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[Tyler]

Pretty funny, right?

[Lines]

HAR HAR HAR, TYLER YOU SO FUNNY!

[Barmymoo]

Through this forum, I have met...
...uhm
Tommy.
-FML

Screw you Darrly you met me too! Or do you mean that Tommy is a bad thing, but you have met good peoples too?

[Sox]

Well, I've met Ian, Zach, Katie, you, Luke and Will. You're all delightful so I can't really make the same joke about any of you guys.

[tania]

there is a guy i see a lot when i am walking to work, sometimes he is walking too and sometimes he is in his car but about four or five times so far whenever he's seen me he's stopped and yelled "hey call me!" or "hey what are you doing tonight?" or tried to make small talk with me or some combination of all three, and it is super confusing because at first i thought he was just hitting on me and i sort of smiled and walked away but now that it's happened a few more times i am thinking he may have somehow completely confused me for someone else because how can i call him if he's never given me his number and i don't actually have any idea who he is? or is this just a weird harassment thing dumb guys do sometimes? i kind of want to confront him on this next time i see him but i'm not sure what to say or how to avoid being too rude because i don't actually have any idea what's going on.

[KvP]

Depends on the woman I'd say.

there is a guy i see a lot when i am walking to work, sometimes he is walking too and sometimes he is in his car but about four or five times so far whenever he's seen me he's stopped and yelled "hey call me!" or "hey what are you doing tonight?" or tried to make small talk with me or some combination of all three, and it is super confusing because at first i thought he was just hitting on me and i sort of smiled and walked away but now that it's happened a few more times i am thinking he may have somehow completely confused me for someone else because how can i call him if he's never given me his number and i don't actually have any idea who he is? or is this just a weird harassment thing dumb guys do sometimes? i kind of want to confront him on this next time i see him but i'm not sure what to say or how to avoid being too rude because i don't actually have any idea what's going on.

I do believe you're being catcalled, although I could be wrong (when I imagine him saying that he's using a distinctive tone of voice) I say be rude, mad rude. If it's all a mistake then he still needs a new pair of eyes.

[Luke C]

When this thread started I was single now im in a relationship  go me

The fact im 20 and she only turns 18 on Friday and that we met via myspace are minor details.

[Dimmukane]

Ugh, why is this so hard?  We both acknowledge that we have the Best Times Ever when we are hanging out, and she says the only reason we're not Together is bad timing.  The Boyfriend/best friend (outside of her, obviously) is starting to get a little annoyed that her and I have so much fun.  Her and I have something so strong that I can almost touch it, and it's taking every ounce of willpower I have to let her go off and marry him and pretend that it doesn't bother me.  I've said my piece, so anything else I say to them about it is just redundant whining.  Why would she pursue a potentially rocky relationship that she acknowledges isn't a sure thing and not try to explore the almost euphoric bond that we have?  I can stay in the role of friend, but it is with the utmost difficulty that I do so.  If she chooses to explore our relationship after she's married, I honestly don't think I have it in me to stop her.

I'm sorry to keep bringing this up, but it is really digging its claws into me, and damn near everything on TV is reminding me of my situation and digging them in further.

[Inlander]

i got a feeling

The Four Tops already did a song with that name.

It was better.

[benji]

Ugh, why is this so hard?  We both acknowledge that we have the Best Times Ever when we are hanging out, and she says the only reason we're not Together is bad timing.  The Boyfriend/best friend (outside of her, obviously) is starting to get a little annoyed that her and I have so much fun.  Her and I have something so strong that I can almost touch it, and it's taking every ounce of willpower I have to let her go off and marry him and pretend that it doesn't bother me.  I've said my piece, so anything else I say to them about it is just redundant whining.  Why would she pursue a potentially rocky relationship that she acknowledges isn't a sure thing and not try to explore the almost euphoric bond that we have?  I can stay in the role of friend, but it is with the utmost difficulty that I do so.  If she chooses to explore our relationship after she's married, I honestly don't think I have it in me to stop her.

I'm sorry to keep bringing this up, but it is really digging its claws into me, and damn near everything on TV is reminding me of my situation and digging them in further.

