that this is supposed to be a hang out date with Eliot either (after all, Eliot's at WORK, and Clinton is the clueless sort of person to not think this as a date). I also disagree with the sentiment that Clinton is an asshole here- he is not intentionally trying to hurt or manipulate Eliot. Does this forgive his actions? Absolutely not (neither does him being drunk, as getting drunk is a conscious decision, so bad behavior while he is drunk is totally the his fault*). But, it does mean that Clinton is redeemable: this will be a learning moment for him in the long run. We've already seen this happen: he learned how to be appropriate around Hanners and some of the AIs, and he's had the realization acting that way is atrocious behavior.

*To clarify, I mean actions done BY the drunk person, not to the drunk person. Taking advantage of or assaulting a person who is drunk is wrong, even if the person is drunk. What I mean here is anything hurtful said, or actions (like fighting, trying to force oneself on someone, or other) done BY the drunkard are totally the responsibility of the drunkard.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #169 on: 30 Oct 2020, 08:44 »

I've gone from frustrated to confused.

In the course of three strips, Clinton went from courageous and kind to utterly and completely socially inept and clueless. Maybe that's him, like, fifteen hundred strips ago or something, but he's slowly changed over that time. He's brave about revealing his own feelings, he knows what to say to others, and he's pretty good at figuring stuff out--and then 4384 hit, and he suddenly completely lost the ability to discern even basic details about a social situation. Yes, he's drunk, but he'd only had two beers when he said that. He's not slurring his speech or really acting drunk at all. It's become clear that he wasn't being bitter--he genuinely thought that's what Elliot wanted to hear--but usually he's pretty good about figuring out what people want to hear. Hence my confusion.

Edit: He's slurring a little, but really not all that much.
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Thrillho

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #170 on: 30 Oct 2020, 08:50 »

To respond to the earlier discussion about racism, I don't think it's possible to be racist against a white person. But I think that is either a discussion for the 'is this racist' thread or another thread in its own right in Discuss, which I am willing to start if nobody else wants to.

As far as Clinton going from socially aware to wang-clown in three drinks or less... I buy it.

Clinton reminds me a lot of myself sometimes, at a younger age at least - and I was generally a nice guy, I was generally compassionate, but a lot of that came from shyness and anxiety and no desire to assert dominance. Drinking, even a few drinks, can remove the natural barriers of anxiety and worry and shyness and fill you with confidence, and if you are untutored in how to use something as tremendously powerful as 'feeling confident' then you can end up being like Clinton is here. Doesn't have to actually be drunk. Just the edges sanded off.

ihaveavoice

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #171 on: 30 Oct 2020, 10:01 »

Has it ever occurred in canon that Clinton knows of Eliot's attraction to Brun?

Yeah, they actually talk about the fact that both of them are attracted to Brun in these strips: https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3708, https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3709, and https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3710

Also, Clinton says to Elliot in 4384, "So, like, bummer, but now you got your answer." He was specifically telling Elliot that now he knows Brun isn't into him either.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #172 on: 30 Oct 2020, 10:05 »

Ouch. I hadn't picked up on that.  Although it doesn't adjust my view on how Clinton is behaving.

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #173 on: 30 Oct 2020, 10:40 »

I think the reason I donít post as much as I used to is my Patreon subscription.  As soon as I read the latest strip Wednesday night I knew this board would get toxic very quickly.  After reading through the last page my suspicions are confirmed.
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bright

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #174 on: 30 Oct 2020, 10:46 »

I think the reason I donít post as much as I used to is my Patreon subscription.  As soon as I read the latest strip Wednesday night I knew this board would get toxic very quickly.  After reading through the last page my suspicions are confirmed.

People disagreeing with each other isn't toxic, it's healthy. People should debate each other about the merits of each other's opinions. It leads to learning experiences. Just respect each other and everything's fine. Sometimes things turn a bit feisty, but people are emotional beings. Nothing wrong with that.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #175 on: 30 Oct 2020, 11:50 »

...
I'm expecting two possible outcomes right now:

1. Clinton has a drunken hook-up with an unexpected 'spoiler' character ...

Pictoria. Who is drunk off her butt because of a disappointment in her excessively complicated love life.

