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The explanation of "Aunt" Jane.

4 (10.8%)

An "Erotic Photographer!"

0 (0%)

Lace Panties and a Garter Belt. (I could really use some more material for my upskirt site!)

3 (8.1%)

"Marten, be a good boy and look away." (Yes, mother.)

2 (5.4%)

Does it, um, bother you? What your mother does? (Nah, I'm used to it.)

0 (0%)

It must've been weird growing up.

0 (0%)

It was pretty funny seeing other parents "recognize" her on Career Day...

6 (16.2%)

The Artistic Equivalent of Name Dropping (Charles Stross, Keith GWS, Cassandra Clare, Holly Black)

0 (0%)

Who were all those people? I have NO idea.

5 (13.5%)

A female Officiant, White Tux, a Flower Girl, Maurice comes in on... a WHITE HORSE?

6 (16.2%)

Your noble steed is now grazing on the azaelas.

2 (5.4%)

Henry Reed and Maurice Duplantier.

0 (0%)

Ring exchange, kiss, "I now pronounce you married!"

0 (0%)

Claire: "That's IT?"

9 (24.3%)

Total Members Voted: 35

[jwhouk]

And we kick off yet another week.


Fixed typo in thread title - Method

[Near Lurker]

Drunk makeouts for whom?  Veronica?  Claire?  Marten?

(Do not answer "Claire and Marten."  That would not be "random.")

[MillionDollar Belt Sander]

According to the secret notes...  EVERYONE FUCKS. 

This could get awkward real quick.

[jwhouk]

Drunk makeouts for whom? 

The answer is, "Yes."

[Kixie]

totally psyched for drunken makeouts.

[cesariojpn]

Claire is outed as a trans in a most embarrassing way during the wedding.

[Barmymoo]

"Trans" isn't a noun, you're missing the word "woman" in that sentence. I have said this many, many times before but I don't think Jeph would ever be crass enough to use Claire's gender status as a cheap plot mechanism, and it is just not in Marten's character to thoughtlessly let slip such an important and private aspect of his friend's life.

[Zebediah]

It turns out that Maurice is an old friend of Hannelore's mom and she's invited to the wedding. Beatrice Chatham and Veronica Reed hit it off immediately, and wind up going back to Veronica's room. What follows sets off seismographs up and down the East Coast. Claire blushes.

[Method of Madness]

I don't think Jeph would ever be crass enough to use Claire's gender status as a cheap plot mechanism

He won't. I usually wouldn't say things with such certainty, but considering he changed a comic because he thought it might be interpreted as using her gender status as the punchline, I think it's safe to say he won't.

[jwhouk]

Comic's up!

...

 

[celticgeek]

Aha.  A non-wedding photo session coming up. 

[Method of Madness]

Called it!

[mustang6172]

Prediction:  During the wedding, the officiant will go off on two rants.  The first will be about how marriage is between a man and a woman.  The second will be about why you shouldn't pay the officiant upfront in cash.

[westrim]

Others have said it before, but now I, personally, suddenly understand Marten much better. Imagine that happening all through his life.

Scene: Tween Marten walks in the front door, to see the living dungeon room and his mom in nothing but garters and stiletto boots standing on a guys back and 5 production guys.
"Welp, I'll be upstairs doing homework."
Okay honey, there's lemonade in the fridge if you're thirsty!"

Interesting drink selections. Claire and Marten are having orange juice, the other two are... not.

[Bluesummers]

I find it interesting that Claire is shocked in Panel 4, but not blushing. Oh, poor oblivious Marten, when will you notice? (Never.)

[Soulsynger]

Comic's up!

...

 

Ayup. 

[Carl-E]

Busman's holiday. 

[ZoeB]

I find it interesting that Claire is shocked in Panel 4, but not blushing. Oh, poor oblivious Marten, when will you notice? (Never.)

Panel 4 Claire : I chuckled out loud when I saw her face. Marten's was predictable, cliche'd, but also fitting. Claire's look was hilarious.

AND as a bonus, we got an explanation of the "Aunt" thing.

Note: Marten, being a boy, is told to look away. Claire, being a girl, is not. Except she's been socialised that way until comparatively recently. Talk about being thown in at the deep end...

