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Author Topic: Folk Music and the Environment  (Read 101277 times)

Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #250 on: 26 Jan 2008, 18:59 »

Well, yeah.  My point was just that, sadly, a lot of people treat others like shit and improve their lives by doing so, and they have a right to make their soulless, Moloch-worshipping argument that "survival of the fittest" necessitates stepping on other people.

This is why societal evolution is the most important thing now, not evolution of the human animal per se.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #251 on: 26 Jan 2008, 19:27 »

I dunno if I'd say that's logically unimpeachable. "Greed works" depends on whether or not someone intends jail to be their ultimate destination. See: Enron, Bre-X, Conrad Black, Martha Stewart...
Course, those are the ones that got caught. Who knows how many people got away with it?
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #252 on: 26 Jan 2008, 20:16 »

Egoist capitalism, as most popularly embodied by Ayn Rand, is much less logically sound than the Golden Rule, and is incredibly marginal amongst academics, if relatively popular amongst amateur "enthusiasts" and political conservatives.
« Last Edit: 26 Jan 2008, 20:19 by Kid van Pervert »
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #253 on: 26 Jan 2008, 20:41 »

The point being that the most logically sound way of acting is almost never the way in which people actually conduct their lives.

I didn't say any argument against the Golden Rule was strong, just that it exists.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #254 on: 26 Jan 2008, 20:57 »

To me, "God" is the sum of humanity's collective unconscious, independant of space and time, and briefly glimpsed while in trances, in sleep, in meditation, or on certain powerful psychoactives.

I'm cool with this, but I don't see the point in calling it "God." Being 17, my beliefs on such matters are in a pretty consistent state of flux.  At the moment, I can accept something like a god provided we don't insist that it's sentient.

Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #255 on: 26 Jan 2008, 22:02 »

Well, I could take a cue from Future Sound of London and call it "the Isness", but honestly that just sounds kind of daft.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #256 on: 26 Jan 2008, 22:16 »

You could call it "Om."
Or "David Bowie."  Whatever you prefer, I suppose.

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #257 on: 26 Jan 2008, 22:32 »

Well, yeah.  My point was just that, sadly, a lot of people treat others like shit and improve their lives by doing so, and they have a right to make their soulless, Moloch-worshipping argument that "survival of the fittest" necessitates stepping on other people.


Yeah, I hate it when people use natural selection to justify selfish behavior. It's transparently self-serving and in most cases it's just a sentiment that gets brought out to muddy the waters when someone calls them on their lazy ass manipulative bullshit. Besides, altruistic and cooperative behavior is just as useful for ensuring the ongoing fitness of a population as being hyper-dominant, or else there wouldn't be anyone for the so-called "fit" assholes to rip off or depend on when their own powers fail them. So even if you were such a massive tool that you think its perfectly fine to live life based on what you surmise to be the true goal of biological imperatives, you're still mostly being ignorant and/or a selfish dickhead.
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John Curtin

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #258 on: 27 Jan 2008, 04:17 »

The Golden Rule (we're talking about "do unto others as you would have done unto yourself", right?) is a pretty decent ethical rule of thumb and works in the vast majority of situations but there are foreseeable results of it that most people would reject.  Its problem is that all people have the same desires and wishes, which is roughly true in a large statistical sense but there are always outliers.  My counterexample to it would be a person who wishes to be killed in a car accident.  If that person follows the golden rule then there is no reason for him/her to not deliberately seek to cause a fatal car accident on the autobahn.  S/he would have no problem if somebody else caused an accident killing them.  It's not hard to come up with pretty extreme examples like this, because different people have different desires.  On a less fatal scale, what's stopping a person who can't stand watching television from stealing his neighbour's TV and selling for money?  Not the golden rule, unless we narrow the definition of 'what you would have done' to 'what you would have done unto yourself if you were the other' in which case there's not much to be done unless you can read minds, and still gives absurd results: what if the other person wants you to help him/her kill somebody?

I'm not saying it's not a wonderful rule; it works in pretty much every "normal" situation involving "normal" people (whatever that means), as well as a large majority of "abnormal" situations (for instance it can't justify totalitarianism or genocide).  But it's not effective as a singular ethical code.  It can't solve quandaries of competing interests, such as in the case where a pregnant woman's life can only be saved by an abortion.

