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[Ozymandias]

Man, I love art deco architecture like crazy.

Someone should make me an art deco castle.

[Vendetagainst]

that would be incredible, my mind would orgasm.

[supersheep]

Who invented/won what is a pretty fun game because generally Britain wins.

You didn't win the Troubles. You still have the North.

Me, I'm not proud to be Irish, any more than I'm proud to be 5'8, or to have curly hair, or fairly stumpy fingers. I'm like that all of these things are true, but I don't think that they make any difference in any real way. I'm proud of things I do, like grow my lovely beard or write a pretty damn good essay, not accidents of genetics or location or whatever.
Sure, I went through the phase of nationalist feeling at one point that I'm sure 95% of Border county kids do, although it never went as far as most folk. I've always been critical of the IRA's campaign, but not necessarily its aim - something I am now, to a certain degree. Thing is, as my political orientation shifted leftwards, the meaning of borders began to make less sense to me. Like Wolves said, what difference does the side of a border I live on mean? Sure, I'll probably have more in common with an Irish person than an English one, but this is cos we have shared cultural standpoints and experiences, not because we have the same location. Any Irish person around my age or older is going to remember the Dublin Riots, the order to dump arms, Omagh, and so on, and so we have certain connections there. Despite this, I still have more in common with most people anywhere than I do with, say, Tony O'Reilly or Denis O'Brien. I don't share anything with them just by virtue of being Irish.
I can't really think of any positive aspects to nationalism, to be entirely honest. Look at Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, Chechnya, and fascism, to name just the four examples that come to mind quickest. I'm not saying, of course, that imperialism is better, just that defining yourself as part of a specific ethnic group that happens to maintain the accepted monopoly of force in an area has tended to lead to bad things.
As for patriotism, it's always meant "dumb blind faith in my country, right or wrong" to me. Therefore, it's even worse, I guess.

inflatable_slide, I love that you post in Corkonian. It has made my day.

[fatty]

Um so I didn't expect this to be an argument about whether modern skyscrapers can be as cool as gothic architecture. As our resident architecture student I'd like to kindly say 'shut up'. Stop shitting on architecture by quoting Wikipedia and thinking you get it.

I would like to agree that it doesn't matter whether your country's history is 1000 years or 100 years. China is the longest surviving continuous empire in the world. I feel connected to it somewhat. Why? Because I am brought up understanding and dealing with it's culture and deep-rooted beliefs. That's something I learnt in the 19 years I've been alive. I don't feel any national connection to it, and neither do my parents. My grandparents might.

I feel very connected to the Australian culture and people because of the same things relating to my upbringing. It's not because my ancestors came here as convicts on ships, it's because I live and breathe modern Australian society and place and landscape.

I think if half of Australia belonged to another country I would not feel as connected to it, it would be similiar to my feeling of New Zealand.

So basically yeah, I think nationalism is very much based on the upbringing and how we are taught and introduced to the idea of it. It's ingrained in upbringing though. For those who have fought for national identity, it is natural for them to pass on their beliefs.

And yes, I guess it is a cultural note that 'where are you from?' is somehwhat borderline offensive here. I used to see it as terribly rude, especially when I was younger. As young as primary school, I remember being particularly miffed that a boy would ask me that, though he probably didn't know any better.

[Vendetagainst]

it's so weird that a question so commonplace somewhere can be an insult elsewhere. Ok, well I guess it isn't but it still sort of is.


I see no problem with quoting wikipedia in most scenarios, particularly as I am merely linking it to demonstrate the appearance of a few buildings in my city. It doesn't matter whether or not "I get it", this conversation doesn't involve even the most basic understanding of architecture, it's just an exchange of opinions that need not have any correlation to a person's level of education on the subject.
I didn't mean to suggest that I felt one way or another as far as the "superior" building, because I don't, they're completely different things, but I don't think it's fair to disregard what is modern simply because of its age because it requires that a person maintain a subjective viewpoint.

[Oli]

Can we move on from architecture before we derail this thread any further? The first post on this page made some interesting points but we just barrelled past.

