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10 - Best character in the strip to date!

1 (1.1%)

9 - Not perfect but is someone doing interesting, useful and funny things

1 (1.1%)

8 - They're surprisingly good/funny/interesting

5 (5.6%)

7 - There's potential there for doing interesting/useful/funny things in the future

27 (30%)

6 - Ho-hum; Jeph needs to try harder if he wants me to be interested in them

7 (7.8%)

5 - Indifferent; don't care what happens with them

9 (10%)

4 - I really don't get what Jeph sees in them

15 (16.7%)

3 - I tend to skip over everything they say and do to focus on other characters

2 (2.2%)

2 - I actually get annoyed when they're in panel

9 (10%)

1 - You'd be happier if they're never shown again

14 (15.6%)

Total Members Voted: 82

[BenRG]

Okay, because we're not afraid of open communication here, I think that the time's come to assess how the forum is responding to Tilly.

This is a simple numerical poll with a value assigned to how you view her (for ease of reference, I've added suggestions about what each value could be considered to mean). The objective here is to get a feel for the overall view of how everyone sees them. Don't be afraid to post what's really going on in your heads. Not that people on this board do that anyway!

For me? I have to admit to be mostly indifferent to Tilly. They were an interesting and quirky little experiment but they've not really endeared themselves to me and I really can't see what value there is to the character going forwards. There are lots of other ways to kick Hannelore's arc into motion and I can't see Tilly having any kind of an interesting interaction with other characters that doesn't boil down to them taking advantage of Tilly's reflexive need to do anything Hannelore might want them to do.

Now, let's talk about this week in the strip.

I'm kind of expecting Hannelore to take her new PA on a tour of the town this week and maybe for a while more. So, we'll have Tilly interacting with Momo, May, Faye, Bubbles and maybe the Secret Bakery crew. It may be interesting to see how they react to (and creates reaction from) the various different personalities in Hannelore's life.

[Bad Superman]

I voted "1", for reasons I described in detail in last weeks thread.

I don't see any benefit in Tilly being a part of the QC universe.

[Case]

Given that I've always had a weak spot for "amoral antihero(ine)s", it's surprising how creepy an "amoral good" character can be.

Let's try a 7.

(Yes, I'm surprising myself here - stop gawking at me ...)

[BenRG]

FWIW, in the classic alignment spectrum, you can't have 'amoral good', only 'lawful neutral' and 'lawful evil'. IMO, 'amoral good' is an oxymoron. FWIW, I list Tilly as 'lawful neutral'.

[Case]

FWIW, in the classic alignment spectrum, you can't have 'amoral good', only 'lawful neutral' and 'lawful evil'. IMO, 'amoral good' is an oxymoron. FWIW, I list Tilly as 'lawful neutral'.

Yeah, y'know, 'lawful neutral/evil/headstand' is not 'classic', that's D&D-jargon (and never said much to me either way) & I don't think the human moral spectrum can be readily reduced to the rules of an RPG. And about 'amoral good' being an oxymoron: Tell that to The Operative ...

"All of them: Better Worlds ..."

[hedgie]

IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

[pwhodges]

The mods would like to say:

Global Moderator Comment

Since the Tilly misnaming joke has been addressed in the comic and seems to be over, we're going to go back to the standard of requesting everyone please try to spell all character names (or nicknames) correctly.

[Case]

IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

Yup, but he does evil to achieve good, to "make all of them Better Worlds" (Admittedly, he's also a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but it's the principle that counts ...  )

That is what is so unsettling about him: He's completely sincere about being a monster and having no place in the Utopia he tries to bring about - yet he's also completely convinced that the end justifies any and every means necessary to achieve it, and seeing as he happens to be on speaking (and shaving) terms with a military-grade psychopath, he considers himself to be the appropriate tool. The thought that the means might taint the goodness of the end never occurs to him.

P.S.: Also, Mal and the gang are quite open about not being 'The Good Guys'^TM, either.

[foolsguinea]

I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.

[NemesisDancer]

Tilly's alright but I would've personally preferred to see further development of existing characters (particularly the Secret Bakery staff), or caught up on characters we haven't seen in a while (Marigold, Steve, etc.) rather than introducing more new ones.

[mercykills]

Personally, they get a '1'.

