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Author Topic: Why does Dora need therapy?  (Read 52644 times)

stoutfiles

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Why does Dora need therapy?
« on: 09 Jun 2011, 15:54 »

Alright, so Dora's had a string of bad relationships.  Is that really therapy-worthy? 

Dora does some things to begin the end of her relationship with Marte... and Faye declares she needs therapy.  For the record, Faye is the only character that really needed therapy to get over her father's death.  Characters like Hanners and Dora, that's just who they are.  Dora needs to be with someone she wants to be with and trusted, else she wouldn't be acting the way she does.

I've not convinced she was happy with Marten; therefore, she created situations in her mind to get mad at him.  Dora's a young, successful business woman.  Marten is a flaky librarian assistant with no ambition to do anything.  Once the initial attraction wore off, I wouldn't put it past Dora to wonder why she was even dating someone who didn't have the same drive as her.  Marten is...well....kind of a loser when you look at the big picture.  So Dora breaks up with him, with hardly any emotion towards it, and now she needs to get help?  I think not.

Dora, you're perfectly fine.  Date someone that's more your type and it'll work out fine.
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Carl-E

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #1 on: 09 Jun 2011, 15:58 »

Whoa.  Are you reading the same comic? 

Dora knows she's messed up and needs help
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stoutfiles

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #2 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:01 »

She needs help because she's not compatible with Marten?  Huh?

Also, she was COMPLETELY RIGHT about Marten still having feelings for Faye, which came out while he was drunk.  Dora was his choice ONLY because Faye wasn't available.  I don't blame her for not wanting to be second place.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #3 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:17 »

Maybe, but Hanners has admitted at one stage that she could barely cope with anything without the therapy. And look at her now.

The problem with Dora was that despite Faye and Marten telling her repeatedly that nothing would ever happen between them, Dora still thought in the back of her mind that Marten wanted Faye, even though that ship sank and became a coral reef by 509.

And again with drunk Marten and Faye? Really?! Seriously?! The guy had just been dumped by his girlfriend, the woman he loved and who had made a commitment to move in with him. His world gets turned upside down and fubar'd beyond belief, oh and not to mention Pintsize bending over with a fleshlight and a drawing of Dora's ass taped over it. Seriously?! Thats the moment you're picking? Marten was in drunken jerkass horndog mode. Where the fuck do people get the idea that alcohol is this all powerful truth serum? Its not. Its literally fucking poison! If it wasn't Faye who turned up, it would have been Hanners, or Raven if she was around. Hell if Steve turned up, Marten might have gone after him.
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Carl-E

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #4 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:21 »

There are people who'd pay to see that...
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TheEvilDog

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #5 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:27 »

True, and all it would cost is a bottle of bourbon.

Or it'll cost Steve a few years in prison after murdering Marten.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #6 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:38 »

Murder? Steve's the one who was willing to have drunken gay makeouts with Marten.

ThEvilDog put it quite aptly, but I just wanted to chip in that another awful reason using the drunken come-on as proof Marten has feelings for Faye is that very situation would never have arisen had Dora not freaked out and broken up with him in the first place! OP, do you understand cause and effect?
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #7 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:38 »

A.) The Marten-secretly-wants-Faye vs. Marten-was-drunk argument isn't going to end anytime soon, I think.
B.) Dora needs help dealing with her doesn't-trust-people issues, which have been directed (with respect to Marten) not only at Faye but at Cosette and Hanners (Hanners!). ("Aren't you glad Marten doesn't have anything like that in HIS closet?" "How would YOU know?")
C.) Gonna head out on a limb here: Dora is rock-certain Marten is unassertive, but feared he'd chase Faye? No no no. She knows she chased Marten (even while Faye was thought to be in the game) and he'd go with whatever was decided. She might have feared she couldn't trust Marten, but who did she trust even less? Faye, arguably her best friend. She fears and mistrusts the most those who are closest to her. Perhaps justifiable, at least from her history according to Sven, but something she needs to work through.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #8 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:40 »

Alright, so Dora's had a string of bad relationships.  Is that really therapy-worthy? 

Do you have experience of bad relationships or therapy?
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TheEvilDog

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #9 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:42 »

Murder? Steve's the one who was willing to have drunken gay makeouts with Marten.

You do realise you linked the exact same comic as me, right?  :laugh:
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stoutfiles

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #10 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:44 »

The problem with Dora was that despite Faye and Marten telling her repeatedly that nothing would ever happen between them, Dora still thought in the back of her mind that Marten wanted Faye, even though that ship sank and became a coral reef by 509.

