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[jimbunny]

Is your proposition, Slick, that porn films have a greater influence on the decision-making of their audiences than do non-porn films? Violent and misogynist characterizations are rather prevalent in our culture. Do we have to ban them as well, because they also "make it easier for such a person to later rationalize rape when they see someone they want but can't have"? What's so special about porn?

That there's no implied judgment of the act by the film's creator; that it's a fantasy portrayed in a "realistic" manner, with either unrealistic or absent consequences... these conditions are present in widely-viewed, non-pornographic films--though very rarely in regard to rape, much more likely in regard to murder or drug use. Such actions have been successfully stripped of their psychological trauma and glamorized, escaping the stigma that still sticks to rape. In my view, a ban on such "rape fantasies" in film boils down to enforcing a moral standard.

Now, what I'm not saying is that the only reason we object to rape is the stigma attached to it; I'm firmly convinced that it's a grossly immoral act. Nor am I saying something like "I'd rather we had rape, than murder" or anything that might imply that one was worse than the other, or one more OK. But isn't there a hypocrisy in banning a simulated rape fantasy in film, when what amounts to simulated murder fantasies are commonplace? 

[ruyi]

He prefaced it with "for example," so I'm guessing that's not necessarily his personal view but rather just a demonstration of what would constitute a valid argument.

[Fenriswolf]

I'm going to do YET ANOTHER half-arsed half-drunken post (dammit, this is a terrible habit) and simply say: I have discussed these topics with myself so much I don't even know where to start any more. It seems intuitive to me that sometimes rape is realistic in films and sometimes it seems to be for the gratification of sick fuckers and those who don't know it any better. It seems intuitive to me that if we're not going to talk about sex in a candid manner with our kids and if it's going to be "naughty" and "dirty" culturally, and if the whole men-always-want-sex while women-have-to-be-tricked stereotypes are going to be continually shoved down our throats and then if on top of that mainstream porn is gonna be extremely objectifying, borderline violent and apparently no fun for anyone then it's going to create some fucked up ideas about sex in our youth.

And yeah, a large percentage of women have been raped. I would go so far as to say most women have been sexually assaulted in at least a minor way. Sex crimes are almost impossible to convict. Habitually women are disbelieved and judged when they report their attack. It's everywhere, it's not just bogeymen, and we seem to spend most of our time going "la la la I can't heeeear you".  So of course with a backdrop like that glorified sexual violence is really fucked up

That is all


P.S. Don't think I'm getting all offended over here, I'm rather enjoying the debate. Mostly I'm just a bit frustrated at my own inability to gather my thoughts. Siiiiigh

[jimbunny]

He prefaced it with "for example," so I'm guessing that's not necessarily his personal view but rather just a demonstration of what would constitute a valid argument.

You're right--I think I jumped the gun a little. Sorry about that.

So, then, not so much at Slick anymore (certainly not so argumentatively), but I think my point still stands.

...Of course, saying "my point stands" is a bit ridiculous in the face of anyone's personal experience with rape--I guess such is the case with any debate, really. Keeping an eye for the reality of the issue, it's prevalence in society, and our own ignorance to the facts and their effects (and if we are so fortunate as to be so ignorant, to the experience itself) is a vital part of such an argument. However, discussions about something even one remove from rape itself can and unavoidably will be complicated by a number of social and cultural issues and values.

[RedLion]

This argument is ridiculous.

Rape is one of the very few things where there's no moral gray area. It's bad. It's never acceptable. It shouldn't have a place in porn, because it's being fairly "realistically" depicted.

End.

[Barmymoo]

Without trying to support either argument, can I introduce the fact that banning something doesn't get rid of it, it just drives it underground and out of the way of official control? Like, for example, prohibition or prostitution.

I'm not saying that banning rape scenes is a bad idea, or that it's a good idea for that matter. Just something to consider, maybe.

[Oli]

The argument isn't about whether rape has a moral grey area. I'm entirely confident that nobody on here is ever going to try to argue that point.
 
I entirely agree that rape should not have a place in porn; infact it shouldn't have a place anywhere. However simulated rape scenes in porn are, by definition, not rape.  Even if it's being depicted as realistically as possible the actress and actor will have consented (unless of course you are watching a video of an actual rape, but let's assume you're not). This means that you can argue about the abhorrance of rape till you're blue in the face and you still won't be addressing the issue.

