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Author Topic: Folk Music and the Environment  (Read 101170 times)

Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #200 on: 25 Jan 2008, 16:04 »

Yeah, there is, but it's only at some levels, I think. The invisible flying insubstantial pink unicorns flying around you at the moment - is it the case that you believe they don't exist or you don't believe they exist?

I don't believe they exist.

Equating every concept of God with the Tooth Fairy or invisible pink unicorns is exactly what is laughably ignorant about the Dawkins type of atheism.
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Scandanavian War Machine

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #201 on: 25 Jan 2008, 16:12 »

@Supersheep

yes, it's definitely not God. it might be a god, though. there is pretty severe difference.

on infinite space and time: space goes on forever; real talk. but remember what space is: space is empty; it's absolutely nothing. sometimes there is matter floating in it.
so space goes on forever, but the matter within space only goes out so far.

instead of thinking about our universe as everything there is, try thinking about it as just a really, really big galaxy which is seperated by unfathomable amounts of space from other galaxies (other universes). they are so far from each other that they can never interact with each other (i say never loosely because honestly, who knows?).

infinite time? well, i just don't know. i'm almost positive that time can't end but it will require more thought.
« Last Edit: 25 Jan 2008, 16:13 by Scandanavian War Machine »
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Nodaisho

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #202 on: 25 Jan 2008, 17:22 »

Given enough time, humans could become god-like, through evolution and use of technology. You all know that Arthur C. Clarke quote, right?

Of course, that is if we don't manage to kill each other off first.
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #203 on: 25 Jan 2008, 17:31 »

It is more likely that, no matter how advanced humans get, we will always be doomed to fall into a Dark Age from which we must emerge again, forever.  The odds are just stacked too much against us (meteors, disease, hatred, war, selfishness, etc).
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Scandanavian War Machine

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #204 on: 25 Jan 2008, 17:44 »

i'm pretty sure humans won't last long enough to become god-like. we definitely won't evolve that way. thanks to our big brains we have stopped evolving. instead of selecting for survival we are now selecting for looks since all of our survival is done for us by machines. we will evolve, yes, but into blond-haired, blue-eyed supermodels. not gods.

that's assuming we make it that far, which i kind of doubt.
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Also I would like to point out that the combination of Sailor Moon and faux-Kerouac / Sonic Youth spelling is perhaps the purest distillation of what this forum is that we have yet been presented with.

Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #205 on: 25 Jan 2008, 17:46 »

You're ignoring societal evolution, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRLy7LqFN6E
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supersheep

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #206 on: 25 Jan 2008, 17:50 »

See, I fail to see any difference between God and the flying pink unicorns - there is no scientific evidence for either of them. Why can you say that they don't exist, but when someone says God doesn't exist, they're laughably ignorant? Actually, maybe you are talking about a different concept of God than the one I am - I basically going for the omnipotent omniscient external being totally different from us, along the lines of what Aquinas describes.

The whole space and time thing is something that I don't know anywhere near enough physics to even begin to try and understand. But if you're talking about infinite numbers of universes, then yes, I agree with you.
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Scandanavian War Machine

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #207 on: 25 Jan 2008, 17:59 »

that seems to be a seperate matter from what i was talking about, though. maybe i misunderstood him (very likely; he talks quite fast).

i whole-heartedly agree that our society and technology is advancing at a ridiculous, ever-increasing rate but spontaneous, individual mutation? again, i may have completely misunderstood that guy so please correct me if i'm way off.
 
i think i may have just lost my grasp on this conversation. my brain is rebelling; it won't let me think about this anymore. 
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Also I would like to point out that the combination of Sailor Moon and faux-Kerouac / Sonic Youth spelling is perhaps the purest distillation of what this forum is that we have yet been presented with.

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #208 on: 25 Jan 2008, 18:02 »

Evolution isn't linear. There isn't a "goal", and there isn't a progression, as in, humanity isn't the sum total of evolution up to this point, all the things that came before us weren't trial runs and everything that will come after us won't necessarily be an improvement over what exists now. We were one organism amongst many millions who just happened to have evolved to have larger and more complex brains that give us an astounding advantage over all other life on Earth. One of the common misconceptions about Natural Selection is that only beneficial traits are passed on genetically. Any trait can be passed on so long as it doesn't directly interfere with the survival of the organism. And even then, things like autism and hemophilia continue to exist, because they don't outright kill you and in some cases they "skip generations". Talk of a "homo superior" or other such concept that we will eventually ascend to through evolution is science fiction, if not fantasy. We won't naturally shed all of our ugly habits over time.

As for cultural / scientific evolution, there is a threshold. It's intimidating to think about the rate of discovery over time, but the talk always assumes that trends will stay constant. My wager is that for the most part things will stay mostly the same for a long time. We have to remember that 50 years ago learned people honestly believed that by now we could be living on other planets, free of all communicable diseases and driving clean, flying cars, due to technological possibilities that seemed limitless. Chances are there will be gains, but they will be comparitively modest.
« Last Edit: 25 Jan 2008, 18:10 by Kid van Pervert »
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #209 on: 25 Jan 2008, 18:07 »

See, I fail to see any difference between God and the flying pink unicorns - there is no scientific evidence for either of them. Why can you say that they don't exist, but when someone says God doesn't exist, they're laughably ignorant?

If you will read the Dawkins review I linked earlier in the thread, you'll find the answer to that question.

Lacking evidence of something is not enough for me to say that I believe it doesn't exist.  I don't believe negatives.  Just because I don't believe in invisible unicorns doesn't mean I believe there are no such things.

