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The strip.

66 (13.1%)

Jeph's health.

110 (21.9%)

MY health.

60 (11.9%)

YOUR health.

31 (6.2%)

Family and friends (though not necessarily in that order).

86 (17.1%)

This forum.

20 (4%)

Turkey and all the trimmings.

13 (2.6%)

The interwebs.

47 (9.3%)

Something else.

24 (4.8%)

Spathe Ham!

13 (2.6%)

...must... read... ALL the posts...

33 (6.6%)

Total Members Voted: 173

[reicreature]

I'm really happy about this development and how it's being handled thus far. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes and think it will be a great education for people to learn how to be inclusive and non-offending.

This is also a pretty great guideline when it comes to discussing how someone identifies themselves:

http://plunderpuss.net/wordpress/a-rather-important-instructional-comic/

[akronnick]

Looks like Marten is taking a page out of Dr. Sheldon Cooper, PhD.'s manual for social interaction.

It really is a non-optional social convention.

[Soulsynger]

"Hey, Paul, if you could have any superpower of any webcomic's character, which would you choose?"
"I guess Marten's ability to instantaneously sober up between two strips. That guy must get all the chicks."

... just noticed. Of course, on some people coffee CAN have a VERY sobering effect.

[ ... ] They must surely have a policy on the matter. I wonder if I could ask?

I think you should. Asking is / should be free and it would be immensely educational. °O

[Border Reiver]

Really happy for two things:

A.  The discussion here, while more active than normal, is respectful to each other while still being interesting; and
B.  Marten realizes this is a coffee discussion item, vice need other drinks to try and process. 

Well done. 

And this little revelation certainly clarifies some of Claire's comments earlier in the strip.  I await seeing how some of the others will handle it.

[Promethean Sky]

Thanks Jeph for clearing up the details. One thing I've learned from being around Trans people is that it can mean a whole bunch of different things depending on who's using the term.

I think there are far more Trans people out there than most people realize. Or maybe I just happen to keep crossing paths with them.

[techkid]

Really happy for two things:

A.  The discussion here, while more active than normal, is respectful to each other while still being interesting; and
B.  Marten realizes this is a coffee discussion item, vice need other drinks to try and process. 

Well done. 

And this little revelation certainly clarifies some of Claire's comments earlier in the strip.  I await seeing how some of the others will handle it.

Well, it's gotten to the point where people aren't just shooting out questions/speculation about Claire's junk, and getting into the serious territory where these things should end up. It's also great to see trans* people signing up and giving their accounts and insights (and the bajillion links to various trans* information sites also clarified a lot). But it's like someone posted earlier in the thread (I just finished reading it, I am NOT trawling back through to find it, but I WILL thank you anyway for it), and what I've always thought: people just want to be treated as people.

[percivaltercy]

Hi all!

Long time lurker, long time willing to post, and this thread finally made me get my act together.
English is not my mother language, and I hope that it won't show too badly.
I am finally posting here... Not because I identify in any way with any particular character - or their adventures - but because I somehow identify myself with a bit of each one of them, and with many of the forum contributors, in their views.
I just think that this thread is AWESOME, and it tells a lot about you guys. Needless to say, mostly goooood.
I had a bit of an internal debate with regards to whether I should post this in the "Hi, I'm new" thread instead, but finally made up my mind to say something here.
The comic, in many ways, is dealing with Content that might be considered by some people as Questionable, but the wonderful truth is, what I see here is a lot of people who are very much willing to break barriers and show that common acceptance of human beings - no matter what their particular conditions are - is something worth looking forward too. Even in situations where debate arises. In spite of the <irony>occasional</irony> over-analysis. 
Congratulations to you all.

[Sidhekin]

Comics: Good.

Forum: Train crash.

I think I'll take a break from the forum.  No way I'm going to read all that; too much frustration and hostility; too much noise.  Sorry if I thereby also miss out on the good discussion in between.

See you after the storm!

[Throg]

OK. Just one tiny and utterly tangential observation...but today's strip about Claire really does make me think the QCverse is a post-scarcity world.

