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Author Topic: Dystopian Literature  (Read 16563 times)

Laurie

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Dystopian Literature
« on: 08 Jan 2006, 18:40 »

Since this forum is also about books, I would like to perhaps discuss one of my favourite topics in said subject, dystopian literature.

I actually developed a course for this subject that few friends and I are doing as an independent study this coming semester, and I am excited. We're supposed to read the first book over break.

Anyway, what are your favourite dystopic novels? Any particular fears or realizations? Recommendations?
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Rawr and Stuff

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #1 on: 08 Jan 2006, 18:54 »

Alright, I'm man enough to sound like an uncultured noob, but what exactly is dystopian literature? I dont' think I've ever heard of it before...
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thesonglessbird

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #2 on: 08 Jan 2006, 19:13 »

Dystopian literature? 1984 for example?
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Laurie

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #3 on: 08 Jan 2006, 19:21 »

Sorry, I should have explained a bit more.

Yes, 1984 is an excellent example of dystopian literature. This is a subgenre of fiction, sometimes crossing with science-fiction, which portrays a supposedly utopian, or perfect, society, which is actually quite the opposite. The societies are usually categorized by widespread government control, propaganda supporting the government, and the protagonists are usually people who find the society dissatisfying. They are usually vaguely futuristic in setting, but can also be in another place altogether, which is where the sci-fi crossover sometimes comes in.

Other classic examples include Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, and The Giver. Some examples of dystopia in movies include Blade Runner, Minority Report, and Dark City. (None of which I've seen, but they're all on the course list for my class.)
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Rawr and Stuff

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« Reply #4 on: 08 Jan 2006, 19:24 »

Oh alright, that helps a lot, thanks. I've only read one of these books and I can't remember the title, and it was for a class I didn't enjoy so can't say I truly savored the book. But I like the general ideas presented in this genre.
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« Reply #5 on: 08 Jan 2006, 19:59 »

I love Faranheit 451.  Actually I love pretty much anything by Ray Bradbury.

I wonder if Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast trilogy could be regarded as dystopian?  Certainly it's highly subversive of the traditional fairytale castle setting that often gets romanticised in literature.
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nescience

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #6 on: 08 Jan 2006, 20:10 »

Certainly cyberpunk fiction fits the description you give.  It is near-future sci-fi that focuses on technological conflict in an often dystopic society.  Key writers include William Gibson (Neuromancer, Idoru, All Tomorrow's Parties), Bruce Sterling, and Neal Stephenson (Snow Crash, Cryptonomicon, The Diamond Age).  Dark City and Blade Runner are both considered examples of cyberpunk cinema.  

From this genre, a number of offshoots have since appeared like steampunk, dieselpunk, and others that use the dystopian outlook and technological conflict of cyberpunk in speculative historical settings.

Some wording borrowed from Wikipedia.

edit: Sorry, forgot about recommendations!  My favorite cyberpunk novel is probably The Diamond Age, set in a 21st-century neo-Victorian, nano-technological society. (edit again to provide more info) Globalization has caused major governments to collapse and in their place arise loosely-knit "phyles" bound by ethnic makeup, religion, philosophy, corporate affiliation, or common need for protection. The story centers around three characters: a Victorian engineer who produces a revolutionary invention for a powerful Lord, a young girl who tries to rise out of poverty and a broken home, and an actress who becomes absorbed in her very peculiar profession.
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Laurie

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #7 on: 08 Jan 2006, 20:23 »

Oh yeah- that's the other thing. Lots of government control and usually tons of technology. Technology is a big sign of dystopia, even in older books. In high school I read a dys/utopian book written in the late 1800s about the year 2000. I guess it was an honest attempt at writing a utopia, which makes it stand out from the other dystopian books, but it had the heavy government regulation, the technology that was unheard of (radios and credit-card prototypes), and a strange view on societal interactions... although they may have been de rigeur for the 1800s.

I only read Fahrenheit 451 this past summer, but it's on the list of required texts for this class, and well worth a re-read.

I've not gotten much into the cyberpunk genre, although I'm looking forward to the movies.
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Orchid

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #8 on: 08 Jan 2006, 20:27 »

Brave New World is one of my favorite dystopian novels. :)

I believe The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood would fall under this category, as well, if you're interested.
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Mnementh

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #9 on: 08 Jan 2006, 21:34 »

I almost picked up Letham's Gun, With Occasional Music today.  I've got so many books to read before it though, that I held off.

