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[casull]

I've been thinking about finally buying an electric guitar. It's been at the bottom of a long list of instruments to buy for several years, which I have now worked through. (5-string violin, woot)

 My budget is 800-1k for a guitar and amp. Metal is the name of the game, I don't really need versatility, though it's not forbidden. I've been looking at some Schecters and SGs, but I don't really know what I'm looking for, especially regarding amps.

[MadassAlex]

Did someone say metal?

You want an ESP or an Ibanez, try those out. Both are excellent, although Ibanez have a better neck for lead play but have passive pickups as opposed to the active EMGs on most ESP Ltd models. Try for the higher end of ESP Ltds with mahogany bodies, but then I just do not like agathis as a wood for guitars.
SO

Either go for an Ibanez RG, RGT or RG Prestige (if you want to spend the money!) Basswood and DiMarzio pickups at a higher end, although Ibanez's own Infinity pickups aren't that bad for the RGT models, although consider replacement pickups if you go for a normal RG and want to peform with it.
Or an ESP Ltd whatever. Most ESP Ltds have EMG pickups and are made of mahogany at the high end (around your budget) and are generally very nice. Can I reccomend the F, V and M series models? If you want some good whammy wankage, the M series will do you good, as the F and V series use a very conventional bridge, i.e no tremolo arm.

[casull]

I've been asking at some other forums as well... I'm looking at either a schecter c-1 classic or hellraiser, but i'm less sure about an amp. 200-500ish, tube preamp preferred. ideas?

[MadassAlex]

I personally like Line 6 Spider amps, Spider II and Spider III amps are worth a look.

[valley_parade]

I'm gonna second ESP. Personally, for metal I love a V shape. I think your best bet would probably be either a V-200 (like a Jackson King V) or the Alexi-200 (Alexi Laiho signature model with 1 EMG designed humbucker and a Floyd Rose trem. Shape's more like a Rhodes model). You should be able to get either for about $450.

How big of an amp do you want? You can get some decent solid-state combos for $300-500, and both Marshall and Fender have solid-state half-stacks in the $550-600 range that top out around 100 watts.

[Lummer]

How big of an amp do you want? You can get some decent solid-state combos for $300-500, and both Marshall and Fender have solid-state half-stacks in the $550-600 range that top out around 100 watts.

Well, yeah...

But they are a 100 watts of fart-in-a-tin-can.
Solid state amps are useless for pretty much anything, and that's a fact. Seriously.

Take a look at the second hand market, or eBay. You might be able to snag an ENGL or something similar at a fair price. I personally have a Laney GH50L, which is a very cool, awesome-sounding all-tube head at a very decent price.
Don't think too hard about watts, either. If the amp is all tube, it WILL be loud as fuck, even at 35 watts, like my guitarist bandmate's ENGL rack-head.

So yeah, in terms of the head: Tubes, tubes, tubes!!
There are a lot of cool brands out there to check out. Marshall JCM's are also easy to come by, but not as "metal" as so many other amps. Unless you fiddle with a booster pedal, to kick in some more gain.
otherwise: Go for Peavey (avoid the Valveking though), Laney, ENGL or Koch.
Just make sure it has tubes in the pre- as well as the poweramp, and you'll be fine.

About cabs:
Marshall cabs are cheap, easy to come by and pretty good. They are not insanely awesome like Mesa or ENGL cabs, but they're more than decent. A standard 1960 cabinet will do just fine.
But, in terms of the cab, anything with a closed back and Celestion Vintage 30's will kick serious ass.

It can be said though, that if you're not in a band and just practice at home, a Line 6 POD will be a much better idea. That little thing has some awesome sounds in it, even though it's all digital. You can hook it up to a stereo or some headphones and get pretty cool results.

[valley_parade]

How big of an amp do you want? You can get some decent solid-state combos for $300-500, and both Marshall and Fender have solid-state half-stacks in the $550-600 range that top out around 100 watts.

Well, yeah...

But they are a 100 watts of fart-in-a-tin-can.
Solid state amps are useless for pretty much anything, and that's a fact. Seriously.

