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[cabbagehut]

I think the problem is she isn't giving herself enough credit. No she's not a knockout SI model, but she's also not the hideous sideshow attraction she sees herself as. A lot of it probably came from the teasing she received because of her behavior and interests in her school years (you don't get a frog down the back of your shirt for no reason), and was exasperated by being a recluse in college. It's very difficult to break out of that "I'm a hideous idiot nobody actually likes me" mindset.

Of course, being surrounded by other women so skinny they could hide behind a fence post doesn't help much either. She doesn't seem to think there is any difference between "full-figured" and "moo".

Yeah, that's a good way of describing it.  Marigold isn't exactly socially astute, and I can see her putting a lot of pressure on herself to be "perfect" and outright rejecting anything less.  She can't be a model, so therefore she's a troll.  That's sort of her personality, though - she's very much "all or nothing".

I am a smart person, a compassionate person, I am caring and forgiving and possess a decent, if quirky, sense of humor.  I am also ugly. No matter how I change myself with makeup or clothing to fit other people's perceptions, I am still ugly.  Because of this, no guy has ever or will ever consider me a candidate for anything resembling romance or a relationship.  I can get laid, sure; but that is not relevant to the point.  I am ugly, and no one, NO ONE, ever looks beyond the surface to the inner self, or any of that other crap that Hollywood and idealistic idiots like to sell - people fall in love with pretty people, period.
...
For me, friendship will have to suffice... and to be honest, it's in no way an inadequate substitute; many if not most of my friendships are far more intimate than a whole lot of the relationships and marriages I've witnessed will ever be.

And cannoli, I feel you.  I don't think it's impossible for "ugly" people to have lovers as well as friends, but it is a whoooole fuckload harder.  Yeah, there's always an option of sex.  But the intimacy and tenderness of a relationship is just... it's different.  And I, too, cling to friendships and tend to develop them a whole lot deeper than maybe I should.  I could dress myself up, but I'm afraid of the failure.  I know I'm not terrible attractive, and my experiences reflect that.  I don't need to try and feel worse.

I am not a romantic, really.  Love tends to make me sort of sad, because I have a lot of personality issues sitting on top of a below-par physique (it's not a weight issue, so I don't know how to work at it), and I honestly don't think anyone's willing to put a lifetime to that.  At least, not someone who isn't doing it because they're "settling" or "can't do better", and I'm not such a trainwreck that I'm okay with THAT.

Also, people are massively judgmental if you have a little (or a lot) of extra weight.  Marigold is presented as a somewhat chubby girl (whether or not this is her perception only or an actual characteristic, I'm not sure, but the art style suggests she's partially right).  When somewhat chubby girls wear sexy clothing, they can pretty much expect to hear a lot of vitriol.  It's easy for Dora or Hannelore to suggest she just dress more revealingly - both of them are quite slender, and probably don't have to endure as much of the fat-girl jokes.  While Dora had a weight problem before, IIRC, she might not remember how much that stung.

I admire the thought that Jacques puts into his work.  This is a perspective we see almost exclusively from male nerds (who invariably end up with a modelesque girlfriend), and it's interesting to see it from a woman.  Marigold's echoing a lot of the things that I feel, and it's kind of refreshing to see someone take down the idea that we're all special, beautiful snowflakes in such a succinct way.

[Is it cold in here?]

(If memory serves, it was Raven who had the weight problem).

Interesting point, and an additional piece of evidence in its favor is that the Pugnacious Peach is not among the ones calling for more provocative clothing. She is of the opinion that "there are some things ladies shaped like me should not attempt".

[smilcarek]

(If memory serves, it was Raven who had the weight problem).

562
Raven was chubby in college, according to Dora. Her comment about her "teensy rack" would imply that she was always skinny.

[Shremedy]

Marigold isn't ugly-ugly, and however the characters of the Jephverse perceive her, he can't really *draw* her that way -- IF that's how she really is.  Hollywood-itis dictates that ugly characters (or even just facially flawed) are EVIL, like the scarfaced spychick.  Ugly characters who are well-treated by their associates are just unrecognized evildoers who will inevitably show their real colors at the most dramatic moment, or so the trope goes.  

