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[Johnny C]

Riot Grrl is awesome though. I don't think Khar was talking about Riot Grrl. He meant bands like Propagandhi.

By the way, the Canadian punk movement has sucked completely for a long time. We decided we like screaming and guitars that sound like tin.

[Rocinante]

Have you listened to Faraquet?

No, but I'll cautiously pursue them now, I'm always open to new music suggestions.

Also, as a note, not all metal sucks. That's a uh, pretty close-minded thing to say.

[Rocinante]

In the same way that it's close-minded to say all bands without a Dungeons and Dragons theme suck?

Funny that.

Well, those bands DO deserve a bit of a wake up call. 

[Ernest]

By the way, the Canadian punk movement has sucked completely for a long time. We decided we like screaming and guitars that sound like tin.

I'm pretty sure there isn't much of a Canadian punk movement (correct me if I'm wrong), but there is a burgeoning Canadian hardcore scene.

[Ernest]

No, sorry, that was just incoherent. I made more sense and I was massively drunk.

True, but you're ignoring the fact that 90% of metal is made by people who have no lives and sit at home learning to play their instruments really fast, then proclaim themselves virtuosos. 

[Ernest]

". . . if you want to learn an instrument, the best way to do it is to force yourself into a situation with other people, as opposed to waiting till you've honed your craft on your own to do something." - Guy Picciotto

[Johnny C]

Ah, the Sid Vicious approach.

[KharBevNor]

True, but you're ignoring the fact that 90% of metal is made by people who have no lives and sit at home learning to play their instruments really fast, then proclaim themselves virtuosos. 

You really have no clue.

No seriously.

I don't understand pretty much every critique of metal I've heard. I mean, for example, Thorpe mentions a grand total of four metal bands, two of which suck and two of which are, fair enough, easily reduced to risibility, although I'll still defend Maiden quite a bit. It's basically, I think, the fact that these critiques are based on not just ignorance, but willfull ignorance, not to mention that they are fuelled by sensibilities and aesthetics which I find quite incomprehensible, which their owners regard as somehow a sign of good breeding and maturity. 'Cool' and 'irony' and fuck knows what else. I've listened to so much indie rock. I've downloaded recommendations here, I've done mix swaps, forced listening etc. both here and on a last.fm group dominated by hipsters, and, out of my huge experience of music, 3,000+ bands, I honestly have to say that 99% of what I've heard sucks. Occasionally, I come across something that doesn't make me want to turn it off after two minutes. I listen to Neutral Milk Hotel and Patrick Wolf quite often, Red House Painters not but once in a blue moon British Sea Power and (some) Cat Power when the mood takes me. But the rest of it I've heard is pretty shit. Remember I'm not just talking from the position of someone who likes metal. I like huge amounts of music across a very wide range of genres. I like bands, to respond to that very pathetic little barb, with black people and women in them. And I just don't think that most of this indie shit really has anything to it. It seams so lacking in susbtance, so listless, so boring, so pretentious and un-fun and just...ghastly. A musical culture produced by a people who have a mindset that will bash metal bands for wearing ridiculous outfits or for being emotionally immature, and then ejaculate over bands like Devo and Tullycraft. It's just crap, but people can't get enough of it. Because its cool. I don't even want to fucking count how many times I've seen people round here, or elsewhere saying something along the lines of "I didn't like this record at first, but I forced myself to listen to it eight or so times and its starting to get good" WHY? I seriously don't get this shit. I was on youtube a few weeks ago and I thought that I'd check out Fugazi. I'll overlook the fact that they looked like primary school teachers for a second. Yeah, they rocked occasionally, I could even get into the groove now and then. Songwriting was bad, structure lousy and singing was awful. Lyrics were...well, rather cliche metal/punk fare actually. Riffs were average, drumming was slightly more interesting than your four to the floor etc. etc. It was easily tolerable, some okay rock and roll. Then I looked down at the first comment: 'most amazing thing i've seen in my entire life!'

And then I realised I had a 23 Skidoo album that needed listening to. I just don't see what the fucking fuss is about, and all these people jerking off left and right about mediocre people playing mediocre music about mediocre things, half if not all of them ripping off better bands from the past, just, well, it pisses me off. And then these people turn around and go "OMG METAL, UH! SO UNCOOL! LETS GO DRINK SOME FUCKING STARBUCKS." Whatever. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. I'm going to listen to some Amon Amarth and have more fun than you've ever imagined having you boring little fashionista tossers. Etc. etc. Blah blah. And so on it goes forth. The problem with this shit is however reasonable I want to start I'm always fucking angry and insulting everyone but my own mother by the end. Dunno why. It's probably because you suck. But I love my mum.