Have you considered maybe not hanging around these people anymore? Honestly, I know you have feelings for her, but she's marrying someone else. If you can't just be her friend anymore because the feelings are too intense, I'd say move on. Completely. Forget them as friends and get on with your life. Go teach English on Mongolia for a year or something. This obviously can't end well, so get out now.

[Dimmukane]

First, that's not really an option.  Second, I was less trying to figure out what to do and more trying to find an answer to this question:

Why would she pursue a potentially rocky relationship that she acknowledges isn't a sure thing and not try to explore the almost euphoric bond that we have? 

[Reed]

Because people (especially in romantic situations) are far from logical. She is probably holding on to what they once had, not what they have now.

Why is it not an option to remove yourself from the situation? It seems like a bad place to be. You will continually be disappointed as she acts like she loves you, but (from the sound of it) will most likely marry him.

[Dimmukane]

Because there's a decent chance that she will go out to Arizona for 12 days and come back still not wearing a ring.  I talked to him a few days ago, and he might not do it yet.  He's primarily concerned with seeing her again, and she sees this as more of a vacation than anything else.  The odds that they are getting married in the next couple weeks are actually pretty slim.  I'm holding on to that, because if we have a little more time, I know she'll come around.  We are essentially already in a relationship, we just haven't expressed that physically.  She keeps getting closer to realizing that; I can see it in her expressions and hear it in her voice.  You can almost smell the restraint.

If they do get married, fine, whatever.  But I'm not giving up on this until that's actually happened.

[benji]

So it's not that it's not an option. It's that you refuse to take that option unless and until they actually get hitched. Good enough. Still, Mongolia awaits. Just think of her jealousy when you come back with a beautiful Mongolian bride. 



Edit: I think this picture might be better:

[onewheelwizzard]

It's going to be a great day when mainstream cultural norms in Western society finally recognize and accommodate the fact that a person can love more than partner at once.

[Dazed]

Monogamy is just a function of Capitalism and also ingrained into "Western society" by several thousand years of Judeo-Christian tradition..

[Dimmukane]

It's going to be a great day when mainstream cultural norms in Western society finally recognize and accommodate the fact that a person can love more than partner at once.

I've even tried to bring that up.  I'd be perfectly fine with that situation as long as she acknowledges what we have.  I suggested the idea to him, and he thought I was joking, so I shut up about it.  The fact is, she loves two people but can't act on one of those relationships because of what the other person might do.

[onewheelwizzard]

Would you really be fine with it?  I mean, that's saying a lot.  How excited would you be about the prospect of sharing her?

[Dimmukane]

Yeah, I would.  I care about both of them a lot, although he is making it harder for me to feel that way about him.  He's been in purely physical relationships with two women simultaneously before, I don't know why he thinks she shouldn't get the same option.  I don't know how excited I would be, but I know she loves me and still loves him and if it'd be easier for her to not have to choose between us, I'd be happy.

[onewheelwizzard]

Sounds fair enough to me.  I mean, it's always harder in practice than theory, of course, but if you're in that OK-with-sharing headspace, if nothing else it's going to make whatever happens easier on you regardless of all other factors.  Being OK with sharing kind of necessarily implies being less upset about not being shared with, so you're in a better position to handle being left out of the equation than this other guy is.  That might not actually make you feel better but it's good to recognize.

[benji]

He's been in purely physical relationships with two women simultaneously before, I don't know why he thinks she shouldn't get the same option. 

This doesn't sound purely physical to me. Fooling around with a couple of people at once is one thing. Having a serious emotional relationship with more then one person is something very different. It sounds like he never really considered the possibility of a plural family before (which sounds like the model you're talking about here), so if that's really what you want, you'll need to suggest it again, make sure everyone knows you're serious, and then give them time to consider whether and by what conditions they could be happy in such a situation. I don't think it's something to rush in to, and if someone feels certain that it won't work for them, you guys need to be realistic about that.

[Jace]

Because there's a decent chance that she will go out to Arizona for 12 days 

she sees this as more of a vacation than anything else.

What part of Arizona in the summer is a vacation? seriously, I live here and people leave the state from May to September.

[Dimmukane]

She hasn't been on an unsupervised vacation before (excluding Senior Week, which is less a vacation and more of a binge), and she's turning 24 this week, so she wants to do something about it. 