"And if, sometime in the future, you happen to be ready for a relationship and I happen to be available..." - Marten

Hell, that quote was in the strip you just linked to!  So Marten waited like he always does, and Dora swooped in to get him, but then resented the fact that he liked her friend instead of her at the time.  That's not a story I'd want to tell in the future.  

"Well, your dad liked my friend and was just waiting for her to be single, so I hit on him and he just went with it like he always does with everything!"
-"So, if the other girl had changed her mind he would have picked her over you?"
"Well, yes I suppose so..."
-"Oh. So you were just second best?"
"Um...."

Or even...

-"Why do you like Daddy?"
"Well, he's nice...and um...he supports me..."
-"So why does Daddy stay home everyday?"
"You know your dad, he never really liked any job that involved a lot of work, so he stays home to take care of you after school."
-"He's said today he's going to start up his band again!"
"Oh really...he didn't look for a job today?"
"No, he said he spent the most of the day at the pastry shop.  I think he's going out with Steve tonight, can I go too? He said to ask you for permission!"


Where the fuck do people get the idea that alcohol is this all powerful truth serum?

Because, in most cases, it is an all-powerful truth serum.  You say things you think but normally wouldn't say out loud.  It also will make you hornier than usual.  Combine the two and there are problems.

Rarely ever do we have a character monologue with himself.  We don't know for 100% certainty that Marten had moved on completely just because he said so.  In the past I thought I was over ex's and then, turns out I wasn't.  Now that Faye is in a relationship we won't see Marten do anything but once she becomes single...

Alright, so Dora's had a string of bad relationships.  Is that really therapy-worthy?

Do you have experience of bad relationships or therapy?

No, but I have enough experience to know that almost everyone on Earth would be in therapy if it was determined that failed relationships were needing of it.  I don't advocate depression pills or therapy for a failed relationship for the same reason I don't suggest those things if you fall off a bicycle.  It happens.  It's life.  Get back on and keep trying.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #11 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:48 »

Murder? Steve's the one who was willing to have drunken gay makeouts with Marten.

You do realise you linked the exact same comic as me, right?  :laugh:

I'm sorry! I didn't click your link; I assumed it went to the strip where they get the glowing bourbon cause I hadn't thought of the other one until I started typing my post. I'm not a copier, just an idiot  :-P
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #12 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:50 »

Quote
Do you have experience of bad relationships or therapy?
No, but I have enough experience to know [...]

For perspective, can you give us an indication of how much experience is necessary for certainty?  Because I've not managed that yet.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #13 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:51 »

Because, in most cases, it is an all-powerful truth serum.  You say things you think but normally wouldn't say out loud.  It also will make you hornier than usual.  Combine the two and there are problems.

Bullshit. You don't think clearly when drunk. Yeah, you are more likely to say the things you are thinking, but you are also way more likely to be THINKING THINGS YOU WOULDN'T BE THINKING. I have, enough experience with both myself and other people drinking to know that its not truth that comes out when people are drunk. You are prone to exaggeration, bad jokes, misremembering, and impulsive "thinking with the other head" behavior. I'm not sure how that is "the truth".
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stoutfiles

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #14 on: 09 Jun 2011, 16:56 »

Because, in most cases, it is an all-powerful truth serum.  You say things you think but normally wouldn't say out loud.  It also will make you hornier than usual.  Combine the two and there are problems.

Bullshit. You don't think clearly when drunk. Yeah, you are more likely to say the things you are thinking, but you are also way more likely to be THINKING THINGS YOU WOULDN'T BE THINKING. I have, enough experience with both myself and other people drinking to know that its not truth that comes out when people are drunk. You are prone to exaggeration, bad jokes, misremembering, and impulsive "thinking with the other head" behavior. I'm not sure how that is "the truth".

Right, you say things that will help your chances with another woman.  But angry rants?  Those are always thoughts, repressed or not, that you don't just make up.  Marten clearly felt what he was saying.  He liked her, it didn't workout for him but it worked out for Angus, and he was pissed about it.  That wasn't a made-up feeling.

Quote
Do you have experience of bad relationships or therapy?
No, but I have enough experience to know [...]

For perspective, can you give us an indication of how much experience is necessary for certainty?  Because I've not managed that yet.

When you're in a relationship good enough to where you look back on past relationships, some of which you thought you'd never get over, and realize why it never worked out and how you're better off for not being with them instead.  It's possible without therapy, believe it or not.
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Emperor Norton

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #15 on: 09 Jun 2011, 17:07 »

Because, in most cases, it is an all-powerful truth serum.  You say things you think but normally wouldn't say out loud.  It also will make you hornier than usual.  Combine the two and there are problems.

