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[ackblom12]

http://dnd4.com/rumors

This page has much of the info that has been released as well some speculation concerning the changes being made.

Personally, I'm pretty excited for the new edition and am looking forward to seeing how it turns out. I like the idea of Talent Trees rather than Feats especially, and the changing of certain Core Races and Classes is to be expected with a new Edition. Also, simplifying grappling will make certain players so much easier to deal with.

So come in and discuss this so I can stop accidentally bringing it up in improper threads.



Official Release date for the 3 Core Books is June 6th. There is also an adventure coming out in May that is basically going to be a lvl 1 - 3 Demo Dungeon introducing the new rules and mechanics if you are so interested called "Keep on the Shadowfell".

[Dimmukane]

I'm fairly psyched.  Although, my usual DM made a few of these rule changes on his own...still.  Looking forward to it.  Have any of you seen the movie Gamerz?

[OnewingedAngel]

"The Shadow?!"

Personally, as a player I am highly against the game. I dislike the rule changes. It's gone from a somewhat challenging game to any 13 year old with  a basic grasp of writing and reading skills can play. It takes away the patience aspect. It is now a pen and paper video game. Somebody bring back THACO.

[Alex C]

Ugh. I hate THAC0 and everything it stands for. I grew up with it and all, but 2nd Edition AD&D and previous systems were terrible in many respects. The base combat rules were extremely simplistic which would be fine if it weren't for the fact that the Fighter is standing right there and combat is all he does. It's exactly what led to a metric ton of increasingly ridiculous supplements being released as well as players coming up with tons of goony houserules like critical fumbles that would cause a master swordsman to have a 5% chance to kick his own ass with any given swing. Plus, I seem to remember playing 2nd Edition AD&D; I was 13 at the time, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say it could still be played by 13 year olds, 'cuz I sure as hell wasn't gifted.

[SevenPinkerton]

I'm just annoyed that new editions come out so frequently. I couldn't even afford to buy the last one. But eventually everyone will be using the new system and it'll be needed.

[Alex C]

I can agree with that; the whole 3rd->3.5->4th thing was certain to ruffle a lot of feathers. My old group pooled books together to keep it from being such a huge issue, but honestly, with three overhauls within the span of a decade it's like Wizards is daring people to pirate the damned things.

[Dimmukane]

And I just found out my DM's birthday is June 6th.  I know what I'll be getting him...

[Narr]

"There will be no d20 System Trademark License for 4th edition."

They're removing d20 from Dungeons and Dragons?

Looks like I'm using 3.5 for a couple years longer.  I have a strong feeling 4th edition is going to flop because they are taking out what makes D&D, D&D.

How the FUCK can you have the nerve to remove Red Wizards?  I'm pretty pissed about this, I have to say.  I don't even own that many of the books, but I liked how things were.  The leap from AD&D to 3rd edition didn't change things too much because really, thac0 and +hit bonuses work out the same.  This is just... it's not D&D.

[bryanthelion]

I'm really psyched.

They're streamlining the fuck out of things and making it easier for newbies to grasp. I play with mostly new people, I think I'm the only veteran (Well, my barbarian played with her family. and my ranger played with me when I first dm'ed, when I didn't know ANY rules (I didnt even know about base attack bonuses back then))


Also, I like the character adjustments. I was disappointed at first that the gnome got kicked out of the PHB, then I meditated on it and decided that, the Halfling needed a better identity. It was too similar to the Gnome's personality.

Also, "conversation battles" are supposed to be better.

[Spluff]

I liked the idea of the online component, but when I saw 'subscription' I threw up in my mouth a little.

[Bearer]

As my friend and previous DM said once

V4 is what I can use with anyone new playing the game, but 3.5 is what I can bust out with my totally nerd-core friends

I'd have to have a better gasp on all the subtleties of the game to make judgment on anything in the new system, but what I don't like personally is that it might go online.  Also, from what I understand, they're taking the game and changing it to be more friendly to people comming off of World of Warcraft (like dumbing down the rules and such).  I'm all for simplifying things, don't get me wrong, but, I guess I'll have to look at the final product.