The argument here is about whether or not anyone has the right to restrict what rational adults are allowed to view, and without any real evidence pointing towards a causal link (note: not a correlation, also note: there are literally hundreds of studies that conclude there is - almost definitely - not a causal link) between previously well adjusted people watching "rape" pornography and going on to rape women I'm going to say that nobody has any right to tell me what I can and cannot watch or do in private.

And if you're going to ban any kind of porn on the basis that it promotes sexism and the idea of women as objects you're going to have to ban a complete fuckload of TV.

p.s. This post wasn't directed at red lion, just as a response to his post. We can still be homies, dogg.

[0bsessions]

[Fenriswolf]

Without trying to support either argument, can I introduce the fact that banning something doesn't get rid of it, it just drives it underground and out of the way of official control? Like, for example, prohibition or prostitution.

I'm not saying that banning rape scenes is a bad idea, or that it's a good idea for that matter. Just something to consider, maybe.

See, I agree with the argument but it's simply not applicable in this case IMO. I think the fact that rape is tacitly acceptable according to the mainstream conciousness (ie: everyone knows rape is awful but it's not rape if she was a prostitute/she was drunk/she consented to act a but not act b) puts us in a position of not being able to be wishy washy when it comes to things like this

The argument isn't about whether rape has a moral grey area. I'm entirely confident that nobody on here is ever going to try to argue that point.

Well you're possibly over-optimistic as you can find arguments about rape being a grey area in pretty much all areas of the internet that pause to discuss rape. Seriously

And if you're going to ban any kind of porn on the basis that it promotes sexism and the idea of women as objects you're going to have to ban a complete fuckload of TV.

I'm not sure how you get from banning pornography that clearly depicts rape to banning objectifying movies/whatever. Really I'm not 

I entirely agree that rape should not have a place in porn; infact it shouldn't have a place anywhere. However simulated rape scenes in porn are, by definition, not rape.  Even if it's being depicted as realistically as possible the actress and actor will have consented (unless of course you are watching a video of an actual rape, but let's assume you're not). This means that you can argue about the abhorrance of rape till you're blue in the face and you still won't be addressing the issue.

Well the whole point is that it's marketed to people who are aroused by the victim's struggles and fear - not something I personally see as acceptable. I cannot possibly see that people who wish to be involved in rape scenarios as the victim would relate to pornography of such.

[Elizzybeth]

You really think people who are turned on by victimization wouldn't be interested in rape porn?  I thought that was kind of the whole point of the whole sub part of the sub/dom scene, what with roleplaying and the lolita movement and safe words.

I agree with you that real rape is unacceptable under any circumstances, but I think criminalizing people who watch rape porn is an unhealthy move as a society--if roleplaying rape scenarios is 100% legal, why should watching porn of such scenarios (which were filmed legally, with consenting actors) be illegal?  And again, as other people have mentioned, the censors are going to have to find the thin line between pornography and film: if you can't have a rape scene in pornography, why should we be allowed to have it in film?  Is sexual stimulation truly so different from the pleasure we get from high art?  Can we have rape scenes in movies, but we're not allowed to enjoy them?  Are the thought police going to come hang out on my couch while we watch American History X, taping sensors to my nipples and genitalia during the shower rape scene, just in case?

Certainly, there's something to be said for the argument that desentization to rape is a societal problem, but I think most rape depictions must be either sought out or come with a clear warning (at least anywhere with a movie ratings board).  Even if you were disgusted by A Clockwork Orange, for example, you were not shocked by it.  Surely, particularly if you read the book, you had some idea what was coming.  And truly, the desentization argument could me made of much movie content--murder, war, mafiosos, and teen preganacy are all serious systemic problems, but movies are made about such issues daily.  For our enjoyment, too!

Rape is a serious issue, doubtless.  And I understand that it's one people feel emotional enough about that sometimes rational debate is not only difficult but impossible.  But I don't think you can fairly single out and demonize rape porn enthusiasts (which, again, I'm not, just for the record) without ignoring a host of at-least-as-serious issues, in the process criminalizing a group of people who, on the whole, are truly enjoying harmless fun.

