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The morning after discussion and hangover

Clinton blows his chances with Roko on his way home

Checking in with Roko

Faye and Yay become arch frienemies

May gets her comeuppance and brought back to Earth

Checking in with Winslow and the support group

Checking in with Hanners or the rest of the original cast

Brun has an important self realization; she too very much likes Hercules the cat.

Clinton wakes up on Roko's couch

Clinton, drink more water.

other

[Gyrre]

'Sven is not a mooch' seems to have been supplanted with 'Clinton, drink some water' as a replacement for the long running 'spathe ham' this week.

EDIT: ANY POLL PREDICTIONS THAT COME TO PASS ARE PURELY COINCIDENTAL. DO NOT BE ALARMED.
I'm not trying to spoil anything for anyone. I've consumed a ton of media and have often come up with ideas on my own that I see some time down thevroad get played out. I'm used to it.

[Tova]

I chose the funny option, as is traditional.

[Gyrre]

I chose the funny option, as is traditional.

Yeah, I made this after only 4 hours of sleep (had to go to the bathroom). So there's only two joke options.

I did remember to give everyone two votes this time, though.

EDIT: *derp* Just read the poll options before voting. I decided to make the Brun one a joke too and forgot to replace the parentheses.

[Reaver]

I'm sad we didn't get to see some sorta halloween-y slanted plot...I'da loved to see an e-claire....

[Gyrre]

I'm sad we didn't get to see some sorta halloween-y slanted plot...I'da loved to see an e-claire....

Hmmmmm........Yay having an awkward date with 'Dolphin Jack' (forgot character's name) could count as horror or suspense.

[DaiJB]

What, no "Other" option?? I always vote Other!   

But, yeah, "Clinton, drink more water" was, to me, a given.
Plus the next day discussion, recriminations and regrets... 

[Gyrre]

What, no "Other" option?? I always vote Other!   

But, yeah, "Clinton, drink more water" was, to me, a given.
Plus the next day discussion, recriminations and regrets... 

My bad. Hang on.

[Farideh]

Hmmmmm........Yay having an awkward date with 'Dolphin Jack' (forgot character's name) could count as horror or suspense.

Barry.

[Zebediah]

Comic's up. It's complicated.

[Farideh]

Poor Elliot. I feel for him.

[shanejayell]

Poor Elliot.

I wouldn't mind seeing the support group dealing with the new May. *lol*

[sitnspin]

You know what would make things less complicated? Clear and honest communication.

[Farideh]

Hopefully they'll get around to that.

[ANeM]

I'm sad that Clinton seems to have reverted to his earlier behavior where he is completely oblivious to peoples boundaries or feelings and ends up hurting people. The fact he actually managed to make some friends has only managed to increase the potential fallout.

[sitnspin]

No one is a telepath. None of can know about boundaries and feelings we aren't made aware of. Blaming Clinton for not knowing how Elliot is feeling when Elliot is going out of his way to not talk about his feelings is more than a little unfair. This is why clear and honest communication is important. If you want people to respect your feelings and boundaries, you have to tell them what they are.

[ANeM]

I don't expect him to be a telepath. This is pretty basic etiquette. Don't get hammered on a first date. Don't talk about having a crush on someone else during a first date. Doing both at the same time is a big Nope. His foot was lodged pretty firmly in his mouth even before divulged Brun's feelings about Elliot.

It wasn't really fair for him to unload all that baggage on to Elliot out of the blue, especially when he said he'd wanted to spend the time working out his feelings regarding Elliot. He instead decided to spend the evening working out his feelings for Brun.

[sitnspin]

It's not a date. They made that clear before hand. It's just hanging out while Elliot is at work.  He didn't "spend the evening", he talked with Brun for a few minutes on his way to the commode. He didn't "unload", he relayed what he considered to be useful and helpful information. That Elliot was upset by said information is unfortunate, and if Clinton was/is made aware of it, apologies should be made, but as it stands unless Elliot makes his feelings known, Clinton has no way of knowing.

