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Poll

The Moment of the Week in QC:

Chill And Understanding
- 0 (0%)
Faye Cliff Notes (and loading docks)
- 3 (5.9%)
The Angst Solstice
- 5 (9.8%)
"Are you gonna break up with me?"
- 2 (3.9%)
Something we gotta fix.
- 0 (0%)
Full Disclosure, Crazy Bitch and Sense of Timing
- 2 (3.9%)
"The first genuinely Nice Guy" she's been with
- 0 (0%)
"I love you." "I love you too."
- 10 (19.6%)
"LESS TALKING MORE HOT MAKE-UP SEX"
- 16 (31.4%)
Whole Social Circle imploding over no PANTS!
- 13 (25.5%)

Total Members Voted: 41


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Author Topic: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010 (1746-1750)  (Read 119526 times)

Heranje

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #250 on: 09 Sep 2010, 15:57 »

Of course, there's no way of knowing (currently) that Marten isn't lying about his past girlfriends, but considering his personality and the specificity of his claims, I sincerely doubt it.

Quote from: Odin
90% of my other internet posting is on the SomethingAwful forums, so the crossover of abrasiveness isn't intentional, it's just the general tone I'm used to having to constantly take with people.
Talk about being around toxic people...
« Last Edit: 09 Sep 2010, 16:00 by Heranje »
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raoullefere

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #251 on: 09 Sep 2010, 16:18 »

Faye moves to Minneapolis…

Who can scare the world just with her sneer?
Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all filled with fear?
Well it's you girl, and you should know it
With each little shake of your fist, girl, you show it

Snark is all around, because you make it
Piling on abuse, and we just take it
You're gonna make life living hell
With every latte that you sell


Dedala-dundun<Close-up of Faye winding up for a punch> POW!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8MWdNG3wsw&feature=related for those who don't get this)

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Mad Cat

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #252 on: 09 Sep 2010, 16:24 »

Wow. That was genuinely creative, raoullefere.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #253 on: 09 Sep 2010, 16:30 »

Faye moves to Minneapolis…

Who can scare the world just with her sneer?
Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all filled with fear?
Well it's you girl, and you should know it
With each little shake of your fist, girl, you show it

Snark is all around, because you make it
Piling on abuse, and we just take it
You're gonna make life living hell
With every latte that you sell


Dedala-dundun<Close-up of Faye winding up for a punch> POW!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8MWdNG3wsw&feature=related for those who don't get this)

Well done sir, well done.  *slow clap*

I like that Marten and Dora talked it out a bit more.  They have further to go, but it's a start.  I tihnk I'm ready to see what the morning brings for the QC folks, unless there's more harvesting to be done on the Angst Solstice.

As to the trolls (yes, plural), I will continue to Mab them.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #254 on: 09 Sep 2010, 16:35 »

Although, really Dora, don't encourage Pintsize.

Pintsize does not need any encouragement.  He's planning on recording the hot make-up sex and post it to the internet.   :laugh:

I just wanted to add that I enjoyed today's comic.
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nicoley

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #255 on: 09 Sep 2010, 16:50 »

I don't think it's fair to call someone a troll just because they are expressing their opinions in such a way that most people here are not familiar with. I actually agreed with what most of Odin had to say... while he may be abrasive at times, it doesn't mean he's trying to troll...
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #256 on: 09 Sep 2010, 17:26 »

Faye moves to Minneapolis…

Who can scare the world just with her sneer?
Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all filled with fear?
Well it's you girl, and you should know it
With each little shake of your fist, girl, you show it

Snark is all around, because you make it
Piling on abuse, and we just take it
You're gonna make life living hell
With every latte that you sell


Dedala-dundun<Close-up of Faye winding up for a punch> POW!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8MWdNG3wsw&feature=related for those who don't get this)

Thank you, you've made my day with that. :D
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brew

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #257 on: 09 Sep 2010, 17:28 »

Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna.

This is abuse?
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Tergon

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #258 on: 09 Sep 2010, 17:38 »

Rather than do a quotestorm, I'll keep it simple...

The problem I have in buying that the cast of QC are "toxic" is that in order to prove it, there's three or four examples being bandied about.  That would be okay... except that there are more than 1700 comics to choose from.  And yes, while each character has one or two examples in which they're an arsehole, I could just as easily claim every single other comic as an example of them not being one.  At most, they're being inconsistent, which Jeph has been saying all along is the case.  He's taken fairly realistic characters, dumped them in a ridiculously improbable universe of space travel and tiny robots, and then - this is the really, really important bit - stirred in a healthy dose of comic relief.