[Storm Rider]

On top of all that, even if you banned pornography that depicted 'rape', it's not like it would really prevent people who wanted to see it from finding it. I think we all know as people who are Internet savvy just how pervasive pornography is. Does that make it acceptable? No. But at the same time, it makes the efficacy of any legal action on a tricky subject questionable in the first place.

[Tom]

If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.

[Patrick]

(pic)

I hate you so much right now.

And I am totally sticking to my guns on that argument, I don't care what kind of shit it gets me from devil's-advocate types.

[Elizzybeth]

If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.

Again, couldn't the same thing be said of depicting murder?  I honestly believe that most people are able to differentiate between simulation and reality and that we should not have to be playing to the lowest common denominator.  Rape is already illegal, and rightly so--I understand wanting to catch potential rapists before things happen, but I think this is exactly the wrong way to go about it.  There isn't a 1:1 ratio of rape porn watchers and rapists.  It's not unlike the post-9/11 American practice of detaining people of middle eastern heritage at airports.  So what if we make a bunch of healthy, intelligent, contributing citizens criminals?  It's okay, because SOME Muslims are terrorists, and we're SURE to catch them this way.

[jimbunny]

(hmm, beaten to it)

If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.

Making allowances for the mentally ill (also small children), I can't really agree with either part of your statement. Because, I think, in the vast majority of cases, what's being simulated is not "real life" at all. Even in porn. Especially in porn. Just because it's displayed "realistically" - low-quality picture, no flying saucers - doesn't mean that what's happening on screen could conceivably happen in a non-artificial environment. Successfully-created realism takes a kind of talent and effort that I guarantee is extremely rare in the porn industry. And even if it does succeed at realism, part of our definition of "rational adult" is being able to accept the discontinuity between simulation and reality.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that watching violent things may have some effect on people, especially children. But it doesn't have the same effect on everybody. I'll draw an analogy to alcohol consumption laws. You can draw a pretty firm relationship between alcohol abuse and some really terrible things (many instances of rape, for example), but you can't say that drinking makes everyone do bad things. So you (try to) regulate it based on age, which you assume is a marker of basic mental development, and prosecute the instances in which it does lead to bad things.

[Cartilage Head]

I'm pretty sure I invented the idea of pocket-fucking. It is where a guy sticks his dick in a woman's pants pocket.

[torontoguy2k8]

If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.

Well see the thing is, for the most part rape fetishes and actual rape for the most part are two entirely different entities.
When it comes to actual rape, there is usually some sort of intent for doing harm unto the victim. I have NEVER read about a single instance of rape where the victim was consensual, expectant, or accepting of the rape in ANY way shape or form.
Now on the other hand you have rape as a FETISH. This is almost always (95%+) a premeditated and consensual activity. There is absolutely NO intention of harm or abuse, and there is usually, if not always, a way to stop it if one of the people is suddenly uncomfortable with the situation. I can speak from personal experience as this is something I engage in from time to time. For people who are interested in the fetish, the simulated loss of power and control over the "situation" translate into a huge turn on.
And for the most part, there are communities for meeting people with interest in this particular fetish, as well as self help guides to help people identify with that part of themselves.
As for what influences the fetish, I couldn't say. In my case, it's a passion for the submissive lifestyle, but each person is different.

So from my understanding of the topic, any poor bastard that CAN'T tell the difference between the fetish and reality sides of rape is one SERIOUSLY under-educated person. One is performed as an explicit means to do harm unto another, one is meant for physical enjoyment. If it gets out of hand, a girl will say stop or a pre-designated safe word. If you didn't agree on one, it's probably not consensual. Doesn't take a genius to tell the difference.

As for raped performed under the influence, 2 solutions (in my opinion) 1. bust a nut before drinking to get rid of the hormones making you horny in the first place, or drink with a friend that will smack you silly if you ever try anything. I need not worry about either, I drink with my girlfriend (of whom I am fiercely loyal to) and she would whoop my ass if I tried anything while drunk. (or turn it around and rape my silly drunk ass. which is cool with me)

I apologize for my rant, just thought I would interject my opinion as I am one of the RARE men who enjoy this particular fetish.

If I missed anything feel free to call me on it. This is all my opinion and is always open to interpretation.

((First post, sorry for not making a welcome thread. This one just caught my eye. If I broke any rules [yes I did read em] please let me know))

[Jimmy the Squid]

Man, fuck you for having the most well written first post I've ever seen. Seriously, you have just made everyone else look bad.

