Fun Stuff > BAND
women and music
rynne:
--- Quote from: David_Dovey on 28 Feb 2011, 09:20 ---Kim Gordon is an interesting case, namely because there was a period in Sonic Youth's history where she did very consciously make a shift from being just another band member to dressing up and playing ingenue, and this has certainly been read as a cynical move on the part of the band in an effort to draw more attention to themselves.
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No Wave was interesting in that pretty much every single band was co-ed. Some of the ladies flaunted their sexuality (usually confrontationally, e.g., Lydia Lunch), but at least as many didn't.
Elysiana:
Dovey - Okay, I getcha! Yes, I was under the assumption that you were saying it was maliciously sexist, but you cleared it up and that makes sense.
A question that crossed my mind that is related to the second half of your post, not because I think you implied it but because I'm curious to hear your opinion - do you think that less-attractive female musicians are seen as more genuine because they aren't "relying" on their looks? This is somewhat related to SWM's post about whether that group would be more popular if they were better-looking. If that's true, would they really have more fans or can you even call them fans at that point?
--- Quote from: Ptommydski on 28 Feb 2011, 14:03 ---I have a lot to say on this issue but for the most part I try to stay out of the debate because all the women I know in music hate it being brought up. I guess I can kind of see how having a male over-zealously defend perceived double standards can be yet another form of patronisation. So it's basically a kaleidoscope of difficulty, which undoubtedly contributes to how often it is swept under the rug.
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That's sad to me that you'd feel like you can't defend a position because it would be misconstrued like that. I've always found it frustrating that some women refuse to allow men to stand up for them. I don't like hearing women say "I don't need a MAN to help me out" because that seems just as sexist to me. I don't know if that's what you were getting at necessarily, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
KvP:
--- Quote from: Ptommydski on 28 Feb 2011, 14:03 ---Even more confusing when you take into account the fact that I think a lot of people actually give women the benefit of the doubt over men or are a touch more sympathetic towards females in music. Certainly I am guilty of this positive discrimination and it remains to be seen if this causes it to even out somewhat.
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I'm a little confused by this, could you give us some concrete examples?
David_Dovey:
--- Quote from: Elysiana on 28 Feb 2011, 14:28 ---Dovey - Okay, I getcha! Yes, I was under the assumption that you were saying it was maliciously sexist, but you cleared it up and that makes sense.
A question that crossed my mind that is related to the second half of your post, not because I think you implied it but because I'm curious to hear your opinion - do you think that less-attractive female musicians are seen as more genuine because they aren't "relying" on their looks? This is somewhat related to SWM's post about whether that group would be more popular if they were better-looking. If that's true, would they really have more fans or can you even call them fans at that point?
--- End quote ---
This is a really interesting question! I can't say for sure how I feel about it, but my gut reaction is that, no, unfortunately this bias only works in the negative, and that there's no positive flipside whereby unattractive female (or male, I guess) performers get a credibility boost based on their unattractiveness. The closest I can come to an example of this is Devin Townsend, who goes out of his way to point out, and often exaggerate his ugliness as part of his often self-deprecating humour. Heck, I don't even consider Devy to be that ugly anyway since he cut the skullet off.
Oh actually; how about this? Beth Ditto, who is aggressive and confrontational about her obesity, and lauded for it by some. I wouldn't say it's universally positive, but I definitely think a big part of why she is a recognisable identity is because she is overweight and very open about her acceptance of it.
I guess the way to turn biases against unattractive traits is to play them up? But I wouldn't say someone that is "passively" unattractive, if you will, would necessary see any possible benefit from it, even in something as ethereal and amorphous as "credibility".
pwhodges:
I really want to make a biting comment about music being totally independent of looks, and whatever is affected by looks being mere entertainment, but it's bedtime, and I'm tired and wouldn't get it right. So please work out what I would have said, and take it as read, OK?
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