This could be a comic about people who are so perfect they could be nominated for Sainthood, who come from nuclear families, who have suffered no stress worse than a sore finger.  Except... that would be boring.  The point of QC is the wacky shenanigans that ensue as a direct result of the characters interacting.  And if they were all straight-laced vanilla folk who'd never dealt with stress before, their interactions wouldn't be interesting, let alone funny.
At the very most I could accept that the cast of QC are a group of damaged characters who came together and formed friendships.  Even that, I feel, is seriously pushing the bounds of realism about as badly as if I explained Lord Of The Rings as "The story of a group of friends trying to return unwanted jewelery to its place of origin."  The characters of QC are much more than that - they're entertaining because they're funny, quirky, and yes, have issues to deal with.  Just like regular people.  Maybe QC's issues tend more to the dramatic, but it's a story.  They're allowed to.  And I mostly think it's handled well.

And given all that... well, what are we saying?  Because these people have issues, they're not allowed to fall in love?  Not allowed to have a relationship?  They're somehow damaging to folks around them?  I just can't see it.

As for whether Odin's a troll... well, sir, you arrived being rude as hell, and I responded about the same back.  I am sorry about that.  It was late, I wass tired, yadda yadda yadda.  Either way, it may be that in other lands on these here Internets, you have to be abrasive to get the point across, but folks here tend to be smart and enjoy a good debate.  Which is why your point tends to carry better if you talk across to people rather than down.  I have no trouble with your viewpoint, even if I don't see it myself - but I love a good debate.  Just as long as you keep the insults and holier-than-thou clamped down a bit, you may yet convince us all you're human.  :P
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lunakitten

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #259 on: 09 Sep 2010, 17:41 »

Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna.

This is abuse?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
A roundabout way of hurting someone, but effective if your goal is to break them down and convince them they have gone crazy and need you to survive.
« Last Edit: 09 Sep 2010, 17:44 by lunakitten »
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The Duke

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #260 on: 09 Sep 2010, 18:19 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Well, stable, at least.  

We play scrabble, too, but I think that's more abusive...

Why? Because you lose?

No, because we spend he whole time trying to beat each other ... XD

That was terrible.

It beat the hell out of your cheap shot at his Scrabble skills, of all things.


Quote
Quote
*hefts the Useless Broom Made Entirely Out Of Dicks above his head*

Wouldn't you have to pull that out of your mouth first?

Yeah, you definitely seem like a guy who knows a lot about "intelligent discourse".
« Last Edit: 09 Sep 2010, 18:22 by The Duke »
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IanClark

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #261 on: 09 Sep 2010, 18:46 »

To summarize:

A toxic person is someone whose influence is overall harmful to the people around them.

Odin posits that most of the Questionable Content characters are toxic people due to their personalities.

We, the fans, are fans because we empathize with the characters.

People empathize best with people similar to themselves.

Therefore, the Questionable Content characters are at least somewhat similar in personality to the majority of the people reading it.

Therefore, Odin posits that we are all toxic people.

The implication that one is a toxic person is harmful to one's own self-esteem.

Odin's influence is therefore harmful to the people around him.

This makes Odin what?
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #262 on: 09 Sep 2010, 19:03 »

To summarize:

A toxic person is someone whose influence is overall harmful to the people around them.

Odin posits that most of the Questionable Content characters are toxic people due to their personalities.

We, the fans, are fans because we empathize with the characters.

People empathize best with people similar to themselves.

Therefore, the Questionable Content characters are at least somewhat similar in personality to the majority of the people reading it.

Therefore, Odin posits that we are all toxic people.

The implication that one is a toxic person is harmful to one's own self-esteem.

Odin's influence is therefore harmful to the people around him.

This makes Odin what?

This.
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tomart

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #263 on: 09 Sep 2010, 19:08 »

sorry, what's TL;DR ?

Although, really Dora, don't encourage Pintsize.

 :laugh:  Pintsize, Relationship Counselor.

Oh, and points to Marten for more full disclosure. So long as he holds to that, he keeps the moral authority (or whatever you want to call it)

I call it the moral high ground.  It's a good thing to hold onto.   :-D

Quote from: Moxie
Funny, I didn't have an issue with the word "handling", as I agree that Dora does need it. What I didn't like today was Marten's line of "You're not a mess" (because she is, albeit not as much of one as some others), and his line "We can fix this". I'm trying to decide what it is about that particular line that I don't like. I think it's partly the "we", because while Marten can help, I do think Dora needs outside help more...Marten's done all he can I believe.