Bullshit. You don't think clearly when drunk. Yeah, you are more likely to say the things you are thinking, but you are also way more likely to be THINKING THINGS YOU WOULDN'T BE THINKING. I have, enough experience with both myself and other people drinking to know that its not truth that comes out when people are drunk. You are prone to exaggeration, bad jokes, misremembering, and impulsive "thinking with the other head" behavior. I'm not sure how that is "the truth".

Right, you say things that will help your chances with another woman.  But angry rants?  Those are always thoughts, repressed or not, that you don't just make up.  Marten clearly felt what he was saying.  He liked her, it didn't workout for him but it worked out for Angus, and he was pissed about it.  That wasn't a made-up feeling.

Or it could be that he was acting out exactly what Dora was expecting of him. There are so many explanations for why he acted that way and it is really the only evidence of him still having romantic feelings for Faye, and its pretty flimsy considering how emotionally screwed he was at the time on top of being drunk.

The thing is, you are making up reasons for why Dora broke up with Marten, when we have reasons that are STATED in the comic, by HER. You made up these reasons that she felt he was beneath her and such. Nothing like that has ever been mentioned in comic. In fact, everything in comic stated that he was the best boyfriend she had EVER HAD. I just, really don't see your perspective when you can't pull any EVIDENCE of it other than how you feel about the situation. Nothing I can remember implies that SHE felt anything like that. Of course, you could go search for it, and I would listen if you actually showed anything that comes close to implying she thought he wasn't good enough for her, but until that point, this just seems, pointless. Its an argument based on your own vague feelings with no support from what the characters actually say.

The theory that she broke up with him because her insecurities on the other hand, DOES have a shit ton of evidence in the comic.

So Dora breaks up with him, with hardly any emotion towards it, and now she needs to get help?

Wait WHAT?!, I must have missed this when I was reading it before. Man, that sure was a lot of tissues and crying for someone doing something with hardly any emotion.
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2011, 17:10 by Emperor Norton »
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TheEvilDog

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #16 on: 09 Jun 2011, 17:08 »

"If you take steps to get yourself fixed up - I mean therapy, medication, whatever it takes, I'll do my best to treat you as a friend, not as a girlfriend in waiting". That was Marten, doing the decent thing and being a friend, not a guy looking for a quick lay. That wasn't romantic, that was just a guy trying to help his best friend.

So what about those people who find life so crushingly depressing that they feel that they have no choice but to end it all? Some people can "get by" with they're problems, but not everyone has that luxury. You can't talk to family, or to friends, so some people choose to go to a therapist. Thats the essential part of therapy, its just talking to someone who is impartial and offers you a new perspective, listening to your problems and offering you help. Even you have to admit that its good to just talk to someone.

Dora, pre comic, has gone out with guys, who by the accounts of her parents, brother, and her own violition, have abused her, treated her like crap and who could be considered to be worse than the crap on the street. So what clear and rational reason could Dora have for destroying her relationship with the first decent guy she ever had a romantic relationship? You have to admit that despite the fact that Faye and Marten telling her that nothing would ever happen between them, that their friendship had evolved so much since they met that nothing could happen. She admitted that when they broke up that it was her issues of trust that caused her to break them up. You have to admit that is something that someone really needs to work on with a therapist.

As for you "truth serum"? You know what it really is? Its bacteria shit. The breakdown of grains and hops and whatever else you're brewing or distilling is done by bacteria, the results of which are served up in bottles and glasses for consumtion. I've grown up around alcohol, I've worked around it. It doesn't unlock the inner you, or reveals some great truth about you. It kills some brains, slows the reaction time of the body, dehydrates your body and acts as a depressant.
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TheEvilDog

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #17 on: 09 Jun 2011, 17:12 »

I'm sorry! I didn't click your link; I assumed it went to the strip where they get the glowing bourbon cause I hadn't thought of the other one until I started typing my post. I'm not a copier, just an idiot  :-P

Ah, you're alright. With the amount of bourbon they drink in the comic, its pretty easy to get confused.
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #18 on: 09 Jun 2011, 17:13 »

Dora mused long ago about getting therapy to overcome her issues with her brother.

She broke up with the first decent guy she ever dated, a guy she said made her happy. It was not a decision aimed at improving her life, as it might have been if she'd dumped him for someone with ambition. This wasn't a routine met-someone-else or couldn't-stand-him-anymore kind of breakup.