Take that one up with Dime.

[Lummer]

How big of an amp do you want? You can get some decent solid-state combos for $300-500, and both Marshall and Fender have solid-state half-stacks in the $550-600 range that top out around 100 watts.

Well, yeah...

But they are a 100 watts of fart-in-a-tin-can.
Solid state amps are useless for pretty much anything, and that's a fact. Seriously.

Take that one up with Dime.

Yes and no. He ended up using tube amps in the end anyway.
Nevertheless, solid state amps have a "quicker" sound, if that's how you can say it.
A lot of metal guitarists used to go with solid states a few years ago, because they were supposedly less muddy. IMO that doesn't hold that much water, because it's just a matter of adjusting the amp settings properly, and not using too much gain.

Yes, that term, "too much gain" does in fact exist, and many metal guitarists are guilty of that. Solid state amps could handle extreme amounts of gain better back in the early nineties, but modern tube amps have gone a long in way in getting that problem solved. That's why Dime switched to Krank, and could probably just as easily have switched to an ENGL Powerball or a Framus Dragon.
They still do sound muddy if you crank he gain too much, but you don't do that, do you?!

The secret to a fuckin' heavy sound does NOT, I repeat, NOT in a way lie in cranking the gain. It lies in the riffs itself, and the playing. High amounts of gain are great, but it should not become excessive, otherwise you end up sounding like.. Well... Pretty any deathmetal record put out in the early 90s.

In terms of avoiding mud, the Presence knob of you amp is your friend!

Yes, solid state amps can avoid the mud more easily, but with that tiny bit of clarity comes a shrill and cold sound at worst and a bland, boring sound at best.
It also has next to zero dynamics, so it is only good for people for people who play full throttle all the time. If you want any kind of dynamics, and responsiveness to your pick attack, solid states are a no-go.

I don't know who said this, but it sums it up pretty well:

"The solid state amplifies your instrument, the tube amp IS an instrument".

That said, tube amps require more maintenance and care, and can break down if not handled properly. Solid states just work all the time, and don't have any kind of difference in tone from day to day.

[MadassAlex]

The secret to a fuckin' heavy sound does NOT, I repeat, NOT in a way lie in cranking the gain. It lies in the riffs itself, and the playing. High amounts of gain are great, but it should not become excessive, otherwise you end up sounding like.. Well... Pretty any deathmetal record put out in the early 90s.

Chuck Schuldiner is going to get up out of his grave and kick your ass. >: |

[Tartar Martyr]

I would spend most of your money on a nice amp and just buy a cheap-o guitar with a decent neck.  A good amp will improve the sound of a crappy guitar a lot more than a nice guitar will improve the sound of a crappy amp.

I don't know too much about the amps and guitars favored by metal players (I personally play fender guitars through an old Silverface Fender Deluxe Reverb... at least until I can save up for one of the old Orange OD heads), but you definitely want to go with tubes for the sort of money you have to spend.  Just go to a Guitar Center (I hate that store, but the big ones generally have a decent selection of tube amps).  I really wish I could make a brand recomendation... but I hate the way Mesa's sound, and the new Marshall's are just sort of *bleh* when compared with the Super Leads and JCM800's, and Fenders are probably too "faggy" for metal players (just wait until I crank the fuzz and reverb though ).

Just go early on a weekday and wank around with stuff until you find something you like.

I know a lot of guys that like Schecter guitars a lot.  I am not a fan of their sound because I hate humbuckers (which are the name of the game for metal players), but they feel nice.  Ibanez probably makes the best low dollar guitars around though, so I would recommend dropping ~200 on an Ibanez that feels nice, and using the rest on an amp.

[MadassAlex]

Anyone who thinks that Fenders are too faggy for metal are complete morons. Iron Maiden for example use Fenders and... well, just Fenders these days.

[Tartar Martyr]

Anyone who thinks that Fenders are too faggy for metal are complete morons. Iron Maiden for example use Fenders and... well, just Fenders these days.

Fender Amps for Metal?  Anyone who uses a Fender Amp for metal is a moron.