Broadly speaking, I don't believe in much at all, including "tables", "Mogwai albums", "gravity", and "matter".

Quote
Actually, maybe you are talking about a different concept of God than the one I am - I basically going for the omnipotent omniscient external being

Yes, again, refer to said article: "Dawkins seems to believe in God, if not having a white beard, at least as some sort of chap, however supersized."

Dawkins and many atheists are provably ignorant of theologians that define God in completely different terms entirely.

Again quoting the article, "reading Dawkins on God is like reading a book on evolutionary biology written by someone who has only read The Book of British Birds".
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #210 on: 25 Jan 2008, 18:18 »

Sadly, a lot of the ID folks haven't even read the Book of British Birds.
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #211 on: 25 Jan 2008, 18:35 »

Just because I'm bashing Dawkins-style atheism is no reason to think I'm some kind of super-religious Christian, or even a Christian at all in any significant sense.

So let's leave Intelligent Design out of it.
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Nodaisho

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #212 on: 25 Jan 2008, 18:54 »

Evolution isn't linear. There isn't a "goal", and there isn't a progression, as in, humanity isn't the sum total of evolution up to this point, all the things that came before us weren't trial runs and everything that will come after us won't necessarily be an improvement over what exists now. We were one organism amongst many millions who just happened to have evolved to have larger and more complex brains that give us an astounding advantage over all other life on Earth. One of the common misconceptions about Natural Selection is that only beneficial traits are passed on genetically. Any trait can be passed on so long as it doesn't directly interfere with the survival of the organism. And even then, things like autism and hemophilia continue to exist, because they don't outright kill you and in some cases they "skip generations". Talk of a "homo superior" or other such concept that we will eventually ascend to through evolution is science fiction, if not fantasy. We won't naturally shed all of our ugly habits over time.

As for cultural / scientific evolution, there is a threshold. It's intimidating to think about the rate of discovery over time, but the talk always assumes that trends will stay constant. My wager is that for the most part things will stay mostly the same for a long time. We have to remember that 50 years ago learned people honestly believed that by now we could be living on other planets, free of all communicable diseases and driving clean, flying cars, due to technological possibilities that seemed limitless. Chances are there will be gains, but they will be comparitively modest.
And about twenty years before then, they thought that it was impossible to ever get to the moon.

And not that I am not speaking about any time that any of us will see, just that at some point in time, millions or billions of years from now, if we do not destroy our civilizations, we could do things that seem impossible to the average person these days. Even five hundred years ago, someone would have thought things impossible that these days we take for granted. How long did it take columbus to cross the ocean again? Compared to the length of flights across continents now?

How long has the universe existed? Doesn't it seem somewhat arrogant to assume that in our meager time on this planet, we have become as advanced as anything else has?

And Intelligent Design? Seems like the most intelligent way to design something is so that it continues creating and changing itself. Unless it is a robot that you are giving control of all your weaponry, in which case you are being really fucking stupid.
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KvP

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #213 on: 25 Jan 2008, 19:02 »

Lacking evidence of something is not enough for me to say that I believe it doesn't exist.  I don't believe negatives.  Just because I don't believe in invisible unicorns doesn't mean I believe there are no such things.
I can't really show that there is or is not a tea kettle orbiting Jupiter, but I'm not agnostic about it.

Dawkins and many atheists are provably ignorant of theologians that define God in completely different terms entirely.
I don't think they care about those theists that aren't contained within a very specific yet very large set that believes there is a omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient cloud being who has been and is active in the events of the world and a 2,000 year old novel is both his word and the only reference point for making sense of the modern world and its problems. Anyone else, say, a theist who believes that God is merely the energy created by all the hugs in the world, is beneath notice. They don't present anything worth addressing. If Jesus was just an anarchistic, crazy guru who presented ideas already presented elsewhere in the world, there's no good reason to fixate upon him.

I'll have to read and respond to that SA article a bit later, I have a party to attend presently. I look forward to it, though. Both the party and the article.
« Last Edit: 25 Jan 2008, 19:07 by Kid van Pervert »
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #214 on: 25 Jan 2008, 19:10 »

Not the SA article, Kid, I was referring to the lengthy criticism of Dawkins' The God Delusion.

Here is a link to it again so you don't have to look for it.
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Johnny C

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #215 on: 25 Jan 2008, 19:14 »

See, I fail to see any difference between God and the flying pink unicorns

Erm - one's a flying pink strawman?

I don't think they care about those theists that aren't contained within a very specific yet very large set that believes there is a omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient cloud being who has been and is active in the events of the worldfixate upon him.

Who says that's even the dominant theme in Christianity? Not one single priest I've ever talked to thinks of God as the big buddy up in the clouds. They view God as omnipresent, omnibenevolent and omniscient but to think that he's just a slightly bigger organism is to completely ignore the idea that he's supposed to be, above all of those omniadjectives, omnipotent.

Since we're all talking about this in terms of science and logic, here's a puzzler for you - if God is omnipotent, won't He or She have already seen your arguments coming? If God's supposed to be taken on faith, would God design a universe where He or She could be proven to either exist or not exist?