[Dandi Andi]

I am very firmly with Sitnspin here. Like I said before, it's not a date. At no point did Clinton say to Elliot, "Yes, I think I am romantically attracted to you and I would like to go on a date." He didn't say "Let's spend some time together working out my feelings for you." He said "Let's grab a beer." You know, that thing friends do sometimes. Let's hang out in a context that we have hung out in before and will likely do again because we're friends and this is normal. Clinton is acting exactly as if Elliot is his friend, which is what he is. None of this would have been any sort of problem at all if we weren't aware of Elliot's attraction to him. And it still isn't a problem. Sure, we now know that Elliot is feeling hurt. But we have a narrator's perspective. Clinton doesn't. And Clinton isn't responsible for Elliot's feelings just because he knows Elliot thinks he's cute, anyway.

Here's a life lesson that changed my life for the better. You can be attracted to your friends. That's OK. Even if they aren't attracted to you. I have a friend who if she ever said "Hey! Wanna watch 90's revival cartoons and make out?" I would jump on that chance immediately. But she won't because she isn't attracted to me. And that's fine. I don't expect her to pretend not to be attracted to other people. I don't expect her to pretend not to have a sex life that doesn't include me. I don't insist that it is "basic etiquette" to not flirt with the cute server when we go out. Do I feel a pang of jealousy sometimes? Yes. Of course I do. But that's MY issue. Not hers. My feelings are my own responsibility because I'm an adult. And you know what I don't do? Lie to her face and tell her I'm not feeling what I'm feeling and then blame her for believing me.

And this may be Clinton's answer for himself. Maybe he didn't behave like he was on a date because this didn't feel like a date to him. Maybe it didn't feel like a date because he's not actually attracted to Elliot and nothing's gonna come out of this.

Or maybe he thought they could hang out with Elliot at work as friends and see how that felt. And then he could have a few beers and have a reason to walk to his mom's place afterword instead of going home. And maybe Elliot could walk him there. Maybe he could hang around for an hour or two and he could see how it felt to hang out with Elliot in a more intimate setting. Maybe hanging out in a bar while Elliot is working won't feel like anything special, but having a few hours alone will. And if he actually planned that? Well that sure as hell wouldn't be the worst idea he's ever had. And given how quickly he invited Elliot over to his mom's the moment things started going pear shaped, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he had.

[Gnabberwocky]

The greatest flaw among my friend group is the lack of the ability to apologize properly. It turns into a game of "I didn't mean to" and "It was someone else's fault" and "What I did wasn't all that bad and here's why." This leads to more fights than any other quality in any other friend group I've ever had.

Clinton said something that hurt Elliot. Elliot communicated badly in response and clouded their dynamic. Clinton and Elliot need to apologize to each other next time they meet or I'll lose considerable respect for both of them.

[N.N. Marf]

It's not a date, but it's more than just hanging out: Clinton knows he's maybe attracted to Elliot, so would want to explore that, and Elliot's been attracted to Clinton, and is waiting on his answer. They're both eager to know each other better, on a more intimate level. This makes their hasty beers-afterat-work idea even worse. This is where the insincere-peasantry and captive-audience might apply.
I wonder if Elliot would've been more willing to talk about his feelings had he had his answer.

The greatest flaw among my friend group is the lack of the ability to apologize properly. It turns into a game of "I didn't mean to" and "It was someone else's fault" and "What I did wasn't all that bad and here's why." This leads to more fights than any other quality in any other friend group I've ever had.

Most my friends don't like apologizing, so we've agreed to acknowledge the error---at least in one's mind, but an ``oops'' aloud is nice---and work towards righting the situation and preventing similar future. There's something defensive about ``sorry'' or apology.

Hannelore becoming too Chatham, dealing with that, would be interesting.

[BenRG]

New comic up and...

I do think that Brun is going to be earning her headache this week. She's a sensible person and one not entirely at ease with the concept of self-deceit and emotional reactions that about which people are not firmly aware. Given that fact, she's going to have a hard time understanding the events of tonight, which have been entirely the result of feelings, desires and hopes that are not always being consciously acknowledged or that the person feels comfortable with.

If it makes you feel better, Brun, I don't think that Elliot is entirely that close to fully 'getting' what's going on himself!

[bright]

Not saying that communication isn't a good thing, but sometimes you really aren't in the mood to do so. And sometimes telling people how you really feel at that moment in time, is definitely a bad thing.