Ach, whatever, fuck it to be honest. The only person you do a disservice to

[Ernest]

I don't have a problem with all metal.  I like Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Annihilator, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax and Pantera (sometimes), but I absolutely hate death/black metal.  I fucking hate it.  You have no idea.  Talk about listless.  The music is so uncohesive.  It just sounds like everyone is just doing his own thing.  You know?  Like, the guitarist just discovered this riff and the drummer decides that he'll play some blast beats behind it.  The guitar riffs are all so damn boring.  I swear to god, does this guy really think I want to hear some mindless drop D (or whatever, I don't know fucking music theory) riff, even if it is played in 123/42 time?

Whatever, we like different music, and for the most part dislike each other's tastes.  I guess this is just the way it's going to be.

Hmmm. . .  I guess I enjoy thrash metal to an extent.

[Johnny C]

The problem with this shit is however reasonable I want to start I'm always fucking angry and insulting everyone but my own mother by the end. Dunno why. It's probably because you suck. But I love my mum.

Besides the fact that you wrote some comedy gold right there (for serious, I started just laughing!) you have a point. It's a shame that you get so upset and start making equally broad generalizations about indie because frankly Pavement is quite a different band than The Go! Team, who are different from Low, who are different from Despistado.

Metal is a really broad and diverse genre, and a lot of it doesn't actually have to do with Dungeons and Dragons. A lot of the metal-maligning done on this board crosses the line from tongue-in-cheek to near-abuse. I'm not even a big metal fan and I don't appreciate it. What does being an insular ass accomplish? Nothing.

Don't be a dick, everyone.

[Ernest]

Are you trying to be ironic by telling us not go make generalizations and then ending your post with one? 

Please don't try to be a peacemaker here. 

[Johnny C]

I'm not trying to be a peacemaker. In case you couldn't tell I get pissed off when anybody makes any generalization about any kind of music and I strive to never do it. I also wasn't aware that "don't be a dick, everyone" was a generalization. I figured it was just a piece of general advice. There are quite a lot of people on this forum who fall quite firmly into the "not a dick" category and even some who I would classify as "never a dick."

This isn't an effort to bridge the well-documented schism between Khar and Tommy, it's just a statement which should clarify the difference between effective music evalutation & discourse and being an ignoramus. Note that I did not at any point single you out. However, I am now singling you out and asking a couple of questions.

Can you provide me with one single reason to purposely be an arse on a forum in which you can, at will, revise and edit your statements even before you make them? If you can, might I ask how that would possibly promote discussion rather than argument?

[Ernest]

Why would you tell us not to be dicks if you didn't think that some of us were being dicks?  "Not being a dick" generally goes without saying.

As to your question, I don't think I'm being an ass, unless you want to count the generalization I made earlier about metal, which was merely a response to Khar making sweeping, unfounded generalizations about punk and indie music. 

I think you're being a bit idealistic by distinguishing "argument" from "discussion."  I prefer to call them "shitslinging" and "mumbling," respectively.  That way it's easier to make the distinction, since it's two extremes.

[ZeNbRaIn]

I have to agree with KharBevNor, theres something about the disdain for heavy metal amongst indie kids that just grates, no-one i know and respect in terms of their musical taste hates metal. That isn't to say that they all like it, but no one with any level of tolerance or intelligence can truly dimiss such a huge swathe of popular music. I used to be prejudiced against metal - when i was 14. Then i grew up and started enjoying metal, indie, classic rock, pop, hip hop, drum and bass, trance, electronica, grunge, punk, industrial, and many bands that straddle several genres for what they are, various forms of art and entertainment written with a variety of emotional states, personal histories and aesthetic preferences in mind. If you don't like metal that's fine, maybe you don't enjoy aggressive music, fast music, non-melodic vocals, or any of the other aspects present in some metal bands but don't judge others for enjoying something you simply fail to understand. To return to the topic however, these are the supposed classic bands i've never been able to enjoy,


Judas Priest
The Rolling Stones
Anything Radiohead did after OK Computer
Pink Floyd
The Beatles
Almost all hardcore punk, Happy Hardcore, House, Nu-Skool Breaks and Psy-Trance

This doesn't mean they are bad, this doesn't mean i don't understand their appeal to others but i've never been able to connect to these bands/genres myself even after repeated exposure.

Gentlemen, commence your flaming.

[Johnny C]

Flaming Ostrich: Khar knows full well that I and the rest of the forums do not appreciate his shitting all over indie as well. Mud can be thrown from both sides.