Zerodrone's argument seems to boil down to the fact that there are things out there beyond our comprehension, and that those things actually do exist or they do happen. His postulation is that it's not a significant set of steps to go from "there are things out there we don't understand" to "I believe in God."
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #216 on: 25 Jan 2008, 19:21 »

Quote from: Eagleton
"in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist. He is, rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing. God and the universe do not add up to two, any more than my envy and my left foot constitute a pair of objects."
[/b]
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Johnny C

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #217 on: 25 Jan 2008, 19:23 »

God, I love theology.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #218 on: 25 Jan 2008, 19:41 »

Quote from: Eagleton
"in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist. He is, rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing. God and the universe do not add up to two, any more than my envy and my left foot constitute a pair of objects."
[/b]


So god is in effect a concept that has no material effect on the world? In that case I guess you can have your god I guess, but dont expect me to stop ridiculeing prayer.
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #219 on: 25 Jan 2008, 19:48 »

Yeah, man.  You ridicule those religious types!  MAJOR PWNAGE, man!
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KharBevNor

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #220 on: 25 Jan 2008, 20:30 »

Since we're talking about evolution and religion, I'm surprised no one has talked about Dawkins only actually original and interesting observation, ie. that the majority of religions (certainly of the most popular ones) are set up so that the survival of the dogma is more important than the survival of humanity, and the way in which this mimics the behaviour of viruses?

The whole idea that nothing necessarily exists, don't believe in tables, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda is really pathetic fucking apologetics bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is. What you're trying to do of course, is place abstract concepts on the same level as concrete artifacts, and imply an equivalence between them. That's nice, except for the way that completely ignores the distinction between objective and subjective reality. Or, to put it bluntly, no matter how much Hume you quote at it, you'll still be able to trip over your coffee table. Moreover, so will I. However, if we were to both, say, pray together, or meditate together, or practice yoga, or magick, or what the fuck ever together at the same time, and we both had a spiritual exprience, then the nature of those experiences would be different. Now, maybe what you were talking about was extrinsic properties, which is fine, but the table still has its own intrinsic properties of mass, size, composition etc. that you will trip over no matter what you call it or how you view it. If you can find me a molecule of God to analyse, then we can continue with your line of reasoning zerodrone. Otherwise, stop being an idiot.
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #221 on: 25 Jan 2008, 20:48 »

Since we're talking about evolution and religion, I'm surprised no one has talked about Dawkins only actually original and interesting observation, ie. that the majority of religions (certainly of the most popular ones) are set up so that the survival of the dogma is more important than the survival of humanity, and the way in which this mimics the behaviour of viruses?

I'm assuming we've al read Snow Crash already.

Quote
The whole idea that nothing necessarily exists, don't believe in tables, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda is really pathetic fucking apologetics bullshit. I'm sorry, but it is. What you're trying to do of course, is place abstract concepts on the same level as concrete artifacts, and imply an equivalence between them. That's nice, except for the way that completely ignores the distinction between objective and subjective reality. Or, to put it bluntly, no matter how much Hume you quote at it, you'll still be able to trip over your coffee table.

No, I'll still be able to receive information from my brain that I am tripping over a coffee table.  This in no way tells me that the table "exists", only that I am receiving data.

I receive data that if I see a table, I can touch it and it will be solid.  I have also had genuine experiences whereby I had telepathic conversations with another human being, which we both afterwards verified as having happened, down to the word.  And yet I'm sure your own set of data will provoke you to tell me that it didn't happen or it was bullshit, which is your prerogative.  It is, after all, your Universe.

Quote
Moreover, so will I. However, if we were to both, say, pray together, or meditate together, or practice yoga, or magick, or what the fuck ever together at the same time, and we both had a spiritual exprience, then the nature of those experiences would be different.

See above.  I have also had experiences with the same group of 4 other people where we all had a same internal "vision" which we all perceived as identical.

Quote
Now, maybe what you were talking about was extrinsic properties, which is fine, but the table still has its own intrinsic properties of mass, size, composition etc. that you will trip over no matter what you call it or how you view it. If you can find me a molecule of God to analyse, then we can continue with your line of reasoning zerodrone. Otherwise, stop being an idiot.

Who says God is made of molecules?  Are thoughts made of molecules?  Are choices?  Did you decide to call me an idiot, or did you call me an idiot because of an inexorable series of chemical reactions in your brain?
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #222 on: 25 Jan 2008, 21:06 »

You found, upon communicating with each other, that your experiences were the same?

What a surprise!
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #223 on: 25 Jan 2008, 21:11 »

What a flip dismissal!

One of them would say something that they were perceiving.  It would match up exactly with what I was seeing internally, and what the rest of them were.

These are people that absolutely would not have been lying or agreeing for the sake of seeming "cool".

But again, as I said, I knew you would tell me my experiences were bullshit before you even did, so carry on.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #224 on: 25 Jan 2008, 22:31 »

As for cultural / scientific evolution, there is a threshold. It's intimidating to think about the rate of discovery over time, but the talk always assumes that trends will stay constant. My wager is that for the most part things will stay mostly the same for a long time. We have to remember that 50 years ago learned people honestly believed that by now we could be living on other planets, free of all communicable diseases and driving clean, flying cars, due to technological possibilities that seemed limitless. Chances are there will be gains, but they will be comparitively modest.

I agree that evolution via natural selection is pretty stagnant within humans as a species. I personally think that evolution via technology will be a much more important factor within a few hundred years. I'm not entirely sure what you meant by "threshhold", but as far as evolution goes, it all comes down to DNA. Once we know exactly what everything in the human genome does, and how to put it together, then we can pretty much do whatever we like as far as self-directed evolution goes.

This knowledge of genetics will happen. It's already happening, and it's getting faster. How it will be used is a different matter, but its potential is pretty high.