I think he's saying these technically "inaccurate" things to make it clear to her that he's on her side in the coming struggle.  She needs his total support here, more than accurate criticism.   :oops:  (Some of us have had to learn that kind of discretion...)
« Last Edit: 10 Sep 2010, 19:04 by tomart »
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The Duke

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #264 on: 09 Sep 2010, 19:30 »

TL;DR or TLDNR stands for Too Long; Didn't Read or Too Long Did Not Read.
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tomart

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #265 on: 09 Sep 2010, 19:50 »

Thank you, Duke.

90% of my other internet posting is on the SomethingAwful forums, so the crossover of abrasiveness isn't intentional, it's just the general tone...

Thanks, Randy.     :-D    

>Edit, after Carl-E's correction below<       omg, you're right, Carl; sorry...   Sorry, Randy!  :oops:
« Last Edit: 10 Sep 2010, 19:06 by tomart »
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Carl-E

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #266 on: 09 Sep 2010, 19:54 »

I think you're confusing Something Awful with Something*Positive...
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Lost Coastlines

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #267 on: 09 Sep 2010, 19:55 »

Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna.

This is abuse?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
A roundabout way of hurting someone, but effective if your goal is to break them down and convince them they have gone crazy and need you to survive.

A little manipulative, but if that is the extent of the "abuser's" behavior, it doesn't amount to gaslighting.
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Akima

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #268 on: 09 Sep 2010, 20:56 »

Psychological abuse is real. I knew someone who would propose something reasonable and ask in a worried tone "Are you all right with that?", trying to get the other party to think they were being a prima donna.
This is abuse?
It is certainly manipulative, and quite enough to earn someone a place on my "watch it, this is a person to regard with caution and mistrust" list, but I'm not sure that I'd rank it as abuse.

So how do you solve a problem like Dora?
<SNIP>What saddens me is that no one got the reference in the title. :(
I don't know how many fans of "The Sound Of Music"  there are on this board.
« Last Edit: 09 Sep 2010, 21:08 by Akima »
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raoullefere

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #269 on: 09 Sep 2010, 21:27 »

Well, there are those of who are not, possibly because our parent insisted on watched the benighted thing every time E-annBeeCee (I think) trotted that nag out again, and there was only one TV in the house, so what do you do? (Read a ton, that's what) We are not fans of Gone With the Wind for similar reasons. We do like the book okay, though.

We did get the Dr. Demento ref: Tai Quan Leap.

We're now going to stop writing as though our last name is Windsor.

Edit: Another 'challenge': who got the movie ref in my post? Hint: It's missing a letter.
« Last Edit: 09 Sep 2010, 21:33 by raoullefere »
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Tergon

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #270 on: 09 Sep 2010, 21:51 »

Re: abusive relationships:

If I were to do something racially insensitive - for example, dropping an N-Bomb in casual conversation - I'd be called racist, even if I did not mean anything racially hurtful by saying it.  And rightly so.  It's not the intention behind the behaviour, it's the behaviour itself that defines what I've done.  And far more importantly, it's the consequences.  No matter how open-minded I was trying to be, if I'm being a racist prick, I deservingly get labelled as such.

So now let's assume I have a relationship with someone.  I don't go out of my way to make them miserable.  I don't shout at them or physically harm them in any way.  But, even if I'm totally ignorant to what I'm doing, I manage to get them to open their heart before I take a big steaming dump in there.  I do this over and over until the person I'm with feels like utter trash, at which point I break up with them.  At no point have I intentionally or maliciously tried to hurt them.  But, because of how I've acted, this will shatter their sense of self-worth and cause them to question every relationship they have later in life, acting like a damaged person.
The intentions may be different to a "real" abusive relationship.  The actions may be different to a "real" abusive relationship.  But the consequences, unfortunately, are not.  Especially if, like in Dora's case, this happens to you time after time after time.  It'd absolutely destroy you as a person.

I do get that if someone is in an intentionally, maliciously abusive relationship, it's a million times worse.  So if you've had to deal with that, then someone describing a string of ex-boyfriends who were dicks to be "abusive" may seem like they're cheapening it.  And I'm sorry.  Still, it's applying different standards to the same category of nastiness.  Just because Shitty Thing #1 is worse than Shitty Thing #2 does not mean that Shitty Thing #2 isn't shitty.
Speaking as myself I've never had to deal with that sort of thing, and C'thul'hu willing I never will.  But hey, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, and a relationship where one person's left in ruins while the other walks away as a high-and-mighty arsehole is abusive.  The end.