So yeah, it's good in most situations but to be honest it doesn't really help in the areas where ethics are most needed.  Most people have a pretty good intuitive idea that stealing is bad.


As for "natural selection", that's not an ethical justification for anything.  It's simply a truistic observation: things that are better equipped to survive will survive more.  It's in a way a form of begging the question: I am selfish because if I am not then natural selection will kick in and I won't be as well off as I would be if I am selfish.  I am selfish because I want to do better than other people.  I am selfish because I am selfish.  Selfishness is being used justify selfishness.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #259 on: 27 Jan 2008, 07:51 »

That doesn't account for some phenomena, such as convergent fables amongst geographically separated populations.

True, but there are plenty of other explanations for this - such as parallel evolutions of stories, or genetic predispositions towards these stories (or interpreting certain events in a certain way so as to bring out these particular fables). Not saying that these are the actual explanations, just that it is possible that the divergence of stories is not down to us sharing a mass unconsciousness.
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #260 on: 27 Jan 2008, 14:11 »

My counterexample to it would be a person who wishes to be killed in a car accident.  If that person follows the golden rule then there is no reason for him/her to not deliberately seek to cause a fatal car accident on the autobahn.

That's rhetorical simplification that is just silly and I think we can disregard it as statistically insignificant.

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It's not hard to come up with pretty extreme examples like this

Sure, but it would be pretty damn hard to actually find people who fit those examples.

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On a less fatal scale, what's stopping a person who can't stand watching television from stealing his neighbour's TV

Because the golden rule, in this case, is "Don't steal people's shit because you wouldn't want them to steal your shit", not "Disliking television programming means you can steal someone else's device for watching it".

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So yeah, it's good in most situations but to be honest it doesn't really help in the areas where ethics are most needed.  Most people have a pretty good intuitive idea that stealing is bad.

Because stealing being bad is covered by the Golden Rule.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #261 on: 27 Jan 2008, 15:39 »

My counterexample to it would be a person who wishes to be killed in a car accident.  If that person follows the golden rule then there is no reason for him/her to not deliberately seek to cause a fatal car accident on the autobahn.

That's rhetorical simplification that is just silly and I think we can disregard it as statistically insignificant.

Ok, how about If I like to play music really loud, and people in the immediate area around me dont, If I would tolerate their loud music, should I not worry about their opinion of it.

Peoples my point before was that nothing should be above question and that people should never take one thing as the "truth" and refuse to question it, not that there is always a more valid argument to any point.
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #262 on: 27 Jan 2008, 15:56 »

There are logically consistent arguments against the Golden Rule (I posted some) but yours isn't.

Let's take your first example: "I want to be killed in a car crash."

It's an oversimplification - what that person really means is "I would be pleased to be killed in a car crash."

Therefore it doesn't logically follow that it would be OK for that person to go out and get in a car crash with someone who, and here's the key part, wouldn't be pleased about it.

Same applies to your loud music argument.  You're positing that you would tolerate, or enjoy, loud music around you.  That's fine.  But the point is not that this gives you the right to play loud music; the point is that you would be causing them pain or displeasure.

Do not cause displeasure in others because you wouldn't want them to cause displeasure in you.

You're setting up straw men, not taking into account the entirety of the situations you're describing.
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bbqrocks

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #263 on: 27 Jan 2008, 16:01 »

Do not cause displeasure in others because you wouldn't want them to cause displeasure in you.

But what if you did want them to cause displeasure in you?
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #264 on: 27 Jan 2008, 16:04 »

By definition, if you want someone to cause you displeasure, then it is actually pleasure.  (See: masochism.)
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bbqrocks

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #265 on: 27 Jan 2008, 16:58 »

Not really. You may have ulterior motives apart from masochism which causes you to want them to cause you displeasure.

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John Curtin

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #266 on: 27 Jan 2008, 17:07 »

But that assumes we all know what causes pleasure or displeasure in others.  Furthermore, it still isn't anywhere near a perfect system.  Paying taxes causes most people displeasure; does this mean the government is morally reprehensible?

Like I said, I like the golden rule, but it's not infallible, no matter how nicely you define it.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #267 on: 27 Jan 2008, 17:34 »

Not really. You may have ulterior motives apart from masochism which causes you to want them to cause you displeasure.

