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Star Wars: Episode VIII

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JoeCovenant:

--- Quote from: Tova on 10 Jan 2018, 02:55 ---Long response coming, but I've noticed that the precise phrase "bad story telling" is probably the one thing in common between the vast majority of complaints.

Influencing each other?

--- End quote ---

Quite possibly...
Re: the articles above... The second I have already read, but under a different title and site (!)
The first, (surprise, surprise!) opens with exactly what I have not seen anywhere... "People are complaining because the white male heroes are failing and the women are not!!" Seriously, I have not seen that anywhere else other than in these articles decrying it! Other than that, the article seems to be saying.. all these things have been changed and people are hating it. (It does touch on the humour, and does make the distinction that the humour of *older* star wars was different and not so brutally LOOK! LOOK! THIS IS FUNNY! But then tries to say "So what!?" Well.. that's kinda ther p[oint... Star wars isn't a comedy, and this movie opens with it trying to be one... It's almost as if they are trying to emulate the Marvel movies and their humour... except their has ALWAYS been out-and-out humour in Marvel. Star Wars had "amusing asides", and of course R2 and Threepio... who were (again) all but ignored in this one.

One of the articles ends by saying the filmmaker "Made star wars his own... and what's the problem with that?"
Well.. *I* would say when that filmmakers vision is so far removed from (to all intents and purposes ) around 50% of the franchises 'fans' (and probably of the higher age brackets who made it the success it was) *I* would say that's half the problem right there.

Tova, I'm looking forward to your post...
I just wish I had time to compose these responses more fully... (I only really access this site when I am at work ! :) :) :)  )

Tova:
Sorry that I haven't got to this! In between a potentially life-changing a career switch and adopting a kitten, along with various minor home renovations, I've barely had time to sneeze. Better later than never! Regardless, here are some of my thoughts.

Spoilers within.

(click to show/hide)I'll begin by admitting that, while I always endeavour to watch a film with no expectations, this was not the case here. You can see a couple of these at least simply by reviewing my previous posts in the SW threads. So, while I admit that I tend to be critical of fans who disliked the film because it wasn't precisely what they wanted, I admit that part of the reason I liked the film was because it gave me what I wanted.

I did expect that Rey's parents would be no-one of significance.
I did expect Luke to initially be unwilling to train Rey.
I did expect the film to diverge from the previous film's mirroring of the original trilogy.

On the last of these points, one of the most interesting aspects of the film was how Luke's final act mirrored a scene, not in Empire Strike Back, but in A New Hope. More on this later.

The strongest aspect of the film, in my opinion, was its meditations on failure and how to transcend it. I guess you could say that this is a topic of great interest to me. Not because I have failed, actually. But because I have feared failure, and this has held me back.

This theme informed each sub-plot of the film. It informed the failure of the code-breaker plan - to me, its failure was crucial to the theme of the film, and did not mean that this entire portion of the film was a "waste of time." It informed Luke's story, as it must have done given that we already knew that his Jedi Academy had ended in failure. It informed Poe's transformation from the flyboy who recklessly lost lives to leader ("What are you looking at me for? Follow him.").

One thing I wasn't expecting, of course, was the lightsabre battle with Rey and Kylo temporarily teaming up to defeat the Praetorian guard. While I'm speaking of moments I enjoyed, I also enjoyed the scenes between Rose and Finn. I loved the little callback to A New Hope with R2D2. And many more moments.

One of the big criticisms I've seen of the film is that Luke is "diminished." I don't at all see him as at all diminished. Quite the opposite.

We already knew that his Academy had failed. I can easily imagine that he would have felt a heavy responsibility in training Ben, and that his fears that Ben would fall to the dark side would have been very real. He knew that this was the fate of Obi-Wan as a teacher - would Luke be able to avoid the same fate? I can understand why some felt that Luke would not have fallen into despair when this did happen, but considering all that he has gone through, the emotions he would have felt at the death of his own father, and then his failure in training the son of his sister and his best friend, I would have been amazed if he did not fall into despair. I am surprised that more people did not expect it. Why did you think he was in exile?

The reason I say that Luke is not diminished pivots around the scene with Yoda, which is the real heart of the film. The scene that follows, where Luke uses his head and saves his friends, not by recklessly plunging into battle, but by projecting his image over a huge distance, is not only a deliberate contrast with his actions in The Last Jedi in saving his father, but is also an echo of Obi-Wan's actions in The Last Jedi. Like Obi-Wan, not only has Luke ensured the future of Rey, his padawan, but he done so in a way that surpassed Obi-Wan. As Yoda says, we are what they go beyond - this is the fate of all masters.

I can see that some people would have preferred a cool battle between Luke and Kylo, but this was far better. If I wanted to watch a film with a sequence of cool moments strung together by a barely coherent plot, I'd go watch a Marvel film.

I think that this is a thoughtful film rather than one that opts for fan service and spectacle, and in this way, I think this will eventually be seen as one of the greatest Star Wars films.

JoeCovenant:

--- Quote from: Tova on 18 Jan 2018, 01:36 ---Sorry that I haven't got to this! In between a potentially life-changing a career switch and adopting a kitten, along with various minor home renovations, I've barely had time to sneeze. Better later than never! Regardless, here are some of my thoughts.

Spoilers within.

(click to show/hide)I'll begin by admitting that, while I always endeavour to watch a film with no expectations, this was not the case here. You can see a couple of these at least simply by reviewing my previous posts in the SW threads. So, while I admit that I tend to be critical of fans who disliked the film because it wasn't precisely what they wanted, I admit that part of the reason I liked the film was because it gave me what I wanted.