[KvP]

Keeping with 3.5 was not an option for Wizards. They make the majority of their money from core books, and at this point most every DM has all the books they need from 3.5 (I know I do) and they aren't making any money at all from supplements. And with WoW pinching the time of fantasy nerds everywhere they can't be seen to stagnate if they want to remain at the vanguard of the RPG niche going into the future.

[MusicScribbles]

The problem with most of this stuff is that it's just rumors, right? So, I'm still a bit excited for this. Anything that simplifies combat and all for me is a lot nicer. When it comes to tabletop roleplaying, I'm into the roleplaying bit by a much larger margin. Anything that lets me as a DM have more/easier control over the world we're playing in is a plus for that game, which is why I've been playing some of the Old World of Darkness games recently. I would like to get back to playing D&D, it's my old stomping ground.

[ackblom12]

They're removing d20 from Dungeons and Dragons?

I'm not sure how you got that out of it. I'm pretty certain it just means you'll no longer require a license when producing you're own system that involves similar mechanics.

I also strongly suspect there will be a free version of the online component made available through 3rd parties relatively soon.

Also, if you want to get into the subscription cost of the online component, you're also getting access to the new Dungeons and the Dragons magazine both, as well as the online board and atever else they're going to be using. Wel, worth it if you want something a little more made for the occasion when you have gaming buddies no longer at home.

Scribbles hit it right on the head for me, in that my main enjoyment from this is that they are simplifying combat from the piece of shit clunky ass goliath that 3.0 and 3.5 made out of it. Just like with 3rd and 4th, if you choose to move on to it you can always home rule things, it just looks like I won't be home ruling in combat anywhere near as much if it does half the things it claims.

Also, Narr, Feats alone changed the entire face of D&D into a munchkin gaming wet dream. 3rd Ed was a huge change from 2nd Ed. This seems to be more streamlining and making the campaign settings their own.

I also think people are tossing the online portion way too far. Wizards is not going to force anyone online if that's what people are thinking. I'm probably not going to be using it much, but I don't se why anyone wouold be weary of having the option of a officially supported online game session room.

[Alex C]

I have the soul of pretty hardcore rules lawyer. Thick books and big tables of numbers don't scare me much. I have a rather perverse love for sifting through all those pages and wrapping my mind around the nuances of any given system. I like playing around with the numbers, coming up with munchkiny characters, breaking systems and getting an idea of how to get the most results with the least effort. For god's sake, I've created characters for Shadowrun 4 using excel sheets with the express purpose of tinkering with Build Point-to-Karma ratios in order to figure out the quickest way I can get to X dicepool after Y runs assuming Z Karma per session.

But you know what? Even I realize that none of that crap would make for a better game if it weren't for the fact that I GM rather than play. The idea that it takes a seriously demented person like me to actually -enjoy- some of the crap GMs have to put up with at times isn't some kind of virtue for a game system. I've learned that nine times out of ten "dumbing things down" equals "trimming deadweight," since a lot of the detail in any given system won't lead to meaningful decisions being made. I'm really excited about ideas like more weapon specific abilities and maneuvers because I'd rather see a Fighter take a blunt weapons feat because he'll gain meaningful new tricks in his repertoire rather than just have his bases covered if the random loot table coughs up a +2 Mace. If that takes dumbing down the rules, then so be it. I can always mentally fap off to GURPS character sheets later.

[bryanthelion]

I'm really pumped for online components. I have alot of online friends, and playing DnD with them over the net (using voice chat) would be extremely fun!

[Bearer]

That would be awesome actually.  I could totally see a 2D virtual game board, like a grid, where the "DM" would have control over where to put things and all the calculations.  He could have a mute button for everyone else like when things get out of hand (as they often do), and instead of rendered monsters and characters as markers on th grid, it could just be jpgs of bottlecaps, extra dice, crumpled paper and other various thing's we've used to represent us, but the way it was portrayed in the video I saw, it looked more like a turn-based video game being played.  I don't now, maybe I'm just a little skeptical of further distancing ourselves from other human beings for a form of entertainment.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXuMb6WWw

[ackblom12]

I don't really see how it looks like a video game outside of it being a digital form of what you'd be using a map for (assuming you do) in the first place.