Perhaps it's fortunate that Hanners had a cold. I think she'd be out of her depth by light-years.

[Method of Madness]

Claire, being a girl, is not.

I think it's less Claire being a girl, and more Claire not being related to her.

[Carl-E]

Not to mention being on the other side of the table.  I'm assuming the photo shoot will all be below-the-belt...

[Akima]

A pro photographer using a phone-camera? Oh well, they sneered at Leicas once.

[Sidhekin]

Phone camera?  Well, I suppose for upskirts, it's a measure of authenticity.

[Soulsynger]

Well that actually is understandable. Makes it easier to label it "amateur" or some such. And phone-cameras today have amazing quality to them anyway.

[de_la_Nae]

Yeah, for a lot of folks a certain amount of 'realness' can be a big turn-on.

Actually that's one of the amusing dilemmas, as I understand it, of flesh-and-blood pornography. Do you script and act and light and shoot everything in the finest detail possible, enticing your customers' imaginations with large amounts of vivid data? Do you rely on tropes to make a shortcut through their brains (and also probably saving you and your crew money and time that you didn't spend on the soundtrack, the scripting, the acting, etc)? Do you make the effort to pass it off as 'real' and 'amateur' to engage a slightly different path in their minds, a slightly more 'attainable' or 'grounded' fantasy? And then of course you have to consider what the state of the market is, because an important part of the sexual mind craves *change*, and if it's flooded with one type or trope too much your customers will get desensitized...

AAAAAh I'm overthinking this. ._.

[Carl-E]

No more so than those who make their living at it...

[pwhodges]

I saw it as her making a note on the phone rather than getting the camera out at the table - but then I'm probably too boring.

[Soulsynger]

Yeah, for a lot of folks a certain amount of 'realness' can be a big turn-on.
[ ... ]
AAAAAh I'm overthinking this. ._.

Yepp... that's basically the two schools of thought in pornography. (at least as far as I have seen/read)
It all depends on the consumer's preferences and taste.


@pwhodges:
With Veronica pulling up her dress and advising Marten to look away? Nope. That shit's happenin' right now.

[pwhodges]

OK, now I see it.  And I guess it's official - I'm too boring for this forum and should resign.

[Sidhekin]

You can do that?  Momentous days ...

[Loki]

The times are mutative, and we are mutants within them. Or something like that.

[cesariojpn]

"Trans" isn't a noun, you're missing the word "woman" in that sentence.

Okay, this is kinda getting on my nerves abit.

I can't say "She-Male" cause it's derogatory/insulting/misogynist/sexist/I used it wrong/whatever.
I can't say "Crossdresser/Trap" cause it's derogatory/insulting/misogynist/sexist/I used it wrong/whatever.
I can't say "Trans/Transexual/Transvestite/TS" cause it's derogatory/insulting/misogynist/sexist/I used it wrong/whatever.
I can't say "Gender Fluid" cause it's derogatory/insulting/misogynist/sexist/I used it wrong/whatever.
I can't even say "Woman/Girl/Madam/Miss/Mrs./Hostess/Mistress/(Insert female pronoun here)" without getting some grief about it!!

Honestly, try and use the "right word," you get grief about it no matter what you do!! Can anyone make up their minds already?

[Barmymoo]

I'm assuming that you weren't around for the extensive and protracted debate about precisely this topic, or you would know that "woman" is absolutely the correct term, unless for some reason it is relevant that the woman you are talking about is transgendered, in which case the term is trans woman, or perhaps transwoman. I would say exactly the same thing if you had said "pass me that blue" instead of "pass me that blue book".

[westrim]

OK, now I see it.  And I guess it's official - I'm too boring for this forum and should resign.

You're never too old for a comic strip about 20 somethings.

Honestly, try and use the "right word," you get grief about it no matter what you do!! Can anyone make up their minds already?

This one suggests the words "one" "it" and "they." Guaranteed to get on every native English speakers nerves without being actually offensive to anyone (except those offended having the same terminology applied to humans as to robots, but who cares about them yet?)

I'm assuming that you weren't around for the extensive and protracted debate about precisely this topic, or you would know that "woman" is absolutely the correct term, unless for some reason it is relevant that the woman you are talking about is transgendered, in which case the term is trans woman, or perhaps transwoman. I would say exactly the same thing if you had said "pass me that blue" instead of "pass me that blue book".