So?  The point is still that you want it to happen.  Do things to other people that they want to be done to them as you would have other people do things to you that you would want to have done to you.

Really, must I go on?  Can't you guys think about your own arguments before hitting the "post" button?

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Paying taxes causes most people displeasure; does this mean the government is morally reprehensible?

1.  "The government" is not an individual.

2.  In theory, the individuals who pass laws which collect taxes accept that they, too, must pay those taxes.  I am not aware of any exemption which allows members of the US government to avoid sales tax, for example.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #268 on: 27 Jan 2008, 17:50 »

But that assumes we all know what causes pleasure or displeasure in others.  Furthermore, it still isn't anywhere near a perfect system.  Paying taxes causes most people displeasure; does this mean the government is morally reprehensible?
Your use of "pleasure" and "displeasure" is disingenuous. "Suffering" is a better word to use than "displeasure". We want to concern ourselves more with actual pain than discomfort and worry. I don't have a moral responsibility to make sure other people feel good about themselves. I do have a moral responsibility to, as much as possible, keep people from being physically hurt.

Furthermore, most people take taxes for granted. People who refuse to pay taxes still somehow expect to take advantage of sewage systems and waterworks, well kept and coordinated roads, and other essential services. That's what makes them douchebags for not paying taxes. So paying taxes might be uncomfortable in that you're losing money, but it's supposed to be an investment. Only the most clumsy of demagogues would refer to paying taxes as being torturous.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #269 on: 27 Jan 2008, 18:10 »

Man, I totally rescind my "Gah, this thread." It's absolutely fascinating.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #270 on: 27 Jan 2008, 18:52 »

We've got a bit of a misnomer going on though.

I just wish I was smart enough to contribute something here.

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #271 on: 27 Jan 2008, 22:19 »

1.  "The government" is not an individual.
2.  In theory, the individuals who pass laws which collect taxes accept that they, too, must pay those taxes.  I am not aware of any exemption which allows members of the US government to avoid sales tax, for example.

1. Does this matter in this context, if I get a group of people, do the actions of the group as a whole have too follow this? It seems like an easy way out.

2. Well how about the individuals who dont pass the laws?
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Jackie Blue

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #272 on: 27 Jan 2008, 22:43 »

The key thing that you are so frustratingly missing here is that nobody is saying the Golden Rule is always followed, just that it is always a good idea.  In theory, every individual in the government who is involved in creating laws should not create laws that they themself would not follow, if they're following the Golden Rule.
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John Curtin

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #273 on: 28 Jan 2008, 00:04 »

It isn't always a good idea.  It is unable to resolve situations where there are two second parties with competing interests.

Here's an example that is perhaps one of the "classic" ethical quandaries.  A woman is pregnant.  A doctor examines her and discovers that for, whatever reason, if the foetus is not aborted the mother will certainly die.  Who is the "other" of the golden rule here?  The mother or the foetus?  Unless the mother is genuinely willing to sacrifice her life to give the child a chance of survival, the golden rule paralyses the doctor by stating that the child must be aborted, otherwise the mother will die, and the child must not be aborted because that would be destroying the child's life.

Alternatively, it is not a "good idea" when one is dealing with a definitely morally culpable person.  Say you are (for whatever reason) in a position to obstruct the plans of a person who is bent on committing a series of murders.  If you were to obstruct his actions, you would be causing him displeasure.  Of course, if you didn't obstruct him, you'd be causing displeasure to his victims.  There are two answers to this:

Firstly, one could be overly legalistic and say that obstruction is an act and failure to obstruct is a mere omission, but that's just stupid and wanky.

Alternatively, though, if we say that we're going to require you to stop the murderer because, although you're causing him displeasure, you're preventing far greater displeasure on the part of the victims and so we ignore the displeasure of the murderer.  Which in this case most people would agree with as being the moral course of action; however, we've now replaced the golden rule with utilitarianism which has its own difficulties.  Aside from the fact that it requires one to assess the quantity of potential happiness to be caused by any course of action, it creates a kind of sanctification of "happiness" or "pleasure" as being the most important consideration in any situation.