Freud defined mental health as the ability to love and to work. Dora has work down, but has a continuous string of failed relationships, and if she went for abusive guys because she was insecure, then they all failed for the same reason.
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stoutfiles

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #19 on: 09 Jun 2011, 17:19 »



Or it could be that he was acting out exactly what Dora was expecting of him. There are so many explanations for why he acted that way and it is really the only evidence of him still having romantic feelings for Faye, and its pretty flimsy considering how emotionally screwed he was at the time on top of being drunk.

The thing is, you are making up reasons for why Dora broke up with Marten, when we have reasons that are STATED in the comic, by HER. You made up these reasons that she felt he was beneath her and such. Nothing like that has ever been mentioned in comic. In fact, everything in comic stated that he was the best boyfriend she had EVER HAD. I just, really don't see your perspective when you can't pull any EVIDENCE of it other than how you feel about the situation. Nothing I can remember implies that SHE felt anything like that. Of course, you could go search for it, and I would listen if you actually showed anything that comes close to implying she thought he wasn't good enough for her, but until that point, this just seems, pointless. Its an argument based on your own vague feelings with no support from what the characters actually say.

The theory that she broke up with him because her insecurities on the other hand, DOES have a shit ton of evidence in the comic.

Marten actually comes out and says what he's feeling for once and it's supposedly flimsy, but when Marten says what any "Nice Guy" would say when given a situation, it's fact.  That would be interesting to live in a world where no one white lies, ever.

So Dora breaks up with him, with hardly any emotion towards it, and now she needs to get help?

Wait WHAT?!, I must have missed this when I was reading it before. Man, that sure was a lot of tissues and crying for someone doing something with hardly any emotion.

Girls cry when they have to dump someone, it's not fun.  Girls especially cry when someone bear hugs them and tell them they have to get help because something's not right with them.  Faye, who didn't want to be with Marten, is telling Dora she's crazy for not wanting to be with Marten.  What?

Has Dora ever dated an ambitious person or have they all been hipster townies?  Maybe Dora should try dating someone different before she's deemed crazy and needs help?  Maybe a guy that is nice to you isn't always enough in a relationship?
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2011, 17:21 by stoutfiles »
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #20 on: 09 Jun 2011, 17:50 »

Marten actually comes out and says what he's feeling for once and it's supposedly flimsy, but when Marten says what any "Nice Guy" would say when given a situation, it's fact.  That would be interesting to live in a world where no one white lies, ever.

Must be an interesting world where everyone is lying to themselves and everyone else all the time unless they are drunk.

Seriously, in order for your theory to make sense, Marten has to be lying almost every time he opens his mouth. Dora has to be lying about the whole reason things went south, to EVERYONE, including herself considering she did go to therapy over it.

I get it, you don't like Marten. Good for you. But seriously, you are practically making shit up with no support in the comic outside of one very dumb comment that Marten made while emotionally destroyed and so drunk he blacked it out, that could very easily have a dozen other reasons for coming out of his mouth other than "This is what I'm really feeling all the time." Honestly, my take on it is that he was projecting exactly what Dora said she feared, because that seemed to be exactly what she expected. It seemed like spite at Dora. Is this absolutely what happened and what he was thinking? I don't know. But its just as supported as your theory on that one comment.

And outside that one comic, nothing supports your argument that she dumped him because he was unambitious and not good enough for her. At least, nothing I can remember or find. I invite you to find support for this from the characters themselves. If you can I'll reassess, until then, I don't see the point of me continuing this discussion.
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stoutfiles

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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #21 on: 09 Jun 2011, 18:24 »

Seriously, in order for your theory to make sense, Marten has to be lying almost every time he opens his mouth. Dora has to be lying about the whole reason things went south, to EVERYONE, including herself considering she did go to therapy over it.

Could be a repressed emotion, but the fact is he would have rather been with Faye. 

Dora tried to get over it and couldn't.  She went to therapy because Faye said she would beat her up and because she convinced her that something was horribly wrong with her. 

I get it, you don't like Marten. Good for you. But seriously, you are practically making shit up with no support in the comic outside of one very dumb comment that Marten made while emotionally destroyed and so drunk he blacked it out, that could very easily have a dozen other reasons for coming out of his mouth other than "This is what I'm really feeling all the time." Honestly, my take on it is that he was projecting exactly what Dora said she feared, because that seemed to be exactly what she expected. It seemed like spite at Dora. Is this absolutely what happened and what he was thinking? I don't know. But its just as supported as your theory on that one comment.

Marten is nice, which is great, but he doesn't add anything to a relationship.  I don't see someone like Dora being happy with him.  She clearly wasn't.


