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[Loki]

I'd assume you prove that for any given statement P, both P and not-P apply at the same time.

[Carl-E]

Awfully hard to prove a contradiction. 
-><-

I'm rather fond of the one in I,Robot (Asimov's short story collection, not the movie).  I don't recall all the details, but a robot was to retrieve something critical to the survival of it's human team, but it was in an area that was deadly to the robot.  The first imperative (serving the humans) drove it toward the danger, and the second (self-preservation) drove it back.  They found it wandering in a circle, singing Gilbert and Sulliven tunes. 

A clear sign of insanity if ever there was one...

[zadojla]

... They found it wandering in a circle, singing Gilbert and Sulliven tunes.... 

"My object all sublime, I shall achieve in time...."

[Loki]

The first imperative (serving the humans) drove it toward the danger, and the second (self-preservation) drove it back.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the second directive alyways overridden by the first one?

[zadojla]

The first imperative (serving the humans) drove it toward the danger, and the second (self-preservation) drove it back.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the second directive alyways overridden by the first one?

I believe you are correct, except it occurs to me that the the first law was not to harm a human or through inaction allow a human to come to harm, so we are really talking about the second and third laws.  It's been over 40 years since I read I, Robot, so the details are hazy.  I think there was some set-up in the story that made such an outcome "plausible".

And, as an old geek, I would like to note that Isaac Asimov was the commencement speaker when I graduated from college.  I can't remember a word he said now, but it was terrific at the time.

[raoullefere]

Have I managed to derail this thread?

(I hope so. Making the "Jump the Shark" thread jump the shark would be a real lion in my cap.)

[tomart]

Congrats, raoullefere!

"If anyone can do it, rauollefere can...."   

[Olymander]

The first imperative (serving the humans) drove it toward the danger, and the second (self-preservation) drove it back.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the second directive alyways overridden by the first one?

I believe you are correct, except it occurs to me that the the first law was not to harm a human or through inaction allow a human to come to harm, so we are really talking about the second and third laws.  It's been over 40 years since I read I, Robot, so the details are hazy.  I think there was some set-up in the story that made such an outcome "plausible".

And, as an old geek, I would like to note that Isaac Asimov was the commencement speaker when I graduated from college.  I can't remember a word he said now, but it was terrific at the time.

It was the short story Runaround.  I remember the story as well, and the associated link I gave gives a pretty good summary of the story.  As for Asimov being your commencement speaker... lucky!

[Carl-E]

Thank you!  It had been over 30 years since I read it, and damned if I could find a copy or remember the title. 

[Skewbrow]

It was the short story Runaround.  I remember the story as well, and the associated link I gave gives a pretty good summary of the story.  As for Asimov being your commencement speaker... lucky!

I remember that story, too. The good Dr Asimov wrote several such stories, where the conflicts resulting from Laws 1,2,3 played a key role. My favorite ones are (sorry can't remember the title) the one where the good guys identified a robot gone bad (among scores of look-alikes) by using the fact that the culprit was the only suspect, who would know that certain kind of radiation was harmless to humans. Therefore it felt compelled to act in a given setting. Its robot peers had learned that it is pointless to rush thru some radiation to the aid of humans, because their expensive brain would liquify before they could come to the aid. Another favorite of mine titled LIAR was about a robot that accidentally gained mind-reading powers. Therefore it felt compelled to deceive people about their romantic feelings being reciprocated.

Later the zeroth Law trumping the first law as developed by R. Giskard and R. Daneel Olivaw added another layer to the conflicts.

Commencement speaker? I envy you, Carl-E. At my commencement Bill Cosby was the speaker. Notre Dame granted him an honorary degree that year. All of us getting our PhDs got to shake hands with him, but Asimov... I would have been fanboying so hard...

[Carl-E]

Wasn't me, it was Zadojla the Wombat.  I have no idea who the hell spoke at my commencements.  I only attended one of them, anyway! 


...and I found out why I don't remember.  Purdue feels it's about the graduates, and so doesn't bring in big name speakers, never has.  You're addressed by the President of the University, the Chancellor, the valedictorian and salutatorian, and there's a non-denominational (but christian) blessing. 