Does Storm Constantine's Wraeththu trilogy count?
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Bunnyman

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #10 on: 08 Jan 2006, 23:23 »

Unfortunately, Cyberpunk literature is generally far superior to Cyberpunk cinema, which is generally just bad sci-fi action.  Blade Runner being a very notable exception.

Jennifer Government by Max Berry is an excellent comic dystopia.  The attitude is quite reminiscent of Snow Crash.  If that isn't enough to sell it, imagine that the entire planet is essentially stratified between two giant credit card companies, corporate employees take their employer's name as their last name, and corporate lackeys are told to kill teenagers to market sneakers, only to subcontract out to the police, who subcontract out to the NRA.  And madness of the most inspired kind ensues.  Yea, it was good.
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« Reply #11 on: 08 Jan 2006, 23:58 »

Brave New World is my favourite just for the ending.

Since the classics have all been mentioned, some others you may want to consider, looking around my shelves. Almost entirely sci-fi here, and some are borderline:

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (Philip K. Dick)
Time Out of Joint (Philip K. Dick)
The Game Players of Titan (Philip K. Dick)
Also pretty much everything Dick ever wrote, in some way or other. I'm trying desperately to think of the titles of some of his crucial short strories in this area. I'll search some compendiums later.
Stone* (Adam Roberts)
The Night's Dawn Trilogy [The Reality Dysfunction/The Neutronium Alchemist/The Naked God]** (Peter F. Hamilton)
Fallen Dragon*** (Peter F. Hamilton)
The Uncertain Midnight (Edmund Cooper)
Who Needs Men and Five to Twelve**** (Edmund Cooper)
The Cloud Walker (Edmund Cooper)
The Last Continent***** (Edmund Cooper)
Stand on Zanzibar (John Brunner)
Shockwave Rider****** (John Brunner)

Also, on a related note, you might want to consider a few alternative history novels, as they often explore similiar themes (indeed, 1984 is technically an alternate history):

The Man in the High Castle (Philip K Dick)
The Years of Rice and Salt (Kim Stanley Robinson)
Fatherland (Robert Harris)

As for movies, 'A Clockwork Orange' and 'Akira' are a must, and probably 'Ghost in the Shell' as well, come to that. And, though this sounds really geeky, there's some classic star-trek episodes that would be quite good to watch for this. I'm thinking of things like that Next Generation episodes where they visit a seemingly Utopian society where even the slightest crime is punished by death.

* Arguably it is Stones protagonist who is flawed, rather than the culture.

** Not classically Dystopian, rather a space opera, but several dystopian or semi-dystopian societies (future earth, Norfolk, Valisk etc.) are visited. It's extremely long and complex though, so you may wish to skip it.

*** As in Night's Dawn, not a strict dystopian novel, but the main character must escape several unsatisfying, dystopic worlds before the novels conclusion. Arguably worth reading under this subject merely for the conversations between Lawrence and the environmentalist protestor.

**** I still have no idea if these are a bizarre, chauvanistic but original critique of feminism or just a crazy pulp romp. Since this is the same man who wrote 'The Deathworms of Kratos', I would say more likely the latter.

***** Again, it's more a criticism of the Martians than of the culture they discover.

****** The first cyberpunk novel. So dated that the computer viruses the protagonist uses are called tapeworms because they're actual sections of magnetic tape.
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zmeiat_joro

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« Reply #12 on: 09 Jan 2006, 06:14 »

I wouldn't call Neal Stephenson's books dystopian just because they share similar themes with 80's cyberpunk. Also, Khar, high five, you know your sci-fi :)
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« Reply #13 on: 09 Jan 2006, 06:17 »

Quote from: KharBevNor
As for movies, 'A Clockwork Orange'


. . . Uh, you do realise that this was a book first, right Khar?
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zmeiat_joro

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« Reply #14 on: 09 Jan 2006, 06:40 »

The film is on par with the novel in therms of quality, I think.