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #225 on: 25 Jan 2008, 22:41 »

Unless things like "kindness" and "cruelty" are completely independant of genetics.  Then we'll still have the same problems we have now.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #226 on: 25 Jan 2008, 23:18 »

Who says God is made of molecules?  Are thoughts made of molecules?  Are choices?  Did you decide to call me an idiot, or did you call me an idiot because of an inexorable series of chemical reactions in your brain?
Okay so if your thoughts are not made of molecules then how exactly does alchahol work.... magic....
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #227 on: 25 Jan 2008, 23:23 »

The act of thinking involves the firing of neurons, but are those neurons and electrical reactions really all that constitute a "thought", a "choice", or a "mood"?

It amazes me that there are people who actually embrace a worldview which suggests that they only have an illusion of free will and that everything that will ever happen in their life is inevitable.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #228 on: 25 Jan 2008, 23:34 »

Does that mean that they wouldn't sue if you stole their car? Or would that be destined to happen?
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #229 on: 25 Jan 2008, 23:52 »

The logical extension of the argument that our thoughts are nothing but chemical reactions is that every single "choice" we make is not a choice, but is rather the only possibly outcome when the incredibly vast, but nonetheless finite, amount of data is taken into consideration.

Some would argue that sufficiently advanced interactions of atoms is indistinguishable from free will, obviously, but that argument falls apart when confronted by the fact that there's no real, current way to account for choice or willpower within a strictly scientific framework.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #230 on: 26 Jan 2008, 01:26 »

I'm reminded of a group of studies (referenced through B.F. Skinner, I believe. I don't have direct reference) in which electrodes were implanted in test subjects' brains in such a place that when electrical currents were run through the electrode, the subject turned his/her head, involuntarily. The fascinating part was that none of the test subjects reported an involuntary action, indeed, they said they turned their heads on purpose, of their own free will. "I heard a noise" or "my neck was tired and I was stretching" or somesuch. As I said before, I don't truly believe in the self as true cause of action. Human behavior is a complex system, but it is a system.


It amazes me that there are people who actually embrace a worldview which suggests that they only have an illusion of free will and that everything that will ever happen in their life is inevitable.
Why not? My conscious awareness that the decisions I'm going to be making are determined by situational factors doesn't really affect how I feel about those decisions. I don't enjoy my life any less. Besides, we (should) already admit that certain people don't have control over themselves. The mentally ill, for instance, or drug addicts. There are obviously factors that compromise their will, and it would be both grotesque and ignorant to insist that a clinically depressed person just isn't trying hard enough to change their attitude, or that all a smack addict suffers from is a lack of personal fortitude and responsibility. Are they really free? Are they less free than we are? Or are the determining factors of their behavior just more obvious than usual? Will and determinism aren't necessarily incompatible as it is. After all, the best thing Bowie did to kick heroin was up and move to an environment that didn't enable it. Unfortunately for him, that city was Berlin, which came with its own vices.

Who says God is made of molecules?  Are thoughts made of molecules?  Are choices?  Did you decide to call me an idiot, or did you call me an idiot because of an inexorable series of chemical reactions in your brain?
Are you making a "mental material" argument here, or are you being sardonic? I don't believe that when I think of my perfect island getaway, that island actually exists somewhere in reality. That perfect island getaway is in some way my brain state at the time of thought. It's not a full-fledged theory, it has its problems, but it's a better explanation than thought occupying some extradimensional space.

Regarding the review of The God Delusion, it has a number of strong points regarding the backwardness of Dawkins' crusade, and I've pondered the quickness of young atheists to literally scapegoat religion as the ipso facto origin of all worldly ills myself. But somehow, the academic objections to the book and the movement it represents seem sort of beside the point. Out here in WASP country there are precious few people who appreciate the finer points of theology. All the talk of what christianity really is is lost on all the people who will tell you that yes, Jesus did actually rise from the dead and yes, the Earth is 6,000 years old and yes, every word of Revelations will come to pass (do serious theologians not believe in Revelations?). I'd blame Dawkins for casting too broad a net, and allowing his rhetoric to cover non-protestants.

But having seen Daniel Dennett speak, he went at it less from an angry scientists' perspective and more of a philosopher's perspective, although the main focus of his lecture was the study of religion as meme. As any phi 101 student can tell you (and have you noticed how we're slowly cycling through all sorts of phi 101 topics?) any philosophy that prominently includes God is bound to be shittier than usual. Dennett certainly wasn't gung-ho about anything, and it was mighty disappointing that the Q&A after the lecture was mostly taken up by Dennett repeating his logic to clergy who angrily demanded for him to admit that God existed.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2008, 01:49 by Kid van Pervert »
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Johnny C

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #231 on: 26 Jan 2008, 01:47 »

I don't believe that when I think of my perfect island getaway, that island actually exists somewhere in reality. That perfect island getaway is in some way my brain state at the time of thought.

Maybe the exact island you're picturing doesn't exist but that doesn't rule out the existence of an island getaway.

Out here in WASP country there are precious few people who appreciate the finer points of theology. All the talk of what christianity really is is lost on all the people who will tell you that yes, Jesus did actually rise from the dead and yes, the Earth is 6,000 years old and yes, every word of Revelations will come to pass (do serious theologians not believe in Revelations?).

Precious few people appreciate the finer points of democracy, but that doesn't invalidate it. If Dawkins' message was "think seriously about whether or not you actually believe in your religion" and he directed it at those people, that would be reasonable. It's not "beside the point" to criticize him for having too broad a message that's too off-target. Plus there are other reasons Dawkins' argument isn't particularly valid, which have been covered up in the thread.

(A lot of people think Revelations is code, hey? Well, "code" isn't exactly the right word, but it gets the idea across. It's purportedly a message to Christians to continue to have conviction in their beliefs in the teachings of Christ, even in the face of great danger.)