Whether Marigold's perception is self-delusion or externally-applied cruelty, or even factual, is irrelevant.  She perceives it as real.  Works that way for real people, too.  There are two ways to deal with it; change the perception, or change the physical element.  Perceptions can be more fluid, but they can be more difficult to shift.  Maybe plastic surgery can improve looks, but consider the innumerable instances of beautiful celebrities going too far in pursuit of the imagined ideal, and absolutely ruining their looks!

[IanClark]

Apologies in advance if anyone finds the forcefulness of my words offensive, and no I have not read the thread, and yes Jeph has the absolute right to write his comic any way he wants, but:

I CALL BULLSHIT.

I am a smart person, a compassionate person, I am caring and forgiving and possess a decent, if quirky, sense of humor.  I am also ugly. No matter how I change myself with makeup or clothing to fit other people's perceptions, I am still ugly.  Because of this, no guy has ever or will ever consider me a candidate for anything resembling romance or a relationship.  I can get laid, sure; but that is not relevant to the point.  I am ugly, and no one, NO ONE, ever looks beyond the surface to the inner self, or any of that other crap that Hollywood and idealistic idiots like to sell - people fall in love with pretty people, period.

Fun fact: The first girl I ever really dated actually had fairly extensive facial damage from a car crash when she was a child. And you know how I call myself "QCForums' resident chubby chaser" (or maybe you don't because I'm not that prolific here)? She was less than a hundred pounds. And I cared for her quite a bit, to the point where at the time I thought I was in love with her but I was only 16 so my perception might be a little skewed. And even though she was the exact opposite of everything I've ever considered attractive, I don't think there's a single person who witnessed it who wouldn't have called it a relationship. I'm not even saying beauty is subjective (well, I am, but I'm not saying it now), I'm saying that sometimes people do fall in love with people they don't consider pretty. I don't have an explanation for why this doesn't comply with your experiences, but it does happen, and I know this because I've witnessed it from the inside out.

[shlominus]

no one, NO ONE, ever looks beyond the surface to the inner self, or any of that other crap that Hollywood and idealistic idiots like to sell - people fall in love with pretty people, period.

you are wrong.

[pwhodges]

No, he didn't say that single people are miserable.

What he was meaning, I think, is that many people who think they will not find themselves in a relationship in fact are faced with that possibility at an unexpected time.  As a general principle of life, discounting the possibility of change can lead to lost opportunities - but I will say no more than that, because actually it is never possible to say categorically that one or another of alternative courses of action will lead to greater or lesser happiness in the end.

Certainly, taking one aspect of oneself and treating it as an absolute block to possibilities is likely to be shortsighted.  In the case of perceived ugliness, what even defines that?

[Carl-E]

Thank you, that's exactly my point.  Cannoli did not sound like she was making her statements based on a desire to be alone - I know full well that there are such people, and that's fine. 

For them. 

But when it does happen (and it's more likely to than not, we're an interesting animal that way), I'm concerned that, having decided that it couldn't happen to her because "she's too ugly", she would deprive herself of one of life's greatest adventures. 

And that's just not a good idea.  Regret over a decision like that can grow to eat you alive. 

[IanClark]

I know I'm coming late to this particular party, but...

In this instance, Jeph is dictating that Marigold is actually ugly. Look again at how quickly Dora and Hannelore dropped their arguments (shitty as they were to start with).

No he's not it's just the internal pessimism talking and I can't think of anything to make this effect come to a succinct end.

Some of those are a bit of a stretch, but those are all examples where someone genuinely reveals that they find Marigold attractive.

[Is it cold in here?]

I'd forgotten about Tai. That was sincere attention.

[Odin]

I know I'm coming late to this particular party, but...

Some of those are a bit of a stretch, but those are all examples where someone genuinely reveals that they find Marigold attractive.

Only two or three of those actually have anything to do with Marigold's actual appearance and the rest of them are random strips where they're about interactions with her (that, again, have nothing to do with how attractive/not attractive Marigold is). Did you think nobody would actually look at all of the links you posted?

C- for effort after everyone had already moved to the other thread, though.

[IanClark]

Shall I go through them one by one then? I'll even put a star by my favourite ones.