[Fenriswolf]

First, thank you torontoguy. I was really interested in a POV from a rape-fetishist. Now, when you say you have a passion for the submissive lifestyle, are you the sub? I got a little obsessed with the idea of 24-7 for a while (I think I am at heart a switch with more enthusiasm for subbing... but my partner is 100% vanilla so I guess I'll live without going there )

If only everyone in society could differentiate between simulation and reality but not every one can. This is the major problem with rape fetishes (?). Some people will take what they see and re-enact the simulation, turn it from a realistic expression into a total reality.

Well see the thing is, for the most part rape fetishes and actual rape for the most part are two entirely different entities.
When it comes to actual rape, there is usually some sort of intent for doing harm unto the victim. I have NEVER read about a single instance of rape where the victim was consensual, expectant, or accepting of the rape in ANY way shape or form.
Now on the other hand you have rape as a FETISH. This is almost always (95%+) a premeditated and consensual activity. There is absolutely NO intention of harm or abuse, and there is usually, if not always, a way to stop it if one of the people is suddenly uncomfortable with the situation. I can speak from personal experience as this is something I engage in from time to time. For people who are interested in the fetish, the simulated loss of power and control over the "situation" translate into a huge turn on.
And for the most part, there are communities for meeting people with interest in this particular fetish, as well as self help guides to help people identify with that part of themselves.

Let me just clarify that I have absolutely no problem with the above. I can't say I personally relate to it, but it is a more honest sexuality than what's pimped by the mainstream anyway

So from my understanding of the topic, any poor bastard that CAN'T tell the difference between the fetish and reality sides of rape is one SERIOUSLY under-educated person. One is performed as an explicit means to do harm unto another, one is meant for physical enjoyment. If it gets out of hand, a girl will say stop or a pre-designated safe word. If you didn't agree on one, it's probably not consensual. Doesn't take a genius to tell the difference.

Ahh, but I don't think that argument really addresses desensitisation (with porn as one of the media). Truly, desensitisation is a discussion I am loathe to touch in real life for it generally does lead to people patting each other on the back over the idea of banning all violent video games/other stuff that really disturbs me. But it is real, and against the backdrop of almost accepted sexual violence I think we need to treat glorified sexual violence differently to other violence - no one ever blames the victim for being robbed, beaten or having their throat cut. Women are routinely blamed for being raped.

Look forward to hearing more from you 

[Fenriswolf]

I agree with you that real rape is unacceptable under any circumstances, but I think criminalizing people who watch rape porn is an unhealthy move as a society--if roleplaying rape scenarios is 100% legal, why should watching porn of such scenarios (which were filmed legally, with consenting actors) be illegal?  And again, as other people have mentioned, the censors are going to have to find the thin line between pornography and film: if you can't have a rape scene in pornography, why should we be allowed to have it in film?  Is sexual stimulation truly so different from the pleasure we get from high art?  Can we have rape scenes in movies, but we're not allowed to enjoy them?  Are the thought police going to come hang out on my couch while we watch American History X, taping sensors to my nipples and genitalia during the shower rape scene, just in case?

I just cannot believe that fetishising rape (as a consensual activity... man, there's no succinct way to say that), which can be healthy within certain bounds, is particularly closely linked to enjoying rape porn. I believe that as a rape fetishist you must surely have a close emotional relationship with the concept, and thus that porn including rape would seldom resemble that which the fetishise - just as consensual sex generally does not resemble true rape.

I guess if I were to qualify I would support a bill banning professional productions of simulated penetrative rape scenes in pornographic movies. Sure, that's a highly limited definition and easy to get around. But I still think it would harm nought and to me make it slightly more difficult to tip toe toward justification of enjoying rape (as the perpetrator)

[Tom]

What I meant was that rape fetishes are controlled and are therefore a simulation. In rape there is an uncontrolled desire and willingness for total dominance on a subconscious level.

Hell, I'm probably wrong. I have no formal education in psychology and only a passing interest as well as living a sheltered life.

[fAlso, that post was made to try and find out some more from people. There's no such thing a s a dumb statement. They only ever bring up far more answers than expected. Like with teachers, ask/say one thing and you get 5 others

Welcome to the forum torontoguy, it's good to hear/see people speak so openly about their sexuality. Also, that's not a rant, too well focused.