As any phi 101 student can tell you (and have you noticed how we're slowly cycling through all sorts of phi 101 topics?) any philosophy that prominently includes God is bound to be shittier than usual.

Any phi 101 student I've ever met is either full of himself, full of crap or bursting over with both. Not sure what this has to do with any part of your argument other than suggesting that a select group of people taking a particular area of study that for the past few centuries has been examining the notion of God and finding it lacking will not be receptive to arguments relating to God. I guess you're right on the money there.

The notion of a religion as a meme is a fascinating one, but does it account for individuals having separate beliefs within the same belief structure? My mother and I are both Catholic but we have different views on the theology and both of us certainly have different views from our priest, who also has different views from the bishop. At its core the beliefs are similar but in practice they are wildly different from one another, except that we all believe a dude was nailed to a tree for saying some stuff people didn't like and then he came back later.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2008, 01:50 by Johnny C »
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #232 on: 26 Jan 2008, 02:09 »

phi 101

My phi101 class here at school was a miserable excretion of the educational system.  It involved a one-on-one debate between my professor and a kid who was attempting to dismantle John Locke's primary and secondary qualities using the example of a zebra (the fact that it occurred in nature and was multicolored apparently disproved the fact that its two colors in the human eye are ultimately perception and don't really exist otherwise), and the debate for or against god consisted of a girl actually citing the moral pioneerings of Final Destination as an example of god's plan for each and every one of us.
Classes like this are mostly why I'm transferring.
I wish my phi101 class was like this thread at all.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #233 on: 26 Jan 2008, 02:15 »

Why not? My conscious awareness that the decisions I'm going to be making are determined by situational factors doesn't really affect how I feel about those decisions.

The point is that if you acknowledge that thought is strictly a physical phenomenon, you never make decisions at all.  You seem to be stuck in a sort of loop whereby you claim that one can make decisions, but have said nothing about what scientific evidence leads you to believe that our brains are capable of deciding which neurons to fire.  If the firing of a neuron is subject to chemical law, then so is the firing of the neuron which causes you to believe you're choosing to fire another neuron.  At some point you have to pony up an explanation of what is allowing you to "choose" anything at all, or admit that factoring in everything about the Universe - a finite set of data - there will always only be one outcome because atoms and molecules behave according to entirely predictable laws which do not include "morality" or "choice" or "freedom".

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or that all a smack addict suffers from is a lack of personal fortitude and responsibility

The body's dependance on a chemical is part of the interaction, sure.  This is entirely beside the point.  How can someone be held responsible for something they have no control over?

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Will and determinism aren't necessarily incompatible as it is. After all, the best thing Bowie did to kick heroin was up and move to an environment that didn't enable it.

Sure.  Now tell me what part of him enabled him to make that "choice".  Show me the part of the brain that our minds can control, rather than the current scientific evidence which is that our brains control our minds.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #234 on: 26 Jan 2008, 03:06 »

Supersheep, if this were my thread, you would have won it almost 2 pages ago.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #235 on: 26 Jan 2008, 04:48 »


on infinite space and time: space goes on forever; real talk. but remember what space is: space is empty; it's absolutely nothing. sometimes there is matter floating in it.
so space goes on forever, but the matter within space only goes out so far.
There's really no reason to believe space goes on infinitely.  It might, it might not.  However, if it is infinite, it probably is filled with matter pretty evenly for that infinite expanse.  The big bang theory doesn't describe the creation of matter within an existing space; the theory is that space itself was created in the big bang, along with time and all the energy in the universe.  The energy/matter was created within all the space that was created.

There is empirical evidence for the universe being homogenously full of matter too!  The cosmic microwave background, which is the "echo" (for want of a better word?) of the big bang, is pretty much the same in every direction.  So, yeah, if there is infinite space, there is an infinite amount of matter in that space.  Of course, as I said, there might not be infinite space.  There's a lot we don't know about the shape of the universe; whether it's infinite or finite, flat, curved positively like a kind of three dimensional sphere or curved negatively like a kind of three dimensional saddle.

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instead of thinking about our universe as everything there is, try thinking about it as just a really, really big galaxy which is seperated by unfathomable amounts of space from other galaxies (other universes). they are so far from each other that they can never interact with each other (i say never loosely because honestly, who knows?).
umm?

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infinite time? well, i just don't know. i'm almost positive that time can't end but it will require more thought.
The universe will almost certainly come to an "end" of sorts.  So there isn't actually an infinite amount of time for all possibilities to arise.  Thermodynamics is a bitch like that.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #236 on: 26 Jan 2008, 05:18 »

Quote from: Eagleton
"in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist. He is, rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing. God and the universe do not add up to two, any more than my envy and my left foot constitute a pair of objects."

This is begging the question! If you define God as the necessary condition for existence, then of course God exists, but this is an even more pointless task than Aquinas' First Way - you've proved something that has to be, and then defining it as god. Also I have never come across this definition.
On reflection, using the word being is a bad choice - it doesn't convey the sense of being part of the universe itself while also being in some way a separate entity. God is not the universe, but they are intrinsically linked in some way by being similar. Is that what you're getting at here? So the way in which the flying pink unicorns differ from God is the property of being part of the universe? I don't see them as being a strawman - to me both are invisible insubstantial 'entities' (using a very loose definition of the word entity), so I want to find out how they differ from one another.