I did expect that Rey's parents would be no-one of significance.
I did expect Luke to initially be unwilling to train Rey.
I did expect the film to diverge from the previous film's mirroring of the original trilogy.

On the last of these points, one of the most interesting aspects of the film was how Luke's final act mirrored a scene, not in Empire Strike Back, but in A New Hope. More on this later.

The strongest aspect of the film, in my opinion, was its meditations on failure and how to transcend it. I guess you could say that this is a topic of great interest to me. Not because I have failed, actually. But because I have feared failure, and this has held me back.

This theme informed each sub-plot of the film. It informed the failure of the code-breaker plan - to me, its failure was crucial to the theme of the film, and did not mean that this entire portion of the film was a "waste of time." It informed Luke's story, as it must have done given that we already knew that his Jedi Academy had ended in failure. It informed Poe's transformation from the flyboy who recklessly lost lives to leader ("What are you looking at me for? Follow him.").

One thing I wasn't expecting, of course, was the lightsabre battle with Rey and Kylo temporarily teaming up to defeat the Praetorian guard. While I'm speaking of moments I enjoyed, I also enjoyed the scenes between Rose and Finn. I loved the little callback to A New Hope with R2D2. And many more moments.

One of the big criticisms I've seen of the film is that Luke is "diminished." I don't at all see him as at all diminished. Quite the opposite.

We already knew that his Academy had failed. I can easily imagine that he would have felt a heavy responsibility in training Ben, and that his fears that Ben would fall to the dark side would have been very real. He knew that this was the fate of Obi-Wan as a teacher - would Luke be able to avoid the same fate? I can understand why some felt that Luke would not have fallen into despair when this did happen, but considering all that he has gone through, the emotions he would have felt at the death of his own father, and then his failure in training the son of his sister and his best friend, I would have been amazed if he did not fall into despair. I am surprised that more people did not expect it. Why did you think he was in exile?

The reason I say that Luke is not diminished pivots around the scene with Yoda, which is the real heart of the film. The scene that follows, where Luke uses his head and saves his friends, not by recklessly plunging into battle, but by projecting his image over a huge distance, is not only a deliberate contrast with his actions in The Last Jedi in saving his father, but is also an echo of Obi-Wan's actions in The Last Jedi. Like Obi-Wan, not only has Luke ensured the future of Rey, his padawan, but he done so in a way that surpassed Obi-Wan. As Yoda says, we are what they go beyond - this is the fate of all masters.

I can see that some people would have preferred a cool battle between Luke and Kylo, but this was far better. If I wanted to watch a film with a sequence of cool moments strung together by a barely coherent plot, I'd go watch a Marvel film.

I think that this is a thoughtful film rather than one that opts for fan service and spectacle, and in this way, I think this will eventually be seen as one of the greatest Star Wars films.

--- End quote ---

Nice piece.
I'm honestly glad you got that out of the movie.
I just don't agree with the premise you put forward. :)

However, as I've said often, my major problems with this film were in the craft. Bad film decisions and plotholes you could fly a star destroyer through.
(As well as abandoning/ignoring/wilfully discarding almost everything set-up in EpVII)

A "study in failure" doesn't make a compelling movie, to me...

BenRG:
I've just seen the film for the first time and, after thinking about it, my overwhelming response was 'Ho-hum'. It wasn't good and it wasn't bad but it was mediocre, sometimes confused and I really didn't like the writing. What I liked the least was the constant juggling of idiot balls leading to bizarre plot devices whose only apparent purpose was to justify future plot devices or SFX set-pieces.

(click to show/hide)I agree with those fans who considered Admiral Holdo's character was an idiot. It's hard to understate the amount of problems she could have avoided if she had told Poe something to give him reason to trust her in a scenario where every passing hour seemed to confirm that she had no strategy except 'run away'. Indeed, I can see no reason why she shouldn't have told at least her senior command staff who could then have reassured their subordinates. As it turns out, that strategy was pretty bad as it is and I'm guessing it was a 'plan B' that Leia had thrown together in a few minutes when they realised that the First Order was somehow tracking their hyperspace jumps.

Also: Are we supposed to believe that a multi-millennia-old civilisation that mass-produces AI appliances of all kinds doesn't have something as simple as an autopilot?
There were a few moments that I liked:

(click to show/hide)
* The use of 'two people in the same place experience different things' with the confrontation between Ben and Luke at Luke's Jedi academy;
* The highlighting of the fact that, as Rey predicted, it was Snoke's arrogance that was his downfall;
* The breaking of the Skywalker Lightsabre, surely symbolising the impending end of the Skywalker family and lineage with Ben Solo's inevitable death in Episode IX;

* Leia's implicit handing off of the torch by telling the few surviving Resistance fighters to go with Poe.These things aside, my overwhelming sense was, as I have already said, was a film that was mediocre. Perhaps it is because I am somewhat involved in the Star Wars online community and that a lot of the philosophical issues regarding the weaknesses of and possible/probably corruption of the old Jedi Order have already been done to death on discussion forums, particularly around the time of The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones led me to be unimpressed by the philosophical musings. Add in unimpressive battle scenes (with one notable exception), too much fourth wall-straining comedic one-liners and far too much 'this must not work or we won't have any reason for the next plot point' narrative convenience, I was generally dismissive of the script.

I suppose what sticks in my craw more than anything else is the ongoing policy to have the OT lead characters go out with a whimper: defeated and failures in their own minds. I find it a somewhat dispiriting act of cynical iconoclasm (clearly with the intent of making the newer characters seem more genuinely heroic) and it turns me off of the sequel films.

BenRG's Rating: 5/10

Tova:
Well, I agree with one thing. This won't win me any friends, but I do think there's an element of groupthink among hardcore fans.

Edit: A New Old Skywalker

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