It's no use explaining your feelings to someone who's clearly drunk and being irrational. It's also no use for Elliot to tell Brun that Clinton was being a Jerk, because badmouthing someone's friend is not a nice thing to do. And Elliot is a kind person. And I'm pretty sure now isn't the time to discuss his feelings about Elliot and Brun to Brun. It's just complicated as he said. Also during all this he is still working so now is not the time because of that as well.

I have to say in general I think that Jeph does a great job with how his characters react to situations. Sometimes people do shitty stuff, sometimes you just don't want to deal with stuff. I've been there and yeah.
Clinton isn't a bad person, he just has bad moments. Nobody is perfect. Trust me if you insist on communicating your feelings all the time, I'm pretty sure there are people out there who find you insufferable.

In short. Communication is good, but has to be well timed and well considered. Don't constantly unload your feelings on everyone on the spot because you're just making everything about you. You're basically doing what Clinton did. A whole heck of a lot of feelings got communicated there and you all think he's an ass for it.

I'd be quite happy if these two didn't end up together, they have nothing in common and it saves me from being annoyed at previously 'straight' characters being turned gay. Too much of a being gay is a choice vibe.

[N.N. Marf]

I'd be quite happy if these two didn't end up together, they have nothing in common and it saves me from being annoyed at previously 'straight' characters being turned gay. Too much of a being gay is a choice vibe.

Presumed straight, maybe. Plenty a person simply never considered he might be attracted to a person of a certain gender.
And what's wrong with it being a choice? I can make myself attracted to someone---anyone---and I gladly did it more than once. You wanna say I shouldn't exercise that choice? My choice to make myself attracted to someone e.g. if I think there might be a benefit, e.g. strengthening what already is a close friendship, with a person who I learn is carnally interested in me.. Not exactly sure how, but if I put the intention to be attracted to someone, it happens.

[Annemoon]

To be honest, I think there is a whole "more people are bi/more romantically flexible then we (or they!) even know" going on.
And the reason we don't see that is how culturally biased we are towards hetero normative roles. In a very gay/straight/bi/pan/etc accepting friend group with a numerous sample of both you actually often see more people coming out as, or finding out that they are gay/bi etc. Like, I had a few friends (male and female) that sort of admitted to themselves and others that they were bi while presumed straight before.
And even a guy who always thought he was gay and then got a crush on a lady...

Turns out that if you release the whole strict "you are either straight or gay" lines of accepted reasoning, more people turn out to fall outside those lines.
I can speak from experience in this regard, like, you just never consider the feelings towards your own gender, if you also have feelings for the other gender if that falls within society's norm.
It's only after you have your first question proposition from the same gender, or a super obvious crush on your own gender that you suddenly start re-evaluating earlier experiences.
Maybe straight kids don't realllllyyy hope for that goodnight 'kiss' from their same gender baby sitter... you know maybe that's a thing..

[bright]

I'd be quite happy if these two didn't end up together, they have nothing in common and it saves me from being annoyed at previously 'straight' characters being turned gay. Too much of a being gay is a choice vibe.

Presumed straight, maybe. Plenty a person simply never considered he might be attracted to a person of a certain gender.
And what's wrong with it being a choice? I can make myself attracted to someone---anyone---and I gladly did it more than once. You wanna say I shouldn't exercise that choice? My choice to make myself attracted to someone e.g. if I think there might be a benefit, e.g. strengthening what already is a close friendship, with a person who I learn is carnally interested in me.. Not exactly sure how, but if I put the intention to be attracted to someone, it happens.

Homosexuality being called a choice has basically been used as a reason to discriminate against LGBT. It's also the idea behind the very harmful gay conversion therapy. It took a lot of work of to get a general acceptance that homosexuality is not a choice.

Sexuality is complicated. You have 100% straight and 100% gay and everything in between. Most people fall somewhere on that scale.

I personally believe you can be 100% straight and physically enjoy sex with the opposite sex. It's just not your activity of choice. I do think however that you are quite aware of yourself how interested you are in the opposite sex, your own sex, no sex or other at all by your 20s. You might not accept this, but you are aware of it. Clinton by having to ask his sister did not seem aware of his possible same sex attraction. That seems weird to me. If he'd be bi, he would have likely already been attracted to a guy before and wouldn't need Claire to walk him through it. Of course this last part is just my opinion/experience with it.

[snubnose]

I chose the funny option, as is traditional.

Drat.