EDIT:
Also, yes, I did get The Sound Of Music.  Actually I saw that reference as being so easy that I assumed I must have been oblivious and missing what you were really referencing.  :D  Alas, I don't recognize raoullefere's latest challenge, though.
« Last Edit: 09 Sep 2010, 21:55 by Tergon »
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #271 on: 09 Sep 2010, 23:06 »

Yeah, unless you're describing it very poorly or not getting the whole story (and from the idea of executives getting counselling and suing, I imagine it's one of those), that doesn't sound like psychological abuse.  Which isn't to say there's no such thing - someone comparable to the man in Gaslight would certainly be guilty.
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Kugai

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #272 on: 09 Sep 2010, 23:11 »

Finally!!!

For some reason I haven't been able to get QC or the Forum to load all day down here where I am in Kiwiland.  I kept getting 'Can't Find Server' on my Browser (Safari) and it was even more frustrating when two of my friends, and fellow QC followers (but not Forumites) told me they could get it to load.  One's in Alaska and one's in Britain.

Good to be able to finally get back in, but that was totally weird.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #273 on: 09 Sep 2010, 23:25 »

if that is the extent of the "abuser's" behavior, it doesn't amount to gaslighting.
Oh, that wasn't the extent of it.
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Tergon

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #274 on: 09 Sep 2010, 23:27 »

Yay comic!

See, Faye, I could have told you already - all it takes is one little incident where you aren't wearing pants, and your social circle can be destroyed forever.

Incidents that can also destroy your social circle may include:

- Large amounts of yoghurt
- One or more live guinea pigs
- A snorkel
- A bouncing castle
- All of the above, plus no pants

...nobody goes to carnivals with me any more.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #275 on: 09 Sep 2010, 23:48 »

And here I thought it was your fascination with Gene Wilder.

Yay! Faye's still gainfully employed!
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #276 on: 09 Sep 2010, 23:50 »

If I were to do something racially insensitive - for example, dropping an N-Bomb in casual conversation - I'd be called racist, even if I did not mean anything racially hurtful by saying it.  And rightly so.  It's not the intention behind the behaviour, it's the behaviour itself that defines what I've done.  And far more importantly, it's the consequences.  No matter how open-minded I was trying to be, if I'm being a racist prick, I deservingly get labelled as such.

So now let's assume I have a relationship with someone.  I don't go out of my way to make them miserable.  I don't shout at them or physically harm them in any way.  But, even if I'm totally ignorant to what I'm doing, I manage to get them to open their heart before I take a big steaming dump in there.  I do this over and over until the person I'm with feels like utter trash, at which point I break up with them.  At no point have I intentionally or maliciously tried to hurt them.  But, because of how I've acted, this will shatter their sense of self-worth and cause them to question every relationship they have later in life, acting like a damaged person.

I'm not really sure I agree with either of those assertions.  If someone said or did something racially insensitive without hurtful intent, I'd give them a chance to explain or apologize before I assumed they are a racist.  Perhaps it was a foot-in-mouth moment, perhaps it was racial ignorance (which I do not consider the same as racism, but labeling a racially ignorant person as a racist without further conversation is a good way to turn them into one).  So I don't really agree that the racist label would necessarily be justified in that situation.

As for the relationship scenario, in that case some blame would have to be placed on the "victim" as well.  Just as you were theoretically blind to their attempts to move the relationship forward emotionally and to the pain you caused them by not obliging, they were blind to the fact that that is not what you wanted and/or you weren't getting their message.  Both parties failed to communicate effectively.   They are just as responsible for that damage as you are, if not more.  You didn't act abusively.  Obliviously, but not abusively.  This comparison is silly, but it is late.  I'm trying to enter a friend's house.  Instead of knocking or opening the door, I just walk towards it and expect them to open it for me.  They know I'm arriving around that time, but I have not alerted them to my arrival.  Thus, the door remains closed and I run into it.  I keep doing this and eventually I break my nose.  Maybe it's a little their fault, they knew I was coming over and could have looked for me.  But for the most part I did it to myself.  Regardless, my nose is still broken.