Also, I can mention Trouble on Triton: An Ambiguous Heterotopia here.
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mooface

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #15 on: 09 Jan 2006, 09:21 »

I read Brave New World last year... crazy stuff. I preferred it over 1984, actually.  Not because it was better, but because I found it less depressing...
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« Reply #16 on: 09 Jan 2006, 10:07 »

i'll tell you an awesome dystopian movie...
ZARDOZ

i have yet to get around to reading any of the famous dystopian novels, i may have read some without noticing though
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cuchlann

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #17 on: 09 Jan 2006, 23:39 »

Hey - I think it's in the handbook somewhere that I reply to this (I'm an English grad. student).  So hurrah for posting it, Laurie!  

Actually, a professor of mine had an entire class devoted to dystopian future lit. about a year ago - her three core books were Dr. Bloodmoney by Dick, Cat's Cradle by Vonnegut, and The Sheep Look Up by John Brunner (KharBevNor mentioned another of his books - Shockwave Rider).  

I didn't get a chance to take the course, but she lent me a syllabus; I've read Dick's and Brunner's books.  If you want a recommendation, absolutely you must read The Sheep Look Up.  It's not your classic dystopian novel - first, it's postmodern, so the story unrolls from dozens of perspectives all at once, brilliantly handled.  Second, it's centered on ecological problems, like insects and vermin becoming immune to our poisons and a toxic food supply.  It's very scary, if you look at modern ecological motions in American government (it's set in the United States).  

Also, I've yet to read (but have a copy and eagerly await it to come up in queue) A Canticle for Leibowitz, but the strange fetishizing of technology after an apocalypse (it becomes a religion after it's forgotten) has made it famous as well.

Laurie, you mentioned a book written in the nineteenth century?  Were you talking about More's Utopia?  We discussed that a bit in theory class (as well as 1984, Brave New World, and Blade Runner/"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"), and I think the prevalent idea is that it's a parody - that is, More probably didn't feel a Uptopia was possible, and the book was his attempt to illustrate what would happen if we tried for one.  The classic dystopian books (again, 1984, et cetera) follow this pattern - most characters believe the world is a utopia.  The more recent dystopia novels don't do that; it's generally thought of as a reflection of our move away from the Enlightenment/Romantic idealism and toward the post-war cynicism.

Also, Huxley wrote a companion to Brave New World called "Braver New World," a non-fiction piece about how society decades after the novel's writing did and didn't match what he'd foreseen.[/u]

A few people have mentioned cyberpunk - good for them!  I'm a huge cyberpunk fan.  Stephenson actually wrote a semi-dystopian book (apart from all the others of his mentioned so far) called Zodiac.  It's about ecology as well, and isn't as far-reaching as most dystopias, but it does deal with the private sector's influence on that sort of problem.  

If you really want some hard-hitting pieces of cyberpunk (almost all the traditional cyberpunk could be considered dystopian, though the government isn't always a huge conspiracy) check out William Gibson's collection of short stories, Burning Chrome.  

Of course, one could also consider sections of Wells' The Time Machine - the society that spawned the Morlocks is certainly a poor place to consider as our future.  

And I thought I would mention my personal favorite - Moorcock's Cornelius stories, particularly The Final Programme.  It's easiest to find this book in a collection called The Cornelius Quartet.  The other three books follow the same line, in a sense, but they're also grand experiments in the New Worlds sixties style (New Worlds magazine was edited my Moorcock in the sixties), so they also run ragged into a lot of other ideas.  The Final Programme features a London empty of people and full of a mob that functions as a hive mind (adapted to survive the blow to individuality that the end-times is), and a kind of computer mind-dump golem devouring all things.  Some people cite Jerry (Cornelius) as the first cyberpunk hero, though that's debatable.  

Jeez.  Okay, I actually haven't posted over in the "I'm new" forum yet, so this is my first post.  I couldn't resist the allure of literature.
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nescience

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #18 on: 10 Jan 2006, 00:36 »

Quote from: Bunnyman
Unfortunately, Cyberpunk literature is generally far superior to Cyberpunk cinema, which is generally just bad sci-fi action.  Blade Runner being a very notable exception.