For the rest of it, I steadfastly disagree with pretty much all of your post but a publicly-readable forum isn't the appropriate place to debate this. Instead I'll just reiterate for the last time that the "not being a dick" which generally goes without saying was not directed specifically, solely and precisely towards you, so in the future rather than taking it personally please PM me and we can have this discussion privately and maturely.


Zenguy: You did it right.

[KharBevNor]

Metal is a really broad and diverse genre, and a lot of it doesn't actually have to do with Dungeons and Dragons.

I have a vague feeling that I wanted to devote a significant portion of my post to that fact, but I got waylaid somewhere. Whatever. I am listening to the whole Ancient Rites (one of the many bands I'm sure you aren't taking in to account in your 'critique' of death/black metal, which are entirely different genres and...I'll shit up). Also, I just found out we have loads of little cans of pre-mixed gin and tonics in the fridge! Joy.

Also, I'm not making generalisations about punk music. I'm making generalisations about punk music as typified by the output of the united states in the 90's. To be fair, it is singling things out a bit, as barely anything interesting happened to punk in the 90's anywhere. In fact, to be honest, probably a lot more interesting things happened with punk in the states in the 90's. I mean, Riot Grrl (for some reason I ALWAYS overlook Riot Grrl when I think about punk in general, I guess I consider it something a bit seperate) and the Crack Rock Steady Seven alone kinda make everything okay. The real problem is America also produced SO MUCH SHIT PUNK in the 90's. I mean goodness. All that happened in the UK in the nineties, punk wise, was Poly Styrene popping out the skirting board to record another X-Ray Spex album and New Model Army buying new clogs.

[Ernest]

Fair enough, Johnny.

@ZeNbRaIn- Maybe if you'd read my post you'd realize that I don't hate all metal.  Also, your stance about how we should all mature and become ecclectic is made laughable by the fact that you say you dislike almost all hardcore punk.

[Ernest]

Khar, I don't even know where to start there.  You say that America produced a lot of shit punk in the 90s (which it did).  Well, no shit.  There's a lot of shitty metal out there, too.  Are you at least willing to acknowledge that?

Also, I think I should say that I wouldn't have said jack shit about metal in this topic had you not starting the mudslinging.  Yeah, I know I'm largely ignorant about death and black metal.  I know that they both incorporate lots of blast beats, which, as a drummer, I fucking hate.  I dislike that music. 

Whatever, I guess we can just shit on each other for awhile.  At least it's internet shit.

[KharBevNor]

You know, I was going to retort, but I suspect all my favourite examples of drumming have what you'd call blastbeats. I just don't see how you can rag on drumming as tight as this or this or even this (yes, Arcturus aren't really black or death metal, but this is the best thing I can find on youtube with Hellhammer on the sticks). Actually, this is is probably, exactly the stuff you hate, but whatever. Back to the hipster/indie thing, this is why I always start laughing when people go ape-shit about Deerhoofs drummer.

[Ernest]

I don't really like Deerhoof.  I find them pretty boring, though when I'm drunk I like to make fun of them. 

I'm not denying the skill of blast beat drummers, I just don't like blast beats.  Oh man, I just listened to as much as I could bear of that Decapitated song, and I just don't understand how you can like those vocals.

[ZeNbRaIn]

I didn't say or mean to imply that we should all listen to or even like the same music, i don't enjoy listening to the majority of hardcore punk, if you do then fair enough and i'm sure you enjoy your collection of music as much if not more than anyone else. I just resent the idea that you can label any particular style of music as inherently good or bad, no matter how weird, abrasive, outright dumb it might be somewhere in the world someone listened to it and it made them smile, or at least served as a form of catharsis for any negative emotions they may have been feeling. Music is far too important, far too life affirming for anyone to be able to justify attacking a particular aspect of it. I'm just trying to be good humoured for christs sake, trying to make a nice, sensible, pleasant point about the nature of music and then immediately i get attacked. And just as i write this, Flaming Ostrich summed it up. You don't understand how KarBevNor can enjoy those vocals. THATS FINE. Khar still likes them! You can't make him stop liking them! You don't have to listen to it! Whats the problem!?

[Thrillho]

I would suggest that the problem is that Khar was on the sauce the other night and so made some uncharacteristically boneheaded sweeping statements which have opened a can of worms.

[KharBevNor]

Aye. To be frank, it's good that I didn't have internet access in my room over the last two weeks, otherwise the forum would be nothing more than a smoking crater and a looping wind sound effect.

[Thrillho]

Sounds like your latest musical project.

ZING.

I'm kidding.

[KharBevNor]

Dude, I am doing it.

The moment I can work out how to smoke a crater.

As in induce a meteorite to crash into a field of dope and huff the results.