[supersheep]

It's going to be a great day when mainstream cultural norms in Western society finally recognize and accommodate the fact that a person can love more than partner at once.

I have yet to see any polyamorous relationship that isn't simply an excuse to sleep around and replicates most of the problems of patriarchal and capitalist society - and that goes for (supposedly) polyamorous feminist political activists as much as anyone. Get rid of sexism and capital and I'll get behind that. Til then, I think that at the very least it is going to be very very hard, if not impossible. In a way I agree with the quote Tommy posted.

[pwhodges]

Monogamy is just a function of Capitalism.

Just to say - I was trying to put this in a quotation bubble but I hit italics instead.

I do not necessarily believe this, it is a bastardised Godard quotation.

OK, that's better - I was about to respond, simply: "tripe".

[mehmeh]

She hasn't been on an unsupervised vacation before (excluding Senior Week, which is less a vacation and more of a binge), and she's turning 24 this week, so she wants to do something about it. 

Seriously? A 24 year old who has never been on a vacation "unsupervised"? The fact that this girl can't make up her mind about whether to marry this guy or hook up with you already suggested that she's immature, but this is incredible. If you want to pursue your "euphoric bond" despite these two giant red flags then actually do something now, not later. Nothing says 'dick' like making a move on a married woman.


Oh, and Andy from Nova Scotia: the solution to your problems is to graduate high school and get the hell out of the Valley (or wherever it is you live, since I'm pretty sure it isn't Halifax). Go to college/university in a big city (or Halifax will do in a pinch). There will be lots of shirtless skinny indie boys for you to have soulful connections with who aren't banging your sister.

[onewheelwizzard]

It's going to be a great day when mainstream cultural norms in Western society finally recognize and accommodate the fact that a person can love more than partner at once.

I have yet to see any polyamorous relationship that isn't simply an excuse to sleep around and replicates most of the problems of patriarchal and capitalist society - and that goes for (supposedly) polyamorous feminist political activists as much as anyone. Get rid of sexism and capital and I'll get behind that. Til then, I think that at the very least it is going to be very very hard, if not impossible. In a way I agree with the quote Tommy posted.

That sucks, man!  I've seen it work several times, and work well at that.  I can only imagine that perhaps the communities or contexts that these relationships happened within were not necessarily particularly supportive of them.  Most of the successes I've seen in polyamory, I saw in a single place where it was understood and recognized by the considerable majority of the community ... enough people were getting together and sharing that worldview that a fair number of them just got really good at it.  A number of communities like that definitely exist, some of them are just relatively liberal areas of the world and some of them are more localized and deliberately formed (a radical example would be OneTaste in NYC and San Francisco).  Interestingly enough, getting rid of sexism and capital tend to be extremely high priorities in places like this.

The people in these places tend to be abnormally emotionally stable and healthy, too.  I mean, I would only really expect polyamory to succeed in contexts where that was true, so it makes sense, but that made it worth my while to look into, and I'm pretty happy I did.

[a pack of wolves]

Seriously? A 24 year old who has never been on a vacation "unsupervised"? The fact that this girl can't make up her mind about whether to marry this guy or hook up with you already suggested that she's immature, but this is incredible.

Or she could just be, you know, poor. I haven't really been on a holiday since I was 12 and I'm 26 now, but this is because I haven't had the money or opportunity.

[LeeC]

Wow what an interesting thread.

Dimmukane I dont want to come off that way but you have 2 choices.  Either A make your feelings known before she gets married (like now) because I agree making a move on a married girl is being a d-bag.  But whatever her answer is you must follow.  If she says she wants to hook up with you then yay but be warry of the guy, he will be angry for you stealing his girl.  If she says no then you must respect her wishes and move on (I know its hard...trust me!).  Option 2 is to just move on and let things between them play out.  It sounds like you are straining their relationship a bit, and she has pretty much told you that she is not interested in leaving the guy which is a good hint that she is not going to dump the guy and get with you.  I am not saying she wont but again its a hint which is why you have to get it straight with her.

as for the unsupervised vacation, I say everyone shold have one after hitting 18 just so they can at the very least expirence making their own decisions on when and where to go.  But mainly to have fun and not worry about their parents looking over their shoulder.  I went to italy and greece when I was like 20 and man it was great!  I had been living with my parents while going to community college but actually getting out on your own in a foreign place was just liberating and quite an experience.  Totatlly worth it if you have the time and the cash.