As for free will, I've seen people try to explain choice by appeals to either quantum indeterminacy or the many-worlds hypothesis. Whether these are convincing or not I don't know, but they are possibilities that work within science. The identical visions you and your friends saw could have been caused by a particular trigger external to you all, or perhaps your brain convinced itself that what your friend described was what it saw, or so on. There are potential physical explanations for it that do not need to appeal to external spiritual factors - we just haven't developed a theory for them yet, we can only provide ad hoc hypotheses.

And I don't think talking philosophy here is a pointless enterprise - it's pretty much the only place you can have this discussion.

Also, THANKS KATIE!
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #237 on: 26 Jan 2008, 06:18 »

As for free will, I've seen people try to explain choice by appeals to either quantum indeterminacy or the many-worlds hypothesis. Whether these are convincing or not I don't know, but they are possibilities that work within science.

Not really.  Free Will is still a flying pink unicorn that people choose to believe in without any scientific evidence whatsoever.

Atoms and molecules interact with each other, as far as we know, in entirely predictable ways or in entirely probabilistic ways.  Neither option provides an explanation for if "choice" exists.  In order for free will - choice - to exist, there has to be some evidence that our brains are physically capable of affecting the way atoms and molecules interact.  There is no such evidence inside the realm of hard science.

Believing in Free Will is just as faith-based as believing in God, karma, fate or destiny.  It is a convenient belief that makes people feel good but that has even less scientific basic, since there have in fact been studies which suggest that Free Will can be influenced by stimulation of certain parts of the brain.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #238 on: 26 Jan 2008, 08:57 »

On reflection, using the word being is a bad choice - it doesn't convey the sense of being part of the universe itself while also being in some way a separate entity. God is not the universe, but they are intrinsically linked in some way by being similar. Is that what you're getting at here? So the way in which the flying pink unicorns differ from God is the property of being part of the universe? I don't see them as being a strawman - to me both are invisible insubstantial 'entities' (using a very loose definition of the word entity), so I want to find out how they differ from one another.

They're two separate things. I understand your point - you can't see either of them so why assume they exist? It is, however, one thing to assume that tiny, physically impossible animals somehow exist at a sub-atomic level and another thing to assume that an omnipotent extra-organic force somehow exists above and beyond our plane. It's a strawman because you've somewhat represented theists' and agnostics' beliefs as the notion that God is hiding just behind every molecule and having a chuckle that we can't see him.

I dunno. At this stage of my life the only conclusion I can come to about God is that it's a notion completely beyond our comprehension and no amount of saying "here's why he doesn't exist" and clapping ourselves on the back can really change that, because an omnipotent being would be so far beyond our scope. I said this up earlier in the thread:

If God's supposed to be taken on faith, would God design a universe where He or She could be proven to either exist or not exist?

What makes us assume that an omnipotent being operates by our set of principles? What makes us think that God is just a big thing kinda like us that we can comprehend? This might have worked for the Greeks whose gods were essentially just big jerks living up on a mountain, but that's very different from the modern concept of God in Western monotheism.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #239 on: 26 Jan 2008, 10:29 »

Not really.  Free Will is still a flying pink unicorn that people choose to believe in without any scientific evidence whatsoever.

Atoms and molecules interact with each other, as far as we know, in entirely predictable ways or in entirely probabilistic ways.  Neither option provides an explanation for if "choice" exists.  In order for free will - choice - to exist, there has to be some evidence that our brains are physically capable of affecting the way atoms and molecules interact.  There is no such evidence inside the realm of hard science.

Believing in Free Will is just as faith-based as believing in God, karma, fate or destiny.  It is a convenient belief that makes people feel good but that has even less scientific basic, since there have in fact been studies which suggest that Free Will can be influenced by stimulation of certain parts of the brain.

Respectfully, I don't believe you understand the fundamentals of the scientific method.  No rational person says "I will believe only that which I can scientifically prove exists."  Instead, a rational person says: "I will observe the world and try, to the extent possible, to find logically consistent theories to explain that which I observed."  A scientist observes her own apparent capacity of self-awareness and to make decisions.  A number of competing theories are apparent explaining this capacity.  Is it an exceptionally complex interactions of hormones, electric discharge between neurons, and external stimuli which create these observed phenomena?  The scientist may accept this as the contours of a theory even while admitting that the exact workings of this mechanism are not known and perhaps may never be fully understood.

In other words, the fact that science does not currently offer a complete explanation for a phenomenon does not mean a supernatural explanation is acceptable.  For instance:  science does not currently explain what occurred prior to the Big Bang.  There are theories, but no evidence.  Science does not currently explain why the energy and matter in the universe observable through gravitational effects is 96% larger than than the energy and matter observable through electromagnetic radiation.  Science does not currently provide a model for quantum interactions consistent with a model for nuclear interactions.

So what?  Maybe someday, science will provide the answers.  Maybe humankind will never develop sophisticated enough models to account for these phenomenae.  Maybe the evidence for such models no longer exists.  Every scientist will admit that these holes exist.  Few would agree that they are philosophically problematic.

Quote from: Johhny C
What makes us assume that an omnipotent being operates by our set of principles? What makes us think that God is just a big thing kinda like us that we can comprehend? This might have worked for the Greeks whose gods were essentially just big jerks living up on a mountain, but that's very different from the modern concept of God in Western monotheism.

But modern Western Monotheism encompasses a whole bunch of mutually inconsistent beliefs.  This Harris poll found that:

Quote from: Harris Poll
The 82 percent of adults who believe in God include 86 percent of women and 93 percent of Republicans but only 78 percent of men, 69 percent of those with postgraduate degrees, and 75 percent of political independents.
The 73 percent of adults who believe in miracles include 79 percent of women, 83 percent of those with high school education or less and 76 percent of Republicans. Fewer (66%) men, post graduates (50%) and Independents (65%) believe in miracles.

