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women and music

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Elysiana:
But I guess that's kind of what the question is - why is it seen as negative when someone has those thoughts, shallow or not, when really it kind of is a natural thing? People automatically make assumptions about it such as "You said girl musicians are cute, why are you so sexist" when really it should be more "You said girl musicians are cute, that's cool that you view talent as a turn-on."

I don't think someone's altruism should be called into question just because they think someone is attractive or not. If they follow a band only because they think someone in it is hot then I don't think they're really a competent judge on whether that band is any good, but I also don't think it makes them sexist. That's like saying that if you have a crush on someone who's attractive, you're shallow.

KvP:

--- Quote from: pwhodges on 28 Feb 2011, 05:41 ---Given the shameful continuing persistence of the glass ceiling in business and politics, I think that female musicians are doing at least as well as their sisters in other professions.

--- End quote ---
I know that there have been studies that seem to show conclusively that if recitals are taped, with no indication of the gender of the performer, women do significantly better in competition.

Radical AC:
It is hard to judge people on their actions or intentions in a text based internet discussion.  Saying a girl musician is cute in the sense that it adds or subtracts from the band is by definition sexist even if it is, or is meant to be, harmless.  Sexism even in that form tends to have a negative connotation to certain people.  So, I think it is partly semantics, and partly a difference in acceptable viewpoints.

Elysiana:
Yeah, typing about a subject and waiting for replies often makes for misunderstandings, but I think we're doing well so far. Everyone's keeping a pretty level head.


Trying to follow here though. Are you essentially saying that people tend to see it as:
"That band is great" = acceptable
"That band is great and their lead singer is so hot" = possibly questionable
"That band is just okay but their lead singer is so hot, so I like them better than this other band that is arguably much better" = unacceptable

If so, I'm not sure sexism is really the right word for it. To me that implies that they think the band itself is better, which may or not be the case. It may be shallow, but I don't know that it's sexist. It would be more sexist to say "I think men are better musicians overall, and that lead singer is a male, so that band is better than this female-fronted band."

David_Dovey:

--- Quote from: sean on 28 Feb 2011, 09:44 ---yeah dovey that is all i meant, i am attracted to female musicians.

maybe i need to word my statements better but uh can you please stop misconstruing my statements/hating on me, i feel like you do that a lot.

--- End quote ---

Out of my recent posts I can find two examples of what might possible be seen as "hating on you" and the one in this thread was at least half jokey and the other one was 100% jokey. Stop misconstruing me/sack the fuck up kthx. I would've made my first post about anyone, sean. It's not 'cos I have any special beef with you, except maybe you make dumb posts more often than other people, so I end up calling you out more (read: twice!).

As I said, my comments were at least half jokey, and I honestly don't feel bad about the half of it wasn't. In a regular conversation I wouldn't begrudge anyone an opinion like that and I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing to think that someone is attractive- for whatever reason- but I found it amusing how quickly "cuteness" came up in a thread specifically about differing standards between male and female musicians.


--- Quote from: Elysiana on 28 Feb 2011, 10:36 ---It's funny, but I see that slight change in topic to be really relevant (regarding "girl musicians = win"). If I'd said "Man, boys who play guitar are cuuuute," I doubt anyone would have noticed. Cute does not necessarily mean cutesy - nobody would have assumed I meant "like a puppy or maybe a baby, d'awwww." Either way, I didn't read anything into Sean's post other than "girl musicians are cool, rock on." I don't really see why there's anything wrong with that, and honestly the biting response to it seems a good example of reverse sexism.
--- End quote ---

This is a false equivalence for several reasons, a couple being that
i) Of course looks matter in regards to success in music, for both sexes. I'm not gonna retrench arguments that were already made perfectly clear in Radical AC's posts upthread, but I will suggest you go ahead and GIS the Top 40/100/200/whatever bands in the charts right now, and -more pointedly- your favourite bands (it's oretty safe to assume that the Top 40 crowd and you don't have many picks in common if you're posting here) and tell me how many legitimately unattractive people you see. Even in the obscure corners of music fandom, looks are still counting. "Attractiveness" might be a far more niche prospect in indie rock or hardcore or metal based on the proclivities of the typical listener of that subgenre but it doesn't visual concerns re: musicians any less apparent.

ii) Once again, this is something that's been stated perfectly well in other posts, but while men are certainly subject to a lot of the same judgments re: looks as women, it always seems a lot easier to separate that from other signifiers of value like talent or skill. When judging female musicians, it's all too often that judgments of attractiveness are intrinsically tied to the overall view, and is far more central to the audience perception of the performer.


--- Quote --- don't really remember a lot of people going nuts over the fact that White Zombie had a female bassist, even after they became pretty mainstream.
--- End quote ---

Said bassist would have you believe otherwise


N.B; This post was written mostly before the last two posts were made so it kind of talks past points made in those posts and doesn't really address the additional questions raised, sorry.

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