I missed my Doctoral graduation from IU because I defended in July, and so "graduated" in August, when I already had started a teaching position in a different state. 

Got the diploma in the mail about three weeks later. 

[zadojla]

Wasn't me, it was Zadojla the Wombat.  I have no idea who the hell spoke at my commencements.  I only attended one of them, anyway! 

I bet you would have attanded if Isaac Asimov were speaking!  A couple years later my best friend graduated, and Carl Sagan was the speaker.  That was pretty good too, but he talked in "technical syntax" and pretty much lost all the family members.  It was a engineering/science school.

[Skewbrow]

Wasn't me, it was Zadojla the Wombat.  I have no idea who the hell spoke at my commencements.  I only attended one of them, anyway! 

Sorry. I really should learn how to read a chain of quotes.

[Olymander]

It was the short story Runaround.  I remember the story as well, and the associated link I gave gives a pretty good summary of the story.  As for Asimov being your commencement speaker... lucky!

I remember that story, too. The good Dr Asimov wrote several such stories, where the conflicts resulting from Laws 1,2,3 played a key role. My favorite ones are (sorry can't remember the title) the one where the good guys identified a robot gone bad (among scores of look-alikes) by using the fact that the culprit was the only suspect, who would know that certain kind of radiation was harmless to humans. Therefore it felt compelled to act in a given setting. Its robot peers had learned that it is pointless to rush thru some radiation to the aid of humans, because their expensive brain would liquify before they could come to the aid. Another favorite of mine titled LIAR was about a robot that accidentally gained mind-reading powers. Therefore it felt compelled to deceive people about their romantic feelings being reciprocated.

For the record, the story you can't remember the name of is Little Lost Robot.

[Skewbrow]

For the record, the story you can't remember the name of is Little Lost Robot.

That's the one. Thanks for the link.

[jwhouk]

All righty, I'll be the first to say it:

If Dora and Marten break up, Fonzie has just cleared the shark tank.

[raoullefere]

That makes little sense. I call it a desperate ploy to bring this thread back on track.

But I'll bite: where, oh wise jwhouk, doth the impressive stone tablet lie, whereupon it is written, nay, chiseled:

And Behold: Dora and Marten shall a matched pair, two and one, remain for all of time. And, should the twain not remain as one, e'en then wilt thou knoweth that is a SIGN that the time draws near when a man of the great Tribe of the very Latins, yet not a Latin in truth, his ebon hair anointed with fine ichors, shall don both a kirtle most hideously and brightly patterned and yet, e'en though the bright Sun doth shine down upon him, shall yet adorn his upper person with the cloth-lined hide of an ox made ebon. And upon his feet shall he set great wide lathes of wood that yet is e'en not wood; and in his hands shall he grasp a cord; and to that cord shall be tethered a howling monster that doth course over the waters at speeds undream'ed. And e'en shall that monster pull yon man of the Latins, yet not, BY the cord and nearer and nearer unto a great enclosure set in the azure waters, within which lurk hungry fishes of the deep eager to feast upon him. And shall he pass over, or shall he e'en be consumed? That, shall ye NOT know, save that ye attune that incandescent panel of light on which these images that thrill the blood do appear within so that it will e'en bring unto ye this fateful image in the season that doth follow.

Then shall come the END times, and all that ye know and, yea, also that which ye hoped to know, ALL will be thrown into the maw of chaos, which shall chew and e'en REND it into a shape most unpleasing, and never again shall aught be right.


Because I know I missed it.

[Carl-E]

Didn't you get your copy of The Apocrypha? 

Book of Steve, ch. 23, v, 15 - 28. 

Seriously, though, setting the boundaries is a relationship hurdle to be gotten over.  Dora may have just employed the Monster Truck option, but I'd be surprised if this led to a permanent break-up. 

Not that it won't happen, but I would  be surprised. 

However, ther will  be much wailing, and gnashing of teeth. 

[TRVA123]

on the original topic (although Asimov is awesome!)

Jeph runs out of story arcs and resorts to bringing in celebrity guests. Hanner's Dad invites Hanners, Tai and Marigold to visit him on the space station, Hermione and Ginny (as celebrity guests of the week) apparate to the station as well. Tai and Marigold team up with Hermione and Ginny to fight the SPACE WIZARDS, who turn out to be HannerDad under the alias Griznok with an army of evil wizardbots.