This obviously applies equally to the golden rule.  The fact that we've all seemed to agree that taxes are a "good thing" and that we ought to pay them, despite the displeasure they bring us, suggests that we agree that happiness isn't the ultimate consideration.  Perhaps part of the problem is that "happiness" does not describe a single kind of emotion - it ranges from satisfaction to ecstasy, which I submit differ not only in degree but in character.  You can't compare them in any sense that "if I make six people content then that is worth one ecstatic person", much in the same way you can't say "sonata form is worth the same as the theory of relativity".

Anyway I'm not proposing to solve the problem of ethics in an internet forum thread; it's just a good thing to consider.  There is no perfect ethical framework; the golden rule is just as practicable on an everyday basis as utilitarianism or deontology or any other kind of popular ethical system.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #274 on: 28 Jan 2008, 00:17 »

If I was that doctor then I'd leave the decision entirely in the hands of the woman, since that's what I'd want a doctor to do if I or anyone I knew was in the same position. If I was the person who knew that someone was about to commit a series of murders then I would stop them because if I was about to commit a series of murders I really hope somebody would stop me before I did it. The golden rule doesn't stipulate that you should never do anything which will cause displeasure but that you should act in a way that you hope people would act towards you in the same situation. It doesn't bind you to inaction or even pacifism at all.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #275 on: 28 Jan 2008, 00:22 »

In the first instance, if you were a foetus would you wish to be aborted if your mother made the decision rather than the doctor?

In the second case, I was demonstrating how redefining (as Zerodrone did) the rule as "do that which does not cause displeasure" creates new problems and replaces the rule with utilitarianism.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #276 on: 28 Jan 2008, 00:32 »

I wouldn't wish anything in the first instance, it's a foetus. In some bizarre hypothetical universe where that was possible then of course I would, it's my mum.

Fair enough in the second case, but the example falls apart as being problematic as soon as you go back to the original definition.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #277 on: 28 Jan 2008, 00:42 »

So, wait, you'd be ok with the idea of your mother having you killed?  If that's the case, more power to you, but I'd say there are enough people who would have a few problems with that for it to not be dismissed as statistically insignificant.  Understand that I'm not putting forward my own ideas on abortion here; I'm just providing an example of how the golden rule fails where there are competing interests that can't both be satisfied.  The specifics of the situation needn't matter: consider a case of conjoined twins, one of whom must be killed in order for the other to survive.  The golden rule isn't a useful idea to help decide which one will live.

And the reason zerodrone altered the definition was to avoid the problems with the original definition that we'd already been through.  Neither the golden rule nor utilitarianism are without major problems.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #278 on: 28 Jan 2008, 00:55 »

The golden rule isn't the only useful thing in the situation of those conjoined twins but it's still relevant. For example, as in your abortion example it would lead me to leave that decision entirely in the hands of the twins. For the twins themselves it could lead each to not be selfish and to decide who should live based on who has the best chance of survival, or possibly using a method based on a 50/50 probability depending on what they'd want the other to do for them. There's more there than the golden rule but it promotes pretty reasonable activity in a situation like that. You wouldn't want your brother to sneakily ensure that they were the one to live by some underhand method, but you might want them to be selfless so that could be the route you go down.

I disagree that anything mentioned so far necessitates changing 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' to 'do not cause displeasure in others'.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #279 on: 28 Jan 2008, 01:00 »

There's a hidden premise in your first problem that states that the fetus is in fact a moral agent and a "child". All we have to do is deny this and the decision is simple. We abort the fetus. If I had a fatally parasitic organism attached to me I'd damn well desire for it to be removed.

Re: your second dilemma, your definition of utilitarianism is a juvenile one that makes no distinction between the displeasure of a murderer finding out that he can't kill people and the displeasure of a person who is being murdered. There is no dilemma at all, unless you do not understand utilitarianism. The notion that a murderer's pleasure can be of greater weight than the pain of the murdered is so daft as to be offensive.

The golden rule requires a measure of empathy. That a masochist might enjoy being hurt, he's still expected to understand that he is exceptional, and can't make an excuse that he'd want to be hurt when he's hurting others.
« Last Edit: 28 Jan 2008, 01:07 by Kid van Pervert »
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #280 on: 28 Jan 2008, 03:06 »

Thanks, Kid and pack, because I was getting really tired of these ridiuclous examples.

The abortion one has been addressed well enough, especially given that it is reductio ad absurdum, and that's being kind.

The "murderer" situation is reducable to one simple axiom:  The Golden Rule works both ways.