Really, no one is going to be using it regularly unless the group you play with can't play  in meatlife anymore, in which case it would be awesome.

[bryanthelion]

Actually, I might use it.

I dont like the idea of hauling miniatures everywhere with me. That and buying a fuckload just to get 3 koblods. I know you guys are thinking "Just use a piece of paper.." But I'm a purist. It must be uniform.

[Alex C]

Shit, I'm just excited by the fact that a decent well-supported online play system means that maybe I could actually just play for once. The potential this thing has for people simply to break out of their ruts and try their hand with a different group for once to see what it's like is immense.

[Narr]

Making the system work online is a good change, for that reason.

But overall, I'm highly dissapointed.  D&D isn't going to be nerdcore anymore.  That bothers me.  Half the reason I enjoyed D&D was the sheer difficulty of it.  The only reason people constantly yell "BUFF FIGHTERS" is because they are too retarded to learn the nuances of D&D's core, magic.  They just want to run up and hit things without thinking about spell balance, item balance, without actually having to outthink their opponent.

I guess I'll just have to leave this as a wait-and-see type of thing.  The fact they are removing D&D's classic spell system again also pisses me the fuck off.  Different levels of spells, memorizing every day what you wanted to be able to do?  That's half the joy of wizardry.

[Catfish_Man]

Making the system work online is a good change, for that reason.

But overall, I'm highly dissapointed.  D&D isn't going to be nerdcore anymore.  That bothers me.  Half the reason I enjoyed D&D was the sheer difficulty of it.  The only reason people constantly yell "BUFF FIGHTERS" is because they are too retarded to learn the nuances of D&D's core, magic.  They just want to run up and hit things without thinking about spell balance, item balance, without actually having to outthink their opponent.

I guess I'll just have to leave this as a wait-and-see type of thing.  The fact they are removing D&D's classic spell system again also pisses me the fuck off.  Different levels of spells, memorizing every day what you wanted to be able to do?  That's half the joy of wizardry.

Your friends don't know how to play fighters. Apparently, neither do you.

[ackblom12]

I'll second that.

[Alex C]

I do like Power Attack, Cleave and Power Lunge though.  If a Barbarian/Fighter who pulls out those bad boys with a two handed sword, some Rage, and a charge attack, odds are somebody's gonna die.

[MusicScribbles]

I have the soul of pretty hardcore rules lawyer. Thick books and big tables of numbers don't scare me much. I have a rather perverse love for sifting through all those pages and wrapping my mind around the nuances of any given system. I like playing around with the numbers, coming up with munchkiny characters, breaking systems and getting an idea of how to get the most results with the least effort.

You are not spending enough time planning for the inevitable zombie outbreak.

[Narr]

Your friends don't know how to play fighters. Apparently, neither do you.

Tell me something I don't know about fighters, then.

Grapple checks?  Knockdowns?  Bull rushes?  Whirlwind attacks?  Arrows?

Fighters hit things until they die.  End of story.  No tricks.  The only tricks they have is in their equipment and their potions.  It is impossible to play a fighter and beat any caster that's worth a lick of salt.  Planning on trying to cripple me in melee somehow?  Good luck actually hitting through  my thousands of mirror images, buffed armor class, and damage reduction.  Going to try and dispel my stuff through the use of an item?  That's too bad; I've got a spell mantle or two up that'll absorb it.  Actually, fuck all that.  I'll just Dire Charm you right away to make you MY meatshield.

Don't tell me I don't know how to play a fighter.  That's pretty insulting.

The way Pen and Paper is designed, you're pretty much only supposed to have one significant encounter a day.  Fighters are nice buff targets for a party or good to take a few levels in if you want some quick fighter-oriented feats, but that's the end of their purpose.  They're good for campaigns where you slog through lots of meat, as well, because they have longer battle endurance than casters.  I'd still just rather have a cleric or druid tanking, however.