[MadassAlex]

Anyone who thinks that Fenders are too faggy for metal are complete morons. Iron Maiden for example use Fenders and... well, just Fenders these days.

Fender Amps for Metal?  Anyone who uses a Fender Amp for metal is a moron.

Talking about guitars here. : )

Also I've never used a Fender amp but they just seem faggy in general. Most companies make amps suitable for metal, though, although Line 6 and Marshall tend to top these.

[casull]

Whoa, I see that I've gotten responses, my bad for not checking back up on this sooner.

I'm not really interested in a really cheap guitar. I might pick up a schecter like what I'm looking at for 3-400ish on ebay and have someone local set it up, but that's about as cheap as I'd go. I plan on going to guitar center when I get a free day and going down the line trying amps. I'm thinking about buying a line6 pod right now, just to hold me over, and to give me a better idea of what sounds I'm looking for.

[godinpants]

Anyone who thinks that Fenders are too faggy for metal are complete morons. Iron Maiden for example use Fenders and... well, just Fenders these days.

Fender Amps for Metal?  Anyone who uses a Fender Amp for metal is a moron.

However they do make the most awesome amps if you are into playing surf rock.

[valley_parade]

Anyone who thinks that Fenders are too faggy for metal are complete morons. Iron Maiden for example use Fenders and... well, just Fenders these days.

Fender Amps for Metal?  Anyone who uses a Fender Amp for metal is a moron.

They uh. They came out with some sort of high-ass gain head last year called the "Metalhead". At least they're trying.

I'm a Fender guy, so I can't really say anything bad, except that I wish they'd make a hardtail MIM Strat that isn't a Robert Cray signature model.

[Lummer]

The secret to a fuckin' heavy sound does NOT, I repeat, NOT in a way lie in cranking the gain. It lies in the riffs itself, and the playing. High amounts of gain are great, but it should not become excessive, otherwise you end up sounding like.. Well... Pretty any deathmetal record put out in the early 90s.

Chuck Schuldiner is going to get up out of his grave and kick your ass. >: |

I didn't say "every"
But that said, a lot of records from that time have some seriously muddy guitar sound. Take for instance Suffocation's "Effigy Of The Forgotten"..

Awesomely kick-ass album, but a clearer and more defined sound would suit the complex riffing a lot better than the production it has.
On Death's "Human" and "Individual Thought Patterns", it does fit well in some weird way.

Death is, was and will always be supremely awesome. Such is the law.

And Btw: The ol' "Iron Maiden use fenders"-argument only holds water half way. They sure as hell aren't playing standard strats!


And to the thread starter:

If you don't play in a serious band, and just practice at home, then don't even bother with the amp and buy a POD Xt instead.
Then buy yourself a seriously awesome Ibanez, preferably a seven-string , and a cheaper guitar to have around as a backup, and to experiment with.
Then set some money aside and save up for a Mesa or something other insanely awesome, for when you get in a band. Bedroom guitarists have no use for a half-stack, and they can't even put it to full use, even if they have one.

So get the POD, I say.

[MadassAlex]

I didn't say "every"
But that said, a lot of records from that time have some seriously muddy guitar sound. Take for instance Suffocation's "Effigy Of The Forgotten"..

Awesomely kick-ass album, but a clearer and more defined sound would suit the complex riffing a lot better than the production it has.
On Death's "Human" and "Individual Thought Patterns", it does fit well in some weird way.

Death is, was and will always be supremely awesome. Such is the law.

And Btw: The ol' "Iron Maiden use fenders"-argument only holds water half way. They sure as hell aren't playing standard strats!

True that. Plus they've been known to use Ibanez and Gibson guitars in the past. But still, alder isn't particuarly bad for metal and some new pickups will turn a blues machine into a metal warrior.

And to the thread starter:

If you don't play in a serious band, and just practice at home, then don't even bother with the amp and buy a POD Xt instead.
Then buy yourself a seriously awesome Ibanez, preferably a seven-string , and a cheaper guitar to have around as a backup, and to experiment with.