"I started transitioning my first year in college"? I had a friend back in college who didn't 'transition' until well after college, and after he was making scads of money on his own. Transitioning is EXPENSIVE. All the more so because it's a wholly elective (duh!) procedure.

So either this is a post-scarcity, everybody's-more-or-less-taken-care-of world, or Claire's family must be rather well-off. Although I guess one could've guessed that because of the artifical prosthetic hand for a firecracker accident.

[Harlequin]

Jeph's starting to toe the line with "fucking this up."

I would never give permission for someone else to talk about my gender status to anyone else. That's just asking for trouble.

[versidue]

Jeph's starting to toe the line with "fucking this up."

I would never give permission for someone else to talk about my gender status to anyone else. That's just asking for trouble.

Lots of people do, though. People have even mentioned being open in a manner similar to Claire's in this very thread.

[Welu]

I'm finding the strips and the discussion on this comic very interesting. Although I am wondering where everyone else in the party has gone.

[pwhodges]

Although I am wondering where everyone else in the party has gone.

We've got Claire and Marten on stage; we know that Steve's in bed, Emily has gone floppy (I'm picturing on the sofa or a rug), and Faye and Angus are smooching on the jetty. 

That leaves Tai and Dora (smooching somewhere else?), Marigold (hiding, perhaps?), Cosette (cuddling Steve?)

[Tormuse]

I'm finding the strips and the discussion on this comic very interesting. Although I am wondering where everyone else in the party has gone.

Let's see...  Faye and Angus are making out, possibly making slurping sounds, on the dock.  Steve passed out in bed.  Emily passed out...  somewhere unspecified.  That leaves Hanners, Marigold, Gabby, Cosette, Clinton, Dora, and Tai...

You're right!  That's a lot of people unaccounted for!     (How big is the cabin, anyway?)

EDIT:  Bleah, ninja'd, whatever.

[Oglokoog]

too much frustration and hostility

There's hostility here? I haven't seen any.

[Skaltura]

1. Claire told Marten under what specific circumstances he can tell people (if they specifically ask about it).

2. Marten is decidedly not the person to blabber about (other people's) personal stuff to strangers, and since the people he might potentially tell are also considered friends of Claire as part of the big Marten Friendship Adoption Circle (MFAC) this is even less likely.

3. The conversation between those two is not over yet.

Gotta run to class, stay frosty

[Required_Field]

I was kinda hoping the comic would steer into Sci-Fi what with previous strips delving into the A.I in the universe, instead of sexuality of the characters.  Not that it should be an attack on the lgbt community, but colleges like SMIF shoould have been more conservative in their enrollment of their all female students, or else just make it an open campus.                     

[pwhodges]

Should on what grounds, other than prejudice?  Are you arguing for a karyotype to be examined as part of the selection process?

[Carl-E]

...instead of sexuality of the characters. 

As has been stated, being a trans person is not actually about sexuality, it's about gender. 

...shoould have been more conservative in their enrollment of their all female students, or else just make it an open campus.                   

  

More conservative?  As in openly barring certain types of women?  How would you define that?  Would you have hopeful students subjected to potentially humiliating DNA tests? 



I think you need to read a little more of this thread and think about that idea again. 


Edit:  Ninja'd. 

[jwhouk]

Compared to the other major plot turn threads, this one is mild by comparison.

[hakko504]

I've just started reading Terry Pratchett's Equal Rites...<SNIP>

<SNIP>

Another Pratchett lover here: What you describe above is correct as far as I can remember Equal Rites. I just wanted to add that a sort follow up on what happened to Esk once she was grown up, appeared in 'I Shall Wear Midnight'. This is the latest in the Discworld Young Adult books, and may have been overlooked by some casual Discworld readers.

Anyway, back OnTopic:
I think Claire is quite brave to tell Marten something like this so early in their friendship, and I applaud Marten for his reaction. Now I'll just sit back and watch how the rest of the gang will react.

[idontunderstand]

Regarding Claire telling Marten that it's okay to tell other people that she's trans*, I really just think she believes Marten is trustworthy enough to judge who he should or shouldn't tell. I guess Claire doesn't want him to feel weird about carrying around a kind of "secret" that he can't even tell his closest friends, a circle of friends she could potentially be part of. Which is extremely brave of course..