( the pity milkshake gal with the tattoos )
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #176 on: 30 Oct 2020, 13:01 »

I think the reason I donít post as much as I used to is my Patreon subscription.  As soon as I read the latest strip Wednesday night I knew this board would get toxic very quickly.  After reading through the last page my suspicions are confirmed.


I'm not picking up on the 'toxic' vibe? I see a lot of discussion since people all view Clinton's actions through their own filters, but apart from a couple of outliers, it has remained respectful.


Clinton reminds me a lot of myself sometimes, at a younger age at least - and I was generally a nice guy, I was generally compassionate, but a lot of that came from shyness and anxiety and no desire to assert dominance. Drinking, even a few drinks, can remove the natural barriers of anxiety and worry and shyness and fill you with confidence, and if you are untutored in how to use something as tremendously powerful as 'feeling confident' then you can end up being like Clinton is here. Doesn't have to actually be drunk. Just the edges sanded off.


Agreed, being drunk can have some... unexpected consequences. I have been very drunk exactly once in my life, and thinking back on what I said and did that night, I cringe. It was like I was a completely different person. I have never drunk that much again since (at least, not that much in such a short time period). Plus, the hangover the next day was brutal, I have no desire to experience that again. How other people willingly go through that on a regular basis is beyond me.
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g30n

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #177 on: 30 Oct 2020, 13:31 »

[sigh] It'll be sad if the first m/m relationship in QC is just an awkward fizzle.  Such potential, such disappointment.  [crosses fingers]
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #178 on: 30 Oct 2020, 13:37 »

I just feel like Clinton isnít acting like a nice person here. I donít think being drunk is an excuse for being a so self absorbed towards someone who has been nothing but nice to you.

And itís even worse because theyíre at Elliotís job so they really canít have the one-on-one focused convo they need.

This is honestly a horrible not-a-date.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #179 on: 30 Oct 2020, 15:43 »

[sigh] It'll be sad if the first m/m relationship in QC is just an awkward fizzle.  Such potential, such disappointment.  [crosses fingers]

It's not the first M/M relationship in the QC-verse, since we already saw Marten's dad get married to Maurice.


I highly doubt that this is the end for any romance between Elliot and Clinton. Jeph is very big on making his characters grow and evolve, so I can see a lot of talking and discussion happening with those two in the future.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #180 on: 30 Oct 2020, 16:30 »

[sigh] It'll be sad if the first m/m relationship in QC is just an awkward fizzle.  Such potential, such disappointment.  [crosses fingers]

It's not the first M/M relationship in the QC-verse, since we already saw Marten's dad get married to Maurice.


I highly doubt that this is the end for any romance between Elliot and Clinton. Jeph is very big on making his characters grow and evolve, so I can see a lot of talking and discussion happening with those two in the future.

I want to see where it goes, but I really hope they end up with other people. Thinking of them together now is so cringy. Seen too many RL situations lean this way that resulted in toxic (often mutually) relationships. It feels too much like an 80s or 90s flick where a female lead “fixes” the mean crazy and/or unhinged love interest...except with gay guys. I dig me m/m romance, but not with that worn out codependent romance trope.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #181 on: 30 Oct 2020, 16:32 »

Hi, I'm new!  :clairedoge:

I mean, not that new. I come on here periodically for clarification as to what's going on with the comic, so I guess I'm a un-lurked lurker. This time, it's because I didn't understand the apprehensiveness in Elliot's demeanor when Clinton said what he did about Brun and Elliot.  I don't consider myself to be socially awkward either, though I make mistakes like any other person. I think I get it now, but I still don't think I'm getting the whole picture.

At first I thought the fact that Clinton discussed this with Brun while on a (not) date with Elliot was the problem (I know it's what would've stopped me from bringing it up) but it didn't seem like Elliot was phased by that part of it. Now I think the main issue was Clinton's obtuseness with discussing the lack of attraction.  Follow that up with Clinton saying "at least you know!" when the whole issue with the Elliot/Clinton ship is that Elliot doesn't know how Clinton feels.  Though to be fair, Clinton doesn't know how Clinton feels yet. Clinton's blasť attitude with Elliot about knowing where you stand with someone is clearly a mistake. I just don't know how much of one.