[Alex C]

I just dislike your core conceit that people want to play fighters because they don't want to think. I mean, the game's called the grandpappy of hack 'n' slash RPGs, the genre is often called swords and sorcery and warriors are at least as iconic as wizards. It's perfectly understandable that there's some people out there want to do some cool shit that isn't overtly magical in theme, and there is no reason whatsoever they couldn't make playing a dedicated melee character a more involved process, and I know from experience that you can tone down magic a fair bit and still strike a great balance between mages being indispensable despite close combat specialists doing a lot of the heavy lifting in the fighting department (thanks Conan OGL RPG!).

[ackblom12]

Don't tell me I don't know how to play a fighter.  That's pretty insulting.

You might take you're own advice and not be insulting towards those who enjoy playing a melee oriented class.

[Narr]

All I'm saying is that the people screaming buff fighters are the same types of people screaming to buff warriors in World of Warcraft.  Sorry I don't find any ingenuity in it.  I'm not going to say they aren't necessary in many cases, but I really wish Wizards of the Coast wouldn't try to shake things up by turning D&D into a pen-and-paper Mumorperger, where everything needs to be balanced so no one feels left out of the loop by not being as powerful as someone else.

edit: For the record, I've probably played more rogues or paladins than any other character in D&D.

Addendum:  I've been talking with a friend about this, and he summed up my feelings better than I could.  "This looks like it's no longer a world you play a game in, but a game you play a world in."

[ackblom12]

So... basically,

"It's broken and I'm used to it, so why are bothering to try and fix it?"

[Narr]

No.

Basically, it's supposed to be a hostile world where every dice count is against you and only those who can think on their feet and plan ahead survive.  That is being removed.  They are turning it into a pen and paper MMORPG.

[Alex C]

You don't know if the need for planning is being removed. You know that they're rebranding things and putting an emphasis on class skills/abilities and roles rather than magical equipment and perhaps spells as we currently think of them. While some of the terms and concepts they're using, like "Aggro" and warriors being used as "tanks" for example, clearly draw some inspiration from MMORPGs (and vice versa, might I add), the rest of what you're saying is rank speculation. Certainly the "Per encounter, Per Day and At Will" designations for how often you can use some abilities implies that there will still be some level of planning and risk vs. reward involved.

[MusicScribbles]

When 4th edition comes out I will go to my nearest retailer stocking the item and read through it. Surely, complaining about what we do not know for sure is fruitless, eh?

[ackblom12]

I really don't see how you're coming to that conclusion based on them rebalancing the classes. Especially since most of the changes revealed for the Fighter have been tactical balancing and making them relevant in higher levels and we don't KNOW how the wizard is being changed around yet, with the exception of their magic "memorization" being changed up.

How the game goes (especially the feel of the game) is still going to be dependent on the choices the players make, as well as how the DM handles the campaign and story.

[Narr]

All I can say is that all my D&D friends think the changes for 4th edition are the beginning of the end.

Changing spell memorization removes the very soul of D&D for me.  The fact they are straight-up removing spell circles is mind-boggling.  They seriously might as well erase the d20 system while they're at it, as long as they are going to change the very nature of magic.

I don't know how you can be happy with that.

As I've said, they are making a game that a world happens to exist in, instead of making a world in which you can play a game.

[ackblom12]

As I've said, they are making a game that a world happens to exist in, instead of making a world in which you can play a game.

Ok, since the rest of your quote is simply personal preference, this is what I'll focus on.

What the hell are you talking about.

Part of what makes the worlds in D&D worlds, rather than just game environments, is the huge amount of history of the worlds that have been put into them by TSR, Wizards and even individual DM's. The interaction of the players, your imagination and the DM's ability to convey a story will always be the most important part of what makes it a thriving world that you just happen to be playing a game in though, and I can't see how the hell a new edition would suddenly make you stop any of that.