[Ph2]

Marten is probably doing the worst possible thing in this situation. Who knows how Claire's taste buds will react in horror when she tastes Marten's coffee of doom.

[El_Flesh]

'She' told him to be honest. So he should be honest; it's not a secret, but it's not something to blare out to everyone. Simple enough instructions. If Claire didn't want some people to know, Claire should have said nothing to anyone.

I think this is a cool thing to do with a comic. Everyone can be offended. Life is an exercise in often being offended. We learn to act less offensive with education, and that's what this particular storyline will do. I've got to admit, I have alot to learn about trans people, and it's my hope that I'll react much better if I ever meet one thanks to this storyline.

[miados]

well it is nice how he revealed claire to be a transgender person in my opinion at least. there are so many ways that could have happened that were bad. the first person like that, that i know is like that, i didn't even feel the hint that she was like that.

[HueItzCoatl]

Just finished reading the last comic and I have to say that I didn't see that one coming. I don't think I've ever had the pleasure of knowing a Trans comic character. I'm curious to see how the whole things plays out.

I do have to say that unlike Marten, I would have totally freaked the fuck out and asked her if I could see her junk....then again I'm always up for seeing some junk!

[Carl-E]

If Claire started transitioning in college, it wasn't something she was hiding, so I tend to think her attitude is to be open about it, if people ask.  And that's what she's told Marten.  Sometimes that stance can lead to problems, but she's a brave one despite her nervous, timid appearance. 

Or maybe she's nervous and timid because she's been open about it...

[ChaosWolf]

I mean, seriously, the existence of a race of sentient beings that can freely swap between bodies whenever they feel like it has got to be annoying as hell for a struggling transperson in QC-verse.

Good point...

[bhtooefr]

I'll note that the QC verse isn't post-scarcity - there are homeless people in it.

But, QC is set in the US, so free or low-cost non-emergency healthcare of any sort is far from guaranteed (this is a country where people wait until they're about to die to get any treatment for cancer, because they can't afford to pay for any early treatment, and can't afford the time off work to go in for treatment), and the odds of it covering any sort of treatment for gender dysphoria other than counseling are slim.

Granted, QC is also set in Massachusetts, which has had an individual mandate healthcare system for a while, but it may be cheaper to pay the fine (if you're in good health, and sometimes even if you're in poor health, it's cheaper to pay the fine under PPACA, which is the US individual mandate system), and any cheap plan will be highly unlikely to even cover mental health or elective treatment of any sort. The college would likely offer counseling for free, as part of tuition, but that would just be sitting and talking with a therapist, not any medications - a student would be referred to a doctor of some sort for that.

So, I'd guess that Claire's family is financially stable, but QC is set in a society that does experience scarcity. (Further evidence is that Clinton appears to have been an early adopter of a robotic hand, in a universe where robots are very common, but are still luxury items.)

[Xader]

Jeph's starting to toe the line with "fucking this up."

I would never give permission for someone else to talk about my gender status to anyone else. That's just asking for trouble.

Congratulations. It is now positively confirmed that you and Claire are not the same person.

Guess what? Some people are more comfortable sharing personal things than others.

[Is it cold in here?]

Yet another long-time trans* reader lured out of the shadows of the Internet over this comic!

Mostly wanted to say thanks for the refreshingly mature discussions, and the links!

Also I must warn you of a terrible fate that may befall us all!
Jeph sez: "OCD IS BAD: Nitpicking and/or placing way too much importance on minutiae while missing the big picture is probably Jeph's biggest pet peeve. Not every little detail is Fraught With Meaning." 

Welcome, new person! Good work studying the rules, and particularly finding that one. It is under appreciated.

[Is it cold in here?]

English is not my mother language, and I hope that it won't show too badly.

Welcome, new person!

Plenty of ESL people here: it really doesn't matter.

[Is it cold in here?]

If the reading I've been doing is representative, do I understand right that Marten's behavior is exemplary?