This why I broke my lurking. Everyone on here seems to be of the opinion that Clinton has hurt Elliot. I don't think I'm of that opinion. All the thoughts on here have helped me understand, but I don't think I've come to the same conclusions. Elliot's face in the last panel of 4384 may be hurt, as in "How could you say this knowing that I don't know how YOU feel about me?" But I also see it possibly being his personal angst, as in "Craaaap, am I going to have to ask him flat out if he thinks I'm attractive?". I'd love to hear what y'all think of this. And if you think I'm missing something about how Elliot's hurt, I'd love a better explanation. Preferably one that comes in the form of what Elliot should say to Clinton to make him understand how he hurt him.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #182 on: 30 Oct 2020, 17:19 »

Been around a bit. Not here (I mostly lurk too), but in general. I am middle aged and went through crazy times with my wit and health in tact after seeing quite a few younger and older end up worse off.

Drank with a few people. Went to a few crazy parties and bars and festivals so I see people get many ways shitfaced. My experience is when someone starts being so rude/thoughtless as Clinton was but they are not puking drunk and are okay enough to walk home, it is a sign they took off their mask and it is good to back away—be it a future relationship prospect or even a close friendship. Anytime I (or a friend) didn’t back away after that kind of situation, it has ended in a sea of regret.

Clinton knows Elliot has feelings for him. He specifically came there to feel it out (edit - and I remember him telling Elliot that those were his intentions). His actions (both prior and post drinks) have been pretty crass. If Elliott still is hot for Clinton after this, and Elliott was a real person, I’d have a feeling he probably has some of his own demons to wrestle with—low self esteem to be the tip of the iceberg. I may be wrong, but Elliot’s body language and facial expressions (especially in the last two panels) give me the vibe he is disappointed and done with Clinton as a romance prospect. He looks tense and yet assertive. 

Hi, I'm new!  :clairedoge:

I mean, not that new. I come on here periodically for clarification as to what's going on with the comic, so I guess I'm a un-lurked lurker. This time, it's because I didn't understand the apprehensiveness in Elliot's demeanor when Clinton said what he did about Brun and Elliot.  I don't consider myself to be socially awkward either, though I make mistakes like any other person. I think I get it now, but I still don't think I'm getting the whole picture.

At first I thought the fact that Clinton discussed this with Brun while on a (not) date with Elliot was the problem (I know it's what would've stopped me from bringing it up) but it didn't seem like Elliot was phased by that part of it. Now I think the main issue was Clinton's obtuseness with discussing the lack of attraction.  Follow that up with Clinton saying "at least you know!" when the whole issue with the Elliot/Clinton ship is that Elliot doesn't know how Clinton feels.  Though to be fair, Clinton doesn't know how Clinton feels yet. Clinton's blasť attitude with Elliot about knowing where you stand with someone is clearly a mistake. I just don't know how much of one.

This why I broke my lurking. Everyone on here seems to be of the opinion that Clinton has hurt Elliot. I don't think I'm of that opinion. All the thoughts on here have helped me understand, but I don't think I've come to the same conclusions. Elliot's face in the last panel of 4384 may be hurt, as in "How could you say this knowing that I don't know how YOU feel about me?" But I also see it possibly being his personal angst, as in "Craaaap, am I going to have to ask him flat out if he thinks I'm attractive?". I'd love to hear what y'all think of this. And if you think I'm missing something about how Elliot's hurt, I'd love a better explanation. Preferably one that comes in the form of what Elliot should say to Clinton to make him understand how he hurt him.
« Last Edit: 30 Oct 2020, 17:30 by BlueFatima »
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #183 on: 30 Oct 2020, 17:37 »

His actions (both prior and post drinks) have been pretty crass.

How were his actions prior to drinking crass? And I really wanted to figure out why what he said after was crass. If it's just the one thing I mentioned, it's self absorbed but not completely awful. Just socially awkward in the standard Clinton way.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #184 on: 30 Oct 2020, 18:40 »

His actions (both prior and post drinks) have been pretty crass.

How were his actions prior to drinking crass? And I really wanted to figure out why what he said after was crass. If it's just the one thing I mentioned, it's self absorbed but not completely awful. Just socially awkward in the standard Clinton way.

I'm mostly with you on this, but the idea appears to be that Clinton made two big mistakes.