[Dimmukane]

We've already kind of resolved the issue.  I realized sometime last night that I can have feelings for someone and not act on them.  They're not going to go away, but I don't have to obsess over them until I get closure, which is what I was doing, and it was made a little more difficult because it wasn't a one-way thing.  The guy she's marrying has had feelings for his first girlfriend for the last 8 years, and he's still going through with this.  So her and I are still going to be best friends and whatnot.  If something were to happen, I still don't think I could stop it.  But I think I can be okay with this happening now.

And mehmeh, about the vacation, she's paid her way through school and had to cover several large debts (totaling somewhere near 20,000 dollars) in the last 6 years.  That she has any money left to do this at all is amazing.

[LeeC]

good to hear bro!

@benji: you know I always liked mongolia.  perhaps I should visit sometime.

[benji]

I seriously considered doing that teaching English in Mongolia program at one point when my professional life didn't seem to be going anywhere and I thought I could use a challenge. I might still do it some day.

The people in these places tend to be abnormally emotionally stable and healthy, too.  I mean, I would only really expect polyamory to succeed in contexts where that was true, so it makes sense, but that made it worth my while to look into, and I'm pretty happy I did.

I don't know. I feel like the poly folks I've met have been just as emotionally unstable as anyone, though maybe in different ways. There is a certain amount of emotional awareness that comes from seriously considering forms of relationships outside of societal norms, but that doesn't always lead to stability, nor does it necessarily remove some of the larger blind spots a person might have about their own emotions.

[LeeC]

you know whats weird.  I give great relationship advice to other people but I havnt had a steady GF for the past 8 years. 

[onewheelwizzard]

The people in these places tend to be abnormally emotionally stable and healthy, too.  I mean, I would only really expect polyamory to succeed in contexts where that was true, so it makes sense, but that made it worth my while to look into, and I'm pretty happy I did.

I don't know. I feel like the poly folks I've met have been just as emotionally unstable as anyone, though maybe in different ways. There is a certain amount of emotional awareness that comes from seriously considering forms of relationships outside of societal norms, but that doesn't always lead to stability, nor does it necessarily remove some of the larger blind spots a person might have about their own emotions.

I don't mean to say that I think considering polyamory directly leads to being more emotionally stable, although it may have sounded that way.  I think it's more likely to be the other way round.  That said, I've probably learned more about my own emotional blind spots through taking polyamory seriously than I ever did in monogamous relationships (which only makes sense given that I haven't been officially monogamous since high school).

[Vendetagainst]

you know whats weird.  I give great relationship advice to other people but I havnt had a steady GF for the past 8 years. 

This is because that giving advice is really easy but actually working around the intricacies and neuroses of human relationships is a lot harder. Or maybe it isn't, it's been a long time since I've been in a relationship...

[Dimmukane]

New twist: she is stranded in O'Hare airport and wants to come back.  I will have to see how this plays out. 

[snalin]

New twist: She is using both of you whenever she feels like doing that.

[Dimmukane]

Um, no.  That is pretty damn far from what is going on.

[nobo]

you sure? cause if i could find a way to stay committed to one girl and get my ego stroked by another without it backfiring on me, i sure as hell would do it

[Dimmukane]

Yeah, I'm sure.  If anything, we are both getting used by him.  The only reason they're still together is because she is willing to bend over backwards to make it work, marriage included.  He doesn't put a whole lot of work into strengthening their relationship.  And I've been putting myself through a pretty emotional gauntlet to let him do this.  Anyways, I have no idea of knowing whether or not she's actually coming home, her phone died.  If she does, I get a little more time; if not, oh well.

[Coward]

Dimmukane, after reading your posts my instinct says the situation is not going to end well. I would be inclined to get clear of it by a safe distance.

I know that's not particularly in-depth, nor do I think it's necessarily what you want to hear, but it's my take on it.