I, seriously, think the main cast should've stood aside and let the psycho stalker throw themselves into ocean. But whatever....

If we're just talking story-wise? It's still a '1'. Honestly, someone tell me what the stalker brings to the table that's unique; one role that isn't filled by another main or secondary cast member. PREFERABLY, something that doesn't make the skin crawl.

I mean, when Clinton was first introduced, it was played off for a laugh(?) of him having an intense(creepy) fascination with Hanners but that was just one(maybe two, at the most IIRC) strip and then we quickly moved on. Heh. Out of weird curiosity, I would, probably, like to meet the fan who looked at that unfortunate trait of his character and said, "Hey, what if we took that small part of Clinton and made an entire character who was just THAT! Just intense and creepy, all the time."

But, it's like a war...we're already in it, too late to pull out, now. So, f*** it, buckle up, let's see where this new character takes us.

[Neko_Ali]

I think "Jesus Tilly calm down' is a good nickname for them. And even better advice...

[Shjade]

IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

Yup, but he does evil to achieve good, to "make all of them Better Worlds" (Admittedly, he's also a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but it's the principle that counts ...  )

Right...but if he recognizes he does evil, he's not amoral. He has a moral sense, and is concerned with the rightness of his actions. He values the ends over the means, but he's not indifferent to the means. If he were, he wouldn't have had the moral event horizon breakdown at the end when he realized he was on the wrong side, because oh well, I guess I was wrong, but whatever, who cares how wrong it was.

Basically the Operative just...er...operates on a utilitarian sense of ethics.

[Timemaster]

I've voted number 8.
Yes, certainly an eight. Not the best character, but certainly really really funny. 

TM

[brasca]

I voted for 7 because I think there's a lot of room for potential and while this strip does have a large cast of characters who haven't appeared in awhile because of lack of any plots to involve them in I think it's better this way.  Creating a far fetched reason for Marigold, May, or Brun to be Hannelore's personal assistant would just be too convoluted.  Besides new people enter our lives all the time while others fade away into past acquaintances. 

Given those past nicknames of Tilly I'd say they have an atypical psychological profile and will fit in nicely.  Perhaps it was one of the reasons Beatrice chose her. 

[badbum61]

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...

[Gyrre]

IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

Yup, but he does evil to achieve good, to "make all of them Better Worlds" (Admittedly, he's also a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but it's the principle that counts ...  )

That is what is so unsettling about him: He's completely sincere about being a monster and having no place in the Utopia he tries to bring about - yet he's also completely convinced that the end justifies any and every means necessary to achieve it, and seeing as he happens to be on speaking (and shaving) terms with a military-grade psychopath, he considers himself to be the appropriate tool. The thought that the means might taint the goodness of the end never occurs to him.

P.S.: Also, Mal and the gang are quite open about not being 'The Good Guys'^TM, either.

As I recall, Light Yagami subscribed to a similar philosophy as his Kira persona in Deathnote.

Something to the effect of making himself a twisted sort of martyr by being only person performing evil acts in his vision for a new world.

[Gyrre]

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...

Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...

[BenRG]

Marten! Marten! Focus, son! You are drifting off again and you need to focus!

Yes, Tilly is over-intense to the point where you have to question their ability to function properly. It's inevitable (especially during school) that this would have led either to abuse or to people who were permanently worried about their safety or health (mental or emotional especially).

I also have to agree with Hannelore: Tilly has failed in professionalism to date; why start worrying about that now?

And about 'amoral good' being an oxymoron: Tell that to The Operative ...[/youtube]

Definitely Lawful Evil. I'm pretty sure he would cheerfully agree with the analysis.

[DaiJB]

Tardigrade!? Yes! That fits her perfectly - the most nearly indestructible, unstoppable organism on earth

[Timemaster]

Hanners,
Tillys negotiation to get you a new phone has been very professional, IMO.
And it‘s only one and a half day left.

Oh, I‘m gonna enjoy this. 
Timemaster

[A Duck]

Huh, going by their past "nicknames", I'd say Tilly and Hanners seem like very compatible people.

They're both very "intense" on their endeavours, for various reasons.

Of course, disconsidering the whole "PA" angle.

[Cornelius]

To be fair, the negotiation did not strictly have anything to do with their relationship, even if it does demonstrate some professional aptitude for the position. As does the schedule she proposes for the rest of the day.