What if it was orange? Expecting everyone to be privy to every discussion or have them at recall is unrealistic, and you could have easily sent him a PM explaining as much instead of making it a public issue. And since I didn't notice that discussion, I'll deliver my opinion that 'trans' is a noun, both in the original Latin and as a colloquial term for any person that has transitioned genders.

[Soulsynger]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I try to avoid that subject whenever I can. Regardless of how interesting I think it is. 

[pwhodges]

Honestly, try and use the "right word," you get grief about it no matter what you do!! Can anyone make up their minds already?

Trans (or trans*) is used as an adjective, not a noun, is all - otherwise you are doing fine, I think.  I would adjust the opposite way from May, by suggesting just "trans" rather than "a trans" in your sentence above.

However, gender and sexual terminology can be difficult to cope with.  I was brought up to call a polite woman a lady - but if I call my wife a lady she gets quite angry.  But we still call the women's toilet "the ladies'" without trouble.  The idea is always to avoid terminology that carries an implication beyond the mere facts - a level of judgement, if you like - but the trouble is that different people see different judgements in the various words, and in some cases these are incompatible so there may be no completely neutral way to speak.  If your neutrality is visible in general, then problems of this sort can be overcome.  Of course, the worst thing is that a lot of people, sadly, actively wish not to be neutral when speaking of these things...

[Carl-E]

...I'll deliver my opinion that 'trans' is a noun, both in the original Latin and as a colloquial term for any person that has transitioned genders.

But that's opinion, and an incorrect one at that.  Trans-, in English, is a prefix.  It has been "nounified" incorrectly, and is also offensive to those who have problematic gender assignment, mainly by its use as a slur. 

Okay, this is kinda getting on my nerves abit.

Try thinking of how the insensitivity of those terms gets on the nerves of those who are called them. 

I can't say "She-Male" cause it's derogatory/insulting/misogynist/sexist/I used it wrong/whatever.
I can't say "Crossdresser/Trap" cause it's derogatory/insulting/misogynist/sexist/I used it wrong/whatever.
I can't say "Trans/Transexual/Transvestite/TS" cause it's derogatory/insulting/misogynist/sexist/I used it wrong/whatever.
I can't say "Gender Fluid" cause it's derogatory/insulting/misogynist/sexist/I used it wrong/whatever.

Right the first time.  Try avoiding those terms and using the ones that have been discussed, extensively, in these very forums! 

I can't even say "Woman/Girl/Madam/Miss/Mrs./Hostess/Mistress/(Insert female pronoun here)" without getting some grief about it!!

Naah, it hasn't gone that far!   

[westrim]

...I'll deliver my opinion that 'trans' is a noun, both in the original Latin and as a colloquial term for any person that has transitioned genders.

But that's opinion, and an incorrect one at that.  Trans-, in English, is a prefix.  It has been "nounified" incorrectly, and is also offensive to those who have problematic gender assignment, mainly by its use as a slur. 

I can cite sources, if you wish. You wouldn't like me when I cite sources.

References aside, as I said it's a colloquialism, and by nature informal and malleable- it's just as correct as 'y'all'. It's a one syllable noun standing in for a longer noun, quite common and accepted, including the occasional converted prefix. Also, 'trans' in trans fats is not short for anything at all nor a prefix, being a current usage of the Latin term.

As for whether it's offensive or not, I tried to write a response several times, but ultimately nixed them all. The ultimate point is that everything is offensive to someone- and yes, there are some people that will be offended by female pronouns. Some of them are stupid things to be offended by, some suffer guilt by association (see: negro), and some are misinterpreted by uninformed bystanders (as I was reminded a couple weeks ago, the first time I heard someone get called German, I thought it was a grave insult). Some of those interpretations aren't worth my effort tiptoeing around.

[Adjamemnon]

Can we have just one meal where you don't talk business?

[Barmymoo]

The reason I posted publically was because it could have been almost anyone who made the same mistake, so it was useful to make the correction publically. I didn't expect to have such a strong reaction - I apologise if I offended anyone, as that was not my intention, but I won't apologise for the statement itself because what I said was correct and not offensive.

Westrim, citing sources is viewed very positively on this forum and in certain sections is strongly encouraged.