Quote
The intentions may be different to a "real" abusive relationship.  The actions may be different to a "real" abusive relationship.  But the consequences, unfortunately, are not.  Especially if, like in Dora's case, this happens to you time after time after time.  It'd absolutely destroy you as a person.
My point several posts ago is that Dora was not absolutely destroyed as a person.  She's got some issues, but if we're judging the consequences of the past relationships, she does not seem to have suffered anything at the level of emotional abuse.

Edit: The reasons I don't like the word "abuse" being used so loosely are more than personal annoyance and cheapening.  Say a girl was in a relationship with a guy who cheated on her.  After breaking up, she decides to refer to that relationship as abusive.  This affects how people treat her, particularly future boyfriends.  Perhaps it's not her intent to manipulate others, but that is what she is doing.  She could have received sympathy and attention by just telling the truth.  Future boyfriends would understand the importance of openness, loyalty and trust for her, assuming they aren't dolts.  But by using the word "abusive," she's exaggerating the gravity and manipulating them.  There are also people that are quick to accuse others of abuse when they are unhappy with how someone is treating them.  If the accused party's confidence/state of mind/etc. is not the greatest, the accusation may likely change how they interact with the accuser even if the accused party did nothing wrong.  Granted, some people do this to manipulate others on purpose.  But others many not realize the effect such an accusation could have.  For many people, "abuse" is a loaded word and IMHO, serious consideration should be put into using it.
« Last Edit: 10 Sep 2010, 00:27 by Lost Coastlines »
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #277 on: 10 Sep 2010, 00:14 »


I'm not really sure I agree with either of those assertions.  If someone said or did something racially insensitive without hurtful intent, I'd give them a chance to explain or apologize before I assumed they are a racist.  Perhaps it was a foot-in-mouth moment, perhaps it was racial ignorance (which I do not consider the same as racism, but labeling a racially ignorant person as a racist without further conversation is a good way to turn them into one).  So I don't really agree that the racist label would necessarily be justified in that situation.

As for the relationship scenario, in that case some blame would have to be placed on the "victim" as well.  Just as you were theoretically blind to their attempts to move the relationship forward emotionally and to the pain you caused them by not obliging, they were blind to the fact that that is not what you wanted and/or you weren't getting their message.  Both parties failed to communicate effectively.   They are just as responsible for that damage as you are, if not more.  You didn't act abusively.  Obliviously, but not abusively.  This comparison is silly, but it is late.  I'm trying to enter a friend's house.  Instead of knocking or opening the door, I just walk towards it and expect them to open it for me.  They know I'm arriving around that time, but I have not alerted them to my arrival.  Thus, the door remains closed and I run into it.  I keep doing this and eventually I break my nose.  Maybe it's a little their fault, they knew I was coming over and could have looked for me.  But for the most part I did it to myself.  Regardless, my nose is still broken.

Hmm... I guess I do see your point on that score, yes.  It's easy for me to say that Dora's the victim here because I like her character and all I have is a bunch of faceless bastards to represent her boyfriends, most of whom were apparently Alpha-Goths and at least one of whom is into Urinophillia.  So I'm not really being fair on that score.  She's done it to herself without properly considering that she can deal with it better.  I could argue about how it's still abuse if the victim doesn't do anything to help themselves, but you're right, she's not being an innocent little flower here.

My point several posts ago is that Dora was not absolutely destroyed as a person.  She's got some issues, but if we're judging the consequences of the past relationships, she does not seem to have suffered anything at the level of emotional abuse.

She still functions in a lot of ways, but she's also got some pretty severe problems.  She breaks into a screaming session at her two best friends, one of whom she loves, because the two are sitting around talking at night?  That's not a healthy person by any standard.  She's been damaged to the extent that she can't function properly.  Maybe not so much that it destroyed her life - that was a little bit of an overstatement - but I still think my sentiment remains valid.  It's crippled one aspect of her ability to interact with others, as a direct result of what happened to her in past relationships.

Again, I'm sure you've seen so much worse... this is a figurative bump on the knee compared to the mental (and physical) beatings some people take from properly abusive relaionships.  But it clearly wasn't any standard of a healthy relationship either.  So... I dont' know.  How do we look at this?
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #278 on: 10 Sep 2010, 00:39 »

So... I dont' know.  How do we look at this?

I actually think just saying "she dated a bunch of cheating bastards" sums it up pretty well.  Or "she was in several bad relationships."  That, in combination with being abandoned by her friends for Sven, explains her insecurity issues, I think.  I have some opinions on the latest outburst, but they're kind of irrelevant to the current conversation.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #279 on: 10 Sep 2010, 00:57 »

What Sven said is ambiguous and could cover anything from simply being inconsiderate up to being abusive in the strictest sense of the word. We just don't know.