The murderer is saying "I will do unto others whatever I want without regard to their feelings".  Thus, according to the Golden Rule, it is okay to do unto him whatever you want without regard to his feelings.

In other words: "Do unto others" (murder them) "as you would have them do unto you" (get murdered, you fuck).
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #281 on: 28 Jan 2008, 05:06 »

Ah, good old consequentialism! How I have missed you (not really.) The problem with consequentialism (and utilitarianism, which is just a form of consequentialism) is that it places too much of a burden on the individual actor, because they're supposed to consider all the implications of possible actions for every action, which is just absurd - expecting someone to sit down and work out which of many possible actions would be the most beneficial would be paralyzing, even if it were possible to calculate an arithmetic of happiness.
My approach to this is basically a combination of rule-following and satisficing behaviour - basically, most of the time, act in accordance to the general rule, only breaking it where necessary, and strive to ensure happiness, but not necessarily maximise it. If you're following the golden rule, only break it in extreme circumstances, and if you have to do, do so in a manner that increases happiness by the optimal amount you can afford to, rather than the maximum you can. (Maximising happiness would require you, for example, to forswear all material goods over and above those necessary for survival, because of diminishing marginal utility.)
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #282 on: 28 Jan 2008, 05:54 »

If you're following the golden rule, only break it in extreme circumstances, and if you have to do, do so in a manner that increases happiness by the optimal amount you can afford to, rather than the maximum you can.

I think that those of us arguing in favor of the Golden Rule are the ones agreeing with this statement, and the people trying to find holes in the Golden Rule are the ones who are attempting to assert that one should somehow magically take into account every possible piece of data in the equation.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #283 on: 28 Jan 2008, 06:15 »

I think we've misunderstood my intent somehow, even though I've tried to make it pretty clear throughout the discussion that I'm not saying the golden rule sucks and should be ridiculed and abandoned; rather I have been merely trying to show how it's not perfect and doesn't work in every situation.  The abortion example isn't reductio ad absurdum because, firstly, I'm not at all trying to say that because it doesn't work in that situation it never works (which would be a fallacy; I've not used any fallacy since I've not made any conclusion beyond 'the golden rule isn't useful in this particular situation'), and secondly, it's not an absurd example since it's a fairly everyday kind of situation that many people find themselves in.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #284 on: 28 Jan 2008, 06:23 »

The abortion example is reductio ad absurdum because we currently have no evidence that a fetus has consciousness or desires, so to argue that one needs to take them into account is getting into cuckoo land.

Please, please don't turn this thread down the abortion path.  There be dragons.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #285 on: 28 Jan 2008, 06:38 »

What he said, with the addition that all of your examples have had the golden rule applied to them as a device for determining a course of action extremely easily.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #286 on: 28 Jan 2008, 15:06 »

The abortion example is reductio ad absurdum because we currently have no evidence that a fetus has consciousness or desires, so to argue that one needs to take them into account is getting into cuckoo land.

Please, please don't turn this thread down the abortion path.  There be dragons.

  • 1.  I'm not trying to turn this into an abortion debate.  It was a demonstrative example and I really don't care what you think about the morality of abortion.  If you really want my opinion of what would be the appropriate course of action just ask ok but it's totally irrelevant here.
  • 2.  Might like to consider that we currently have no evidence that God exists but that didn't stop us discussing that for the majority of the thread.  At least we know a fetus probably will have a consciousness sometime in the future if we don't kill it.  Surely the golden rule is about the potential happiness that will result from a course of action?
  • 3.  Let's reject the example and consider the conjoined twins example properly.  The only 'extremely easy' answer given was to ask the twins to decide for themselves.  Seriously, what the hell.  They're newborn babies for a start and thus have no powers of communication, and secondly how is it ethical to ask someone to decide to kill their brother or sister?  Are they to use the golden rule?  How do they use the golden rule here?
  • 4.  Once again, i quite like the golden rule.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #287 on: 28 Jan 2008, 15:30 »

If you like the Golden Rule, then stop trying to dissect it with extreme situational examples and endless chains of "what if".

"We" have no "evidence" that "God" exists?  I'm sorry, I'll tell the billions of people on the planet who have had personal spiritual and/or religious experiences that they don't count since they didn't have them under a microscope.