[Dimmukane]

Right now, I'm too tired to care.  I already knew it was not going to end well.  I've known it was not going to end well since it started.  I don't know if I'm going to avoid it, or if I ever intended to.  It'll happen sometime in the next few months.  I'm pretty sure I know how it ends, too.  There's still a window for me to get out of this, but I don't know when that closes or if I'm jumping through it.  If I don't, I can live with the way it'll end. 

This is what I get for trying to help people.  Maybe I should stop doing that.


Note: I'll probably have a wildly different attitude about it tomorrow.  It's been that kind of month.  Uncovering a lot of things I didn't realize and whatnot.


Edit: Really, it's not as bad as it sounds. I just keep going back and forth between totally fine with this course of events and totally not fine, and I haven't really been posting about it when I am fine with it.  I don't know if it's my brain chemistry going wonky or what.  Right now I'm not worried about the whole marriage bit, I'm just worried she's gonna wake up on a bench in O'Hare on her birthday and feel terrible about herself.

Double edit: She called, she's not waking up on a bench, but she's waking up alone in Chicago tomorrow on her birthday.  She already feels terrible because by the end of this she will have spent upwards of 6 hours waiting in line at customer service to get vouchers, plus she has blisters from her shoes.  Trying to quit smoking and can't have a cigarette in line.  Turning 24 and about to lose health insurance until she can get a job with coverage.  Doesn't know where her luggage is.  Waited in the plane to Arizona for an hour and a half before they decided it was canceled.  Her fiancee has not answered the phone for either of us, which is probably not his fault, but still.  Right now, I'm the only person she's not angry at.  The two of us had a fake birthday for her earlier this week, and it was the best day of our lives.  Now it's coming up on her actual birthday, and she feels like a failure, and no one can do anything about it.  Fuck.

Pants: At least he's not your friend.


Triple edit, if anyone's even reading this page anymore: She finally got out to Arizona.  Her luggage got there before she did, and the hotel they put her in didn't have any extra toiletry kits, so she is wearing two-day old clothes and hasn't had a shower since Wednesday and is sitting in Arizona.  Also, if she hadn't taken the flight she did (the first one, at 7 in the morning, meaning she got even less sleep than the night before), she would've been stuck again, because the rest out there are grounded due to weather.  She's feeling better, though, so thank god that's over.

[SonofZ3]

When this thread was started I was single. Then with a girl I had known in college. We broke up, now I'm with a different girl, and its pretty amazing. Yay for things working out.

[Jace]

I think I might be trying to get my friend to break up with her boyfriend who she argues with all the time so I can date her. It feels bad, but I know I'm so much better than this dude.

[iamiam]

just because she is no longer with her dick boyfriend does not necessarily me mean she will or should be with you.

[benji]

Yeah, helping her out of a bad relationship is good, but don't assume that she'll just run in to your arms. If it's a bad relationship, she might well want to be single for a while before rushing in to anything new.

[phooey]

Additionally, it doesn't look like you're in the unbiased position of the 'judge jury and executioner' pose you are saying you want to take.  The motive of wanting to date his girlfriend may have somewhat poisoned your perception of him.  You might want to at least consider the fact that you don't have all sides of the story, and it seems like you really just are doing it to get with the lass. 

[McTaggart]

Yeah, considering how much of a dick I thought the guy that ended up going out with this girl I had a huge crush on was without even meeting him, I wouldn't really put too much weight in how you see their relationship.

[Jace]

Its true I don't have all sides of the story, but I know the dude, he is an aquaintance of mine. He's not really a stellar being. I dunno, girl keeps telling me more and more that she and I agree on that he doesn't like. Also she is miserable if she isn't in a relationship. And she sent me a picture of her in her undies. I am confused.

[Alex C]

Just hurry up and finish off their feeble relationship already. You may have some misgivings about the idea but it beats the hell out of the Saga of Dimmukane. Further, it is entirely possible that she may want to go ahead and date after this. As Benji said, there's a possibility she might not, but it's not really that much more or less likely than the notion that she is trying to trade up rather than get out of a relationship that is outright bad/dysfunctional. Mediocre relationships do happen and sometimes people do in fact segue from them straight into other relationships. With you. Sometimes this takes a nudge.