1. Marigold herself comments on how nice her chest looks in the dress.
2. Marigold tells Momo that other people said she looked pretty.
3. Hannelore's internal naivité causes her to think Marigold's had 12 boyfriends. Again, a bit of a stretch given that it doesn't directly imply she thinks Marigold is physically attractive, but given the often superficial nature of our society, one wouldn't likely expect an ugly person had had 12 boyfriends.
4. "I can't believe you've NEVER had a boyfriend! You're so pretty!" Hannelore's surprise seems genuine, but you'll probably disagree. Again, internal pessimism. Angus seconds Hannelore's notion, although he's probably more than capable of lying about it.
5. Angus backs up his previous sentiment. Again, his genuineness is called into question, but just because he might not be doesn't mean preclude the possibility that he is.
6. Angus is pretty clearly oggling her ass through the camera.
7.* Angus recalls a story about how one of his friends in college was not only convinced she was a porn star, but was actually so obsessed with trying to find her naked on the internet that it caused him to drop out senior year. Clearly, at the very least, that guy found her attractive.
8. Angus is compelled to do something by the "sad Marigold face". Whatever that's worth, I don't know, but I put it in there anyway.
9. "You look cute with bangs."
10. "It was cute. You're actually not a bad dancer."
11.* Dora is apparently literally unable to stop herself from hugging Marigold, literally just because she's so adorable.
12.** Double star for this one, because I literally think I could just go on this one and rest my case. Both Dora and Faye, both of whom not only know Sven intimately (in very different ways) but are both firmly of the opinion that he is shallow and bases his standards for who to fuck entirely on attractiveness, and are both fully aware that he doesn't just fuck anything that moves because he "can afford to be pretty picky about who (he) sleep(s) with", are both instantly concerned that Sven might try to seduce Marigold. In other words, they both think the guy who only seduces attractive women is going to seduce her, meaning they both consider her attractive. Also, note the usually candid Sven doesn't dismiss the idea that he finds her bangable, only the idea that he'd actually do it.
13. Dale appears to be flirting with Marigold until it all goes horribly wrong. Could be any number of other explanations, but you never know.
14. "Hey, you look great!" Okay, that one might not count. Notice he does compare her tits to a flood.
15.* Last panel, without Marigold in the room, everyone is undeniably fawning over her, even if it's mostly just her chest again. Both Tai and Dora agree they'd like to "use those boobs as a pillow" by which I'm pretty sure they're not completely platonically stating that they feel they'd sleep well on her mammary glands. In other words, her physical characteristics make them want to have sex with her. That's literally the dictionary definition of attractive.
16. Tai actually asks Marigold out. Sort of.
17.* Tai is again under the impression that Marigold wants to fuck her. And she's into it.
18. "Don't sell yourself short. I'd TOTALLY make out with you."
19. Even after being rejected (sort of), Tai propositions Marigold twice.

There you go, 19 explanations of 19 strips and how they all pertain to my argument.

C- for effort after everyone had already moved to the other thread, though.

You're a long way from Something Awful if you think anyone's going to confuse vitriol for actual wit or reasoning. I've given you a response and we both know these threads get used weeks after their week, so now it's your turn. For real this time.

[Watched Pot]

i was thinking of making a list like that, but then realized i am too lazy. anyway, you are right about most of those comics pretty explicitly stating that people find marigold at least decently attractive.

[Odin]

Shall I go through them one by one then? I'll even put a star by my favourite ones.

1. Marigold herself comments on how nice her chest looks in the dress.

Everyone in the last panel is drunk at the Fancy Hats bar (or whatever it's called) and having fun as the punchline to Angus being butt-hurt over not being invited and thinking that Marigold would hate being there; Marigold is (drunkenly) amused by what wearing a corset is doing to her boobs, a commentary that really doesn't offer an opinion one way or the other in terms of how attractive she thinks it is (and Dora is just being the usual go-to "LOL I'm obsessed with fucking!" character).

2. Marigold tells Momo that other people said she looked pretty.

Beer goggles will make people say strange things, also, look at her reaction when Momo doesn't give a shit.

3. Hannelore's internal naivité causes her to think Marigold's had 12 boyfriends. Again, a bit of a stretch given that it doesn't directly imply she thinks Marigold is physically attractive, but given the often superficial nature of our society, one wouldn't likely expect an ugly person had had 12 boyfriends.