Hermione and Ginny hook up, Tai and Marigold hook up, doing it side by side on the surface of the moon. Their lovemaking overwhelmes Space HannerDad Griznok and Harry is able to kill him. Hanners and YellingBird (who happens to be on the space station due to deus ex machina) write an exciting fanfic based on the events.

[clockworkjames]

Zombie apocolypse and everyone has to survive and pretty soon it's just robots and zombies left.

[raoullefere]

on the original topic (although Asimov is awesome!)

Jeph runs out of story arcs and resorts to bringing in celebrity guests. Hanner's Dad invites Hanners, Tai and Marigold to visit him on the space station, Hermione and Ginny (as celebrity guests of the week) apparate to the station as well. Tai and Marigold team up with Hermione and Ginny to fight the SPACE WIZARDS, who turn out to be HannerDad under the alias Griznok with an army of evil wizardbots.

Hermione and Ginny hook up, Tai and Marigold hook up, doing it side by side on the surface of the moon. Their lovemaking overwhelmes Space HannerDad Griznok and Harry is able to kill him. Hanners and YellingBird (who happens to be on the space station due to deus ex machina) write an exciting fanfic based on the events.

That isn't jumping the shark—it's Jeph doing LSD. I know I shouldn't take this seriously, but I simply have to ask: can fanfic be written about 'actual' (sure, the whole thing is the drug playing merry hell with Jeph's brain, but it's real to the characters) events?

[dps]

The cast get assimilated by the Borg.

[akronnick]

And then Hannelore dissolves them all in a big vat of reactor coolant because Borg are icky.

[sirisaacnuton]

That isn't jumping the shark—it's Jeph doing LSD. I know I shouldn't take this seriously, but I simply have to ask: can fanfic be written about 'actual' (sure, the whole thing is the drug playing merry hell with Jeph's brain, but it's real to the characters) events?

Stephen King wrote some books that contained characters from his other books, who then discovered the other books in which they were characters, then some characters from his books go to visit King to make sure he does in fact end up writing the books from which the characters came.  It was hella trippy.  In fact, I believe in an epilogue to one book he actually killed himself off before he had written that very book. 

That's it!!  The jumping the shark comes when Jeph shows up in comic, kills all the dudes, and does all the hot ladies he loves to draw.  Like the opposite of fanservice...authorservice.  Brilliant.

My theory is Pintsioze does that which Marten dares not. Marten acting out all the deviant behavior he's programmed into Pintsize while said tries to stop him, similar to Winslow shepherding Hanners—that might be put da Fonz on da skis.

Now I'm picturing Pintsize as being Marten's Tyler Durden.  Awesome.

[benenator]

The cast gets assimilated by Pintsize. With giant chrome wangs.

Fixed it for you.  Now, to actually attempt contributing to the thread:

Marten gets pregnant. Not Faye, not Dora, not even Hannellore (although that would be setting up the ramp) -- Marten. Hey, the QC-verse is a weird place, remember? Commonplace sentient robots. 

Okay, fine, I'll be serious: Jeph starts actually reading the General Discussion forums and taking ideas from it.

[Is it cold in here?]

But whose baby would it be? I vote Hannelore.

[jwhouk]

I'm from Milwaukee.

Fonzie just cleared the ramp.

[Wiregeek]

Now I'm picturing Pintsize as being Marten's Tyler Durden.  Awesome.

Marten.

Marten.

I want you to root me as hard as you can

[TRVA123]

That isn't jumping the shark—it's Jeph doing LSD. I know I shouldn't take this seriously, but I simply have to ask: can fanfic be written about 'actual' (sure, the whole thing is the drug playing merry hell with Jeph's brain, but it's real to the characters) events?

I think so, I mean people write fanfics about bands that they like or famous people.... At this point the only criteria for fanfiction seems to be: amateur writer, involving characters that the author didn't create, doing things that don't happen(or reading way too much into things) in the fiction.

I'm sure that Yelling Bird would take the story to new levels of fanfiction crudeness and change the story to have more sex/what have you.