And here I went all rebellious and went for the funny options out of sheer spite !

... not sure against whom, though.

[BenRG]

I chose the funny option, as is traditional.

Drat.

And here I went all rebellious and went for the funny options out of sheer spite !

... not sure against whom, though.

When everyone plays the class clown, then being the studious, serious one is a revolutionary act.

[Gyrre]

I chose the funny option, as is traditional.

Drat.

And here I went all rebellious and went for the funny options out of sheer spite !

... not sure against whom, though.

When everyone plays the class clown, then being the studious, serious one is a revolutionary act.

That's actually partially why I hide the poll results until somebody has voted.

Several studies show that knowing the poll results prior to voting will very much influence how someone will vote. Unfortunately, several corporations, foundations, and other organizations have yet to grock that when allowing the public to vote for something. Hence 'Boaty McBoatface' and Green Onion Chex.

[hedgie]

Sadly, during my school days, I was class clown and at the top of every exam simultaneously. 

[wiserd]

I personally believe you can be 100% straight and physically enjoy sex with the opposite sex.

I personally think people need to factor in both 'attraction' and 'disgust.' A person might lack attraction and also lack disgust and be capable of  the type of flexibility you describe. But if a person is disgusted by a certain activity then they probably won't enjoy it. It seems problematic to me that many people seem to view attraction as real but view disgust entirely as a choice.

In the average person, attraction decreases disgust. Though I suspect that there are some people who are missing that effect, and experience both at the same time.

[Mr. Doctor]

Urgh. This is just a trainwreck and I want it to stop. The interactions between Elliot, Brun and Clinton are all too forced. Just stay as friends.

Please, do not misunderstand me, I'm not complaining to Jeph. On the countrary I feel this has been an all too perfect demonstration of what awkwardness is when it comes to pursuing relationships. How forced and clearly-non-reciprocating it can be.




Now let's move to May and Sven's possible death by snu-snu. 

[snubnose]

Now let's move to May and Sven's possible death by snu-snu. 

WORD !!!!

[Reaver]

I feel like Elliot and Clinton shoulda tried to be friends before they tried the romance game...

[bright]

I personally think people need to factor in both 'attraction' and 'disgust.' A person might lack attraction and also lack disgust and be capable of  the type of flexibility you describe. But if a person is disgusted by a certain activity then they probably won't enjoy it. It seems problematic to me that many people seem to view attraction as real but view disgust entirely as a choice.

In the average person, attraction decreases disgust. Though I suspect that there are some people who are missing that effect, and experience both at the same time.

I agree with this that disgust is very much a factor. I do think that disgust is something you learn and pick up though, but once it's set in, it's really hard to get over if ever. But with disgust I think the problem is being actually disgusted by stuff and just not liking thing. When does one cross over to the other. I think it's easy for people to dismiss disgust as oh they just don't like it.

Now let's move to May and Sven's possible death by snu-snu. 

Yes please.

[Christophelous]

I feel like Elliot and Clinton shoulda tried to be friends before they tried the romance game...

I thought they were friends. They were formally introduced to each other about 900 comics ago (comic 3507)  and they've had plenty of times where they've had what seems like fairly natural conversation. For two dudes who are socially awkward in different ways, at least. And who manage to repeatedly flirt with each other. "Accidently."

Anyways, my vote is for Brun going back with Elliot and cat conversations ensue. Brun is good for Elliot in this situation. She's incapable of seeing deceit in her friends, so she'll probably be able to speak about Clinton's actions in a ways that let's Elliot look past his own insecurities about what Clinton was saying. I hope Elliot is able to open up to Clinton after that, but I can't see him doing so (or going over to meet his mother... yeah... DEFINITELY NOT a date, right?) before clearing up some things in his own mind.

[Perfectly Reasonable]

Clearly we can't have all three points of the triangle in the same place at the same time because the drama would become  incommensurable.

( get back to work you goof offs )

[St.Clair]

Clearly we can't have all three points of the triangle in the same place at the same time because the drama would become  incommensurable.

( get back to work you goof offs )

I had to look that up to make sure it wasn't a synonym for "unsustainable" or  (almost) "immediately resolved".
(It is, so far as I can tell, not.)