But whatever happened was almost certainly bad enough for Faye to assault Dora's exes with dairy products.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #280 on: 10 Sep 2010, 01:23 »

For want of a pair of pants and a bra, the entire QC Continuum was lost.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #281 on: 10 Sep 2010, 01:26 »

But whatever happened was almost certainly bad enough for Faye to assault Dora's exes with dairy products.

Faye did that to Marten's ex girlfriend, not Dora's.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #282 on: 10 Sep 2010, 01:35 »

I never knew Faye was a fan of The Last Temptation of Christ. (I know, that's a little oblique. But work with me)

Urp. Ah. BurrraWALL 'o TEXT!

When a person reacts to a particular situation in a way completely out of keeping with the way she reacts to other closely related situations, my guess would be there's some sort of damage, some hurt that's been caused by that particular circumstance. With Dora, it seems to me to be Marten making choices she's not aware he's going to make, with an emphasis on these being related to his (in Dora's POV) cheating on her or getting ready to dump her. That's why it's okay for Marten to look at other girls when Dora's around—no threat. On the other hand, getting a haircut without discussing it with her is a threat. Why? There's a chance he's doing it to impress another woman, one that Dora knows nothing of because she was never in on 'the decision-making process.' Marten can dress up rather provocatively and pose with strange women (Magic Love Dude) when Dora knows what he's doing, but he can't sit in his underwear with Faye because she doesn't (or worse, is afraid she does). She tests him about Cosette because it falls into the same parameter—Marten interacting with another woman when Dora knows nothing of it. Notice Dora wasn't at all upset Marten got to see Tai bottomless because she knows what is and isn't happening then—the same for feeling up Hanners. Marten's never shown any attraction to Tai, who's a confirmed lesbian, and Hanners is clearly sexually disabled. Faye, on the other hand, has a romantic history with Marten, and so it trips Dora's trigger.

That's pretty specific, and suggests specific damage to me. The only incident that doesn't really fit that pattern is her blowing up at Faye over the Sven hook-up (not the fight with Marten, which does fit—in Doravision he's defending Faye because he prefers her). That suggests to me it's another sort of betrayal. It's simply my guess those friends using her to get into Sven's room and pants led to Dora thinking of herself as undesirable or unwanted, which made her ripe prey for these 'Alpha-Goths' to dominate. (Becomes Freudian) That ist vy I still blame Sven, and ze parents for letting him get avay mit his 'passive poaching.' (God, that was awful) It sends a definite message about your self-worth when it's demonstrated repeatedly you're simply a stepping stone to get to be with someone else. Having everything come easily to that someone reinforces the message—he's better than you, more deserving. Even the freaking Universe thinks so.

Something just occurred to me: is it possible the attraction of the Alpha-Goths (AGs) were they seemed to be similar to Sven—assertive, always get what they want, etc—and yet seems to actually want Dora? Interesting thought, anyway.

The weird mix in this to me is that Dora is otherwise assertive—in fact, I'd guess she actually 'went after' these AGs, stealing them from other girls (Sven makes a comment about this way back when), or so she thought. She may also have dumped them when they cheated on her, but it was still a betrayal, a repeat of the friends/Sven situation. In other words, Dora may have been angry, but she still set her failure down to her own lack of worth. Or it could simply be one of those inconsistancies we've been batting about.

I still think Dora's perception of her self-worth as a desirable person (not as a businesswoman—she seems, again, to be pretty specific) is at the core of all this, and I'm not sure just being more open is a fix, although it may be a start.

But that doesn't mean Dora's not worth Marten fighting for. Dora is a special snowflake to Marten, which, of course, means I take issue with one of Odin's points, his theory of 'trading up' to someone "better." It reminds me of an ass I know personally who claims that all people outside of immediate family (read brothers, sisters, parents) are 'fungible' (he's an accountant). Working on that theory, he's been married about six times now. I have no idea if he keeps 'moving up' or not (if he is, I can't tell), but I do know he's one of the loneliest people I've ever met.