I have lived my entire life on a small, isolated island and have my own language that only 300.000 people speak.

This strikes me as a pretty big thing when considering nationality and culture.

And coincidentally I just finished reading Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe which deals with, amoung other things, the cultual loss of a Nigerian clan when white man came bringing western influences like Christianity and a new form of Government. One of the more important things I noticed while studying it (I'm reading it for my English Lit course so I've been taking notes and all that) was that after the outsie influences started affecting the culture the language used by the clansmen changed. They stopped refering to days in terms of market days and instead said Sunday (or what have you) for example.

Would everyone agree that language is of huge cultural significance?

By extension would everyone agree that the assimilation of another language, or aspects of another language, into a culture would create problems with the preservation of culture and with that nationality?

I'm conflicted on this. I think that language is a huge part of cultural identity, but I also think that culture is not a frozen thing and that it evolves with the nature of the people it represents.

[Johnny C]

The attempted assimilation of the Quebecois into English Canada created a cultural rift that lasts to this day.

So yeah, it creates problems.

[elcapitan]

And yes, I guess it is a cultural note that 'where are you from?' is somehwhat borderline offensive here. I used to see it as terribly rude, especially when I was younger. As young as primary school, I remember being particularly miffed that a boy would ask me that, though he probably didn't know any better.

I'm Australian-born, but my family isn't from here. My mum is four-generations Kiwi, and my father is from Manchester. Because I'm white, I've never been asked "Where are you from?" in the sense that Ali mentions, and I can see why she finds it offensive. The implication that I don't belong in Australia (which, by the way, I love with every fibre of my being - although I frequently don't agree with the views of those running the place) would piss me off in short order as well.

That said, the fact remains that unless you're Indigenous, your Australian roots can only go back a few generations max before they head off to some other interesting part of the world. This is hands-down one of the best things about our culture. My close friends and I have roots including the Spanish royal family, upper-nobility bastards in Germany, Druze dissidents in Lebanon, Argentinian explorers, Baha'i Iranians who fled the Revolution, Vietnamese refugees from when it was still French Indochina, etc.

This makes for fascinating conversation. As such, one of the first things I'll ask someone when I'm getting to know them is where their families have come from - not out of implication that they don't belong here, but purely because every different answer I get reinforces my love for Australia.

[KharBevNor]

You didn't win the Troubles. You still have the North.

Yeah but we invented Television and the Jet Engine and Steam Trains so suck it paddy.

[waterloosunset]

And computers!

[Lines]

American architecture is nothing compared to castles, temples, cathedrals, pyramids, tombs, etc. from pre-America. Also, I think American history kind of boring. Given the chance to choose between living in a skyscraper or a castle, heck yes I'd choose castle.

But to say Americans can't have as much pride in their country because we haven't been around as long is silly. No, people haven't been around here as long as say Europe or Asia or Africa, but we've still done some pretty notable things in the time we've had. Also, this country is known for being a melting pot, so it's kind of cool to know where your ancestors came from and when they came here and why.

[JediBendu]

I think the only thing that can be said about castles vs. skyscrapers is that castles are by and large just decrepit old ruins or show buildings preserved for historical significance while skyscrapers actually have a practical place in modern society. Not to mention they are significantly more advanced in terms of engineering, the architecture part of it is completely subjective.

"Which is cooler" or "Which looks better" is pretty irrelevant since it's so much more relative when compared to "which is more useful."

[Hat]

While your argument makes sense, I still choose to believe that sports fans are ridiculous.

No more ridiculous than people who hold Religious beliefs.

It's cute the way you act like they're not one and the same to the British.

I think if half of Australia belonged to another country I would not feel as connected to it, it would be similiar to my feeling of New Zealand.

While it's not the sole factor in determining whether people will identify with each other, someone sounding very much the same as you is bound to foster some kind of mutal kinship in a way, and because of the fact that an Australian from Perth will sound very much like someone from Brisbane, I think that in a hypothetical situation where Australia was split up into multiple countries, the bond between the two countries would still be incredibly strong based on that alone.

