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English is weird
Cornelius:
--- Quote from: Case on 11 Sep 2017, 09:26 ---
--- Quote from: Cornelius on 11 Sep 2017, 07:46 ---Please do note that in effect Dutch is, in this case meant to mean the language of the entirety of the Low Countries, rather than what is now the Netherlands.
--- End quote ---
Ok, so ... how do you guys want your language(s) to be referred to? I've always thought that referring to Flemish as simply Dutch was rude to Flemish Belgians? (The fact that the Netherlands have already claimed dibs on 'nether lands' doesn't make it less confusing, I guess ... :wink:)
And I guess that the Frisians might have an opinion on Dutch being the language of 'the lower countries' (whelp, they also have an opinion about being German ...). :laugh:
--- Quote from: Cornelius on 11 Sep 2017, 07:46 ---I guess that about makes it clear what side the Moerdijk I'm from. :roll:
--- End quote ---
Apologies for my ignorance, but ... not so much? German wiki about the municipality Moerdijk says that 'boven Moerdijk' means protestant Netherlands, whereas 'beneden Moerdijk' means catholic Netherlands (Brabant, Limburg). But ... both are in the Netherlands, not in Belgium?
--- End quote ---
Well, it's also the linguistic division between Northern Dutch ("Dutch" Dutch) and Southern Dutch (Flemish, Limburgs, Zeeuws, Brabants). The difference between the two does not lie along national borders - not since 1843, at any rate.
Interestingly, the Limburg dialect has been recognised as a separate language in the Netherlands as well - which gives some subsidies from the EU - but not in Belgium. Belgium has anchored the three national languages - Dutch, French, and German - in law, whereas the Netherlands did not anchor their official language in law. Which makes things somewhat easier, recognising Friesian and Limburgian as separate languages. I admit, I forgot to mention the Friesians, a grievous oversight, for which I do apologise.
On the whole, we're alright calling it Dutch - we make the difference between Flemish and Hollands, which doesn't sit well with most of the Dutch. There's also the difference between the official, standardised language, and what is popularly spoken. If we take it to extremes, Flemish is only spoken in our two westernmost provinces, the north of France, and the south of Zeeland. I may have made it a bit more serious than I meant - yesterday was a long day.
What we call our countries has always been intertwined, really. For instance, this is the Leo Belgicus, a map of the Netherlands. (click to show/hide) Not to mention that the Germans claimed dibs on Deutsch - which shares the root for Dutch: theodisc - of the people. There was Diets, but that has been coopted by a certain cause in the '30s.
--- Quote from: Morituri on 11 Sep 2017, 09:51 ---You wouldn't guess that "mercy" and "mercenary" are related, but they are.
The link, of course is 'Mercari' or money. (Latin? Italian?) A down-and-out on the corner asks for money (mercy) and an itenerant soldier (mercenary) fights for money.
But one should not expect mercy from a mercenary. That's just not how it works.
--- End quote ---
You're looking for Merces - Reward. It's latin.
JoeCovenant:
--- Quote from: Morituri on 11 Sep 2017, 09:51 ---
But one should not expect mercy from a mercenary. That's just not how it works.
--- End quote ---
Depends how much you pay 'em! :)
Case:
--- Quote from: JoeCovenant on 12 Sep 2017, 02:07 ---
--- Quote from: Morituri on 11 Sep 2017, 09:51 ---
But one should not expect mercy from a mercenary. That's just not how it works.
--- End quote ---
Depends how much you pay 'em! :)
--- End quote ---
Whereas you're shit out of luck trying to buy mercy from a soldier because they're already bought & sold ... :-D
(No srsly, that's the meaning of the etymological root soldarius - 'someone having pay')
--- Quote from: Cornelius on 12 Sep 2017, 02:06 ---Not to mention that the Germans claimed dibs on Deutsch - which shares the root for Dutch: theodisc - of the people.
--- End quote ---
:parrot:
It also means 'speaking the language of the people', which is a concept I rather like, because it allows for integration by cultural appropriation (not to mention that it's pretty much a negation of the old 'blood & soil' definition of German ethnicity).
Hey! That's a good argument for our immigration/integration debate "Our ancient ancestors defined 'German' by language proficiency - back to the roots, baby!" :-D
Case:
--- Quote from: Akima on 10 Sep 2017, 05:43 ---My brain has problems with Flemish. When I watch cycling videos with Flemish commentary, it tricks the English-language part of my brain into thinking that of it ought to be able to understand it, but of course it can't. It feels like... my needle is skipping on their record? Like the meaning is on "the tip of my tongue" (well, ear really), and just out of reach. I don't have this problem listening to German or Spanish or other languages I do not know.
--- End quote ---
Well, they are close relatives - and it's really German that is the oddball, not Dutch. Found a good explanation of the 'High-German consonant shift(s)' (there were three) that successively set German pronunciation apart from the other west-Germanic languages (e.g. English, Dutch, Frisian etc.). So yes, they all have a common root (west-Germanic) and standard German is kind of the outlier wrt. pronunciation. Not surprising that Dutch would sound more familiar to an English speaker.
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3IImGiiY1Q
English vocabulary is so different to the others because of the strong Latin & French influences - it's almost equal parts Germanic, French and Latin (and small change). There's even an ('artificial') 'Anglish' version (Germanic English w/o Romance loanwords) that comes much closer to how words are formed in German (and I guess many other west-Germanic languages, too).
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws
P.S.: Does anybody else think that Frisian is 'basically Dutch'?
P.P.S. For non-Europeans: The high/low distinction is not a value-judgement, but refers to elevation above mean sea level or upstream/downstream (of the Rhine) - which is roughly synonymous with latitude - the 'low' dialects were spoken in the northern/northwestern regions closer to the coast, the 'high' ones in the southern regions closer to the Alps (e.g Bavaria). Very, very loosely related to what the Romans called 'Germania inferior/superior'.
Cornelius:
That does explain it.
As for Frisian, it does sound similar, and some of it you can understand - but some of it is fairly unintelligible.
Though, to be honest, the main argument for it being a language on its own, is a long written tradition, and independent standardisation. That's where Flemish, for instance, differs. The main standardisation of Dutch happened with the translation of the Statenbijbel, which was done by a committee that sought expressly to balance the different variants to have a translation that's accessible to all. The standardisation of Flemish - such as it is - only got off in the nineteenth century, notably with Guido Gezelle as a fierce proponent. As French, at the time, was the main language of the top layers of society, however, it was a doomed effort. Hence, no recognition as a language in its own right.
I've often heard it said that a language is just a dialect with an army. There's some truth in there.
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