Banning violent/pornographic things is a cop out. In relation to children, it's the parents who should be protecting them not the censorship boards. If anything we should regulate advertising. Seriously, tampon adverts during a children's movie wtf channel nine?

Violence and sex have always been a key part of human society. Shows like Underbelly and a lot of the games Rockstar releases fill that key part of our society that epics and penny dreadfuls once did. it'd be great if we didn't have to rely on shock value but we've always loved that.

[Fenriswolf]

Banning violent/pornographic things is a cop out. In relation to children, it's the parents who should be protecting them not the censorship boards. If anything we should regulate advertising. Seriously, tampon adverts during a children's movie wtf channel nine?

Haha. I have two problems with this post. (God, I'm annoying me with my nitpicking). (a) Banning rape scenes in pornography has nothing to do with children. (b) What the fuck is wrong with tampon adverts during children's movies? God forbid your kids should be aware of menstruation? Of nooooes 

[Tom]

Haha. I have a problems with this post. (God, I'm annoying me with my nitpicking). you mean "O nooooes", not "Of nooooes"

[Fenriswolf]

Arh! Damn you all! The more I proof-read, the worse I get... 

[Tom]

Read the tiny type if you don't understand what I'm doing.

[torontoguy2k8]

Firefox and spell check are my friends.

And yeah I am a submissive. Strangely enough I was completely unaware of this until I got with my current girlfriend and boy did she turn my world upside down!

Damn I love that girl

Anyway, as for desensitizing, I do believe it to be a small issue, but at the same time, a little common sense, when used properly, can do a person a whole lot of good and save them from many a horrible situation.
For example, just because I played EVERY Grand Theft Auto game out there dozens of times (and have become quite numb to violence in general) does not mean I am going to go out, throw some old lady out of her car, drive like a madman and kill hundreds of people. That's just DUMB
So, if I see some guys raping a girl in a porno, I wouldn't even consider going out and raping some chick (My submissiveness set aside here) it's just common sense to realize that something is FANTASY or FAKE. It might not bother me as much as the first time I ever saw it, but I was raised to know the difference between reality and fantasy, no matter what the medium.
So, I do believe people can become desensitized to things yeah, but it all boils down to the decisions we make as individuals based on our own perspective of common sense. And if it's a really fucked up perspective, there are only 3 people in the world that can ultimately be blamed. Mom, Dad, and yourself.

If any of that made sense I am glad. It's 7am and I stayed up all night listening to Chrome with my girlfriend. pretty awesome stuff, but I swear I feel like a zombie >_<

[Oli]

I blame GTA IV, personally.

[a pack of wolves]

So, I do believe people can become desensitized to things yeah, but it all boils down to the decisions we make as individuals based on our own perspective of common sense. And if it's a really fucked up perspective, there are only 3 people in the world that can ultimately be blamed. Mom, Dad, and yourself.

By and large I agree with what you say, that the important thing is not to censor but to create attitudes within people that mean no potential ill effects could arise from something like rape in pornography. However, I do have a problem with this part. By saying that the only people that blame can be attached to are the parents and the individual you admit the influence of outside influences on the formation of a person in the form of the parents, but you dismiss any others. This doesn't make much sense to me. Your parents might be around a lot but you're constantly within society unless you live a peculiarly sheltered life (which is not a healthy thing). So why can't the attitudes presented and reinforced by that society be a major influence?

[torontoguy2k8]

By saying that the only people that blame can be attached to are the parents and the individual you admit the influence of outside influences on the formation of a person in the form of the parents, but you dismiss any others. Why can't the attitudes presented and reinforced by that society be a major influence?