I'll just say that I find Ibanez to be the most playable guitars ever in the history of rocking the fuck out so I support this. Although their 6 string guitars are still serial awesome. Even a midrange (I guess RG tremolo series and up) makes a good professional guitar once you've got some new pickups and a more stable bridge in there.
Schecter are a lot like Ibanez, but without the awesome necks, basically. I think they actually undercharge for their instruments compared to other companies. This is pretty fucking awesome, as Schecters tend to just look nicer than Ibanez guitars IMHO. So let's sum up.

If you're going to do difficult lead playing, Ibanez are probably what you want. Schecter is better if you're not trying to wank like Vai, since you really don't get any use out of the thinner neck and it just looks goddamn nicer.

[Scytale]

I have a shitty beat up second hand Strat that's been through god knows how many previous owners before it reached my hands, the body is dinged and chipped to all hell, it has a completely different neck on it and it's got shitty single coil pickups but I love it to all hell, I guess its what I'm used to playing it just feels right in my hands.  I've played my mates SG and it has a pretty nice fat neck on it but I dunno I wasn't a fan of the shape and the way it felt if that makes sense. Another mate had a BC Rich Warlock and that was a pretty sweet guitar, it's inexpensive and decent enough for my liking but he sold it and got a Les Paul, which I'm not such a fan off...

As far as guitar tone in metal goes I like it to be fairly trebley and muffled with basically no mid-range in it and a fair amount of Re-verb, too me that gives it that really hypnotic sort of quality, Summoning's "Oath Bound" is probably the best modern example of the guitar tone I can think off, it really suits the slow repetitive "Arpeggio" style of playing they use on that album, I remember reading in an interview that Protector used some sort of Computerized Amp Simulation software to get the tone right.

Of course if you're going to be playing something technical fast with lots of solo's it's probably not the right tone to be aiming for, all depends on what mood you want to give the guitars.

[Lummer]

True that. Plus they've been known to use Ibanez and Gibson guitars in the past. But still, alder isn't particuarly bad for metal and some new pickups will turn a blues machine into a metal warrior.

True, but still strats don't seem to have that vibe that makes me want to shred the fuck on out, but that's mostly due to the necks. But still, alder and other lighter woods do kicks tremendous amounts of ass, especially if you tune low.

I'll just say that I find Ibanez to be the most playable guitars ever in the history of rocking the fuck out so I support this. Although their 6 string guitars are still serial awesome. Even a midrange (I guess RG tremolo series and up) makes a good professional guitar once you've got some new pickups and a more stable bridge in there.
Schecter are a lot like Ibanez, but without the awesome necks, basically. I think they actually undercharge for their instruments compared to other companies. This is pretty fucking awesome, as Schecters tend to just look nicer than Ibanez guitars IMHO. So let's sum up.

If you're going to do difficult lead playing, Ibanez are probably what you want. Schecter is better if you're not trying to wank like Vai, since you really don't get any use out of the thinner neck and it just looks goddamn nicer.

Again, agreed. I tried schecter's Omen 7 the other day, and I must say I was impressed. Very nice neck, and sound. The tuners weren't that great though.
I ended up buying the Ibanez RG7321 instead, which is AWESOME value for money. However, if you're gonna get one of those, try it out first. I've heard that there are massive fluctuations in quality after they moved the production of this model to Indonesia.
That said, if you see a store that has a 1-2 year old model of this one lyin' around collecting dust; SNATCH IT! You won't be dissappointed. If you can live with the fact that it has no cosmetics whasoever, then it really is awesome for the low, low price.

[jeph]

Ibanez guitars vary a ton in terms of quality. I've played some great ones and I've played a whole lot more shitty awful ones. They improve immensely if you take out the stock pickups and put either Seymour Duncans or EMGs in (depending on your taste). I've played a whole bunch of different ESP-made guitars and they do seem to be more consistently built. The non-cheapo ones come with good pickups pre-installed, which is another bonus. Schecters....ehh. They're okay.