[Ernest]

. . .to smoke a crater.

The sequel to To Kill A Mockingbird.

[Storm Rider]

At the risk of igniting further... 'discussion', I'm going to give my two cents on the Thorpe article.

I'll preface this by saying that I read Your Band Sucks all the time and enjoy it a lot, and if you get offended by it you're missing the entire point of the column. However, I really feel that this offering was pretty half-assed. The funny thing about Thorpe is that he's inventive. He comes up with new ways to tear down the idols, so to speak. With this article, he basically just took the standard hipster dismissals of the metal genre and hammered them into his framework. Generally, you hear syncophants parroting his statements (I must have read the damn homeless-kid-with-a-two-string-guitar comment on prog rock nearly a hundred times), but instead, it was the other way around. Not to mention the examples he picked were ridiculous. Yes, Metallica and Pantera are pretty terrible, and yes, they are two of the most well known metal bands. However, mainstream metal is a lot like all of mainstream music in that the vast majority of it is utter shit marketed to the lowest common denominator; in this case, drunken frat boys who totally fight the machine, man. Judging metal by Pantera and Metallica is like judging all of rock music by Coldplay and My Chemical Romance. It's unfair, shallow, and ridiculous. I know that Thorpe was doing it all in jest, and used those two bands as sacrificial lambs for the sake of humor, but some people love to use his words as justification for being pretentious jackasses rather than just appreciating his work for being funny.

I'll admit that there will more than likely be some pretty hilarious user mail after this one, though.

Anyway, I agree with what Johnny said in that music is subjective and people should not be jerks about it! I honestly can't understand the appeal of 90% of what the 'indie' people of this board enjoy, but if I don't have anything constructive to say in the thread, I stay the fuck out of it. I loathe Belle and Sebastian, but rather than going into that thread, shitting all over it, and ruining it for everyone else, I kept the opinion to myself and instead stuck to discussing music I enjoy with other people that like it. It's really not that difficult.

In short, Flaming Ostrich, I'm sorry to single you out, but I think the general consensus right now is that you're being a dick, so try and tone it down a bit and we'll hopefully have these kinds of posts a little less often, OK?

[Ernest]

In order to fight a dick, one must become a dick.  It's kind of a fire vs. fire sort of arrangement.  I am sorry my friends. 

[camelpimp]

Hm, true, I do love Your Band Sucks but metal was... just too easy, I guess. *shrug*

And Flaming Ostrich, who was being the dick?

[Johnny C]

(I must have read the damn homeless-kid-with-a-two-string-guitar comment on prog rock nearly a hundred times)

heh. um.

[KharBevNor]

Right, this seems resolved. And a good thing too, because I've been drinking rum.

And gin.

and vodka.

And beer, come to that.

Hot damn I love christmas!

[Storm Rider]

(I must have read the damn homeless-kid-with-a-two-string-guitar comment on prog rock nearly a hundred times)

heh. um.

Don't worry Johnny, it's nothing against you. But I'm kind of sick of hearing that phrase now. Especially when it's so blatantly incorrect.

[KharBevNor]

Yeah you need at least four string s to destroy every prog band in history everyone knows that.

[valley_parade]

Right, this seems resolved. And a good thing too, because I've been drinking rum.

And gin.

and vodka.

And beer, come to that.

Hot damn I love christmas!

Happy boozeday, buddy.

[camelpimp]

Yeah you need at least four string s to destroy every prog band in history everyone knows that.

Well, if you're economcial, you can just use one string to kill all the prog bands in history, but you're better off doing it with firearms I think. Or time, but that's boring.

[KharBevNor]

Happy boozeday, buddy.

It was all sitting on top of the fridge.

It looked so sad.

[valley_parade]

I'd do the same thing, except the top of my fridge has naught but an empty cookie jar. Ever try drinking one of those? Hoo boy.

[camelpimp]

Do you have a blender?

[Ernest]

And Flaming Ostrich, who was being the dick?

Me and Khar.

[Hat]

Do you have a blender?

I don't understand this. Are you saying Khar should blend all his booze together, or that ValleyParade should blend an empty cookie jar

I say this because I am not sure which would be the least painful.

[camelpimp]

I was going to say empty cookie jar (I mean, if enough force was used, you could liquify it, right?) but the first option might be more entertaining.

[Hat]

It would actually powderize.

You must understand that I am kind of an expert on blending things. My dream as a youth was to get a job doing those "Will it blend" commercials, but alas, they are bastards.

[camelpimp]

Then you could put the powder in water! Voila!

[David_Dovey]

This thread has taken a most pleasant turn

[a pack of wolves]

All that happened in the UK in the nineties, punk wise, was Poly Styrene popping out the skirting board to record another X-Ray Spex album and New Model Army buying new clogs.