Well outside influences can have an impact on a person yes, but while you are growing up, it's the responsibility of the parent's for the most part to put these various outside influences into a perspective that makes sense. But with society in general, that can be a daunting task for most parents and quite a few end up giving up on trying to make sense of the world and leave it up to the child's own judgment. Thus when a parent stops trying to put a younger person's worldly experiences into a more understandable perspective, outside influences will start to have a MUCH larger impact on that person. So I still stick to my beliefs that parents are ultimately responsible for how a person, especially in earlier stages of life, develops his or her attitude towards things. The biggest example I can use from my own life is how my father would ALWAYS impress upon me that no matter WHAT the situation, it is NEVER right to hit a woman. I would see it in movies, music videos, and rarely in real life. Had my father NOT drilled that firm belief into my brain, I very well could have considered hitting women to be an appropriate thing to do in several situations. I was taught what is right and what isn't by my parents. MANY times there were situations I thought one way about that were put into a proper context by them, so that I would PROPERLY understand why I should or should not do or like certain things.
So while the outside world can provide a heavy influence on a person, as long as your parents help you develop a proper set of morals that you maintain, you should be able to avoid even considering that something like rape is socially accepted.

I don't think it's so much about direct simulation as a subtle change of thought over time. Your mindset can change dramatically after changing your input from the rest of the world (see: people turn into fucking idiots by watching Fox News all day), and I think watching a lot of rape porn ultimately ends up changing the viewpoint on how the woman experiences rape

Now this I don't really agree with.
I have watched ALOT of rape porn. ever since I discovered that this was a fetish for me, I have become more interested in the way porn does it. Most of it is pretty garbage and if you pay attention to what you're watching, you can see the small, subtle signs of the female actor being in complete control of the situation. (This goes for most porn in general. Do yourselves a favor, next vid you watch, watch her eyes and hands very carefully. There are very small usually unnoticed signs the girl will give to the male actor to inform him of what she is or is not comfortable with) But I digress, I have watched plenty of rape porn. so under this string of logic, I should be thinking to myself that all women are sluts and that every woman I will ever encounter will secretly enjoy being raped. This is however the farthest thing from the truth you could get. I totally understand that each and every scenario in porn is very fake and scripted, and that in the REAL world, rape is NEVER[/b] acceptable and that the woman will NOT enjoy it. If someone was willing to do some research and NOT blindly follow his cock, he would see that a PROPER rape scenario between two people that DOESN'T land you in jail is premeditated and discussed previously by BOTH people. Any idiot out there that justifies rape as being ok simply because he saw it in porn a bunch of times and eventually assumed it was an acceptable practice is a simple minded fucking moron. Men that say "Oh all women are sluts and are always asking to be raped by dressing skanky" are simply fishing for an excuse to have their actions justified because they were too fucking stupid to tell the simple difference between fantasy and reality.

Anyway, I apologize for the more abrasive tone to my argument near the end, I just have a problem with men who justify any sort of abuse towards a woman as acceptable or right. It just sickens me.

I blame GTA IV, personally.

I wouldn't know. My PS3 died on the day of release. Had the damn game pre-ordered too >_<

[a pack of wolves]

The problem is that you can't possibly talk to your child about everything. There's just too much in the world and too little time in the day. You can guide them and try to be a good influence but you can't be the only influence unless you try to withdraw your child from society, and things beyond your control can prevent you even being the primary influence in how your child sees the world. Also, you have the problem that the parent is in society and is being shaped by it, and as soon as your child leaves your home you can't exert as much influence as you once did. I'm not saying that parents don't have a responsibility to try and raise their kids with good values, but they're not doing it in a vacuum. They and their children are constantly influenced in one way or another by the wider society, and I think that's a far more powerful influence on behaviour than any single individual can be.

[Mr. Mojo]

This debate has no meaning. People shall still furiously masturbate to various types of pornography.

[Ozymandias]

My penis is this long:

|------------------------------------|

And this wide:

|---------|

Not to any specific scale.

[IronOxide]

My penis is this long:

|------------------------------------|

And this wide:

|---------|

At a 1 to 1 scale.

[jhocking]

direct simulation
exposed

You forgot to talk about how harmful messages can penetrate innocent minds.

[Storm Rider]

My penis is this long:

|------------------------------------|

And this wide:

|---------|

[Fenriswolf]

I don't know Torontoguy - I like your answers, but I think you're giving people too much credit. And I would much rather change attitudes than ban anything (just like I despise the controversial elements of GTA but wouldn't ban it - I just wish you could play the game as a female protagonist, with no killing hookers or at least the availability of male hookers - ha, really I just wish people could enjoy violent games without wanting to involve fucking women in their jollies) but since those attitudes have been around for such a long, long time and aren't really abating that much I feel a line should be drawn.