The 70 percent of those who believe in the survival of the soul after death include 74 percent of women, 82 percent of Republicans but only 66 percent of men. Three-quarters (76%) of those without a college degree share this belief but only 53 percent of those with postgraduate degrees believe in this.

The 70 percent who believe in heaven includes 76 percent of women and 64 percent of men. This falls to 60 percent of Independents and 49 percent among people with postgraduate degrees.
Seven in ten (70%) believe that Jesus is God or the son of God. This belief is more prevalent among women (75%) than men (64%), among those with less education (77%) than among post graduates (48%) and among Republicans (82%) than Independents (62%).

Assuming for the sake of argument that this poll does accurately describe the beliefs of a majority of Americans, how can these beliefs be consistent with the transcendental conception of God that you claim is the "modern concept of God in Western monotheism"? 

To the theists and agnostics participating in this conversation, I ask you:

(1) Do you believe that there have been events on Earth inexplicable by the laws of physics, and caused by God?

(2) Do you believe that there have been instructions, communicated by God to man, which provide, directly or through interpretation, an irrefutable basis to guide or judge moral decisions?
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2008, 11:57 by pilsner »
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Johnny C

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #240 on: 26 Jan 2008, 10:57 »

Assuming for the sake of argument that this poll does accurately describe the beliefs of a majority of Americans, how can these beliefs be consistent with the transcendental conception of God that you claim is the "modern concept of God in Western monotheism"?

Fair enough, you've caught me. The vast majority of theism that I'm versed in is liberation theology. You're right, belief in God and God's work is tremendously inconsistent across the board. I suppose by a "modern concept of God in Western monotheism" I'm not necessarily talking about the average person's views on the subject, but rather the bulk of priests and theologians and, shit, Christians with religious studies degrees in my life. Those people are very unlikely to say that God is a big bearded cloud-being. You're right, I probably could have clarified that up the page, and that certainly undermines that part of my argument a bit. Well-played.

To the theists and agnoistics participating in this conversation, I ask you:

(1) Do you believe that there have been events on Earth inexplicable by the laws of physics, and caused by God?

(2) Do you believe that there have been instructions, communicated by God to man, which provide, directly or through interpretation, an irrefutable basis to guide or judge moral decisions?

Are you asking about miracles with that first question? I have my doubts, but since my set of beliefs acknowledges a possibility that there is an omnipotent being behind the creation of the universe I have to acknowledge the possibility that they can happen. They might also be events of mass hysteria, just like God might be a meme. My beliefs fall on the first side. You're perfectly entitled to your beliefs falling on the latter side or on any side you please, really.

On the second question, I believe there have been. However, I'm not advocating taking the Bible as either one hundred percent true fact or absolute in every word. Each book of the Bible was written for specific people at specific time. A good deal are fables and allegory meant to prove a point rather than tell a narrative relating to individual people who actually existed. Various parts contradict each other. What's moral in one book is a terrible sin in the next. However, the overall message of the Bible, that love for your fellow man is paramount, is I'd say an irrefutable basis to guide or judge moral decisions, and that's fairly consistent throughout. I'd personally say that even if you aren't willing to take the Bible as instructions communicated by God to man on how to behave with one another, the fact is that behaving in a consistently compassionate and loving manner towards your fellow human being is tremendously rewarding and making your moral decisions based on that behaviour is likewise rewarding. That's not to say you can't occasionally fuck it up, but that release of endorphins is either evolutionary, spiritually related or some combination of the two.
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #241 on: 26 Jan 2008, 12:03 »

Respectfully, I don't believe you understand the fundamentals of the scientific method.

Respectfully, I don't think you understood what I was talking about.

Quote
No rational person says "I will believe only that which I can scientifically prove exists."  Instead, a rational person says: "I will observe the world and try, to the extent possible, to find logically consistent theories to explain that which I observed."  A scientist observes her own apparent capacity of self-awareness and to make decisions.

But again, you're still not coming up with a workable definition of what a "decision" is that coincides with established science.

Quote
Is it an exceptionally complex interactions of hormones, electric discharge between neurons, and external stimuli which create these observed phenomona?

If so, then choice does not exist.  Only the illusion of it.

Quote
The scientist may accept this as the contours of a theory even while admitting that the exact workings of this mechanism are not know and perhaps may never be fully understood.

Of course.  Just as I may observe that I have had spiritual experiences (not specifically religious ones, but spiritual ones; more Terrence McKenna than Pat Robertson) and accept that they happened while admitting they may never be understood, by myself or anybody else.

Quote
In other words, the fact that science does not currently offer a complete explanation for a phenomenon does not mean a supernatural explanation is acceptable.

I reject the word "supernatural" entirely; nothing is supernatural, by definition.  At various times in history, gravity, light and fire would have been considered "supernatural".

Quote
(1) Do you believe that there have been events on Earth inexplicable by the laws of physics, and caused by God?

Unanswerable question.  Define "the laws of physics".  Do you mean the laws of physics we had in 100 AD, in 1800 AD, in this year, or the totality of the "laws of physics" which doubtless include untold numbers of things we have yet to conceive of?

I have personally experienced something that was completely and utterly unanswerable by the laws of physics - and it was something so mundane that its happening is all the more perplexing.  Story time:

A friend and I went out of town to see a band.  We got a hotel room.  While I was in the shower, he left the room to get some food.  When I emerged from the bathroom, he was knocking on the door.  Why couldn't he get in?  The deadbolt was locked.  There is no way to lock it from outside the room.  There was no one else in the room.  I was in the bathroom when he left.  There is literally, flat-out no explanation for that, yet I assure you that it happened.  We were not on drugs or otherwise mentally incapacitated.  It happened.