You admit this one is a stretch so I'm not wasting time pointing out how dumb it is to reasonably expect someone in their mid-to-late 20s to have had fewer than a dozen boyfriends, both in the QC-verse and this one.

4. "I can't believe you've NEVER had a boyfriend! You're so pretty!" Hannelore's surprise seems genuine, but you'll probably disagree. Again, internal pessimism. Angus seconds Hannelore's notion, although he's probably more than capable of lying about it.

Hannelore is being Hannelore, Angus is being a smartass and you get the beginning of a prime example of why Marigold has such self-loathing (the whole arc where she ends up being obsessed with Angus over the tiniest bit of half-ass attention she gets that makes her think a guy is into her).

5. Angus backs up his previous sentiment. Again, his genuineness is called into question, but just because he might not be doesn't mean preclude the possibility that he is.

He uses it as a segue into asking for help finding cosplayer porn?

6. Angus is pretty clearly oggling her ass through the camera.

Pretty sure that if the situation played out the same way between guy room mates you wouldn't be so quick to bring this up like it means Angus thinks the person in question is attractive (but if so,   ).

7.* Angus recalls a story about how one of his friends in college was not only convinced she was a porn star, but was actually so obsessed with trying to find her naked on the internet that it caused him to drop out senior year. Clearly, at the very least, that guy found her attractive.

Yeah, but that story sounds like Angus spinning a yarn of complete bullshit for the sake of messing with Marigold (like half the shit Angus does to get a rise out of people).

8. Angus is compelled to do something by the "sad Marigold face". Whatever that's worth, I don't know, but I put it in there anyway.

This one really is worth very little, what with the Guilt Trip being the motivation and all.

9. "You look cute with bangs."

"Does this mean you're going to wash it more than twice a year now?"

10. "It was cute. You're actually not a bad dancer."

See #7.

11.* Dora is apparently literally unable to stop herself from hugging Marigold, literally just because she's so adorable.

Dora has made "jokes" about wanting to have sex with every single other character in the strip at some point, so her judgment on what is and isn't attractive isn't really the best thing to go by. Also, "adorable" != "attractive", etc.

People think duckbill platypuses are cute, but they don't want to fuck them.

12.** Double star for this one, because I literally think I could just go on this one and rest my case. Both Dora and Faye, both of whom not only know Sven intimately (in very different ways) but are both firmly of the opinion that he is shallow and bases his standards for who to fuck entirely on attractiveness, and are both fully aware that he doesn't just fuck anything that moves because he "can afford to be pretty picky about who (he) sleep(s) with", are both instantly concerned that Sven might try to seduce Marigold. In other words, they both think the guy who only seduces attractive women is going to seduce her, meaning they both consider her attractive. Also, note the usually candid Sven doesn't dismiss the idea that he finds her bangable, only the idea that he'd actually do it.

Sven acts more pissed because he's trying to get his book back and Dora is being a bitch about him walking into her coffee shop than anything else. He doesn't dignify the accusation with a response because the whole thing is beneath him, not because he finds her "bangable". The next strip is him messing with someone that clearly acts like she's afraid of him and getting a laugh out of it ("Boo! Haha!").

13. Dale appears to be flirting with Marigold until it all goes horribly wrong. Could be any number of other explanations, but you never know.

Dale is a WoW nerd that delivers pizzas for a living, but even forgiving that he's being incredibly clumsy if that is what passes for flirting these days.

14. "Hey, you look great!" Okay, that one might not count. Notice he does compare her tits to a flood.

"Oh no! The Levee broke, warn the townsfolk down stream!" isn't very attractive imagery, though.

15.* Last panel, without Marigold in the room, everyone is undeniably fawning over her, even if it's mostly just her chest again. Both Tai and Dora agree they'd like to "use those boobs as a pillow" by which I'm pretty sure they're not completely platonically stating that they feel they'd sleep well on her mammary glands. In other words, her physical characteristics make them want to have sex with her. That's literally the dictionary definition of attractive.

This would be more compelling if they were talking about actually fondling them or something, but "using them for a pillow"? Really? I wasn't aware the QC-verse was so vanilla in it's sexual antics.