The fact is, you're an educated consumer. You're no rapist. But IMO most people (I say people for I truly believe it's the human condition - it's just that it's usually men put in this situation) would rape if put in the right situation, or at the very least stand by and say nothing. I can understand rape as it occurs in war (as the most extreme example of being drawn into it) but despise the perpetrators no less for it.

Realistically, the chances of you going to jail for raping a women is very slim. The conviction rate is well below half, and if it's not stranger-rape (of course the least common) the chances of the woman being believed is ridiculously low. I'm all in support of reporting but I wouldn't. It's not worth the pain. A woman was gang-raped at 17 years old by a bunch of cops, convicted them years later. Fought and fought and fought, was labelled a liar. Finally convicted 2 out of 4 of them, they got 8 years and now they're getting out after 3 years in prison.

If someone succeeds in raping me I will kill them or myself. Or possibly both. I own knives, I have no problem cutting arteries and frankly I'd love to beat a rapist to death. Unfortunately I cannot be partisan on this subject as I have two choices of emotion when discussing rape - overwhelming, function-destroying terror or blinding rage. I choose blinding rage.

[Tom]

TRUE FACT: 10 people at my school have not slept since GTAIV's release.

[jhocking]

TRUE FACT: 10 people at your school need to get some fresh air.

[snalin]

To the whole rape in porn-thingy, you will not, ever, rape someone if you have the right morals implanted. This is why it's so extreamly important for adults to teach their children that forcing someone into sex is never okay. Ever.

I wouldn't want rape porn to be less legal than the rest of the porn industry. The biggest problem with porn isn't that it deranges women, but that women is forced into doing it (just like prostitution) because of poverty. I sincerely belive that pornography and prostitution should not exist in societies where poverty exists, because then the majority of the women and men in it is people who have to because of economy. And having to use your body to earn money unless you are completely comfortable with it is, is not something anyone should have to go through, ever. Of cource, there's the argument that some men can't get laid, ever, and need the prostitutes and porn to have a sex-life. But this is a microscopic bit of the customers. Most are just normal men that has a horny side that isn't satesfied with what they have at the moment. They do not need it, but they use the women as cheap entertainment.

Desiering women (especially naked ones. hurr hurr) is never wrong, it's just that you should desire them as willing sex-partners, not pussy and boobs.

I cannot imagine how boring it would be to sleep with a woman that lies down, spreads her legs, and screams like a fucking pig being slaughtered slowly. Porn-sounds are terribly creepy, really, most people I know just turn of the frigging sound.

I have always wondered how stupid someone must feel when they do hentai-voiceovers.

On top of all that, even if you banned pornography that depicted 'rape', it's not like it would really prevent people who wanted to see it from finding it.

mhm, completely on the spot. Think of Pedophilia, it's out there, for the sick and disgusting people that will search for it. That being said, I think pedophilia is far, far worse than rape porn, since the whole rape-roleplay thing is okay if both parts agree to it.

I'm pretty sure I invented the idea of pocket-fucking. It is where a guy sticks his dick in a woman's pants pocket.

I just started thinking of the Norwegian "lommemannen" (the pocket man). He removed the... errr.... stuffing in his pocket, so the pocket was only a hole. Then he asked smal children to help him find his keys or something in his pocket. Thus resulting in them touching his man-parts. He abused the nature of smal children to be nice and helpfull. Just a digression, not on topic, but still, it shows how sick people can be. So, for the sake of hundreds of kids that has been abused by a stranger for over 10 years before they got the fucker, the combination of pocekts and fuckin is never funny.

[onewheelwizzard]

I cannot imagine how boring it would be to sleep with a woman that lies down, spreads her legs, and screams like a fucking pig being slaughtered slowly. Porn-sounds are terribly creepy, really, most people I know just turn of the frigging sound.

See my earlier posts on this thread.  In good porn (read: porn involving legitimately real orgasms) the visuals are secondary (for me anyway).

[Slick]

To the whole rape in porn-thingy, you will not, ever, rape someone if you have the right morals implanted. This is why it's so extreamly important for adults to teach their children that forcing someone into sex is never okay. Ever.

I feel as though we fundamentally disagree on our perceptions of the world. Not that I think it is unimportant for parents to teach morals, but I also believe coming to your own moral conclusions is important and that 'moral implantation' is not necessarily enough to prevent rape. Extreme circumstances could brake said morals and I don't think telling someone something is wrong can always work, especially if those telling are resented.