And outside that one comic, nothing supports your argument that she dumped him because he was unambitious and not good enough for her. At least, nothing I can remember or find. I invite you to find support for this from the characters themselves. If you can I'll reassess, until then, I don't see the point of me continuing this discussion.

It's more about Faye of course, but if Marten was worth keeping she would have.  This wasn't the point anyway, the point is that Dora does not have horrible issues for not being happy with Marten or one of Sven's loser friends.  If you honestly think she needs therapy, then like I've said before, just about everyone on Earth needs therapy.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #22 on: 09 Jun 2011, 18:40 »

I do hope she eventually dates Jim... : )

I think Jim is a nice guy, successful himself. The only potential red flag is if the ex wife shows up, but hopefully that won't happen. : )
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #23 on: 09 Jun 2011, 19:02 »

I also need to point out: LOOK AT THE THINGS HE SAYS during that drunken thing. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1818

"Paving the way for other dudes" "Gettin' you over your bullshit" etc etc. He is showing the baggage that he has over the fact that Faye wouldn't be with him. He is still upset over the fact that he couldn't be with Faye. He is, in effect, saying the things he would say to Faye if he had the courage to. And quite honestly, Faye deserves it! I only wish he could have said it sober. What she did to him was HORRIBLE!

It is not merely a drunken rampage. The things he is saying show that he's not 100 percent over Faye. Dora was absolutely right to end it. If Marten can't get over this, how could he be with Dora?

I hate revisiting that, because it reminds me why I hate Faye so much, but I had to prove a point here.
« Last Edit: 09 Jun 2011, 19:06 by questionablecontentfan »
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #24 on: 09 Jun 2011, 19:19 »

I also need to point out: LOOK AT THE THINGS HE SAYS during that drunken thing. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1818

"Paving the way for other dudes" "Gettin' you over your bullshit" etc etc. He is showing the baggage that he has over the fact that Faye wouldn't be with him. He is still upset over the fact that he couldn't be with Faye. He is, in effect, saying the things he would say to Faye if he had the courage to. And quite honestly, Faye deserves it! I only wish he could have said it sober. What she did to him was HORRIBLE!

It is not merely a drunken rampage. The things he is saying show that he's not 100 percent over Faye. Dora was absolutely right to end it. If Marten can't get over this, how could he be with Dora?

I hate revisiting that, because it reminds me why I hate Faye so much, but I had to prove a point here.

Marten said himself that he has some feelings for Faye, but as he also says, that doesn't mean he wanted to leave Dora for her. Yes, Marten might've still had affection for Faye; you can't just turn feelings off, but the thing is, he gave Dora a chance, and he did fall in love with her. As the comic progressed, Marten's feelings for Dora got stronger and he got over Faye. And keep in mind, Marten gave no indication while he was dating Dora that he was dissatisfied with their relationship, and he was never distant or unresponsive to Dora.

Some people don't seem to understand that no, alcohol isn't necessarily truth serum. It greatly, greatly  exaggerates feelings that are normally not that strong, or, and I think this is the case with Marten, feelings he used  to have; they came out when he was drunk because DORA brought them out. If you didn't notice, Dora is the one who is living in the past where Marten is pining away for Faye when he'd long progressed past that point.

If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #25 on: 09 Jun 2011, 19:25 »

Also, I don't know if you've ever been drunk and depressed, but what you DON'T want is someone to come in and try to play mommy with you. You know the best way to get them to leave you the hell alone? Piss them off or upset them. What he said, was the perfect thing to say to hit her buttons. That is some guilt tripping accusations there.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #26 on: 09 Jun 2011, 19:35 »

In veno veritas. I think there is some truth to that. I wouldn't say alcohol is a perfect truth serum, but I think you may well admit things when drunk you wouldn't admit when your sober. Sort of a trip to your subconscious.

It was pretty obvious to me Dora has some issues that need working out. I'd guess low self-esteem is probably the over-riding one, based on my experiences.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #27 on: 09 Jun 2011, 19:42 »

Ok, I jumped into posting midway through reading to say, some of you may have seen my post in the relationship advice thread a couple months ago. So I know some may have a idea of where I'm coming from on this.

This is coming from someone who has had a severely bad string of relationships. I've been mentally abused, cheated on, lied too, used for money, etc. I am now in a healthy stable relationship, but I put this guy through HELL over the past couple years with my insecurities from my previous relationships. I finally grew a pair and took action, I sought out help. I went through anger management and such. Even though it's been 5 months since then, I have made an improvement. I'm working on this in a relationship yes, but I have a very loving and supportive boyfriend.

