Topic: WCDT 29 Nov-3 Dec (1806-1810) (Read 114677 times)

Tergon · « **Reply #300 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 20:29 »

...I said that I agree with you, and that he'd not make a good substitute-therapist for Dora...

iduguphergrave · « **Reply #301 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:05 »

Quote from: raoullefere on 01 Dec 2010, 20:23

Only. Heh. So because he only lies some of the time, Sven's not a liar? You don't think, if telling the tale of Dora and his childhood and including the role he played, he wouldn't shade the truth to favor himself or at least to let himself off easy?

Because I think he would. Epiphany or not, Sven's not exactly hard on himself most of the time. That may change, may have changed, and hell, Sven may have all sorts of good reasons for acting the way he does. But so far, he's been a self-serving putz much more than he's been a paragon of truth.

That has changed, as evidenced here and here. Nobody said he was a paragon of truth, but, especially recently, he's really realizing what a douche he's been. Not to mention if he really did trend towards trying to make himself not look like the bad guy, he wouldn't have been so apologetic in this strip (despite the fact that he didn't actually apologize, which I'm aware of). Sven's made mistakes, and he's quickly realizing that fact, and it's already changed him.

I think he's just oblivious to the fact that his actions growing up had a negative effect on Dora. It's not that he's in denial there; it probably hasn't even occurred to him. If Dora were to confront him about it at some point, I think he'd be surprised, and might deny it at first, but after thinking about it for a bit, realize she's got a point.

You should give Sven a little more credit; it takes awhile for someone to change for the better (see how long its taken Faye?), but he IS making progress.

Dr. ROFLPWN · « **Reply #302 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:21 »

Quote from: iduguphergrave on 01 Dec 2010, 21:05

Quote from: raoullefere on 01 Dec 2010, 20:23
Only. Heh. So because he only lies some of the time, Sven's not a liar? You don't think, if telling the tale of Dora and his childhood and including the role he played, he wouldn't shade the truth to favor himself or at least to let himself off easy?

Because I think he would. Epiphany or not, Sven's not exactly hard on himself most of the time. That may change, may have changed, and hell, Sven may have all sorts of good reasons for acting the way he does. But so far, he's been a self-serving putz much more than he's been a paragon of truth.

That has changed, as evidenced here and here. Nobody said he was a paragon of truth, but, especially recently, he's really realizing what a douche he's been. Not to mention if he really did trend towards trying to make himself not look like the bad guy, he wouldn't have been so apologetic in this strip (despite the fact that he didn't actually apologize, which I'm aware of). Sven's made mistakes, and he's quickly realizing that fact, and it's already changed him.

I think he's just oblivious to the fact that his actions growing up had a negative effect on Dora. It's not that he's in denial there; it probably hasn't even occurred to him. If Dora were to confront him about it at some point, I think he'd be surprised, and might deny it at first, but after thinking about it for a bit, realize she's got a point.

You should give Sven a little more credit; it takes awhile for someone to change for the better (see how long its taken Faye?), but he IS making progress.

You and Tergon must remember, raoullefere is a deep, deep loather of cads and defender of chivalry (I mean this in a complimentary fashion, sir), and Sven being the Patron Saint of Dudes Who Are Not Nice to Ladies All the Time, he and Sven would fistfight if Sven was not so fictional. He is not measuring Sven with the same stick as we are, and I would not want him to.

akronnick · « **Reply #303 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:33 »

You never know what you have until it's gone.

Poor Marten.

jwhouk · « **Reply #304 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:36 »

"But it was FREE..."

Carl-E · « **Reply #305 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:38 »

Wait, he's clearly told Tai, and her reaction is...

"...poor emo Marten..."

Gah. Her stock just dropped by several points in my portfolio.

Tergon · « **Reply #306 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:40 »

Nor am I claiming he's a saint. He's been an incredible asshat. The difference is, he owns up to it without the slightest attempt to justify or defend it. And he does indeed care about his sister. The examples I gave, the only ones given of him actually lying... they're lies for self-preservation, not self-gain. He doesn't want to get hurt by his ex, he doesn't want to be tempted by a night of sex with an old flame, and he doesn't want Faye to be upset and angry with him. He's not trying to get anything out of these lies except to avoid an unpleasant situation.