Don't forget Dark City, one of my favorite films from the 90s.
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« Reply #19 on: 10 Jan 2006, 02:35 »

Khar, are you my British clone? Cause I was going to post almost the same list.
I'd add Richard Morgan's series about Takeshi Kovacs, starting with Altered Carbon. Not entirely dystopian but very cyberpunk.
John Brunner is all about the dystopia.
Neal Stephenson is firmly dystopian despite what people say. A future ruled by corporate empires who'll buy your time? Dys.
A lot of Robert Rankin's comedies are dystopian. Particularly the Apocalypse series.
Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series is space comedy with cyberpunk/dystopian elements. His "Bill the trooper" series are similar.
I heavily advocate Brave New World, one of my all time favourite books.
What else is lying around on my desk?
Ah... The Forever War by Joe Haldeman is highly dystopian. Read it and then some Vietnam literature. You'll learn.
I've yet to see Blade Runner but I've read "Do Andriods Dream Of Electric Sheep?" so I'm half way there.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #20 on: 10 Jan 2006, 21:14 »

Quote from: Inlander
Quote from: KharBevNor
As for movies, 'A Clockwork Orange'


. . . Uh, you do realise that this was a book first, right Khar?


Yes, but I didn't like the book ^_^

Whoever mentioned Zardoz is funny, but evil.

@ Cuchlann: Dammit! How could I forget Vonnegut? Also, I think pretty much all of Brunners novels are dystopian, but I've only read Shockwave Rider and Stand on Zanzibar.

@zmeiat_joro: high five's for geekery! Hurrah!
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cuchlann

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #21 on: 10 Jan 2006, 23:52 »

Khar: you had a very long list - I think it's probably all right to forget someone.  

I believe you're right about Brunner, though - I've only read Sheep. . ., though.  I really wanna read Shockwave Rider, but I own quite a few books I need to read yet (over a hundred, at last count), and Brunner's very good at making a reader fairly depressed.  

Brunner also helped design the peace sign, if I remember correctly - it was originally a stylized graphic of the semaphore signs for N and D (nuclear disarmament) used a lot in fifties Britain.  Like a lot of movements, the ND touched base with the anti-war movement later on, and the symbol transferred.
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Mnementh

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #22 on: 11 Jan 2006, 06:04 »

Quote from: El-Rodente
i'll tell you an awesome dystopian movie...
ZARDOZ


Hah!  This was on tv the other night.
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JP

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #23 on: 11 Jan 2006, 12:03 »

A very worthwhile read that hasn't been mentioned yet is We by Yevgeny Zamyatin. He wrote it between 1917-1920, so it predates Brave New World, etc., and is a an example of a dystopian novel actually written in the kind of society it portrays.
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Ozymandias

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« Reply #24 on: 11 Jan 2006, 17:44 »

Also, in the movie realm, much love for Gattaca.

One of my favorite sci-fi/dystopian movies.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #25 on: 11 Jan 2006, 17:45 »

Quote from: cuchlann

Brunner also helped design the peace sign, if I remember correctly - it was originally a stylized graphic of the semaphore signs for N and D (nuclear disarmament) used a lot in fifties Britain.  Like a lot of movements, the ND touched base with the anti-war movement later on, and the symbol transferred.


Ooh, so that's what its meant to represent. I thought it was supposed to be someone with their arms out-stretched. Ironically, it also looks like an inverted life-rune or nazi Lebensborn symbol, which has fed into some conspiracy theories concoted by those who probably know too much about nazi symbolism.
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sjbrot

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #26 on: 11 Jan 2006, 22:26 »

There's been a lot of talk about Brave New World and even mention of Brave New World Revisited, which isn't surprising. I'm just wondering if anyone read his novel Island that was published sometime later.

It would be hard to classify it as a disutopian novel since it was Huxley's effort at describing his perfect society. Parenting's done by the society as a whole, people are taught to control their gods and therefore their fates while rejecting consumerism and using drugs in moderation to expand their minds.

What may qualify it as a disutopian novel in some way (actually, probably not, but whatever) is the ending, which also happens to be the most interesting part of the novel.

***SPOILLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRZZZZ***

The book ends with one of the patriarch's of the island country selling it out to corporate interests because he has a fascination with scooters if I remember correctly. The last thing the narrator tells is that he hears machine gun fire in the distance.

That can lead to so many interpretations. I always took it to mean that Huxley believed that his own perfect society was attainable, but that it would undoubtably fall victim to individuals working for their own benefit.