(And that Claire's answer is brave and not to be taken as representative?)

I just hope he doesn't get drunk and tell Pintsize.


Warning - while you were welcoming a new person two new people have joined the discussion. You may wish to review your post

[cesariojpn]

I just hope he doesn't get drunk and tell Pintsize.

Considering what AnthroPc's are capable of, I don't think one drunken binge will give Pintsize ample opportunity to figure it out. Then again, looking at his Twitter, if he can find obscure porn......

(Added a bracket - Method)

[Change]

I think some people are misunderstanding what Claire said, unless I'm wrong.

She gave Marten permission to tell people that she's trans* if they ask about it. Therefore, the person asking would of had to have either suspected something or maybe heard it from someone else who knew Claire in college. She told Marten NOT to talk about it otherwise. I really don't think that Marten lying to someone who explicitly asks will help matters, at all.

[TheEvilDog]

I have no words for how this thread is going.








Before this thread goes nuclear, I'm off to that concrete, reinforced underground bunker I had built after the Dora/Marten Meltdown of '10. All necessary invites have been sent out and the last of the tinned food has been brought in.

[K1dmor]

(Sorry, english is not my first language).
Wow....10 pages for one strip  .

 I got to say, i used to like the comic; but now...  i love it! xD

 Seriously, i really like Claire since her first appearance (don't really know why) and that won't change a bit  .

 Now changing the subject:
 - The lips.
 Marigold doesn't have those either most of the time (I thought it was just when the girls used lipstick, but since Hanners wouldn't use...).
 Example1
 Cute Example2 (except last panel).
 
 - This thread.
 I read slowly all the posts, and all i could thinks was that it remind me this xD (no offense):
 


 Seeya.-

[CompSarge]

- This thread.
 I read slowly all the posts, and all i could thinks was that it remind me this xD (no offense):
image snip

Pretty much the internet in a nutshell, yeah. At least, this part of the internet. Also, AUGH!

[idontunderstand]

It's really not that bad. The first f-word hasn't even been thrown yet.

[Schmorgluck]

Marten is probably doing the worst possible thing in this situation. Who knows how Claire's taste buds will react in horror when she tastes Marten's coffee of doom.

Well spotted. One can only hope he's not the one who prepared it.

Well, there is a debate in France right now about extension of marriage to everybody, including homosexual couples and I must some arguments are quite nauseating. A bishop actually had the gall to say that first, it was gay marriage, and then incest and zoophilia. You can imagine what is being said about trangender people.

I haven't heard much in France about trans* people specifically. There's been a few legal and administrative issues that made it to the news, but I can't say I remember hearing statements about it from the clergy.

About today's comic (as well as yesterday's - took me some time to read all the thread), I think Claire is courageous to speak out like this, and she found the right kind of person to do so. If I were Marten, I'd feel flattered by this manifestation of trust.

Marten has his faults, he's indecisive and sometimes too much of a pushover, but these are pretty much the worst aspects of some of his main qualities: he's non-judgemental and laid-back. It's not really a surprize that Claire decided to trust him in particular.

[Carl-E]

Before this thread goes nuclear, I'm off to that concrete, reinforced underground bunker I had built after the Dora/Marten Meltdown of '10. All necessary invites have been sent out and the last of the tinned food has been brought in.

See you in half an hour.  I'll bring the beer and jerkey. 

[Alkahest]

I just wanted to say that I think it's nice that QC included a trans character, not get into an argument. There. Bye.

[westrim]

I have no words for how this thread is going.

Before this thread goes nuclear, I'm off to that concrete, reinforced underground bunker I had built after the Dora/Marten Meltdown of '10. All necessary invites have been sent out and the last of the tinned food has been brought in.

I'll bring some cookies!

[Method of Madness]

Before this thread goes nuclear, I'm off to that concrete, reinforced underground bunker I had built after the Dora/Marten Meltdown of '10. All necessary invites have been sent out and the last of the tinned food has been brought in.

See you in half an hour.  I'll bring the beer and jerkey. 

I, for one, will go down with the forum. Forumites...it's been an honor.