Maybe I'm only splitting hairs with the difference here, but I think there is one. He doesn't walk up to a lady and make her impossible promises in order to get laid, he doesn't lead women on and trick them, and he doesn't just tell women what they want to hear to make himself look good. On the contrary, he seems to go out of his way to make sure they know what kind of fellow he is and that there are no illusions between them of something significant when he thinks it's just about sex.
He uses women, and he is indeed unchivalrous, but whatever his other faults, he's honest. And I think, especially when it comes to his little sister, he'd maintain that honesty. The only problem is, as I first said in full agreement with others, is that his perspective of Dora's issues would not take in the full picture. Not to mention that since it's about (amongst other things) his little sister's sex life, he couldn't really be of much use if confronted with a full perspective.

Sven has done some things that make him a bit of an asshole, but he's not the devil incarnate. He has feelings, and emotions, and a conscience, and he's really pretty open about most things. That just doesn't mean he's a good choice for Dora to talk to about her issues, is all.

jwhouk · « **Reply #307 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:42 »

(Nudges Tergon) Uh, while you were posting that, Jeph put up the new strip.

"But it was FREE..."

Tobimaro · « **Reply #308 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:42 »

Just a couple of musings on the last two comics. First, it's good that Faye is doing her best to get Dora some help. And it's good for Faye to admit that she has some anger issues to work on.

And second, it might do Marten to get out and see what else is available. Yeah, the snacks at CoD were free, but the hidden costs are now becoming apparent.

jwhouk · « **Reply #309 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:43 »

Free Coffee > Psycho Girlfriend?

iduguphergrave · « **Reply #310 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:44 »

Quote from: Carl-E on 01 Dec 2010, 21:38

Wait, he's clearly told Tai, and her reaction is...

"...poor emo Marten..."

Gah. Her stock just dropped by several points in my portfolio.

That's only her reaction to his lamenting that he can't go to CoD anymore. We didn't see her initial reaction to the breakup news (which disappoints me a little).

The mental image of Marten foraging for acorns in a park while wearing the worry hat amuses me.

Tergon · « **Reply #311 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:44 »

(Nudges jwhouk) So he did!

Looks like Tai knows. I don't think she's being especially cruel to Marten here... when she's talked to him about her own relationship drama before, he responded in much the same way - gentle humour, a bit of teasing, and a few practical observations. While I suppose I could see Tai being the sort to give Marten a hug and a cup of hot cocoa, I don't think this is out of character for her either.

More to the point, now I want a free muffin.

Near Lurker · « **Reply #312 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:45 »

Now she gets her revenge for "happy batter."

Dr. ROFLPWN · « **Reply #313 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:47 »

Quote from: jwhouk on 01 Dec 2010, 21:36

"But it was FREE..."

Oh Marten. YOUR SORROW IS MY SORROW, YOU POOR BEHATTED BOY

Also, way to not be a best bro, Tai. You do NOT get bro grabs.

iduguphergrave · « **Reply #314 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:49 »

Quote from: Near Lurker on 01 Dec 2010, 21:45

Now she gets her revenge for "happy batter."

If Tai really wanted to get back at him for that, when he said he had to pay for food at other places, she could have suggested that he go home and make himself some "happy pancakes."

Also, you'd think a college student would be a little more sympathetic to someone who's disappointed about losing a free meal.

Kugai · « **Reply #315 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:53 »

Ahh, the perils of NOT banging the Coffee Shop owner.

But seriously, Marten is going to have to face Dora again at some stage, I think it would be best if it happens sooner than later. The longer he leaves it, the more difficult and awkward is't going to be when it happens.

After all, they were friends before they were partners, and it's only going to make things more difficult since they both move in the same circles.

Tergon · « **Reply #316 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 21:55 »

Piffle and tommyrot, sez I, sez I. Tai's not being nasty to Marten, this is how they talk to each other. Tai's making a few little jokes to cheer Marten up while offering some practical observations.

Heck, y'wanna see Marten being equally harsh to Tai on the subject of relationships? Try this. Or this. Or this. Or hey, how about this. That's just a handful of comics that are all within just a couple of QC "days". They talk about relationships, and when they do, they tease each other a bit, let each other vent, and then help each other get on with things.

So I shall give you bro-grabs, Tai. All the bro-grabs you wish.

tHEfOOL · « **Reply #317 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:11 »

aww man, i was all hoping to see crazyness ensue, oh well, funny snarky bit's are good too i guess

vforvancouver · « **Reply #318 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:12 »

Wow, the tattoo is back! I remember seeing the tattoo in Tai's elbow when she wrapped her boobs. Then, when she suddenly looked feminine, the tattoo vanished. But now it's back and Tai still looks like a girl!

