Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
Atheist Penelope
sevti:
As an atheist, I will never tell someone that their god(s) do(es) not exist. I will tell them I don't believe in a god's influence on my life or death, but what does it matter so long as you are content with what you believe? If they want to "save" me I have to stop/leave/change discussion. Every religion is a door to the same end, and we each have a key. My key fits the door with no scripture, no face, an absence of something to touch and realize. Others have keys to doors with the Torah, or the Bible, or the Koran, or Buddah, or anything else. That doesn't make their key any less real. So if I was asked, "do you believe all gods exist?" and I could only answer yes or no, I would have to answer yes. But if the question was "do you have faith in one or all gods?" the answer would be no. I hope this helps settle the "that's not atheism" response.
Thaaaat said, pretty sure religion is one of those taboo things, although the strip did beg for it a bit. I'll admit I haven't perused all 6 pages, but I am sure anything I could possibly say that is on-topic (Penelope's particular brand of atheism) would be wholly redundant.
Demarken:
--- Quote from: Jackie Blue on 09 Jan 2009, 11:45 ---That's a nice semantic trick, saying that assuming something doesn't exist isn't the same as believing it doesn't.
Whether you like it or not, some atheists do say "There definitely is no God, period." If you think you're not one of them, that's between you and... well, the Tooth Fairy, I suppose. :wink:
--- End quote ---
Remember back when you were talking about how it's unfair to characterize all Christians as literal-interpretationists based on a vocal minority?
jtheory:
--- Quote from: RovingSoul on 25 Jan 2009, 19:01 ---I believe that they all exist. That doesn't mean that I worship or agree with them all. Like, most American's would agree that Communism, Socialism, etc. exist, but we don't necessarily agree with their values or what they teach. However, just because we disagree with them doesn't mean that we disregard their existence.
--- End quote ---
But deities aren't normally defined as abstract sets of ideas developed by people, like Communism, Socialism and so on. They're defined at a minimum as supernatural, sentient entities with varying superhuman powers. What do you mean by their "existing"? Related: would you say the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists?
If you "believe that they all exist" but you just mean "these concepts of deities exist", that's going to muddle up a lot of people; you wouldn't say "I believe that hobgoblins exist" when you actually mean that yes, there are plenty of people who have very clear ideas of what hobgoblins are like and believe they exist... so that CONCEPT definitely exists.
I'm not sure that's what you're saying; do you think all of these gods exist in the sense that they have ever actually influenced physical reality separate from the secondary influence of believers?
--- Quote from: sevti on 25 Jan 2009, 20:41 ---[...] but what does it matter so long as you are content with what you believe? If they want to "save" me I have to stop/leave/change discussion.
--- End quote ---
I think most atheists would agree that people have the right to believe what they want to, though that right needs to stop when it infringes on *others'* rights. Unfortunately, many major religions don't include caveats that "the other folks are just as likely to be correct as you are, if not more so". As a result, religious beliefs very quickly start to influence laws, political choices, education, etc. etc., all of which are things you can't just walk away from.
There's more on this earlier in the thread, I think.
--- Quote from: sevti on 25 Jan 2009, 20:41 ---Every religion is a door to the same end, and we each have a key. My key fits the door with no scripture, no face, an absence of something to touch and realize. Others have keys to doors with the Torah, or the Bible, or the Koran, or Buddah, or anything else. That doesn't make their key any less real.
--- End quote ---
We're all born into this world knowing nothing; then we are bombarded with varying (and sometimes conflicting) explanations and models for the functioning of the world from all sides. They aren't all equally valid or even useful based on what we can actually know about the world -- you have to discard many, many bits along the way as you decide what works and what doesn't.
I don't like the metaphor of a door & key, because religion is far more complex than that -- and you can, in fact, pick and choose the useful bits from the non-useful bits in any religion's enormous and multilayered array of beliefs. AND each bit will modify the way you think and interact with the world -- it's not true that any set of beliefs will lead you to the same result. The important thing is to actively evaluate as much as possible.
Jackie Blue:
--- Quote from: Demarken on 25 Jan 2009, 21:00 ---Remember back when you were talking about how it's unfair to characterize all Christians as literal-interpretationists based on a vocal minority?
--- End quote ---
Well, yes. I wasn't talking about painting all atheists with one broad stroke, I was saying that people who claim that there are not a significant number of atheists who believe there definitely is no God are being factually inaccurate, just as it would be inaccurate to claim there aren't any Christians who believe everyone except their particular branch of that religion is going to a literal fiery burny place when they die.
Demarken:
--- Quote from: Jackie Blue on 26 Jan 2009, 16:20 ---
--- Quote from: Demarken on 25 Jan 2009, 21:00 ---Remember back when you were talking about how it's unfair to characterize all Christians as literal-interpretationists based on a vocal minority?
--- End quote ---
Well, yes. I wasn't talking about painting all atheists with one broad stroke, I was saying that people who claim that there are not a significant number of atheists who believe there definitely is no God are being factually inaccurate, just as it would be inaccurate to claim there aren't any Christians who believe everyone except their particular branch of that religion is going to a literal fiery burny place when they die.
--- End quote ---
Well, correct me if I'm interpreting you wrongly, but it sounds like you're saying that your partial characterization is more accurate?
If so, I'd have to strongly disagree with you. When I first saw your initial post, I was at first really confused by your underplaying of literal-interpretationists. See, I'm from central Iowa, and we have one of those conservative, evangelical megachurches in my hometown. When you talk about literal-interpretationists as rare or a myth, it's striking a complete dischord with everything in my personal experience. There are lots of people I know who do, very firmly, believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God, and that everything in it is a perfect transcript of history. A few of my closer friends do strongly believe that my other-denominational Christian friends are going to hell. They definitely are NOT the majority, that's for sure - but that doesn't mean they aren't a sizeable chunk of the population. By denomination, they're a plurality here, about 1 in every 4 Christians. And it's actually lower here, in our fairly liberal college town; accross the U.S., a 2001 poll showed that 41% of Christians see the Bible as the literal and perfect word of God. (Based on their last poll before that, I'd say that it's most likely about 33% today, but do not have current data)
So, I don't mean to say "ALL XIANS ARE FANATIC YOUNG-EARTHERS OMG," but it's just as inaccurate as downplaying the militant atheists. Either is understandable, really, because we never hear from the others. Absolutely none of the majority of Christians I know, the more laid-back type, have ever really discussed religion with me. Only the hard-core evangelicals touch it. So even though I know they aren't the majority view, their arguments are the ones that come to mind when I think about religion. And I'm sure the same holds for the other side. I can only think of one or two really militant positive-affirmation atheists I know, but they're the ones who talk about it the most.
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