Also this would explain why  giving shit to New Zealanders is such a fantastic national pastime.

I think the only thing that can be said about castles vs. skyscrapers is that castles are by and large just decrepit old ruins or show buildings preserved for historical significance while skyscrapers actually have a practical place in modern society. Not to mention they are significantly more advanced in terms of engineering, the architecture part of it is completely subjective.

"Which is cooler" or "Which looks better" is pretty irrelevant since it's so much more relative when compared to "which is more useful."

When the Normans invade again, try to tell me that Castles aren't useful. You won't be able to because you'll be speaking French

As for the whole "how much history the US has compared to the rest of the world", I think we should probably take into account that while American History is comparatively short, it is incredibly dense compared to a lot of much older civilisations. The fact that America wasn't around in the 14th century does a LOT to balance out the averages.

[Lines]

Yes, it's up to the individual to decide what is cooler, but I'd still take this, this, or this over a skyscraper. The engineering may be better, but still, these are so much more awesome to me.

[JediBendu]

While recognizing your joke, Hat, I feel the need to go ahead and clarify the fact that useful historically and useful to modern society are also about as different as the difference between engineering marvels and architectural marvels. Humanity has outgrown the need for medieval fortifications and the very fact that we don't need it anymore in hardly any way makes skyscrapers more useful by definition (though the argument can be made that humanity doesn't truly need skyscrapers, but the economy of such a building is indisputable.)

And Linds, I have to admit I do agree with you. I've seen very few buildings in America as beautiful as things overseas, but even then I've seen very few buildings as economical as buildings here in America. (Though, Americans should keep in mind that a lot of countries in East Asia are becoming engineering giants as well. Actually probably a lot of countries have already overtaken America.)

And Hat pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding American culture and history's density vs. age. And as an American I think it's perfectly reasonable to be proud of our history, and actually if any of you foreigners disagree then I would make the argument that you just don't "get it."

[RedLion]

Who invented/won what is a pretty fun game because generally Britain wins.

Another fun game to play is "Who's responsible for a lot of the world's current problems," because Britain generally wins there too, what with artificially carving out countries in the Middle East and Africa with no regard to tribe, religion, history, etc. Of course the French did their share of that too in Africa--Mauritania's border is composed of nothing but straight lines drawn randomly. (note: I'm [mostly] kidding.)

Anyway, nationalism is one of the most violent and damaging forces in the world, ranking up there with religious fanaticism and ideologies like Stalinism. All borders are artificial creations anyway. Why do people feel the need to define themselves as a chunk of random lank at odds with other chunks of random land? It's only natural that different tribes and peoples clash with one another, but why is so much sacrificed in support of of nationalism? In the past, it was empire-building. Part of that was guaranteeing access to resources and such, but it was largely built around nationalistic glory. Domestic problems in countries often lead to the leaders of those countries trying to re-direct attention to clashes with foreign entities, to rally the people around their nation and distract them from the issues that actually make a difference in their day-to-day lives. The idea of "my country over all other countries" just doesn't seem to have much logical basis, unless it's viewed as the equivalent of different dens of wolves or prides of lions competing amongst themselves. But even then, often times a lot of the people living in those countries aren't bound together by anything other than a vague national story, particularly in recently created nations in Africa and Asia. So what holds that system together?

I, personally, truly do love my country. But I think the most patriotic way to show that love is to question everything it does and demand nothing but the best from it. It has terrible faults, but it also has tremendous accomplishments and has more often than not in the past stood for "the right thing," although that in itself is subject to interpretation. That's why the occurrences of the past few years have been so infuriating to me. I see the current leaders of America betraying everything this country was founded on.  Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Abu Graihb, renditions, torture, political curruption, religious extremism and intolerance on the rise... John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and George Washington would probably disavow this country of any relation to the nation they forged, were they alive. But what I love about my country is that it has the potential to reinvent itself endlessly, and it's been in similar situations in the past, and has always managed to return to its core principles, though never perfectly. I'm a staunch pacifist for the most part, so foreign military adventures are something that I can't support. But if this country were to be invaded or attacked, I would be one of the first people to stand in its defense. I'm not even sure why.