[frunK]

My friend introduced me to whitewolf's Story Telling Adventure System(world of darkness, vampire, warewolf) and I've given up on anything Wizards of the Coast puts out. Dungeons and Dragons has become a convoluted clusterfuck of contradicting rulebooks, and every time i've played somebody has stalled the game by arguing about some stupid rule.
ST system however

"I want to shoot the guy from the motercycle"
"okay your drive is 2 and your firearms is 3. roll 5d10 dificulty is 8"
"6 7 5 4 10"
"one success. you shoot him. roll damage"

SIMPLE! and everything works like that! WotC has stopped giving a shit about its fans and only cares about punping out two or three new books a month, no matter what BS is inside.

[Alex C]

Ah yes, the floating TN systems. The history of those things will never cease to amuse me. Check this out:

"Point of historical trivia - Shadowrun, 1st Edition, was designed originally as a d10 system using the same dice-rolling scheme. Very late in the design process a decision was made to change the dice to d6s because... and I think my memory is still clear on this - "... you can buy six-sided dice at a drugstore..." --Tom Dowd

Incidentally, Tom Dowd later moved on to White Wolf, who basically adopted the d10 version of the Shadowrun's primary dice mechanic for their Storyteller system wholesale. The hilarious part is that Shadowrun basically screwed the simplicity of the system up in many ways-- it was a wonderfully easy mechanic to use, even in d6 form, but they then proceeded to use several different mechanics in other areas and boatloads of equipment with minor modifiers, leading to SR gaining a rep for being too crunch-heavy while V:TM went on to become an unmitigated success. The important point to keep in mind here though, is that whether a game is strong or not thematically (since, love 'em or hate 'em, Shadowrun, Earthdawn & V:TM have pretty vivid histories), is largely independent of their mechanics.

[Narr]

Ok, since the rest of your quote is simply personal preference, this is what I'll focus on.

What the hell are you talking about.

Part of what makes the worlds in D&D worlds, rather than just game environments, is the huge amount of history of the worlds that have been put into them by TSR, Wizards and even individual DM's. The interaction of the players, your imagination and the DM's ability to convey a story will always be the most important part of what makes it a thriving world that you just happen to be playing a game in though, and I can't see how the hell a new edition would suddenly make you stop any of that.

Wizards are being nerfed.  Magic is being nerfed.

Magic is being nerfed.

Magic is being nerfed.

Magic is being nerfed.

Magic is being nerfed.

What part of this do you not understand?  How can I make it anymore clear to you that they are designing an MMO style game with the whole class system everyone-has-his-defined role deal they are planning on?  It'll just be Team Fortress 2 with dice instead of running and jumping and shooting.  I don't want, and while I can respect Wizard's desire to make the game more accessible to more people, it ruins the very nature of D&D for me.  Hybrids are half the fun.  Worlds like the Forgotten Realms are dependent on the fact magic is ungodly powerful and cripples mere men.  You take that out so wizards have a defined role as some long ranged damage class instead of masters of all that is the arcane and I resist that because it undermines what I stand for as a gamer.  It offends my design philosophy as to what a true RPG really is, which really bothers me because D&D is what imbued my feelings within me.

If this still makes absolutely no sense to you, then let's just drop it before I get unreasonably angry.

[supersheep]

I'm not really a D&D player, but I can see why they might want to do that - a very similar thing happened with Warhammer 40K between 2nd and 3rd edition. See, people have a tendency to go for the overly powerful characters. If wizards are so damn powerful, then they have to be very rare - not the kind of thing you'd see in every adventuring party, but only in climactic life or death things. In 40K, you'd have people fielding all the heroes of their race in a tiny battle, backed up with the creme de la creme of the hard troops - which is not really in keeping with the background of vast crazy conflicts where, powerful as they are, demigod characters are outnumbered a billion to one. If one class is so much better than everyone else, then what's the point in playing any other? Why would you want to play a fighter if you're only going to be useful for the first few levels and then after that you're a meatshield?
Then again, on the other hand, I agree with you on the background side - wizards are supposed to be masters of all that is arcane, not the guy with a magical sniper rifle. Balancing game mechanics with background is ridiculously hard.