After having gone through those situations in my past, my self-esteem was nothing. I acted like I had confidence, but it was exactly what I said, an act. Deep down I felt unwanted, I was paranoid of even family, I was depressed, I even had thoughts of suicide back then. When someone is torn to shreds like I was, or how Dora was in her past, sometimes we do need help in overcoming those obstacles.

I can say I dislike Dora, but in the relationship aspect only, I dislike her because I see myself. And I really hate to come off as one of those creepy obsessed fans, but the break up arc really made me do some extreme self reflection. I knew ultimately, I did not want to take the same route as Dora and Marten. I honestly really did relate to that because at that point, my relationship was heading right down the same exact road.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #28 on: 09 Jun 2011, 20:04 »



If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.

No, because Marten's not like that. He holds stuff in a lot.

Whatever...there are two sides to this and I'm obviously on the side that says that Marten never really got over Faye.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #29 on: 09 Jun 2011, 20:28 »

I can def relate to Marten's speech. I've been through several fizzle out relationships were really all I did was make the guy see how much he missed the girl, or the girl see how much she really loved the guy and they got back together.

It hurts to do everything right and still loose.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #30 on: 09 Jun 2011, 22:05 »

I can agree that Marten has some unresolved feelings for Faye.  He'd never act on them, and "Africa" pretty much torpedoed everything from Faye's side. 

Dora had issues stemming from this, but they were her  issues, related to her  insecurities.  The breakup was probably inevitable (there, I said it). 

But that doesn't mean that Dora doesn't need help getting past her problems.  They are real, and they are sabotaging her happiness, and yes, by Frued's definition (one of the few things he did that's still valid), she is not  mentally healthy. 

Should she date Jim?  No, but that's more because of the business/work thing than the fact that he may (or may not) be good for her.  We don't know him well enough yet, but I know how a business can be ruined by a relationship going south, and that's something neither Jim nor Dora can really afford. 


Of course, what would this comic be without a little drama? 
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #31 on: 09 Jun 2011, 22:26 »

This thread makes me contemplate all the varied meanings of the phrase "bag of hammers."
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #32 on: 09 Jun 2011, 23:38 »

I don't see someone like Dora being happy with him.  She clearly wasn't.

To be truly happy with someone, it is necessary to be properly happy with yourself; this is where therapy can help Dora.

Now, when I asked you what made you so certain about things, my intention was to remind you that there are 7 billion people in the world, and rather a lot of them don't think the same as you.  This isn't exactly a matter of right and wrong, but to point out that one size or viewpoint doesn't fit all; also that even on this forum there are people who appear to have considerably more experience in these matters than you.

I would also point out the limitations of ignoring authorial intention in a comic like this.  It is possible to analyse a book in new ways, and come to conclusions about its characters that are at variance with the author's own views on the matter - indeed, this is rather fashionable these days - but in the case of a serial comic, you have to accept that the next day the author will come back and continue the story according to his own view.  This is not to deny that the characters in the author's own head can surprise him when he is writing, which Jeph says happens to him, but it does mean that the scope for forcing your own view of the world onto his characters is really quite limited.  So I offer Jeph's own view (from the discussion of Marten's drunken faux-pas):
Marten and Faye are best friends. They know each other incredibly well. There is no way Faye, at the point where she is right now, would EVER think Marten's actions were anything more than drunken idiocy.

Also a reminder of his views on this kind of discussion (from the same day):
For what it's worth, I don't care if people overanalyze things. I mean, I think it's stupid, and they're wrong 99% of the time, but that's kind of what forums are FOR. It's the stupid arguing, [...] and the "I [...] will drag this into every single discussion" idiocy that I have a problem with.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #33 on: 10 Jun 2011, 00:18 »

Marten made Dora happy. She said so, in so many words, in strip 1005.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #34 on: 10 Jun 2011, 02:41 »



If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.

No, because Marten's not like that. He holds stuff in a lot.

Whatever...there are two sides to this and I'm obviously on the side that says that Marten never really got over Faye.

Let me rephrase that: If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would have been quietly lashing out at Dora in passive-aggressive ways during their relationship, a road Marten actively tried to steer them away from.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #35 on: 10 Jun 2011, 05:31 »



If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.

No, because Marten's not like that. He holds stuff in a lot.

Whatever...there are two sides to this and I'm obviously on the side that says that Marten never really got over Faye.

Let me rephrase that: If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would have been quietly lashing out at Dora in passive-aggressive ways during their relationship, a road Marten actively tried to steer them away from.