We inflicted Skimmer on the world in the nineties. We've got our war crimes just like everybody else.

[Ernest]

I really was not aware of a war.

[The Eyeball Kid]

True, but you're ignoring the fact that 90% of metal is made by people who have no lives and sit at home learning to play their instruments really fast, then proclaim themselves virtuosos. 

You really have no clue.

No seriously.

I don't understand pretty much every critique of metal I've heard. I mean, for example, Thorpe mentions a grand total of four metal bands, two of which suck and two of which are, fair enough, easily reduced to risibility, although I'll still defend Maiden quite a bit. It's basically, I think, the fact that these critiques are based on not just ignorance, but willfull ignorance, not to mention that they are fuelled by sensibilities and aesthetics which I find quite incomprehensible, which their owners regard as somehow a sign of good breeding and maturity. 'Cool' and 'irony' and fuck knows what else. I've listened to so much indie rock. I've downloaded recommendations here, I've done mix swaps, forced listening etc. both here and on a last.fm group dominated by hipsters, and, out of my huge experience of music, 3,000+ bands, I honestly have to say that 99% of what I've heard sucks. Occasionally, I come across something that doesn't make me want to turn it off after two minutes. I listen to Neutral Milk Hotel and Patrick Wolf quite often, Red House Painters not but once in a blue moon British Sea Power and (some) Cat Power when the mood takes me. But the rest of it I've heard is pretty shit. Remember I'm not just talking from the position of someone who likes metal. I like huge amounts of music across a very wide range of genres. I like bands, to respond to that very pathetic little barb, with black people and women in them. And I just don't think that most of this indie shit really has anything to it. It seams so lacking in susbtance, so listless, so boring, so pretentious and un-fun and just...ghastly. A musical culture produced by a people who have a mindset that will bash metal bands for wearing ridiculous outfits or for being emotionally immature, and then ejaculate over bands like Devo and Tullycraft. It's just crap, but people can't get enough of it. Because its cool. I don't even want to fucking count how many times I've seen people round here, or elsewhere saying something along the lines of "I didn't like this record at first, but I forced myself to listen to it eight or so times and its starting to get good" WHY? I seriously don't get this shit. I was on youtube a few weeks ago and I thought that I'd check out Fugazi. I'll overlook the fact that they looked like primary school teachers for a second. Yeah, they rocked occasionally, I could even get into the groove now and then. Songwriting was bad, structure lousy and singing was awful. Lyrics were...well, rather cliche metal/punk fare actually. Riffs were average, drumming was slightly more interesting than your four to the floor etc. etc. It was easily tolerable, some okay rock and roll. Then I looked down at the first comment: 'most amazing thing i've seen in my entire life!'

And then I realised I had a 23 Skidoo album that needed listening to. I just don't see what the fucking fuss is about, and all these people jerking off left and right about mediocre people playing mediocre music about mediocre things, half if not all of them ripping off better bands from the past, just, well, it pisses me off. And then these people turn around and go "OMG METAL, UH! SO UNCOOL! LETS GO DRINK SOME FUCKING STARBUCKS." Whatever. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. I'm going to listen to some Amon Amarth and have more fun than you've ever imagined having you boring little fashionista tossers. Etc. etc. Blah blah. And so on it goes forth. The problem with this shit is however reasonable I want to start I'm always fucking angry and insulting everyone but my own mother by the end. Dunno why. It's probably because you suck. But I love my mum.

Ach, whatever, fuck it to be honest. The only person you do a disservice to

There's a quote from either Craig Finn of The Hold Steady or John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats about how the worst metal guitarist is probably a better musican then most indie muscians.
I'm an indie kid, but i'm just throwing out that two of my fave 'indie' musicians are HUGE metalheads. Like 'write a 30 poem cycle about Drastus' metalheads

[David_Dovey]

Name names, Eyeballs.

EDIT: Or were you talking about Finn and Darnielle? Sorry, I'm not quite sure if that's who you meant...

[KharBevNor]

TRhe  mountain gotas guy wrote that drastus thing. It's very amusing in palces.

[ScrambledGregs]

There's a quote from either Craig Finn of The Hold Steady or John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats about how the worst metal guitarist is probably a better musican then most indie muscians.
I'm an indie kid, but i'm just throwing out that two of my fave 'indie' musicians are HUGE metalheads. Like 'write a 30 poem cycle about Drastus' metalheads

True, but most of my favorite musicians like some bands I consider awful. And since when does being a virtuoso make you good?? The only people I want to be amazing at their instruments are jazz musicians.