To me, Tilly has potential. The mere fact of being a new character opens up perspectives outside of the regular cast, when it comes to challenging Hannelore. I think the problem is mostly just being over eager, and not seeing how that may cross other people's boundaries. On the other hand, seeing Hannelore recognise some of the issues she struggled with herself, and accomodating for that, is interesting in itself.

The person who hired Tilly for the job - as assigned by Beatrice - probably had just the dossier to base themselves on as well. As that is, as shown last week, wildly inaccurate at best, it's not really surprising that personality-wise, the hire turns out to be a mismatch.

I disagree with most of the existing characters that have been proposed as a PA. Only Winslow - or Momo - could realistically fill that niche. May is out of the question - even if she does show some deference to Hannelore - as, like someone in the last WCDT suggested, she is hardly diplomatic enough.  I'll admit, that her friendship with Marigold has helped Hannelore push some boundaries. But by doing so, she has come to be part of Hanners' comfort zone. I don't think she can still helpfully challenge Hannelore.
Quite aside from that, I doubt either Marigold or Brun would make effective PAs.

[Akima]

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...

Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...

Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

[traroth]

I voted 1. I don't actively dislike Tilly, I just find them, you know, boring.

They negociated a good deal with Hanners' telco? How thrilling...

The most fun we seem to have here is with the nicknames given to them.

[traroth]

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...

Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...

Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...

[TinPenguin]

Turns out we are all Faye.

[Marco]

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...

Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...

Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...

Tinytoon, Tiamat, Telecaster, Teetotaler, Tacobell, Titanomachy...

[JoeCovenant]

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...

Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...

Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...

Tinytoon, Tiamat, Telecaster, Teetotaler, Tacobell, Titanomachy...

Tedious, Tepid, Terrible, Tilled

[maneyan]

Voted a seven. While they pissed me off initially, I can't help but having warmed up to them. Ever since Hannelore showed she could put down boundaries I warmed up considerably. Having an annoying puppy follow you around can be funny, as long as you can set down boundaries. It's the difference between an annoying associate and letting people walk all over you.

[Moggie]

Maybe Tillywinks, from tiddlywinks.

[daphne]

I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.

Why do you go through all the pronouns and decide on the wrong one? Do you also decidedly use wrong pronouns in real life as a statement?

[snufflebottoms]

Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

[Timemaster]

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...

Tilapia, Tepaché, Tetch, Titch...

Tarpon, Trigger, Tokamak, Tarantula...

Tagliatelle, Turtle, Tyranosaurus, Terminator, Thesaurus, Telephone, Trepan...

Tinytoon, Tiamat, Telecaster, Teetotaler, Tacobell, Titanomachy...

Tedious, Tepid, Terrible, Tilled

Thrilly from Thriller. They certainly give some people thrills here. 

TM

[JoeCovenant]

Thrilly from Thriller. They certainly give some people thrills here. 

"Ahh, this is obviously be some strange usage of the word 'thrills', that I wasn't previously aware of."

[pwhodges]

Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

Global Moderator Comment

Stupidity or carelessness we try to treat gently, but wars we pounce on...

[jwhouk]

Tillmeister, Tilodora, Til the night wind blows, Til There Was You...

Sent from my NXA8QC116 using Tapatalk

[Neko_Ali]

Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

Global Moderator Comment

Stupidity or carelessness we try to treat gently, but wars we pounce on...

Yes, I noticed the mistake in my post this morning and went back to change it.

[Case]

IIRC, the Operative admits that what he does is evil, and that he's a monster.

Yup, but he does evil to achieve good, to "make all of them Better Worlds" (Admittedly, he's also a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but it's the principle that counts ...  )

Right...but if he recognizes he does evil, he's not amoral. He has a moral sense, and is concerned with the rightness of his actions.

Abstract: I never claimed it to be a philosophy designed to withstand scrutiny for very long ... (with The Operative, it mostly doesn't have to ).

(click to show/hide)

Uhm - 'concerned' is not the word I'd use in that context (cf. below), but as they say: YMMV (and the subject may be a lacking a few sammiches ...)

He values the ends over the means, but he's not indifferent to the means. If he were, he wouldn't have had the moral event horizon breakdown at the end when he realized he was on the wrong side, because oh well, I guess I was wrong, but whatever, who cares how wrong it was.