Details, details.

themacnut · « **Reply #319 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:17 »

Quote from: Kugai on 01 Dec 2010, 21:53

Ahh, the perils of NOT banging the Coffee Shop owner.

Yeah losing access to free food, and ESPECIALLY free lattes, is something not to be taken lightly. Lattes alone are expensive, for an underemployed slacker like Marten those are gonna add up elsewhere

.

Quote from: Kugai on 01 Dec 2010, 21:53

But seriously, Marten is going to have to face Dora again at some stage, I think it would be best if it happens sooner than later. The longer he leaves it, the more difficult and awkward is't going to be when it happens.

After all, they were friends before they were partners, and it's only going to make things more difficult since they both move in the same circles.

Don't think either of them is gonna be ready for that for a good long time I think. Sure exes can become friends again, but it usually takes awhile for any lingering bad feelings over the breakup to fade first, which usually means them not seeing each other for a time. Sucks that they aren't going to be able to just "hang out" for awhile, but that tends to be the nature of all but the friendliest breakups, and Marten and Dora's breakup may have been mutual (more on Dora's part than Marten's I suspect) but it was NOT friendly. Sure there have been uglier breakups, but there have been nicer ones too.

Tergon · « **Reply #320 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:25 »

Sure they can. Just watch a little Friends and you can see they'll get together and break up six times per episode, and still hang out together.

laizeohbeets · « **Reply #321 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:30 »

Aaaaaand you just summed up why, exactly, I hate Friends.

themacnut · « **Reply #322 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:31 »

I'd say that was a TV show, but since we're talking about a webcomic, I say meh whatever.

redragon5000 · « **Reply #323 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:34 »

He'll need new equipment if he's gonna take on the squirrels. The Worry Hat doesn't add to defense...

Emperor Norton · « **Reply #324 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:38 »

Quote from: themacnut on 01 Dec 2010, 22:17

Don't think either of them is gonna be ready for that for a good long time I think. Sure exes can become friends again, but it usually takes awhile for any lingering bad feelings over the breakup to fade first, which usually means them not seeing each other for a time. Sucks that they aren't going to be able to just "hang out" for awhile, but that tends to be the nature of all but the friendliest breakups, and Marten and Dora's breakup may have been mutual (more on Dora's part than Marten's I suspect) but it was NOT friendly. Sure there have been uglier breakups, but there have been nicer ones too.

Actually, with Marten's personality... I don't think it would be as hard for him to adjust to good friends in a short (but somewhat painful) manner. Dora... probably not so much. But then again, that might be me projecting because I find myself to be a lot like a mix between him and Angus...

melly21 · « **Reply #325 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:50 »

I would be disappointed if I lost free muffins too

The coffee I couldn't care less about, I hate coffee.

He should go hook up with a chick that works at a burger joint or something. Not quality food but hey it's free!

lts · « **Reply #326 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:53 »

Nice comic today. But in the back of my mind, this is all I saw:

Sharp · « **Reply #327 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 22:59 »

Poor poor Marten.

~~"The best things in life are free!"~~ No no no Barrett Strong.

The best things in life are MUFFINS that are free!

Akima · « **Reply #328 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:02 »

Quote from: jwhouk on 01 Dec 2010, 21:42

"But it was FREE..."

No Grasshopper, the coffee and baked goods were not free. They were actually very expensive; you just did not pay for them with money. This is so of all the "best things in life" that the song mendaciously claims are free.

I loved Tai in this, even more than red-glowing-eyed Faye in yesterday's comic.

themacnut · « **Reply #329 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:05 »

As far as Marten being friends with Dora again goes, let's not forget his previous ex who he moved across the country to be with. When she showed up in the coffee shop, Marten didn't even want to talk to her. Far as I could tell from Marten's description, that breakup wasn't particularly nasty either, but Marten wanted nothing to do with the girl when he had the chance to talk to her.

Now part of that could be embarrassment over having put so much effort into trying to be with someone then learning she didn't want to be with him, but just wanted to put that out there to show Marten doesn't exactly have a history of maintaining friendships with exes. And no, Faye doesn't count IMO. She was never even his girlfriend, never mind his ex-girlfriend...