The first one is that he asked Brun whether she's attracted to him while he's technically on a date with Elliot. Some people are interpreting that as him treating Elliot like a second choice, but even without that interpretation, I guess it goes against social norms to inquire about romantic interest in a third party while you're supposed to be spending time with your date, preferably in a romantic manner. Basically it's seen as neglectful at best and outright dismissive at worst. Oh, and telling Elliot about it alerts Elliot to the fact that Clinton has done this, which could be seen as him not caring how Elliot feels about the entire thing.

The second mistake is that he told Elliot that Brun told him that she doesn't think she has any attraction towards any guy right now, which would include Elliot. Who also has a crush on Brun. Dropping that kind of thing on a guy without warning or prior knowledge whether they'll appreciate you telling them is kind of... well, I could imagine close friends doing that to each other without issue but Clinton and Elliot don't know each other that well yet so that can easily be interpreted as Clinton once again blithely ignoring Elliot's feelings.

EDIT: But yeah I'm basically on the same page that Clinton is committing social faux pas left and right but I can't really find myself in people saying this reveals Clinton to be a horrible or toxic person. Quite frankly I'm pretty certain I have committed similar social blunders in the past and will continue to do so in the future. If that makes people see me as a bad person then... that's unfortunate.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #185 on: 30 Oct 2020, 19:38 »

I've got to say that I don't recognize the comic you all seem to be reading. My first and biggest question through this entire week of discussion is, "what date are you talking about?"

They're not on a date. It's not even a sort-of-date. They are friends who are hanging out while one of them works. Last time they spoke to each other about their feelings (middle of August over an errant pork burrito), Clinton left it at "I need to think. Just... gimme some time and I'll have an honest answer for you." He didn't say "I'll have an answer for you the next time we talk." or "We can't continue to be friends while I redefine my relationship with my sexuality." Just "I need time." The next thing they said to each other was Clinton asking Elliot if he wanted to get a beer after work. He didn't text and say "Hey, I want to talk about our relationship." or even "He, we should talk." It was just "Hey, wanna grab a beer?" like friends would do. And talking about your feelings and having a Kissing Jessica Stein moment at work is just a terrible idea. And that was Elliot's very bad idea. Nothing about tonight implies that Elliot is going to get his answer and Clinton has done nothing to suggest otherwise.

And asking Brun if she's attracted to him? Well, that IS a problem, but not for any reason having to do with Elliot. It's a problem because she's at work. Hitting on someone while they're at work can put them in a really bad position. If they feel uncomfortable or threatened, they can't leave. And they're generally being paid to be nice to you so they can't speak frankly about their feelings. He shouldn't have put her on the spot while at work. But is he snubbing Elliot? No. Absolutely not. Because he and Elliot aren't dating. And even if they were, they haven't discussed exclusivity. I don't delete my dating profiles the moment I get a match. I have no problem with scheduling a date with one person on Friday and another on Saturday. And if Friday doesn't work out, Saturday isn't my "second choice". Otherwise, everyone I have asked out since taking Hanna Johnston to see Cast Away back in high school was a runner up. And even if we did apply that standard, Elliot told Rene that he was going to ask out whoever he saw next. Clinton happened to be the next person he saw. It could have just as easily been Brun. If Elliot deserves to be more than a "second choice", doesn't Clinton deserve to be more than a "coin toss". Throw Elliot into the volcano, too. Relationships are messy. Especially when they aren't relationships yet.

So Clinton, who is already friends with Elliot, invited Elliot to grab a beer. He wants to work out how he feels before moving forward. He bumped into Brun who he already definitely knows he's attracted to. He decided to settle the issue of whether or not either he or Elliot had a chance to pursue a relationship with her. That way he doesn't have that lingering in his mind while he works out his feelings for Elliot. He then returned upstairs and discussed their mutual attraction to Brun which was already a topic of conversation between them several times in the past. He's clearly hanging out with Elliot as a friend and seeing if anything develops; exactly like he said he wanted to.

Elliot, however, is anxious for some emotional resolution. He wants to know where he stands with Clinton. He's hurt because Clinton is treating him exactly the way he always does. The only thing Clinton seems to have done to hurt Elliot was not giving him his resolution yet. His big crime was not managing Elliot's expectations and feelings for him. Elliot is a grown ass man and Clinton doesn't owe him that.