[Luke C]

I used to think patriotism and nationalism were both ridiculous ideas since you dont decide were you are born, however when I thought about it you dont pick your family either but most people would say it is rational to love them.

So now I would consider myself a patriot, I take pride in my country and its many achievements but Im not a nationalist. I wont back it right or wrong and I dont have some crazy belief that British people are inherently better than anyone else or that only British people should be allowed to live in Britain.

[RedLion]

But what exactly do you mean by "British people"? Is it everyone who is born in Britain? Everyone who fits in with the predominant British culture/society?

[Vendetagainst]

Do British people say Brit or Briton? Do Canadians ever get pissed off after they find US pennies and nickels in their change? These are the questions that haunt me.

[Jimmy the Squid]

I've never heard a British person say "Brit" nor seen them write "Briton". Also why would anyone be mad about finding change from other countries in amongst their native change? It's not like that change is coming over to your country, stealing your jobs and marrying your women.

[Vendetagainst]

I don't know why people get annoyed by it, but finding Canadian change is pretty common in America and I have seen plenty of people get annoyed by it rather than the more appropriate reaction of excited. It's like finding a wheat penny.

[Jimmy the Squid]

Man, we get change from New Zealand all the time. I like it because it's never been refused in a shop before (not for me anyway) and it's fun seeing what crazy animals they have on their coins.

[Vendetagainst]

all we ever get is pennies mostly, but it's pretty sweet when you get a Canadian nickel. Why? I'm not sure.
Australian currency has some pretty crazy animals on it too.

[elcapitan]

Man, we get change from New Zealand all the time. I like it because it's never been refused in a shop before (not for me anyway) and it's fun seeing what crazy animals they have on their coins.

Really sucks when they get refused by vending machines though.

[ViolentDove]

Sometimes, foreign coins are worth their weight in gold in vending machines.

And sometimes, they just block up the coin slot mechanism.

Wow... that's like a metaphor or something.

[Liz]

Considering that Fargo is only a couple hours away from the border, we get quite a few Canadians shopping here all the time. We can't take Canadian change because it will mess up the balance of our registers at the end of the night, but it finds its way into our tills anyways. Even the little rolls of change from the bank have some in them. Luckily it's easy enough to tell if a person is Canadian by their accent so you can generally slip them the Canadian change if they pay with cash.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

i hate getting Canadian pennies.

not because they won't be accepted or they're "worth less" (which probably isn't true anymore anyway), but simply because they weigh less than American pennies. it bothers me to no end for some reason.

[BlakeJustBlake]

The lightest coins I've ever held are Japanese pennies.

[waterloosunset]

I've never heard a British person say "Brit" nor seen them write "Briton". Also why would anyone be mad about finding change from other countries in amongst their native change? It's not like that change is coming over to your country, stealing your jobs and marrying your women.

Briton always turns up in the newspapers. And the tabloids are very fond of using  "brit" as in "brits run amok in greece" or some variation thereof

[Vendetagainst]

So how is Briton pronounced? Is it like Britain or brit-'on or what?

[Oli]

I am Arthur, king of the Britons.

[Storm Rider]

I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

[Liz]

Damnit Tommy, you need to finish that quote so we can continue this. The next line doesn't work without the end of yours there.

[ruyi]

Would everyone agree that language is of huge cultural significance?

By extension would everyone agree that the assimilation of another language, or aspects of another language, into a culture would create problems with the preservation of culture and with that nationality?

I'm conflicted on this. I think that language is a huge part of cultural identity, but I also think that culture is not a frozen thing and that it evolves with the nature of the people it represents.

Here's an article (written by Slick, apparently) I came across recently while browsing American Indian articles on wikipedia. Kinda long, so if you're in a hurry, you can just read number 4 under "Why should we care?"

[KvP]

Language is certainly of major cultural significance. For example, the Jews maintained a very solid cultural identity over hundreds upon hundreds of years without any land to call their own, in large part due to their emphasis on reading sacred texts in Hebrew. And we can all think of examples of cultures being devastated either because they lacked a written tradition or their written tradition was destroyed when faced with zealous conquerors (particularly in the Americas) But that goes without saying, I suppose.