Quote
(2) Do you believe that there have been instructions, communicated by God to man, which provide, directly or through interpretation, an irrefutable basis to guide or judge moral decisions?

Another poorly-worded question; we haven't agreed on what God even is yet.  To me, "God" is the sum of humanity's collective unconscious, independant of space and time, and briefly glimpsed while in trances, in sleep, in meditation, or on certain powerful psychoactives.  Whether "it" existed before us or is a by-product of us, I do not hazard to guess.  In either case, however, morality in its broadest terms is a survival trait for any societal animal.  It is a socio-genetic advantage to not have the urge to kill and eat your neighbors.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #242 on: 26 Jan 2008, 12:50 »

That's yet another completely different definition of God. Personally I don't believe we have a collective unconscious, just lots of separate unconscious minds, and the things we see in trances or while on psychedelic drugs are just our neurons firing weirdly.
Johnny, are you talking about a conception of God specific to liberation theology or is it the general sort of God that Aquinas and the like are talking about, or some other thing? Also, I am kinda surprised that all the religious people you know are liberation theologists, given that the Church doesn't like it very much. Speaking of which, have you read any Kung? I've been meaning to look into him for about five years, but never got around to it. Any good starting points?
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #243 on: 26 Jan 2008, 13:22 »

I haven't had a chance to read Kung, unfortunately. I've been meaning to. When I find out what a good starting point would be, I'll let you know.

My mom is a social justice type so in the Church I grew up around social justice types. The youth at my church were, when I was in high school, fairly active in local community charity - I even worked at one of them for a few months. Hence, a good deal of the people I know are of the opinion that at least in part the story of Jesus is one of social justice. The sort of God I'm talking about is one that most of those people seem to believe in. I think it comes naturally out of the attitude - we're supposed to be busy helping each other, not shouting that God is real and here is the proof. God as an entity with His fingers in all sorts of human pie doesn't gel as well with this belief as God as a benevolent, omnipotent force outside our understanding.

I can't speak for anyone else but myself in this instance, but I'm not particularly enamoured with the Church as an institution, nor have I ever been, so what they say I ought to believe I try and take with a grain of salt.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #244 on: 26 Jan 2008, 14:56 »

On the second question, I believe there have been. However, I'm not advocating taking the Bible as either one hundred percent true fact or absolute in every word. Each book of the Bible was written for specific people at specific time. A good deal are fables and allegory meant to prove a point rather than tell a narrative relating to individual people who actually existed. Various parts contradict each other. What's moral in one book is a terrible sin in the next. However, the overall message of the Bible, that love for your fellow man is paramount, is I'd say an irrefutable basis to guide or judge moral decisions, and that's fairly consistent throughout. I'd personally say that even if you aren't willing to take the Bible as instructions communicated by God to man on how to behave with one another, the fact is that behaving in a consistently compassionate and loving manner towards your fellow human being is tremendously rewarding and making your moral decisions based on that behaviour is likewise rewarding. That's not to say you can't occasionally fuck it up, but that release of endorphins is either evolutionary, spiritually related or some combination of the two.
But most people would like to say there's something meaningful or special about being a Christian. Saying that the bible is allegorical is reducing it into a rather vague parable that doesn't make for a good religion, like a less useful Tortoise and the Hare. If someone agrees with the sentiment of that parable, yet understands that there isn't a literal slow yet ultimately victorious turtle, would we still call them (for lack of a better term) a Shellite? The basic moral philosophy of Jesus is native to every culture on the planet. Accepting it doesn't make you a Christian, unless it also makes you part of 95 other faiths. Believing the meek shall inherit the Earth doesn't make you a Christian, it just means you're not Nietzsche or Ayn Rand. Is there something special about being a Christian?
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2008, 15:06 by Kid van Pervert »
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #245 on: 26 Jan 2008, 17:22 »

However, the overall message of the Bible, that love for your fellow man is paramount, is I'd say an irrefutable basis to guide or judge moral decisions.

I think that humanity needs to realise that no philosophy is irrefutable, and that believeing in absoulute truths can cause large amounts of damage to society.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #246 on: 26 Jan 2008, 17:41 »

That's yet another completely different definition of God. Personally I don't believe we have a collective unconscious, just lots of separate unconscious minds, and the things we see in trances or while on psychedelic drugs are just our neurons firing weirdly.

That doesn't account for some phenomena, such as convergent fables amongst geographically separated populations.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #247 on: 26 Jan 2008, 18:14 »

Is there something special about being a Christian?

The bits about Jesus, I'd say.

I didn't say that the entire Bible was a big allegory, but I said that to treat the Bible as one solid entity that's consistent in style, tone and genre is a mistake. There's a significant difference.

I think that humanity needs to realise that no philosophy is irrefutable, and that believeing in absoulute truths can cause large amounts of damage to society.

Please, refute what is commonly known as the Golden Rule for me. I'd like to see it.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #248 on: 26 Jan 2008, 18:44 »

Unfortunately, there are arguments against the Golden Rule which, while I disagree with entirely, are not logically unimpeachable.  Ask any hardcore competition-minded Capitalist.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #249 on: 26 Jan 2008, 18:51 »

I dunno if I'd say that's logically unimpeachable. "Greed works" depends on whether or not someone intends jail to be their ultimate destination. See: Enron, Bre-X, Conrad Black, Martha Stewart...
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