16. Tai actually asks Marigold out. Sort of.

I think you lost count or something, because #16 is this one. Tai isn't even in it, but this was the other of the "two" relative ones I mentioned in my earlier post that gives you credit for finding one where people act like she's attractive (in an incredibly shitty way, because they're just focusing on her boobs and not her in any meaningful context).

17.* Tai is again under the impression that Marigold wants to fuck her. And she's into it.
18. "Don't sell yourself short. I'd TOTALLY make out with you."
19. Even after being rejected (sort of), Tai propositions Marigold twice.

The problem with Tai is that she comes across as unbelievably desperate every time the subject of sex comes up. I'll give you these provisionally if you'll agree that Marigold doesn't seem to be too impressed with Tai's opinion of her, given how she continues to act later.

There you go, 19 explanations of 19 strips and how they all pertain to my argument.

Okay, rebuttals and responses above where appropriate.

You're a long way from Something Awful if you think anyone's going to confuse vitriol for actual wit or reasoning. I've given you a response and we both know these threads get used weeks after their week, so now it's your turn. For real this time.

Most of them usually die by about Wednesday of the next week (except the drama bomb ones) with people just finishing up whatever discussions they were having when the next week started, actually, but whatever. Your turn.

[pwhodges]

I'm not wasting time pointing out how dumb it is to reasonably expect someone in their mid-to-late 20s to have had fewer than a dozen boyfriends,

However, the world is full of people you might view as unreasonable, and it is not dumb to realise that.  For instance, I am well past my 20s but have only had two girlfriends in my life (each of whom I married).

[guayec]

You admit this one is a stretch so I'm not wasting time pointing out how dumb it is to reasonably expect someone in their mid-to-late 20s to have had fewer than a dozen boyfriends, both in the QC-verse and this one.

I sincerely have no friends who have had more than 4 boy/girlfriends in their 30-year old-ish lives. And I have a lot of friends.
I myself have had only 3 in my 31 years of life.
Do you get your statistics from Melrose Place?

[Odin]

You admit this one is a stretch so I'm not wasting time pointing out how dumb it is to reasonably expect someone in their mid-to-late 20s to have had fewer than a dozen boyfriends, both in the QC-verse and this one.

I sincerely have no friends who have had more than 4 boy/girlfriends in their 30-year old-ish lives. And I have a lot of friends.
I myself have had only 3 in my 31 years of life.
Do you get your statistics from Melrose Place?

More along the lines of college towns and more urban areas like Atlanta, actually.

[Border Reiver]

I'm not wasting time pointing out how dumb it is to reasonably expect someone in their mid-to-late 20s to have had fewer than a dozen boyfriends,

However, the world is full of people you might view as unreasonable, and it is not dumb to realise that.  For instance, I am well past my 20s but have only had two girlfriends in my life (each of whom I married).

Similar story here - although I only married one.

[Carl-E]

Female friends?  Hundreds over the years.  Well, OK, probably around a hundred or so.  Certainly too many to sit down and count. 

Sex partners?  Just over a score.  (Oooh, look, an unintended pun...)

Actua girlfriends?  Four.  Married the last one at the age of 24. 

Seriously, if you're relationship hopping so much that you have over a dozen by your mid twenties, I'm not sure I'd call them girl/boy friends.  You're not really investing the time. 

Of course, I'm not taking into consideration the early teen "relationships" that last a few weeks or so - junior (and much of senior) high school really shouldn't count! 

[Elysiana]

I'll be 32 in exactly one week.

One high school fling that lasted a month and would never have been serious.
One 4-year college relationship that turned into a 6-year marriage.
After the marriage ended, one FWB (can't count that as a boyfriend), one month-long, and two long-distance 6-monthers, none of which were serious.
Then another long-term relationship that turned into marriage, and so far so good.

All of those started before I was 30 years old.

Most of my friends are about the same - generally between five and ten actual relationships. I grew up in a city of 100,000, went to college near Chicago, and now live in a city of 250,000... though I don't know how that would affect it. My best friend, who grew up and went to college in Atlanta and is arguably much more "progressive" than me sexually, says, "five, and who the hell has more than a dozen serious relationships?"

*shrug*

[jwhouk]

Meanwhile, as to today's strip: I seem to remember an old I Love Lucy episode where the statement, "No one ever believes the story of how you got a black eye" was made a few times over.