[jhocking]

I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

Photograph taken a couple weeks ago of the House of Lords:

[RedLion]

After being in Europe for close to a month, American money felt fake to me. The Euro is much better. It's shiny. And different sizes.

[bbqrocks]

If I lived in old england, around the time of the empire, I would be pretty patriotic (screw feeling about the slave trade, or ruling people's asses). I'm not patriotic at all about england nowadays, though. It's gotta a kinda 'we ruled your asses and now we're very sorry' mentality, and politically we have degenerated into a kind of lackey for america, which is a shame. I am proud of the english language, though- How can you not be proud that your country has forced some stupid illogical bollocks on large areas of the world.

[snalin]

I'm a patriot. Not that I've really thought that much about it. I guess it's a combination of the usual propaganda in school and an actual pride in the achievements of our country. The thing is that the nationalistic movement in Norway is traditionally a democratic and left-winged thing, while a lot of countries has a right-wing and elitist nationalism, often an upper-class thing. Norway as an independent nation hasn't been ruled by a king since the 14th century. So as long as it doesn't turn into racism, I think believing in your country is a good thing.

My main reason for believing in Norway and my wish to preserve Norway as it is, is the European Union. We are one of the lucky few European countries that has managed to keep out of that shit, and I hope it stays that way. I really, really believe in the social democracy. It owns. And I'm proud to be a part of it. The filthy socialistic/capitalistic cross-breed works like hell, and any other political system is inferior. Yes, I know this sounds like the ravings of a Patriot fanatic, and there's a lot of my country that I'm not proud of (we sound like Homer Simpson's retarded twin when we speak English). But all in all, this place is great. Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with immigration, I believe in much more open borders than we have now. Immigration is never a problem as long as you keep high minimum wages.

Would everyone agree that language is of huge cultural significance?

By extension would everyone agree that the assimilation of another language, or aspects of another language, into a culture would create problems with the preservation of culture and with that nationality?

I'm conflicted on this. I think that language is a huge part of cultural identity, but I also think that culture is not a frozen thing and that it evolves with the nature of the people it represents.

Language is a really big part of cultural identity. But I think you forget something. Culture is not a frozen thing at all, but language develops too. But your example is fascinating. It's nerdish, yes, but I'll probably want to browse through that book.

Anyway, nationalism is one of the most violent and damaging forces in the world, ranking up there with religious fanaticism and ideologies like Stalinism.

Not at all. Nationalism isn't violent and damaging, it can be used in such a way that it causes violence. The same thing goes for religion and political systems, if you prioritize them over the welfare of the people, you always go wrong.

[öde]

I don't care about countries (and I'm all for immigration and completely open borders). I love the landscape of the U.K. though, it's beautiful and it feels like home but that's just because I've lived here all my life.

I was thinking how I probably wouldn't be happy about some distant power controlling the country, but then I don't like our government controlling the country.

[Caspian]

I would say that I'm pretty damn glad that I live in Australia. A free society that for the last few generations hasn't done anything particularly bad, that has pretty high living standards, is quite friendly, not all that violent and overall is just a very nice place to be- I've been to about 35 countries and this is the best I've seen thus far. I guess I would consider myself a patriot, really; I would sign up if we were getting invaded or what not.

To be honest, I've never been completely certain as to what exactly Nationalism entails, but seeing as I'm a bit of a right winger (well, in terms of authoritarianism, anyway) I imagine it would sit well with me, and I like the wiki definition of it. Pride in your country and culture, a tendency towards a homogenous culture? Yes please! Honestly guys, I have to wonder just WHY anyone would willingly allow multiculturalism.

[snalin]

I would say that I'm pretty damn glad that I live in Australia. A free society that for the last few generations hasn't done anything particularly bad, that has pretty high living standards, is quite friendly, not all that violent and overall is just a very nice place to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations


.... Our teacher had us see "The Rabbit Fence". I kinda lost respect for Australian history. But what the hell, it was probably a bit biased.