Sharp · « **Reply #330 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:11 »

I think people are jumping on the "friendship" wagon way too quick. It's only been a day since they split! Hell, it's probably been less than 12 hours! When they got together Marten was too nervous to see Dora until the next night, and that was a happy Marten. Give them time to awkward this out.

Yeah, I just used "awkward" as a verb.

Deal with it.

akronnick · « **Reply #331 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:15 »

The awkward, it, well it doesn't exactly burn but it's definitely uncomfortable.

And I just used awkward as a noun!

Suck it, grammar Nazis!

raoullefere · « **Reply #332 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:28 »

Given that he may indeed want to be friends with Dora in the future, I think Marten's wise to avoid her for now, and maybe for a month or so, or at least until that blow-up that we were talking about earlier occurs. It could be Marten, too, knows it's coming, and tearing into Dora before she gets her feet under some therapist's desk and seems willing to keep them there is just going to give her more bricks for Mount Denial.

I wonder if Faye's going to let him know about bullying Dora into therapy?

Anyway, Marten, if you're that strapped, it's time to start brown-bagging. And does this mean that we're going to see less of ye CoD?

lts · « **Reply #333 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:31 »

Quote from: Akima on 01 Dec 2010, 23:02

I loved Tai in this, even more than red-glowing-eyed Faye in yesterday's comic.

Hmmm...

Delator · « **Reply #334 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:32 »

Quote from: iduguphergrave on 01 Dec 2010, 21:44

We didn't see her initial reaction to the breakup news (which disappoints me a little).

Well, lets look at it for a second...

The Drama Bomb, and the Follow Up

Clearly there was more conversation after 1799...but all we hear of it is that the breakup was "mutual"

The Hug

Again, there's probably a good conversation taking place afterwards, but we don't see it, as it's off-panel.

Sven

Clearly he and Dora spoke about things, at least to the point of him going and picking up some of her stuff...but again, the conversation is off panel.

Hanners

Not sure just how far into her reaction we are, but clearly we're jumping in somewhere in the middle. We don't actually see Dora (or Faye) tell Hanners what happened.

...and today, where clearly Tai knows, but again, we didn't actually see the news being conveyed.

I love this comic, I really do...but the vast majority of the dramatic resolution to these latest developments is happening off-panel, and we're not getting much in the way of actual details. The other characters have been informed, and we're just supposed to accept that and move on.

This is somewhat disappointing,as there was a lot of potential there...Dora/Sven, Marten//Dora, Dora/Faye, Hanners, Marten/Tai. Some of that might still happen, but it won't be the immedeate reaction, it'll be follow-up. Which is fine...but I just feel like a good opportunity for characterization has simply been ignored.

...or we're just getting a weeks worth of punchlines before another bomb drops?

Quote from: Tergon on 01 Dec 2010, 21:55

Heck, y'wanna see Marten being equally harsh to Tai on the subject of relationships? Try this. Or this. Or this. Or hey, how about this.

Equally harsh??

Yeah...not seeing it.

Near Lurker · « **Reply #335 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:33 »

The fact is, Dora is Faye's boss and friend. Marten is Faye's roommate and, right now, and honestly for quite a long time, closest friend. Marten and Dora can't keep apart forever, any more than they could back at comic 75-100.

Tergon · « **Reply #336 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:36 »

Well, from the perspective that I don't think Tai is being at all harsh, it works. I mean in those links, Tai explains her relationship drama, and Marten's response is pretty much to make a joke. He's also kind and understanding, but he's trying to cheer her up with a bit of laughter. That's what it strikes me Tai is doing here, too. Maybe she's not being as tactful as possible, but then that's just her.

lts · « **Reply #337 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:50 »

Quote from: Tergon on 01 Dec 2010, 21:55

Heck, y'wanna see Marten being equally harsh to Tai on the subject of relationships? Try this. Or this. Or this. Or hey, how about this.

Or this.

snubnose · « **Reply #338 on:** 01 Dec 2010, 23:56 »

Its the little things that remind you of your loss, isnt it ?

Skelepunk · « **Reply #339 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:01 »

Quote from: akronnick on 01 Dec 2010, 23:15

The awkward, it, well it doesn't exactly burn but it's definitely uncomfortable.

And I just used awkward as a noun!

Suck it, grammar Nazis!