People can be not over someone but just bury those thoughts and make the best of their current situation because they want to move on.  But then, little instances of "I like the other girl better" come up, like when Marten asked them both about Toto.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #36 on: 10 Jun 2011, 06:45 »

Ah, yes, the Toto compatibility test.
Angus asked Faye. Result: positive
Faye asked Marten (not the other way around). Result: we could get along.
Marten asked Dora. Result: F..k off.


Y'knoe, I can never wrap my head around the scansion in that song.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #37 on: 10 Jun 2011, 08:52 »

I actually was a little disappointed when Dora told Marten that Toto sucked and to let her go back to sleep. Strangely, I like the song "Africa" best too...but I am aware that some people would just say "Fuck off, Toto sucks."
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #38 on: 10 Jun 2011, 09:03 »

I feel like people are trying to use Marten's ACTUAL feelings for Faye to determine whether or not Dora's crazy paranoid. But the fact that it's debatable surely means that a completely mentally healthy person might feel insecure in that situation?

This is 100% me projecting onto the characters, but just to give another idea:
In an emotional sense, I would consider Faye an "ex". When he and Dora started dating, they both TOLD her nothing would happen, but I don't think we ever saw Marten take action to show Dora he meant it. Not that someone should constantly try to prove their love, but, like, moving out of the apartment if it was possible or something. His passive personality may have indicated to her that he doesn't take control of his life and so might just 'let something happen'. Even if they never acted on it, I wouldn't stay in a situation where I had a nagging anxiety about being second best. Sometimes healthy people get those.

Also, in the break-up comic which has been linked to, she says she's not going to get over that feeling, not that the feeling is completely unfounded. I think almost anyone could benefit from a visit to a therapist, but I disagree with Marten being THE ONLY GOOD THING EVER AND SHE HAD TO RUIN IT. Her coffeeshop is great for her and so are her friendships (unless someone can link to when she tries to sabotage a friendship?). It's quite possible that he really did rub her the wrong way, and maybe her issues didn't exactly help.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #39 on: 10 Jun 2011, 09:10 »

Another comic where Marten is, of clear non-drunk mind this time, speaking to himself so has no reason to lie about his feelings: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1891
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #40 on: 10 Jun 2011, 11:12 »

Another comic where Marten is, of clear non-drunk mind this time, speaking to himself so has no reason to lie about his feelings: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1891

Man, did I wait for someone to link that comic while reading this discussion. It really makes it clear what Marten feels about Faye.

</sidetrack>

As for Dora needing therapy - we don't really know just how bad her previous relationships were, we just have some hints that they were really, really bad. And we know that that gives her trust issues. Is this a problem? Yes it is, considering she didn't make much progress despite being well aware it threatened her relationship with Marten, which in itself was helpful for her - she did make some progress. Okay, she's got a problem. Does she need a therapist? Yes she does, but does that mean everyone in the same situation would? No.

Someone, like myself for example, could be able to work through it with help from family or close friends. But that needs a lot of effort from both parties. And when the problem involves very close people, that needs an unusual amount of trust and discretion. I happen to have such relations with my father and one of my two brothers.

In Dora's case, Faye and Sven are both too closely involved in the problem, Raven doesn't seem close enough to her and her parents doesn't seem sensible enough. She needs an outside voice, and one educated in the matters doesn't exactly hurt.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #41 on: 10 Jun 2011, 11:14 »

Thank you for linking to that! That further proves the point that Marten still feels something, that Faye is an emotional "ex."

Actually, before I knew the backstory and just read that comic, I thought Marten and Faye were actual exes!
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #42 on: 10 Jun 2011, 12:56 »

Yes, Marten literally says that Dora is Plan B.  He likes Plan B...but she's Plan B.  Would you be ok with being Plan B?
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #43 on: 10 Jun 2011, 13:02 »

To be fair, he never says "plan B". Faye is A because A happened first. Dora is B because B happened second. I don't see anything else in that statement.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #44 on: 10 Jun 2011, 13:04 »

Thank you for linking to that! That further proves the point that Marten still feels something, that Faye is an emotional "ex."

Actually, before I knew the backstory and just read that comic, I thought Marten and Faye were actual exes!

Well, it proves that he feels something, but more importantly it proves that this something is not a problem, as you suggest. I don't think any human could be feeling "nothing" about anyone they've had any kind of relationship with. That is not human.

Yes, Marten literally says that Dora is Plan B.  He likes Plan B...but she's Plan B.  Would you be ok with being Plan B?