End ***SPOILLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRZZZZ***

Also, I liked to point out Jonathan Lethem's great novel, Gun With Occasional Music, a surrealist detective work wrapped in setting disutopian where the protaginist is doomed to be eaten up by society in the end but still manages to score a personal victory.
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« Reply #27 on: 12 Jan 2006, 02:19 »

Moore's V For Vendetta is a very good example of Dystopian Fiction in graphic novel form.


it's also coming out as a movie that looks... okay. they r-r-r-really could have chosen a better actress for the starring role.
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cuchlann

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« Reply #28 on: 12 Jan 2006, 22:15 »

Oy, Trollstormur - I just thought I'd say I like your Mjollnir icon.  Neat-o.  

Khar: It does look like an inverted rune, doesn't it?  With a circle around it.  I actually saw a website run by really, really fundamentalist folks that claimed it was a broken cross.  Let me get my reference so my nerdy grad. student nature doesn't bother me...  

All right, there we go.  In reference to the CND (Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament):  "To create the symbol, Holtom used the naval flag code of semaphore, and the symbol represents the code letters for ND -- 'nuclear disarmament.' [. . .]  In the United States and elsewhere it is known more broadly as the all-familiar peace symbol adopted by the 1960s anti-war movement."  (Bell, James John.  "Afterword."  The Sheep Look Up.  378-79).  So Holtom made the symbol; Brunner was a part of the organization, and the early fifties protests.
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Bunnyman

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Dystopian Literature
« Reply #29 on: 13 Jan 2006, 00:35 »

I'm hesitant to lump Cyberpunk with dystopia, because it's meant to be an extension of today's society, whereas most dystopian lit is more fantastical in nature; i.e. defies time and place.

The Neuromancer trilogy wouldn't be written in any decade other than the 80s; the Bridge trilogy (Virtual Light~Idoru~All Tomorrows Parties) is very 90s.  Snow Crash is distinctly 90s as well.  All the above books present a world, and ideas come from it, rather than the other way around.  Blade Runner is a bit fuzzier in this respect, but in classic Ridley Scott manner the world is so fleshed out that it can stand on its own independent of the plot.  This also goes for that other great Ridley Scott dystopia, Alien.

While 1984 is explicitly set in a certain year, that and other works such as Fahrenheit 451 and Brave New World are not linked to time and place so much as ideas.  All mechanics of the world, be it miniluv or soma, are tied explicitly to literary ideas.  If you strip away these ideas, there isn't much left.  This isn't to suggest that the works lack any merit, but they simply have a different focus.

Additionally, cyberpunk generally only hints at a failed utopia; the fact that it is a natural extension of today's society suggests a more organic course of evolution, rather than the forced engineering suggested by the label 'dystopia.'
----

Canticle for Leibowitz is a good banner-bearer for that other great pseudo-dystopian genre, Post-Apocalyptica.  Canticle is vaguely dystopian, especially towards the end (spoiler!) but is definitely more of a sci-fi novel playing with cool ideas rather than building a counter-utopian society.  Nonetheless, it's a great read, and highly recommended.

If you want to open that can of worms, may I forward Alas, Babylon, Warday,, and The Postman as three excellent examples of the genre?  These represent a good cross-section of Cold War paranoia through the second half of the 20th Century.  Earth Abides is another good post-apoc novel, though it's more of an existential piece and less immediately a "we're all going to die" piece.

-----

As a final note, I'll forward Battle Royale as genuine Dystopian fiction.
Not because it's particularly brilliant, subtle, well-written, poignant, emotionally engaging, or anything else for that matter.  More because it's absolutely bollocks.
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Paper Beats Rock

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« Reply #30 on: 13 Jan 2006, 01:56 »

I preferred the book of Clockwork Orange to the film, I think the book encourages you to think about the issues more.  Also, he's come up with some cool new slang.

One of my favourite ever books is Shamanspace by Steve Aylett.  He's a pretty funny cyberpunk writer, some of his other books are set in various dystopic societies.  Also, he has the best set of quotes you'll ever hear from a single writer-

"One golfer a year gets hit by lightning, this may be the only evidence we have that God exists."

"Sanity's a virginity of the mind."

"An optimist sees the future the same way a rabbit sees an oncoming truck- getting bigger not closer."

"Biting your opponants is acceptable in a very narrow range of circumstances...or so a ninja shouted at me once."

There's more here- http://www.steveaylett.com/Pages/aylettquotes.html
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Hythlodaeus

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« Reply #31 on: 15 Jan 2006, 03:07 »

We by Evgenii Zamyatin.