I'm sorry. I just can't be mad at him for any of this.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #186 on: 31 Oct 2020, 00:26 »

The disagreement isn't toxic---yet---but some opinions here are pernicious. Hell, maybe some my opinions are:
People should debate each other about the merits of each other's opinions. It leads to learning experiences.

Other people might forgive you for their own mental health, but you should *never* forget or forgive yourself.
forgiving yourself is an important component to personal growth.
Not forgiving myself---certainly not forgetting---is one of the ways I avoid repeating past mistakes. i also don't forgive others---it's enough to simply not cling to some harm they caused, after everything's settled---but I do sometimes forget; rather, I don't recall some things often enough to have them ready in my mind each time I'm considering the transgressor, but if I ever try something serious with them, I'm sure to go over all those things, even the little things. Perhaps if you have a tendency to focus too much on little problems, or to think of little problems as big problems, then it might be better for you to forget about it or make it out like it has no effect, which is dishonest, but towards truth.
I also disagree with the sentiment that Clinton is an asshole here- he is not intentionally trying to hurt or manipulate Eliot.
I think this is the subtle distinction between asshole and asshat: An asshole is intentionally. An asshat is negligently.
and if you are untutored in how to use something as tremendously powerful as 'feeling confident' then you can end up being like Clinton is here. Doesn't have to actually be drunk. Just the edges sanded off.
That's actually one reason that I don't really understand the ``liquid-confidence''-type epithets for alcohol. When drunk, I'm less confident, more reluctant to act. Maybe I'm too aware of it's potential disinhibitivity (ow, my ``i''s)
It's a problem because she's at work. Hitting on someone while they're at work can put them in a really bad position. If they feel uncomfortable or threatened, they can't leave. And they're generally being paid to be nice to you so they can't speak frankly about their feelings. He shouldn't have put her on the spot while at work.
I doubt Brun'd ever be insincere, and not all employers care about insincere pleasantries. Coffee of Doom, for example, don't.
It'll be sad if the first m/m relationship in QC is just an awkward fizzle.  Such potential, such disappointment.
I know you might be emotionally invested in this one, but if it doesn't work out, I'm sure there'll be an even better one later on.
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Case

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #187 on: 31 Oct 2020, 01:45 »

Unrelated - is it just me or has the site & these forums been down a lot more often than usual recently


Down, how?

Down as in Cloudflare telling you its connection to the QC server is fubared.

And yes, they have.

Edit: Could be a regional thing - the message was from Cloudflare Frankfurt, which is co-located with the DE-CIX hub that connects much of continental Europe & beyond with the US. I don't recall whether DE-CIX is downstream from the respective transatlantic hub in the UK, or whether the two have separate transatlantic connections - and Iirc, the Europeans on the mod-team are in the UK & Ireland, so depending on the location of the problem, they might not even have noticed. All of the above seriously under-informed speculation, mind you.
« Last Edit: 31 Oct 2020, 02:11 by Case »
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Dandi Andi

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #188 on: 31 Oct 2020, 03:56 »

This is absolutely not the thread to discuss racism or whether or not white people suffer by it. It has nothing to do with the content of this week's Questionable Content.

Would a moderator PLEASE move this to discuss.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #189 on: 31 Oct 2020, 05:05 »

Unrelated - is it just me or has the site & these forums been down a lot more often than usual recently


Down, how?

Down as in Cloudflare telling you its connection to the QC server is fubared.

And yes, they have.

Edit: Could be a regional thing - the message was from Cloudflare Frankfurt, which is co-located with the DE-CIX hub that connects much of continental Europe & beyond with the US. I don't recall whether DE-CIX is downstream from the respective transatlantic hub in the UK, or whether the two have separate transatlantic connections - and Iirc, the Europeans on the mod-team are in the UK & Ireland, so depending on the location of the problem, they might not even have noticed. All of the above seriously under-informed speculation, mind you.
I've been seeing the same thing in the U.S., so either it's multiple locations, or more likely, it's not regional.
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Case

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #190 on: 31 Oct 2020, 05:23 »

<snip>
I've been seeing the same thing in the U.S., so either it's multiple locations, or more likely, it's not regional.