Awkward could be used as a substantial adjective. I think it'd still be correct.

themacnut · « **Reply #340 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:04 »

Quote from: Near Lurker on 01 Dec 2010, 23:33

The fact is, Dora is Faye's boss and friend. Marten is Faye's roommate and, right now, and honestly for quite a long time, closest friend. Marten and Dora can't keep apart forever, any more than they could back at comic 75-100.

Sure they can. All it takes is for Marten to stay out of Coffee of Doom, and Dora to not go anywhere near Marten and Faye's apartment. It would be like Faye never introduced them.

TRVA123 · « **Reply #341 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:10 »

Quote from: themacnut on 01 Dec 2010, 23:05

As far as Marten being friends with Dora again goes, let's not forget his previous ex who he moved across the country to be with. When she showed up in the coffee shop, Marten didn't even want to talk to her. Far as I could tell from Marten's description, that breakup wasn't particularly nasty either, but Marten wanted nothing to do with the girl when he had the chance to talk to her.

I think that Martin's breakup w/ previous ex was nasty. Even though it may not have involved tons of friends and a shared living situation, he MOVED ACROSS THE COUNTRY for her. It sounds like the relationship tanked not long after that. Martin had to be head over heels for that girl to do something like that, and I imagine that he was crushed.

Just because Martin's got a pretty philosophical way of dealing with everything doesn't mean that it wasn't nasty for him. I can completely understand why he would want to avoid her now. At the same time, it doesn't seem as though they have a shared friend group on this coast, so there's no motivation to keep the friendship going.

With Dora there's a shared friend group and a break up that I don't see being half as bad as Martin's previous one. We, the readers, took it pretty hard, and it's the biggest breakup there's been on QC, but in terms of real-world breakups this isn't that bad. I think there's a good chance that Martin and Dora will rekindle their friendship after they give each other some space to grow and move on.

tHEfOOL · « **Reply #342 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:13 »

i wnat a degree in squirrel fighting! WHERE CAN I GET ONE?!!

Justin Alexander · « **Reply #343 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:15 »

Quote from: Delator on 01 Dec 2010, 23:32

I love this comic, I really do...but the vast majority of the dramatic resolution to these latest developments is happening off-panel, and we're not getting much in the way of actual details. The other characters have been informed, and we're just supposed to accept that and move on.

This is somewhat disappointing,as there was a lot of potential there...Dora/Sven, Marten//Dora, Dora/Faye, Hanners, Marten/Tai. Some of that might still happen, but it won't be the immedeate reaction, it'll be follow-up. Which is fine...but I just feel like a good opportunity for characterization has simply been ignored.

Rookie storytelling mistake: You think there's a bunch of character development to be found there, but there really isn't because that conversation can only tell you two things. (1) Is the friend supportive? (2) Is the friend a douche?

It is, in fact, the follow-up conversations that allow characters to start giving their opinions on what's happening and in which we can see how Dora and Marten are being affected by it.

Now, there's a lot of pathos to be found in those moments. But those are empty calories in the fiction writer's diet, and I'm glad Jeph is smart enough to step over them and get to the interesting stuff sooner rather than later.

Dr. ROFLPWN · « **Reply #344 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:30 »

Quote from: tHEfOOL on 02 Dec 2010, 00:13

i wnat a degree in squirrel fighting! WHERE CAN I GET ONE?!!

I hear ITT Tech is doing those these days!

Also: Its, you are the hero of this thread.

QUESTIONABLE COMBAT (with squirrels)

teddybeer · « **Reply #345 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:35 »

Quote

I think there's a good chance that Martin and Dora will rekindle their friendship after they give each other some space to grow and move on.

I sure hope you're right. I'd be gutted if Marten really never went to CoD again or if we wouldn't even see him in the same comic as Dora again.

themacnut · « **Reply #346 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:39 »

Eh, why? Happens all the time in Real Life(TM); couples break up, and never want to see each other again. Circle of life, that is.

Is it cold in here? · « **Reply #347 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:44 »

There's a character who could mentor you in squirrel fighting.

Y · « **Reply #348 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:50 »

Unless it are Willy Wonka's squirrels you're fighting with.

Tergon · « **Reply #349 on:** 02 Dec 2010, 00:57 »

Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 02 Dec 2010, 00:44

There's a character who could mentor you in squirrel fighting.

Coincidence? I think not.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Poll

Who's next on the "Reaction to the Breakup" list?

Author Topic: WCDT 29 Nov-3 Dec (1806-1810) (Read 114677 times)

teddybeer