[TimA]

I'm comfortable calling myself a patriot. The word gets misused a lot in the states, especially around ballot-time.

As far as saying nationalism or religious extremism causes all the world's trouble...meh. People cause all the world's trouble. It just depends on what kind of hat they wear. Folks will always identify as "us" vs. "them", and until you get them out of that mentality it doesn't matter if we're talking about a nation state feeling frisky with its borders or a social clique excluding the quiet kid. It's all damage.

[Vendetagainst]

but then again I am not entirely against the "us against them" dichotomy. It can have devastating consequences in the wrong mindset, but so can any idea. I think that in the right circumstance, the "us against them" can (and has) protect people from self-destructive rationales in times when they necessarily do something that can logically be described as unethical.

*edit*
Also, it can be romantic as hell

[Caspian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

..You don't think I'm familiar with that?

A free society that for the last few generations hasn't done anything particularly bad

[Dissy]

Khar, We invented the airplane functioning one anyway, so all inventions to improve upon the design are thus technically ours.  And, if you want to get real technical, the first "jet engine" was url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile]developed about 1900 years ago.[/url]

Also, we invented the modern fucking car, nuclear weapons, and Ebonics.  The US wins, followed by the Romans, than the Egpytians, then Greeks...

[Eris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations#Australian_federal_parliament_apology

We are trying to work about fixing what we did. Everyone is taught in high school (hell, probably primary school) about the Stolen Generations, so it's not as if we're ignoring it. This apology has taken a long time to come about, a lot longer than it should, but it's showing that we're willing to say we did something wrong. You lost respect for a country that did something wrong in the past? What about the British, do you have no respect for them because of all the "colonising" they did? What about Israel when the videos came out showing soldiers breaking children's arms? What about Germany and that whole holocaust thing?



I am rather apathetic about my country. I went through the whole "embrace your Irish roots!" phase when I was about 12, but that is just because my mother is most definitely Irish. If I had been born from two descendants of convicts instead of just one, I would probably be even less interested in my background. Sure I live here, and it's a nice place, and I'll be quick to tell people that they should live here, it's awesome, but like most places (probably every place, actually) people her have done bad shit which makes me embarrassed to by associated with them because I am Australian. Plus the stereotypes of us have always been awful. Steve Irwin? "Put another shrimp on the barbie!"? All those terrible Americans-being-Australian accents? Ick.

[Vendetagainst]

Dude, trying to criticize somebody for what their country did is FUCKING RETARDED.

we have...
McCarthyism
Destruction of Native American land
Dropping 2 nuclear bombs (I believe it was justified, but it is still a very easy criticism)
Dick Cheney (inexcusable)
Slavery in a country founded on equal rights
Oppression of African Americans long after slavery ended
Confinement of the Japanese during WWII
Guantanamo Bay

etc...
etc...

And all countries have horrible things they've done, you certainly can't criticize a citizen of that country for what they weren't even involved in. I get that that might not have been the point you were trying to make, but let's not even leave it open to interpretation.

[Caspian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations#Australian_federal_parliament_apology

We are trying to work about fixing what we did. Everyone is taught in high school (hell, probably primary school) about the Stolen Generations, so it's not as if we're ignoring it. This apology has taken a long time to come about, a lot longer than it should, but it's showing that we're willing to say we did something wrong.

"We did something wrong"?

Last time I checked, I was not born early enough to have done anything regarding this. Basically I am saying the latest apology (nothing wrong with apologising right after the event) was somewhat unnecessary and a load of nonsense, to say the least.

[Eris]

Jesus, was to take shit literally. We as in Australians. We as in the government at the time who thought it would be a good idea to take kids away from their families and raise them up "properly". You know what I meant, there's no need to be an argumentative arsehole.

You may think the apology was unnecessary and a load of nonsense, but what about the people who had been taken and lost a lot of their sense of history? It's fairly fucking important to them. If you have evidence of a proper apology like Rudd gave from an earlier time then I would be quite interested in seeing it.