I don't believe in 'soul-mates,' 'love at first sight,' or any of those staples of Hollowood (even though it could be said my own experience contradicts that) but I do think most of us can find someone who, even if they're not the prettiest, the wealthiest, the most chaste, the most uninhibited, the most intelligent, the cleverest, and so on, person who's ever existed, still clicks with us, if not, perhaps, with others. The 'click' is just the start, though. If you want more than that, you have to work at it, through bad times and good, and you really don't get to stop. Special snowflakes aren't found—they're very carefully crafted. Does the crafting always work? Of course not! You plays the game and you takes your chances, and sometimes, indeed, you counts up your losses, make a decision, and move on. But sometimes it does work…
« Last Edit: 10 Sep 2010, 02:26 by raoullefere »
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #283 on: 10 Sep 2010, 01:45 »

But whatever happened was almost certainly bad enough for Faye to assault Dora's exes with dairy products.

Faye did that to Marten's ex girlfriend, not Dora's.

The implication is that she would do the same for Dora's exes if the occasion arose.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #284 on: 10 Sep 2010, 02:26 »

How did Dora know that Faye was sans bra?
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #285 on: 10 Sep 2010, 02:49 »

Oh come on...

If you were there, how could you not tell?  It's an easy call with large-breasted women. 

Besides, they were practically in her face during the Faysplosion. 
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #286 on: 10 Sep 2010, 02:51 »


Lots of stuff . . .

Something just occurred to me: is it possible the attraction of the Alpha-Goths (AGs) were they seemed to be similar to Sven—assertive, always get what they want, etc—and yet seems to actually want Dora? Interesting thought, anyway.

Lots of stuff . . .


When I postulated the exes were goth versions of pre-Faye Sven, I had a similar feeling.  It seemed a little icky.  But maybe she felt if she could be with someone like Sven, then she was as desirable/successful/etc. as Sven.  More rivalry-related than icky.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I wanted to add my own thought.  Back when Dora was explaining her issues with Sven, she said popularity/girls/grades/professional success all came really easily to him and that she had to try to do a fraction as well as he did.  Then look at how Dora and Faye have done romantically since the comic started.  Marten, Angus, and Sven all fell pretty hard for Faye without any effort on her part.  Dora had to pursue Marten after Faye told him nothing would happen.  Yet again Dora finds herself in a situation where someone she is close to succeeds effortlessly when she has to really try to do just partially as well (though this time it was, in part, of her own making).  Is it possible that some of the rivalry and jealousy she felt with Sven has been transferred to Faye?  If so, then for Marten to leave her for Faye would feel a lot like the times her so-called friends would ditch her to hook up with her brother.  Just another reason why she would react so irrationally to finding Marten and Faye in a compromising position.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #287 on: 10 Sep 2010, 02:53 »

How did Dora know that Faye was sans bra?
With Faye it should be fairly bloody obvious to anyone who can see her actually move. We can't unfortunately.
Also if we assume that the characters "see" fully-realised and detailed life-like 3D objects instead of the reduced-complexity 2D models Jeph draws, bra- and panty-lines would be obvious through a t-shirt.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #288 on: 10 Sep 2010, 03:48 »

If we could get a look at Jeph's lovingly-rendered models of Faye's boobs it might help.  But they're covered with greasy fingerprints and lip marks.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #289 on: 10 Sep 2010, 04:23 »

But they're covered with greasy fingerprints and lip marks.
Wait, how do you know that?
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #290 on: 10 Sep 2010, 05:53 »

Talk about being around toxic people...

No shit, some morons over there are actually arguing that burning the Koran would be a smart thing to do in the thread they have over there discussing it and I'm having a very hard time not crossing even the very far-flung lines there telling them how fucking stupid they are.

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #291 on: 10 Sep 2010, 05:55 »

So how do you solve a problem like Dora?
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #292 on: 10 Sep 2010, 06:37 »

What is it with Bianchis and Faye's tits? I mean, it's one thing to notice. It's quite another thing to make comments! In the case of Sven, very rude comments.

As for, "For want of a bra and a pair of pants, the QC Continuum was lost", raise your hands, everyone who's ever gone to bed in an ensemble including both a bra and a pair of pants.

*raises hand*

Was it remotely comfortable? Hell no.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #293 on: 10 Sep 2010, 07:03 »

Oh come on...

If you were there, how could you not tell?  It's an easy call with large-breasted women. 

Besides, they were practically in her face during the Faysplosion. 
The way she walked into the room, it would have been PAINFULLY obvious.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #294 on: 10 Sep 2010, 07:06 »

What will be Faye's fate?