I wouldn't waste my time playing any guitar with a Floyd Rose that isn't a USA-made Jackson or a high-end (not LTD) ESP. They're a pain to set up, a pain to change strings, and you basically have to pick one tuning and commit to it until you get the instrument set up again. And the cheap, licensed Floyds that you find on pretty much any guitar under $1500 are AWFUL.

Buy a good amp before you buy a good guitar. I cannot emphasize this enough. In your price range and genre, I'd say get something Line 6 makes, like a POD or a Spider combo until you've got enough cash to get something with tubes in it that can actually handle some decent distortion. Krank amps are really overpriced and I honestly don't like their tone all that much, from what I've heard. You can get a used JCM800 for less than half the price on eBay, turn it all the way up or use a power brake, and you will have way better tone. If it works for Slayer and Mastodon it works for me (although actually I play MESA amps almost exclusively).

The people claiming you can't play metal through a Fender amp obviously have never used a Fender Twin with a good distortion pedal.

[Coming Home]

I'm partial to Ibanez. I had a friend tell me they were good for metal, and lo and behold, they are. I got mine for $125 and it's great. But yeah, a good amp is really important.

[Tartar Martyr]

The people claiming you can't play metal through a Fender amp obviously have never used a Fender Twin with a good distortion pedal.

I have never heard a pedal that cops a decent metal sound (save the Zoom Hyper Lead perhaps), they either over emphasize harmonics, or just have EQ's that are impossible to work with and make everything you play sound like saturday afternoon at Guitar Center (Hello Boss Metal Zone).  This genre is largely ignored by the boutique builders because of A) preference for amp distortion B) demographic concentration and spending habits of metal players (ie people into boutique effects usually don't play metal).  So your options are limitted to the major production lines (Boss, Line 6, Digitech etc.).  Granted, I don't spend a lot of time looking for this sound because I don't like it, and I rarely listen to metal, I am much more into the fuzz and modulation which the near infinite clean headroom in most Fender tube combos provides the perfect foundation for, but (maybe this is being a tad stereotypical) most of the metal players that I know laugh at everything that isn't an old Marshall, ENGL or Diezel.

If metal is what you want to play, I would either buy a cheap guitar and a nice tube amp, or a decent ($400-500) guitar, and then save for a nice tube amp.  Don't waste time or money on a POD or any of the Line 6 amps, just get a cheap practice amp (the Epiphone Valve Jr. is super fun to take apart and mod if you are into that sort of thing).

That is of course, unless you are planning on playing live before you could have the money saved for a nice amp.

[Scytale]

Bolt Thrower used Ibanez Tube screamer pedal's to get their tone on their first album and it sounds freaking awesome so heavy (they also tune down 3.5 steps to A). This was back in the late 80's so I have no idea what amps they used. Their Bass player still uses one...

[Lummer]

Bolt Thrower used Ibanez Tube screamer pedal's to get their tone on their first album and it sounds freaking awesome so heavy (they also tune down 3.5 steps to A). This was back in the late 80's so I have no idea what amps they used. Their Bass player still uses one...

They *probably* used Marshall's.
But the ol' tube screamer is a trick a lot of dudes used back then. An already distorted amp, boosted with a pedal in front of it.

For instance: bloodbath got that evil-ass buzz-saw tone from just sticking a BOSS HM-2 in front of a JCM, and Trey Azagthoth has used JCM800's/900's with a Proco Rat for ages now.
It really does work for that dirty-as-Satan's-armpit tone.

[ichspeilemitmich]

I have a vox 50 watt. Its really nice, with 11 built in amps and a whole bunch of effects. For the solid vs tube argument, it can do both. And its only 350.00, so pretty cheap

[MadassAlex]

Also, I'll say that Gibson SGs would be kickass guitars for whatever purpose if they charged the correct amount of money for them. : (

[Lummer]

I have a vox 50 watt. Its really nice, with 11 built in amps and a whole bunch of effects. For the solid vs tube argument, it can do both. And its only 350.00, so pretty cheap

Not to be a dick or anything but...

No wait, I AM a dick.

A cheap solid-state can never in a million years sound like a tube amp. Try a tube amp, and I am certain you'll agree with me.