You're correct that the term "trans" can be a noun, I should have said "trans isn't a noun in this context". When it is being used as a short-form of "transgender" then it is an adjective, because "transgender" is an adjective, when being used to describe people.

It's not about whether certain words can ever be used in a different way - in that specific context, that specific word was playing a specific role as an adjective and was used incorrectly.

I also agree that there can be a point where someone taking offence is ridiculous. But this is not one of those instances. Reducing someone to the prefix describing an aspect of their gender identity is offensive. Try and see it from a different perspective - I am a woman and I happen to have quite large breasts. In a context where such a statement would be relevant, I wouldn't be offended at being referred to as a "large-breasted woman". But if someone referred to me as "a large-breasted" without the word woman, I'd feel that was rude. As Paul said, it would be equally correct to remove the article and just say "large-breasted" or "trans".

Honestly, it was only partly about the actual content of the word (in that when there's the possibility of a mistake offending someone, I think it's more important to point it out than if it was a simple typo which no one would be upset by). The overall point was one of grammar; I teach english grammar, it's something I care about.


I just looked a bit more into the term "trans fat" and to see if I can find any instances of trans being a noun. Trans fat is so called because the fatty acids are "trans isomer", meaning "between" (I don't know what an isomer is, but that word itself is a noun - trans is describing it, and the two words together form what I call a "noun phrase" but I don't know if there's an academic term for the concept). Trans is just latin for "between", which isn't a noun - it's strictly a preposition, but it serves a descriptive purpose.

[Vurogj]

enticing your customers' imaginations with large amounts of vivid data?

If the subtle pun in there was intentional, you are brilliant. If it wasn't, er, oh look, a mongoose!

[judemorrigan]

Poor Claire.  I mean, I know Marten warned her, but still.  Poor Claire.  This has been quite the trip for her.

[Fenriswolf]

"Everything is offensive to someone" is a total cop out at any time and especially when it comes to an incredibly marginalised group that is at a horrendously high risk of violence. Trans women are women, trans men are men, we're not talking about genderqueer or non-binary genders here: it's not complicated.

Calling someone "a trans" is about as polite as calling someone "a black" or "a gay". It is not exactly difficult to grasp that people do not want to be described like a thing rather than a person with a specific trait. Using "transgendered" rather than "transgender" or "trans*" is an easier mistake to make, but it's still basic respect to try and learn these things.

Getting irate that you have to think about your language? Well too damn bad, because you clearly can't begin to imagine what it's like to have people in your life refer to you as the wrong gender, at best coloured by the thought that you're deluded, or a freak, or just as commonly, disgusting. If anyone who knows them as trans actually chooses to stay in their life.

Give people the basic respect of calling them by their name and by their preferred pronouns. It's that easy.

[Valdís]

Okay, this is kinda getting on my nerves abit.

/.../

Honestly, try and use the "right word," you get grief about it no matter what you do!! Can anyone make up their minds already?

Oh come now, she was just being a Grammar Nazi. I doubt anyone around would take offense to being called trans* when they are. Also:

"She-Male" - This one should be obvious. Also it's for porn.
"Crossdresser/Trap" - This is just wrong, but it's fine when talking about what it actually means. Also Trap is just internet slang, your mileage may vary.
"Trans/Transsexual/Transvestite/TS" - Again, Transvestism is different, but these are proper uses.
"Gender Fluid" - Suitable for people who are, sure.
"Insert female pronoun here" - Doesn't really make sense to use inbetweener pronouns for people who aren't fluid, whether trans- or cisgender.

There isn't a monolithic "other" outside the norm, so one can't address all smaller groups as one.

[GarandMarine]

*Takes a step to the left of the trainwreck about who should be properly called what, has potentially helpful experience, but everyone else seems to have it covered*

Others have said it before, but now I, personally, suddenly understand Marten much better. Imagine that happening all through his life.

Scene: Tween Marten walks in the front door, to see the living dungeon room and his mom in nothing but garters and stiletto boots standing on a guys back and 5 production guys.
"Welp, I'll be upstairs doing homework."
Okay honey, there's lemonade in the fridge if you're thirsty!"