[snalin]

of cource you are right. But first your last point, extreme circumstances. Extreme circumstances that often lead to rape is anarchy (or something close), war and humanitarian crisises. And this isn't stuff that will happen to the average porn-viewing guy, especially the one digging up stuff on the internett.

And I do not believe that you should not come to your own moral conclusions. But it's really important to get into children and teens minds that sex is something you agree to. I'm not sure about the numbers, but a lot of rapes is really drunk teen girls at parties that get's boned by a little less drunk guys. And at some point of drunkedness, you are either unable to understand what's going on, or unable to tell the guy humping you that you don't want to do this at all. It's still rape.

And since this can happen with people from 16 years old and down, when everybody hasn't exactly thought 100% through their morales, it's important for them to have some implanted, if only temporary ones. It's important to think for yourself, it's also important to listen to your folks.

[Slick]

You're pulling up stats, don't do that unless you know.

I take issue with the notion that "you will not, ever, rape someone if you have the right morals implanted". I disagree, and think people can. Ordinary people can do and have done awful things under the right (wrong) circumstances. Morals aren't the sole factor in making many people's decisions, so I don't think they're sufficient to prevent rape.

Also, is english your first language? Is it rude for me to be pointing out your grammatical mistakes?

[Tom]

Not as bad as it is in Australia by the looks of it.

[Patrick]

TRUE FACT: 10 people at your school need to get some fresh air.

TRUE FACT: Joseph Hocking discovers that the kettle really is black, joins forces with the pot

[Storm Rider]

Man, I know all about spending too much time playing video games, but going without sleep for over a week is just fucking ridiculous, even if you're going to school in between sessions. No game is worth that.

[torontoguy2k8]

Man, I know all about spending too much time playing video games, but going without sleep for over a week is just fucking ridiculous, even if you're going to school in between sessions. No game is worth that.

Amen to that.
Yet my girlfriend still insists on calling me a WoW fag >_< (And I ignore ANY game, including WoW, for her on a regular basis)

Anyway, I understand that extreme circumstance can affect anyone into do anything, but I still firmly believe that having a firm moral structure in place can at least aid in hampering any bad decisions from happening. They will never be able to stop bad things from happening completely, but they can help.
I just don't believe that watching one specific thing over and over will eventually brainwash you into doing it. That's the main thing I disagree with here.
But there are so many factors that can ultimately instigate the instance at which a person decides to rape someone that there is no definite way to ever prevent it. Unfortunately.

Not too sure what else to say on the matter.

[Wyvernhand]

For Christmas last year, me and my now-exgirlfriend exchanged handmade "fantasy coupons" where we told each other a fantasy, and could redeam the ticket at any time to act out the fantasy.  Guess what her's was?  Yup, a rape fantasy.  This was really really really awkward for me.  I'm a nice guy, and I like to think I was raised well with a healthy respect for god and women.  When she actually redeamed the ticket, I wasn't really sure what to do.  I mean, I pushed her around a bit on the bed, but couldn't hit her or anything beyond a playful smack on the bottom.  I didn't really know what to do, and I think I kind of let her down.  I didn't really know how far to take it, and wasn't really comfortable, but I did my best at what I think she wanted.  I think the nice slow lovemaking that came after was much more enjoyable, for me and for her.  I wish we would have talked about it a bit more now in hindsight, so I'd have a bit more understanding why she picked that as her fantasy, but unfortunately we broke up when I moved 1/2 way across the country shortly after and haven't talked much since.

Too bad really, because we were working out the mechanics of my fantasy, which was to have a 3rd or 4th party watch at some point when we had sex.  Too bad for me

[jhocking]

This was really really really awkward for me.  I'm a nice guy, and I like to think I was raised well with a healthy respect for god and women.  When she actually redeamed the ticket, I wasn't really sure what to do.

man I don't know what I would do either. Once my gf asked me to smother her with a pillow (she was curious to experience that, don't ask me why) and that was extremely awkward.

[jhocking]

nah man, it wasn't during sex, she just randomly asked one afternoon. She must've been thinking about it before I walked in, but I have no idea why. Anyway it was a long time ago, she probably doesn't even remember it.