Compare that to how many people have ever claimed to remember anything before the age of 1 or so.

No offense, but this debate has been stupid for a whole page now.  It's gotten to the point of saying something like "Oh, you think murder is bad?  Well what about murdering Hitler before he started World War 2, huh?"

In other words, the only thing standing between your arguments and Godwin's Law is a proper noun.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #288 on: 28 Jan 2008, 15:37 »

Ironically, now we've been Godwinned.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #289 on: 28 Jan 2008, 15:42 »

Yes, I did that on purpose.  I was using Godwin for good, not evil.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #290 on: 28 Jan 2008, 16:10 »

"We" have no "evidence" that "God" exists?  I'm sorry, I'll tell the billions of people on the planet who have had personal spiritual and/or religious experiences that they don't count since they didn't have them under a microscope.
AD POPULUM NYUH NYUH NYUH
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #291 on: 28 Jan 2008, 16:16 »

  • 3.  Let's reject the example and consider the conjoined twins example properly.  The only 'extremely easy' answer given was to ask the twins to decide for themselves.  Seriously, what the hell.  They're newborn babies for a start and thus have no powers of communication, and secondly how is it ethical to ask someone to decide to kill their brother or sister?  Are they to use the golden rule?  How do they use the golden rule here?

You didn't say they were babies, since we're discussing morality I presumed you were talking about moral agents. I've already explained very well how the golden rule could be applied in that situation. I also fail to see an ethical problem in leaving matters of life and death in the hands of those it will most directly effect. I do see an ethical problem in other people taking over and making those decisions for them.

For your new example of them being babies it's simple. Let's presume a doctor is to make the decision. She picks the baby with the best chance of survival. Why? Because if in that situation herself she'd hope her doctor was a compassionate, unbiased woman and act accordingly.

Your examples don't seem to hinge on a problem with the golden rule but rather a problem with an action which results in something you define as death as ever being able to be a moral one.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #292 on: 28 Jan 2008, 16:17 »

Nope, not Ad Populum, as I wasn't saying that "God" exists because billions of people think he/it does.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #293 on: 28 Jan 2008, 16:23 »

Still, the sentiment seems shaky to me. Is it the sheer number of religious experiences that make them valid evidence in a discussion about God?
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #294 on: 28 Jan 2008, 16:34 »

Well, yes, just as the sheer number of people who like a certain band make it interesting for them to discuss said band.

Not seeing the problem here.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #295 on: 28 Jan 2008, 16:41 »

It's a lot easier to discuss something that billions of people have experience and feelings about. It is hard to find people who remember being conscious as a fetus. Not saying that it proves or negates either. Just that it's definitely easier.
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Edible

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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #296 on: 28 Jan 2008, 20:45 »

Yes, I did that on purpose.  I was using Godwin for good, not evil.


I think this is arguably grounds for Quirk's exception...

And can we all agree that the golden rule is overall a good idea and should be followed, but like all rules is not entirely infalliable please?

"Oh, you think murder is bad?  Well what about murdering Hitler before he started World War 2, huh?"

We get c&c Red Alert : )
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #297 on: 29 Jan 2008, 04:43 »

This thread is basically what happens at a party when you get drunken philosophy students together - I am pretty sure that I had this exact conversation last night, with the addition of talking about the IRA and slightly more atheism involved.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #298 on: 29 Jan 2008, 08:10 »

And can we all agree that the golden rule is overall a good idea and should be followed, but like all rules is not entirely infalliable please?

We're not saying it's infallible, we're arguing that it's difficult to logically refute.
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Re: Folk Music and the Environment
« Reply #299 on: 29 Jan 2008, 11:54 »

"We" have no "evidence" that "God" exists?  I'm sorry, I'll tell the billions of people on the planet who have had personal spiritual and/or religious experiences that they don't count since they didn't have them under a microscope.

We have no evidence that werewolves, vampires, dragons, elves, fairies, unicorns or griffins exist either, but I could find you a fair number of people who think they ARE one.

Their spiritual experiences count to them, of course, but they can hardly be used to establish empirical truth. For a start, if you were to collate them, then you would get such a contradictory picture of the divine that you'd make high gnosticism look like a crossword puzzle. We're not just talking koan shit here either.

Who was it who said something along the lines of "Isn't it funny how God always tells people exactly what they believe?"
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