This was my thought as well, you gotta wonder how that fucks with your head. Mom's a porn star, how does that affect your perception of the opposite sex? Actual sex? Certainly changes how you're gonna browse the internet for porn. One bad search... "Oh god! My eyes!". It's also worth noting that Veronica still actively and forcefully "mothers" Martin. "Be a good boy and look away" you could make a case for emasculation there, and it's been noted before by myself, and others on this forum that she (Veronica) can be quiet controlling in Martin's life.
 
All things considered it might be pretty amazing that Martin has the spine he has and manages healthy emotional relationships, not to mention sexual relationships that don't involve a pound of chocolate chip pancake batter, an aerial restraint system and a trampoline.

...that last bit actually sounds kinda fun... idea for next date night me thinks.

[Welu]

I find it interesting that Claire is shocked in Panel 4, but not blushing.

I think she used her blush quote for the day helping with the tie.

I also like the matter-of-fact nature of how Veronica desribes her underthings in Panel 3. I know this probably isn't the first time she's done it for Jane, I also get she knows Marten is used to his mum's work. Although Claire is not someone she has met before. Even with Marten's warning this must be surprising to her, to say the least.

[Black Sword]

Intransigent fellow that I am, I think I'll continue using whatever terms spring to mind and ignore the resultant screeches. Too much political correctness and niceties, so call a spade a spade and damn the rest. (was not around for the debate, does not intend to be "educated" about it either)

now that I've done my querulous bit... good Lord I am glad I am from a normal family. Marten's would leave me traumatized. More so than I already am.

[Valdís]

Intransigent fellow that I am, I think I'll continue using whatever terms spring to mind and ignore the resultant screeches. Too much political correctness and niceties, so call a spade a spade and damn the rest. (was not around for the debate, does not intend to be "educated" about it either)

Right.. Because calling an Indonesian woman a Chinaman is totally just avoiding "Political correctness". Man, descriptive terms are oppressive, what happened to the good old days when one could just say "freak" and be done with it?

[de_la_Nae]

You know, this might not be obvious to people that don't browse some of the other sections of this forum obsessively (i.e. me), but you do know this isn't an abstract issue, some of the people whose names are being discussed are right here.

I mean we're not friends or anything, BSword, but we've been playing games together. What are you trying to say that I am?

Now this whole thing was started by a minor, commonly-used mistake. Hell it's one I've made. And goodness knows that the language regarding being Trans* has been a mutable, difficult thing to wrangle. I don't think anyone's really trying to jump down anyone's throat here. I'm not quite sure where some of the apparent anger is coming from. A word was used slightly improperly, and there is a little cultural and emotional baggage that goes with that word, so someone told someone why in this context that's a difficult usage.

I mean, hell, it's not like we're discussing the finer points of acceptable times to call someone a 'nigga'. Well...maybe a tiny bit, actually, if that gives any understanding on this end at least. Not *nearly* as much, but a little.

[pwhodges]

I think it's time to put a damper on this discussion of language, which is straying beyond the actual point that started it. 

The forum rules require civility and politeness, and this covers the use of appropriate language in sensitive cases.  The subject of talking about trans* people is well covered in a couple of threads in the Discuss sub-forum, and has been aired a number of times here as well; the Chatter sub-forum also has threads that have touched on other sexual and gender terminology. 

There is no reason not to try to get it right; but it's also necessary that mistakes made in good faith will be tolerated, and gently corrected, if appropriate (and equally, that the correction is accepted and taken to heart), rather than used as a jumping-off point for criticism and argument.

[Soulsynger]

[ ... ]
All things considered it might be pretty amazing that Martin has the spine he has and manages healthy emotional relationships, not to mention sexual relationships that don't involve a pound of chocolate chip pancake batter, an aerial restraint system and a trampoline.

...that last bit actually sounds kinda fun... idea for next date night me thinks.

... OH DEAR GOD my mind's eye
(edit: also, I'd go on that date with you, regardless of your gender. I mean, seriously, I wouldn't care the tiniest bit what you are or what you wish to be designated as, just to see you smile the ensuing hilarity of what you described.  )

[ ... ] Hell it's one I've made.
[ ... ] I mean, hell, [ ... ]

While we're on the topic of bad words. *angrily shakes his cane in one hand and grips his inhailer ever so slightly tighter*
How could you!