Managed to write a dystopian-future-as-allegory-for-Stalinism in the early 1920's.



For the historically lobotomised, that was in fact before Stalin's rise to power.
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« Reply #32 on: 15 Jan 2006, 04:13 »

Would the "Left Behind" series be considered dystopian?
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« Reply #33 on: 15 Jan 2006, 04:19 »

Quote from: Orchid
Brave New World is one of my favorite dystopian novels. :)

I believe The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood would fall under this category, as well, if you're interested.


Don't read the Handmaids Tale! Its boring drivel.

As for dystopian stories I think Ive only really read 1984 which comes into that catergory.
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« Reply #34 on: 15 Jan 2006, 04:47 »

It may not technically qualify as "literature" because of it's format, but check out "Tales From The After Now".

The format is that of a guy doing a pirate radio broadcast backwards in time to try and stop his world from coming to pass. It's all episodic, fantastically written, and incredibly well acted by the author.

Due to be coming out in graphic novel format pretty soon, too.
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Kai

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« Reply #35 on: 15 Jan 2006, 07:25 »

Quote from: Hythlodaeus
We by Evgenii Zamyatin.

Managed to write a dystopian-future-as-allegory-for-Stalinism in the early 1920's.



This is actually the book I was wondering if anybody was going to mention. So totally awesome. Although I thought his first name was Yevgeny? I don't know. Silly Russians.


 Khar's list also pretty much hits the nail on the head.



As for Clockwork Orange, the inclusion of made up slang words and whatnot threw me off in the beginning and I never got into it. Also, Kubrick did a wonderful job in the movie.


I also reccomend the following:

This Perfect Day - Ira Levin
Managerial Revolution - Burnham
Iron Heel - Jack London
Anthem - Ayn Rand
Fahrenheit 451- Ray Bradbury
Player Piano - Kurt Vonnegut
Brave New World - Aldous Huxley
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? - Phillip K. Dick


And some others that aren't coming to me. I'll look at my shelf later.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

IronOxide

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« Reply #36 on: 15 Jan 2006, 07:34 »

I've read Anthem and Ferinheit 451, which I loved. So i'm going to read Brave New World, eventually.
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No matches have been played since February 2007, however, when an elephant, protesting a bad call by the referee, went on a rampage during a game, injuring two players and destroying the Spanish team's minibus

zmeiat_joro

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« Reply #37 on: 15 Jan 2006, 09:43 »

Quote from: Kai
This is actually the book I was wondering if anybody was going to mention. So totally awesome. Although I thought his first name was Yevgeny? I don't know. Silly Russians.

It's Евгений. /jEvg_jEnij/.
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I, for one, welcome the fragmentation of deeper levels of shared reality.

cuchlann

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« Reply #38 on: 15 Jan 2006, 13:48 »

Bunnyman: good points about cyberpunk, but a few things can still mark it as a dystopian genre.  Most dystopian fiction *does* come from a particular tendency current in the writer's time.  That is, 1984 wouldn't sound the way it does if it hadn't been written during the early stages of the Cold War, when everyone still freshly remembered the World War.  Also, if you run with the assumption common in cyberpunk that the corporations are running things (through a puppet government, simple corporate-bloc influence, et cetera) then it is the overarching power controlling people.  It's just a new shift in the genre's ideas - the government in the eighties wasn't obviously intrusive enough to warrant fiction where they took characters off the street and brainwashed them - dissenters just disappear, or get paid what'll shut them up.  

So it depends on which definition one uses to define "dystopia."  Given the core value of writing a dystopia - social commentary - cyberpunk can easily be pointed to as a modern re-evaluation of dystopia.  Just like cyberpunk is science-fiction, even though it doesn't involve spaceships and Buck Rogers-style heroes (or, going further back, Verne/Wells-esque inventors).  

Someone asked about the Left Behind series.  All I know about that is my professor (what set up the dystopian lit. class) made fun of that series when we were discussing what books she could use.
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Paper Beats Rock

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« Reply #39 on: 15 Jan 2006, 14:18 »

I just consider dystopia to mean a society where things are presented as being much worse than they are now, kind of the opposite of 'utopia', even though the actual 'utopia' would be a dystopia by my definition.  