I'll readily admit the 'regional thing hypothesis' was a remote possibility to begin with (not that I know shit about stuff, but I guess it would imply a major problem between some of the largest hubs on the planet)  but I felt that precision about what I'd actually seen (which was Cloudflare Frankfurt telling me it had trouble with the QC server; not me getting a 404 or smth) was important to avoid sending Paul on a wild goose chase.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #191 on: 31 Oct 2020, 05:26 »

Yeah, I had the same thing, but it said Cloudflare Chicago or something like that.
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MrNumbers

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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #192 on: 31 Oct 2020, 05:43 »

More on topic, I just want to say Dandi Andi is right and brave to say it.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #193 on: 31 Oct 2020, 08:05 »

More on topic, I just want to say Dandi Andi is right and brave to say it.

I find this to be invariably true every time they post.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #194 on: 31 Oct 2020, 08:11 »

Sufi proverb:

The fool neither forgives nor forgets.
The half-enlightened forgive and forget.
The Sufi forgives but does not forget.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #195 on: 31 Oct 2020, 08:22 »

I am not even remotely Sufi. This bitch holds a grudge like a vise.

But seriously, whether or not I forgive is wholly dependent on the specific individual and the specific offense. In this instance, nothing about this conversation would have even offended me at all and I am legit baffled by the responses on here.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #196 on: 31 Oct 2020, 13:51 »

Hereís why I think Clinton was being rude:

1. He asked Brun while sheís at her work about whether she found him attractive. Because sheís Brun she didnít find that rude, but IMO itís still hella sketch to ask someone at their job something like that. Itís entitled especially after she indicated she needed to get back to work.

2. Heís treating this exploratory outting as a checkbox with steps to speed through, and resolving Brun is just a step to get through, and is less about Brun or Elliot than about Clinton crossing his Ts and dotting his Is.

 3. He immediately divulges what should be a personal convo between him and Brun or Brun in Elliot in public to Elliot at Elliots job, which means Elliot canít easily process the info and canít easily get away from Clinton. Itís not only gossipy, it doesnít show any awareness of how awkward it might be to have full on convos about your personal life as an lgbtq person at your job.

4. Heís making himself a problem at Elliotís job by being the kind of drunk Elliot has to get to stop drinking and encourage to go home.
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #197 on: 31 Oct 2020, 18:16 »

NOT going to get into what Clinton did/didn't do, or what was wrong/right about his behaviour.

I'm just going to say this:
Clinton shouldn't drink.
I mean, at all.
I mean teetotal.
Put bluntly, it doesn't suit him and he can't handle it.

He is obviously a lightweight physically - so that dictates that he should drink less - but he also seems to suffer from the effects of alcohol more profoundly. This is a real thing too - I've known people of roughly similar build who are wildly different in their capacity to tolerate the effects. Some can drink steadily and simply mellow out, while others turn out to be "two pot screamers" (dunno if that's just an Australian term) who become rowdy after only a couple of beers (as the name implies).

Clinton without beer: easy to talk to, though a bit AI-obsessed (better than he was!); protective of his sibling; a good friend in a pinch (e.g., the fire and its after-effects); somewhat socially awkward (more socially inexperienced, really - a bit oblivious to the social niceties, but learning.)

Clinton under influence of beer: See last two strips!!  :-P Totally, blindly oblivious to the effects of his speech, but happily burbling on because of that obliviousness - all brought on by drinking.

For God's sake - if his reckoning was right, and he only had three beers - then the whole "Gotta pee gotta pee gotta pee" situation was brought on by one, single, solitary drink! No way should he drink in any steady or continuous manner - maybe the occasional toast or single celebratory drink, but that's all.

* BTW, Clinton shouldn't take his sister's advice without a grain of salt either - her relationship advice is (apparently) largely based on starry-eyed shipping in a universe of romantic fanfic  :roll:  I suspect Claire's social skills aren't really much more advanced than Clinton's own...
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #198 on: 31 Oct 2020, 19:30 »

"Forgiveness means letting go of the hope for a better past".
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Re: WCDT strips 4381-4385 (Oct 26th to Oct 30th 2020)
« Reply #199 on: 31 Oct 2020, 20:18 »

"Forgiveness means letting go of the hope for a better past".
That's kind of the idea behind "forgive but don't forget."
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