Back at work again - naturally.    - 9 (28.1%)
Dora will completely forget about her (think "Home Alone")    - 3 (9.4%)
She goes and elopes with Angus.    - 0 (0%)
She moves to Minneapolis to work at a local TV station.    - 4 (12.5%)
Two words: Yelling Bird.    - 2 (6.3%)
She opens her own Waffle House out by the Interstate.    - 3 (9.4%)
Asps.    - 1 (3.1%)
UBMEOD against Norse Gods.    - 10 (31.3%)

Total Voters: 32
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #295 on: 10 Sep 2010, 07:41 »

I have to say, even a crazy person could probably see Faye'd set her dependents free the first time she shifted position. Sven's overly detailed description backs that up—if you've ever seen one of those girls he's talking about walking about wearing only a t-shirt in one of those videos my friends forced me to watch back in the day*, you know what I mean.

Plus, doesn't Dora already know Faye doesn't sleep in a bra? (Does anyone actually do that?) She looked fairly unsupported back when she and Dora were standing around without pants, too.

When I postulated the exes were goth versions of pre-Faye Sven, I had a similar feeling.  It seemed a little icky.  But maybe she felt if she could be with someone like Sven, then she was as desirable/successful/etc. as Sven.  More rivalry-related than icky.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I wanted to add my own thought.  Back when Dora was explaining her issues with Sven, she said popularity/girls/grades/professional success all came really easily to him and that she had to try to do a fraction as well as he did.  Then look at how Dora and Faye have done romantically since the comic started.  Marten, Angus, and Sven all fell pretty hard for Faye without any effort on her part.  Dora had to pursue Marten after Faye told him nothing would happen.  Yet again Dora finds herself in a situation where someone she is close to succeeds effortlessly when she has to really try to do just partially as well (though this time it was, in part, of her own making).  Is it possible that some of the rivalry and jealousy she felt with Sven has been transferred to Faye?  If so, then for Marten to leave her for Faye would feel a lot like the times her so-called friends would ditch her to hook up with her brother.  Just another reason why she would react so irrationally to finding Marten and Faye in a compromising position.
I think rivalry, if you want to call it that, is the ticket. Dora doesn't want to boff Sven—she wants to be wanted like he is. I see what you're getting at about Dora and Faye, but at the same time it's a great stretch to see Faye, as defensive as she is, as Sven. Until, of course, Faye starts having sex with Sven. Then, my friend, you've a very definite case, if only because that situation throws Dora back into her old dynamic, something she's being trying to leave behind: hence her dropping the Goth thing, being interested in Marty as opposed to her usual 'type,' and so on.

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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #296 on: 10 Sep 2010, 07:58 »

Plus, doesn't Dora already know Faye doesn't sleep in a bra? (Does anyone actually do that?)
My partner does.  She complains that they are uncomfortable and shifty and wears a sports bra.
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #297 on: 10 Sep 2010, 08:13 »

Talk about being around toxic people...

No shit, some morons over there are actually arguing that burning the Koran would be a smart thing to do in the thread they have over there discussing it and I'm having a very hard time not crossing even the very far-flung lines there telling them how fucking stupid they are.
Ha. I liked what wheezywaiter said about that: "I also like to protest isolated incidents involving small groups of people in a way that will offend billions."


And re: comic, sleeping in a bra is the most uncomfortable thing. They're made for sitting upright/standing, not lying down and twisting around. I can't see the point of wearing one to bed.  :|
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #298 on: 10 Sep 2010, 08:14 »

What is it with Bianchis and Faye's tits? I mean, it's one thing to notice. It's quite another thing to make comments! In the case of Sven, very rude comments.

I'm sorry, "very rude"?  Did I miss them?   As I read his comments on her wonderful boobage, they are admiring, respectful, and impressed, not rude.  My favorite former GF had the body and breasts of a goddess, and she wore sports bras, almost exclusively.  

One could definitely tell when she did without.  

It was distracting to nearby male brains, such as mine, and perhaps I retain that awestruck, hushed, even worshipful state of mind, when Sven mentions these natural wonders.  :sigh:
« Last Edit: 10 Sep 2010, 08:26 by tomart »
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Re: WCDT - 6-10 September 2010
« Reply #299 on: 10 Sep 2010, 08:32 »

Plus, doesn't Dora already know Faye doesn't sleep in a bra? (Does anyone actually do that?)
My partner does.  She complains that they are uncomfortable and shifty and wears a sports bra.

I could understand that, actually. I have DD's and am unable to sleep on my stomach because of it. Wearing a shirt at the very least is mandatory, due to flopping, or "shifting," when I turn over.
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