It's odd though, because sometimes in dystopic literature the quality of life is higher than it is now, but the society or certain members have society have sacrificed something that makes it worse overall in the eyes of the author.  So really, whether or not something is a dystopia or a utopia rests largely on the individuals values.
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sjbrot

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« Reply #40 on: 15 Jan 2006, 18:28 »

@ Paper Beats Rock: You aren't alone. The author of A Clockwork Orange didn't enjoy the movie either.
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kid_militia

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« Reply #41 on: 18 Jan 2006, 14:06 »

If you're willing to go into the world of graphic novels, I believe Enki Bilal's work could be classified as dystopic. Of his work I own the Nikopol Trilogy and the first two parts of the Beast Trilogy. The art and stories are top-notch, a mix of miserable future with great characters.
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Bunnyman

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« Reply #42 on: 19 Jan 2006, 00:53 »

Quote from: cuchlann
So it depends on which definition one uses to define "dystopia."  Given the core value of writing a dystopia - social commentary - cyberpunk can easily be pointed to as a modern re-evaluation of dystopia.  Just like cyberpunk is science-fiction, even though it doesn't involve spaceships and Buck Rogers-style heroes (or, going further back, Verne/Wells-esque inventors).


A friend of mine once said that the difference between Science Fiction and Fantasy was internal consistency, which would make some sci-fi actually fantasy and (to a much smaller extent) vice versa.

Just an interesting idea.
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Paper Beats Rock

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« Reply #43 on: 19 Jan 2006, 08:03 »

I disagree, I think that every good story should have internal consistency, whether it is science fiction, fantasy or any other genre.  I think that the difference between science fiction and fantasy is that SF fans are better with technology so they have jobs and live in flats that they decorate like spaceships, whereas there are very few jobs for fantasy fans so most of them are basement dwellers.

EDIT: Hold on, what did he mean by 'internal consistency'?  Did he mean that fantasy involves some sort of 'magic' whereas SF doesn't?  That would mean that things like alternate histories which have no futuristic technology in them would class as sci-fi, not fantasy, which I guess is about right.
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whitehatblackshoes

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« Reply #44 on: 19 Jan 2006, 11:05 »

Quote
Other classic examples include Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, and The Giver. Some examples of dystopia in movies include Blade Runner, Minority Report, and Dark City. (None of which I've seen, but they're all on the course list for my class.)


You should add "Equilibrium" to that movie list as well.  It's about society that has rejected all emotions, and has an ongoing "war" against anything that makes a person feel, i.e; books, paintings, music.  and the people have to take this drug to stamp out all feelings.  The main character (played by Christian Bale) finds himself hesitant after he kills his partner.

Also, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged is a good example of not necessarily a dystopic society, just one that is ran by the biggest morons in the history of moronics.
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cuchlann

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« Reply #45 on: 19 Jan 2006, 11:59 »

Well, *all* functioning stories have internal consistency - things work the same way each time, under the same circumstances.  

Technically, all science-fiction is fantasy - as fantasy is just a genre defined as not able to happen in the world as it is (generally when the piece is written).  What's generally termed as "fantasy" is actually romance, in the traditional sense of the word - an adventure story, often with supernatural elements (think Gawain and the Green Knight or King Horn).  As one of my professors is fond of saying (often calling on me, as he knows I write fantasy fairly well), it's even more important for fantasy (sci-fi or romance) to have internal consistency, because the world itself is strange to the reader, and needs to make some kind of sense, or else the audience will be alienated.  

Think of one of fantasy's major icons: Leiber's Lankhmar stories.  Wizards and sorcerers have a great deal of power  and understanding, but are often blind to the basic functionings of the world, because they've willfully removed themselves from it.  They become, in a sense, the fantastic equivalent of the traditional scholar in the "real" world.  

And Orson Scott Card once defined the difference between science-fiction and fantasy this way: if you press a button on a console to go back in time, it's sci-fi; if you rub a talisman, it's fantasy.  

Fantasy is the form of literature that hearkens most easily and readily to myth and the internal psychological workings of people that myth grows from.  Campbell, Frye, Levi-Strauss, and Jung, among others, have detailed the bits and pieces of that growth.  One can make a case for saying every fantasy can be viewed as the internal working of a person's mind.  Science-fiction, then, is the working of someone's mind when they're bent toward a particular thought - technology (theoretically) ahead of the person's own.
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Paper Beats Rock

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« Reply #46 on: 19 Jan 2006, 12:19 »

Yeah, that's the point I was originally trying to make about internal consistency.  Things that are considered fantasy might set themselfs up as being in a fantasy world with fantasy concepts, such as magic, and as long as the story runs on these concepts without introducing new outlandish or contradictory new ones it's consistent.  Things that depart from internal consistency are either called 'crap' or 'post-modern', often interchangably.