Plans aren't stationary. Dora soon became plan A. They were attracted to each other long before they hooked up, Marten only waited for Faye to open up about her feelings first. He has always cared about others feelings first. Additionally, he doesn't really make plans, does he?

Have you read all the way from the beginning? Faye and Dora popped up in Marten's life in the same week, and that is more than two years back. The relationship between Marten and Dora lasted roughly twice as long as the non-relationship between Faye and Marten.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #45 on: 10 Jun 2011, 14:09 »


Plans aren't stationary. Dora soon became plan A. They were attracted to each other long before they hooked up, Marten only waited for Faye to open up about her feelings first. He has always cared about others feelings first. Additionally, he doesn't really make plans, does he?

Plan B does not become Plan A because Plan A failed.  It's still Plan B.  At that moment, Dora was second best.  Yes, he ended up loving Dora (somewhat debatable, he made hardly any effort to try and get her back, and he moved out here chasing a girl so you know he's capable of doing so) but it doesn't change the fact that Dora was with Marten only because Faye said no.

Quote
Have you read all the way from the beginning? Faye and Dora popped up in Marten's life in the same week, and that is more than two years back. The relationship between Marten and Dora lasted roughly twice as long as the non-relationship between Faye and Marten.

Marten has liked Faye since comic 6.  6!

Another comic where Marten is, of clear non-drunk mind this time, speaking to himself so has no reason to lie about his feelings: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1891

If he's fine with it, why would he need to monologue about it out loud?  I would agree that at this point he's not worrying about it too much as he's very interested in Padma.  Doesn't mean he won't wish he was wish Faye sometime in the future.


<mod: fixed quote bracket for easier reading>
« Last Edit: 11 Jun 2011, 00:16 by pwhodges »
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #46 on: 10 Jun 2011, 14:32 »

"A" and "B" are not necessarily judgemental; they are simply two alternatives, and the fact that one came before the other has no effect on their value.  You are insisting on interpreting one part of the text to suit your desired outcome, even though that directly contradicts another part of the same text; but however hard you try, that does not make it so.

I don't care if people overanalyze things. I mean, I think it's stupid, and they're wrong 99% of the time, but that's kind of what forums are FOR.

It may be what the forums are for, in the sense that he can't stop people doing it; but please try to be sensible.  I wouldn't want you or other people to get worked up about it, would I, because that's when bad things start to happen - and then I might have to get decisive, like Marten in that same strip!
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #47 on: 10 Jun 2011, 14:49 »

OK, finally found it, thanks to jwhouk's strip database. 1357 is the strip in which Dora thinks about engaging therapy.

Quote from: Marten from strip 447
Dora's a great girl, but I can't just switch my affection from one person to another like that. I need to see this Faye thing through to the end, whatever that end turns out to be.
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #48 on: 10 Jun 2011, 15:12 »

I wouldn't want you or other people to get worked up about it, would I, because that's when bad things start to happen - and then I might have to get decisive, like Marten in that same strip!
You wouldn't like him when he's... decisive :mrgreen: (Okay okay, that doesn't really look like the Hulk)
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Re: Why does Dora need therapy?
« Reply #49 on: 10 Jun 2011, 15:47 »



If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would be having the angry rants while he was sober, not drunk. And he certainly would've had a MUCH bigger problem when Faye slept with Sven.

No, because Marten's not like that. He holds stuff in a lot.

Whatever...there are two sides to this and I'm obviously on the side that says that Marten never really got over Faye.

Let me rephrase that: If Marten really wasn't over Faye, he would have been quietly lashing out at Dora in passive-aggressive ways during their relationship, a road Marten actively tried to steer them away from.


People can be not over someone but just bury those thoughts and make the best of their current situation because they want to move on.  But then, little instances of "I like the other girl better" come up, like when Marten asked them both about Toto.

Are you even reading the same strip? Faye asked Marten about Toto, not the other way around. Marten only asked Dora about it.

Yes, Marten literally says that Dora is Plan B.  He likes Plan B...but she's Plan B.  Would you be ok with being Plan B?

Well as has been mentioned, Marten never said referred to them as "plans," he was just using the letters as differentiators. But if you want to get technical, Dora's more like F and Faye is E. I hope you people aren't as picky as soutflies (or Dora) is about being "B," but that's kinda something you have to deal with when you date anyone who has dated someone else before you. Most people have more than one romantic relationship in their lives; getting pissy about not being first is kinda immature. Marten had at least four other girlfriends before Faye or Dora came along; saying it's wrong for Marten to go for Dora after getting rejected by Faye would be like saying a guy can't date anyone after his first girlfriend.
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