[dutchrvl]

It's not a date. They made that clear before hand. It's just hanging out while Elliot is at work.  He didn't "spend the evening", he talked with Brun for a few minutes on his way to the commode. He didn't "unload", he relayed what he considered to be useful and helpful information. That Elliot was upset by said information is unfortunate, and if Clinton was/is made aware of it, apologies should be made, but as it stands unless Elliot makes his feelings known, Clinton has no way of knowing.

I generally agree with you on all points, except that Clinton is not entirely without a faux-pas here. For one he knows about Elliott's interest in him (or am I misremembering that?), and therefore it's not exactly great how he decided to talk to Elliott about just having a convo with Brun to see whether she was into him. Plus, I don't think it's up to Clinton to share with Elliot what Brun told him regarding her attraction (or lack thereof) to other guys.

But yes, Elliot going out of his way to talk about his feelings is making things even worse.

[Thrillho]

You know what would make things less complicated? Clear and honest communication.

Pfffffffffffffffft if you had a penis you would understand why it gets in the way of my feelings

Not saying that communication isn't a good thing, but sometimes you really aren't in the mood to do so. And sometimes telling people how you really feel at that moment in time, is definitely a bad thing.

It's no use explaining your feelings to someone who's clearly drunk and being irrational. It's also no use for Elliot to tell Brun that Clinton was being a Jerk, because badmouthing someone's friend is not a nice thing to do. And Elliot is a kind person. And I'm pretty sure now isn't the time to discuss his feelings about Elliot and Brun to Brun. It's just complicated as he said. Also during all this he is still working so now is not the time because of that as well.

I have to say in general I think that Jeph does a great job with how his characters react to situations. Sometimes people do shitty stuff, sometimes you just don't want to deal with stuff. I've been there and yeah.
Clinton isn't a bad person, he just has bad moments. Nobody is perfect. Trust me if you insist on communicating your feelings all the time, I'm pretty sure there are people out there who find you insufferable.

In short. Communication is good, but has to be well timed and well considered. Don't constantly unload your feelings on everyone on the spot because you're just making everything about you. You're basically doing what Clinton did. A whole heck of a lot of feelings got communicated there and you all think he's an ass for it.

I think you're misunderstanding the direction of the criticism here. I don't think anyone is advocating for 'immediately tell Clinton this is hurting your feelings and why.' I think people are advocating for 'if you had asked Clinton out on an actual date and/or made your feelings known up front, you'd probably not be in the situation you are currently in.'

I'd be quite happy if these two didn't end up together, they have nothing in common and it saves me from being annoyed at previously 'straight' characters being turned gay. Too much of a being gay is a choice vibe.

Why is that, exactly? Because that gives me a 'straight unless otherwise stated' vibe, which is a thing that could equally do with being eroded.

[Case]

You know what would make things less complicated? Clear and honest communication.

Pfffffffffffffffft if you had a penis you would understand why it gets in the way of my feelings

Actually, it tends to get in the way, period.

P.S. Zippers. Not your friends, they are.

[zisraelsen]

Comic!

This is... a good thing?

[Zebediah]

Elliot just summarized the last week of forum posts for us.

Well, maybe “summarized” is the wrong word.

[St.Clair]

holy shit, he actually did it.

I ... did not expect that.

[Gnabberwocky]

Close, Elliot, but that's too much communication. Dial it back.

[shanejayell]

Now I'm going 'Poor Brun.' *lol*

[Farideh]

I'm going for 'Poor Elliot AND Brun'.


Now, if Elliot can summarize that a bit, he'll have the perfect speech for Clinton.

[Reaver]

....Too much communication, dial it back like 3 notches and we're absolutely good.

[Oenone]

Poor Brun. She’s got all these dudes emotionally vomiting on her AT WORk. Rude.

[Reaver]

Poor Brun. She’s got all these dudes emotionally vomiting on her AT WORk. Rude.

I don't feel sympathy for miss "I am picturing us having sex right now, btw do you want to  talk about masturbation?" Lol, especially since you know...

She asked....

To clarify, I don't think Poor Brun for the Elliot thing, and sorta roll my eyes at the Clinton thing, but either way this isn't really a  " Poor Brun" moment to me

[Tova]

Let’s not forget that she has spent her career listening to customers emotionally unburdening themselves.

She’s very good at her job.

If he starts again and slows down this time, I am sure she will have some sound advice to offer.