I agree with what you're saying about the actual SF/fantasy/romance thing, it's just that sometimes it's hard to define something as being clearly one or the other.  Quite a lot of the humour in certain Pratchett books comes from applying real-world scientific or pseudo-scientific principles to the magic, so it's kind of a mix.  Also, what is alternate history type stuff defined as?  It could be a 'fantasy' of a different world or you could say that it's based on pseudo-scientific ideas of 'parallel dimensions'.
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cuchlann

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« Reply #47 on: 19 Jan 2006, 12:43 »

paper beats rock: yeah, you're right about all that.  With defining all those different kinds of story, my opinion's always been that we just need more words.  It irritates me that the word "romance" has been adopted by the modern gothic love story genre, really, because in its original sense it works very well for the traditional "fantasy," freeing that term for the general "sci-fi/fantasy/everything else" we need a catch-all term for.  "Speculative Fiction" is often used to describe both groups, and the historical fictions could probably fit in there - some of them, anyway.  I think the phrase "alternate history" might be functioning as a name for that genre, actually, though it's a bit clumsy.  

Pratchett's habit of using differing terminology doesn't break his internal consistency, because in a few of the books he's set up a parallel dimension theme - particularly when Rincewind accidentally shows up on a jet plane in our reality.  Also, he's doing satire with the Discworld books, so there's a little freedom to call attention to assumptions on both sides.
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Paper Beats Rock

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« Reply #48 on: 19 Jan 2006, 12:50 »

I wasn't saying that Pratchett doesn't have internal consistency, I was just pointing out that his version of magic is more like an alternate science, particularly all the stuff about splitting the thaum, theoretical magicians, etc.  Was it ACC who said that quote about how any technology that is sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic?

Bringing it back on-subject slightly, you could kinda say that the government of Anhk Morpork is almost dystopian, which brings up a strange point.  Most people consider dystopian literature as purely SF but could certain kinds of fantasy be considered dystopian?

As for needing more words, I think you're right.  Once we have more words ideas become easier to express and pass on, then it becomes easier to come up with new ideas.
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cuchlann

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« Reply #49 on: 19 Jan 2006, 23:01 »

Yeah, Ankh-Morpork would be absolutely dystopian, except no one seems to mind the control they're under - after all, the Patrician doesn't bother squelching philosophy, wizardry, and the like; no one's interested enough.   And I think the magic's different depending on which character's the protagonist.  It's very scientific when the wizards are around, but the witches run on intuition and "headology," widely considered to be a pseudo-science.  Heh.

I think the same themes could easily be explored in fantasy - but dystopian fiction is usually a kind of warning: "we could be like this."  As most fantasies that fit the public view of the word are in a world similar to our past, it's difficult to use that as a warning of things to come.  I think it could be done, though, and probably has been.  

One could consider Imryyr, the homeland of Elric, as a fantastic dystopia.  It's an island nation of "higher" people that once had mastery of magic, dragons, and demons.  Their power turns their eyes away from the outside world, and they turn to corrupt perversity - eventually they fall into ennui, bored by their desperate attempts to please themselves.  That kind of city, country, or whatever has been an element of fiction for a while, I think, so it's not a sure-fire example.

I guess the Lord of the Rings shows the audience a dystopia - Isengard and Mordor - so two, actually.  They're defeated, but are very real, very strong, and perpetually threatening.  Given Tolkien's well-publicized distaste for industry, those could represent a dystopian future we ought to avoid.  

I suppose, really, the thing about dystopia in fantasy would be that fantasy, drawing on the traditional myth sense of the hero completing a task (they might not survive, but they finish what they started, as the entire adventure can just be seen as a metaphor for the struggle inherent in any endeavor), horrible worlds are either averted, brought down, or escaped from.

The evil empires in science-romances (re: Star Wars) are likely candidates for dystopias, as well.  

And having terms for things usually does foster a growth in ideas.  It also makes the subject sound more legit.
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