[MusicScribbles]

Man, I don't mean to be a complete dick about my preferences, but Vampire is too angsty (You have an angst meter.) and Werewolf is about environmentalists. Hunter and Mage from Old World are where it is at.

About D&D, I can understand everything you are worried about Narr, but we should be discussing what we would like to see in 4th edition, and not what we are angry about that they are changing, because we don't know anything but rumors. I remember when I was in preschool and we played Whisper Down The Lane to learn about how rumors are spread. Please stop WHISPERING DOWN THE LANE.

[Uber Ritter]

Man, seeing this comes up reminds me of what a nerd equivilent of an indy rock asshole cliche I can be.  I hear DnD and I have a irrational reaction that makes me flee the other way.  That said, DnD does genuinely turn me off on a personal level, just like many of us are turned off by My Chemical Romance not because it's popular but because it's not our thing.  I just don't like the whole genericized fantasy world thing (though I'm given to understand that many of the alternative settings ameliorate this somewhat.)  At least I'm not the archon of my game club.  He's a cool guy but I think he does more ferretting out cool indie games then he does actual gaming, which is unfortunate because some of the games he uncovers are real gems.

[ackblom12]

I'm not seeing where they're nerfing magic at all really, but I'll leave it alone cause really, I'd like this thread not to explode.

Crit hits - I like the fact they're max damage now rather than multipliers. Besides being seemingly out of place in a system where they tried to turn everything else into simple addition and subtraction, it's not quite as game breaking along with still being a really damn good hit. I'm a little curious how they've been extended since it mentions a fireball critting during playtesting though.


Races - Really, as much as I love gnomes, I do have to agree that either they or halflings had to go to flesh out the other. Overall I think it's a good decision.

Drow look like they will be a core race for the Forgotten Realms, though they are not considered Elves anymore, they are now Fey. I also imagine they will be toned down a bit to fit the core races.

According to the rumors, a toned down Warforged is also being considered for the core book, probably to replace Half-Orcs, and I'd be pretty excited about that as well if it was confirmed.

There's tons of stuff we can be talking about, so lets do it!

[MusicScribbles]

It looks like a lot of the old 'alternative' elves are now fey. I feel like the elves are even going to be considered fey now.

[ackblom12]

I know Drow are going to be considered Fey, so it seems very likely.

[MusicScribbles]

I'm pretty interested in this new edition not because it looks like its being 'streamlined', but this is definitely more of an overhaul than there has been for a while. Reading this

Personalizing and specializing your character is amped up, it’s one of the most powerful things about 4th edition. If you’re a barbarian, you’re not a frenzied berserker. If you’re a barbarian, you’re a barbarian for your entire career. The frenzied berserker and bear warrior will be at the very end.

. What does this mean?

[KvP]

I know old players who are this close to abandoning D&D because of TSR fully embracing the munchkin races that have been so popular (tieflings & drow) even if they're going to be softened. Priorities, I suppose.

[ackblom12]

The 2nd half I think is just poorly worded. Multi-Classing is still in, so it's not a hint at the death of that.

Maybe just a bad hint at what 2 of the Barbarian style Prestige classes are?

[MusicScribbles]

Ah, I think I get it now. Even though there will be prestige classes, your barbarian 'whatever you prestige in' will still be a barbarian. Interesting.

[Narr]

Races - Really, as much as I love gnomes, I do have to agree that either they or halflings had to go to flesh out the other. Overall I think it's a good decision.

I'll disagree here for the reason that gnomes and halflings were quite different back in AD&D days.  I don't see what's so difficult about giving them a unique set of racial abilities that sets them apart from halflings, personally.  Give them the old +intelligence, -wisdom thing.

Of course, they are JUST going with + to racial stats now.  (Again, that feels like an MMO mechanism to me, making it so you'll work regardless of what you do instead of making certain races clearly defined for certain roles.)

@ MusicScribbles: I admit I like that change.  I always thought it was kind of funny fighter as a class was only there in so much that it helped you get feats faster to qualify for much better prestige classes.  It sounds like now they are going back to a more AD&D approach where you more or less "kit", which doesn't change the core of your class but adds a little extra.