[Leucelia]

Not super interested in the other discussions. Just logged in to give feedback on the latest events with Claire.

I like that Jeph seems anxious about portraying a positive trans character. That he is worried at all means he's worried enough to do it well.  I must say, I am impressed! He mentioned that he had done research, and it shows already.

For the comic itself, the reaction Marten gave very much lines up with my own reactions in the area I live. It was always either an affirmation of a prior suspicion, or a simple acknowledgement and moving on. This is how I feel it should be; not bizarre or a mystifying revelation, but another facet of a person that you are privileged to know about. The question following, regarding circumstances for disclosure, is likewise a tremendously important thing to be asked when coming out, particularly in a work environment. I remain cautious for the future, of course, but Jeph has already shown he is being meticulous with this, and I approve!

My biggest fear is an obnoxious question in the future regarding bottom surgery. This is easily the most common question I receive, and the most repellent. Especially in a workplace, inquiring about the possible grueling alterations to ones genitals is appalling, but with trans people it seems to be taken as read that you can just ask away. Let me say now that by NO means is it appropriate, ever, unless the person volunteers that information (sole exception for sexual partners). I almost hope that he does cover this issue, if just to relay that message to the world, though I would assume he'd receive significant punishment for the service (see how much anger Dan Savage receives for this or that nitpick).

In any case, I look forward to the future he carves for Claire and how the other characters interpret and deal with that information. What really blows me away is that these characters all have distinct personalities, and will all have to approach the issue in their own ways. That all of that will have to come from one man for this story makes it especially admirable. I'm particularly interested in the discussion of sexuality that may arise, with Claire having been given to heterosexual tendencies. This may mean that she is bisexual, or was homosexual prior to transitioning. In my experience, sexuality has seemed fairly fluid, so perhaps no label at all is necessary.

Thanks, Jeph, for broaching the subject. The more commonplace the phenomena becomes, the less strange it will seem. Having a good image of trans in media is a huge deal that can directly affect the lives of trans people every day.

[pwhodges]

There's some very nice drawing of facial expressions and body-language in this comic too.

And it's when Marten's being depicted in this relaxed mood that he looks at his best, I think.

[K1dmor]

 Can we please discuss the comic/strip/characters in here, and all the subject about trans/laws/MyCountry/etc in Here for example?

 Just to keep some order...

[jwhouk]

Before this thread goes nuclear, I'm off to that concrete, reinforced underground bunker I had built after the Dora/Marten Meltdown of '10. All necessary invites have been sent out and the last of the tinned food has been brought in.

See you in half an hour.  I'll bring the beer and jerkey.

Don't mind me, I'll be the idiot who's going to be rebuilding a new thread to replace this one. 


Ooh, and good idea, K1dmor.

[DSL]

As for trans* people and trans* as a concept as discussed in this forum, I hope to learn by shutting up.
As for the comic -- I'd ask everyone to consider something they might not have considered: It's a story about imperfect people who are trying in the main to get along. Jeph has so far depicted one of the best possible interactions: Claire decided to trust Marten and that trust has been rewarded with non-uptight acceptance and respect. But I think (and I'm going to guess, because Jeph is nothing if not meticulous in his choice of presentation) that we might see, down the line, one of the characters screwing this up; they, being mostly realistic characters, don't always hit the right notes.
It will be interesting to see if Jeph heads in this direction and what it will mean for the characters affected by a screwup -- and if he does this, I'd ask folks to hang on and see where the story goes before jumping on it for presenting the situation as less than ideal across the board. Some of the most lasting impressions (and lessons) come from watching people deal with the consequences of a mistake -- a character's mistake, in this case, being a less-than-respectful reaction to learning Claire's story.

tl;dr: This is a story about people, not a primer for navigating social situations.

[Leucelia]

I agree, DSL. Seeing an imperfect response and the subsequent handling of the matter and lessons involved would probably be more useful. If not that, then the emotional aftermath inflicted. (Marten after being an asshole to Padma).

Proud of Jeph for sticking his neck out like this. He's going to get a lot of hate mail.

EDIT: Whoops! Only glanced at the name and saw Duck beneath it, DSL.