Basically the Operative just...er...operates on a utilitarian sense of ethics.

Hmmmh - Way it looked to me is that basically he likes killing just as much as he likes showing off that he's really good at it and the whole "utilitarian ethics mumbojumbo" is merely his way of not acknowledging to himself that his enjoyment of brutality is what it's all about for him. He's not merely 'not indifferent to the means' - he is actually rather enthusiastic about them, and his whole pseudo-philosophical blurb is designed to obfuscate - primarily to himself - that for him, the means is the end, really.

We're talking about a dude who engineers an gravity-assisted 'suicide' and then (apparently sincerely) congratulates the victim on their honourable death (conveniently forgetting the 'involuntary' element) - instead of simply killing the mark in the fastest, least painful way, which is what a 'concerned utilitarian killer' would have done. He even 'offers' the latter option to the victim ("would you rather be killed in your sleep, like an ailing pet?"), just before making him a stage-prop in the enactment of his own 'honourable suicide'.

Methinks that his epiphany at the end is not so much about him realizing he was on the wrong side all along as it is about him running out of flimsy excuses for not acknowledging that he really, really likes what he does, and that this is his reason for doing it. Recall that Shepherd Book all-but-admitted to Mal that he'd been sort of an 'Operative' once ("The man they like to send is a man who believes hard") before mending his ways after he realized the callousness of the whole outfit  - methinks that 'concerned' is a word more appropriate for the likes of him. Also recall that Mal immediately distrusts the Operative's 'epiphany', whereas he trusted Book implicitly.

Also:

(click to show/hide)

Part of my liking the character stems from his 'affirming' my deep and abiding distrust of utilitarian ethics, which is in turn due to its lack of inherent safeguards against abuse - try to construct a utilitarian critique of Fascism, for example, and compare the result to the humanitarian version (Basically: "Because human dignity, QED"). IMO, there's few things scarier than a righteous person.

[OldGoat]

I gave Tillie (I'll call them that, but their mother still yells, "Matilda Birch!" if they're in trouble) a 7. 

Criminy, people, it's Jeph's universe.  He gets to write it as he sees fit.  A few of us seem to be loosing sight of that.

Tucson, Tucumcari, Tehachapi, Tonopah...

If you give me weed, whites, and wine I'll probably end up in the emergency room.

[pwhodges]

Tillie

Close...

[OldGoat]

Tillie

Close...

Forgive me.  The Matilda I know spells the diminutive form of her Christian name "Tillie," so that's how I think of it.  I've known her much longer than I have Ms Birch.

[Welu]

I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.

One pronoun at a time is enough for most people. Errors can be understood and forgiven. Cycling through, crossing out and seemingly intentionally landing on the incorrect one is just antagonistic.

[mercykills]

Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

Yeeesh. Glad I saw this. Though I didn't misstep in my earlier post, I did forget Tilly's preferred pronouns. That would have been mortifying. 

Wishing someone would drop off the face of the earth comic is no reason to disrespect them in such a way.

I voted #6, but I should have voted #7 or #5...or even #1. I don't want Jeph to try harder with Tilly. Once it turned into Tilly standing on her their one's her own hands to find something to do, I figured this concept was burned out. Just send Tilly back to wherever people like that wait for jobs.

One pronoun at a time is enough for most people. Errors can be understood and forgiven. Cycling through, crossing out and seemingly intentionally landing on the incorrect one is just antagonistic.

Ugh, right? I guess we should just be glad they didn't include the word "it". Although I get the feeling they would have if they thought it wouldn't result in an immediate ban. >.>

[Is it cold in here?]

Tilly is a window into the plans of Beatrice for Hannelore's future.

[Perfectly Reasonable]

When first introduced, I thought Tilly had the potential to do interesting things. 'Dangerous', I said. (Because of super research skillz.) But I have been disappointed.

Now let's erase that board and get the Specials back up!

[shanejayell]

Tilly has potential, so let's see how it goes.

I DO think its time to move on to something else tho.

[DaiJB]

Looks like the pronoun war is going to continue - already see a few posts using her. *grabs popcorn*

Excuse me - I must be out of the loop here - I've seen references to 'pronouns' and 'pronoun wars' - what's that about? Is it something to do with Tilly's (to me) obscure statement about 'they/them pronouns'?

[Tova]

I wonder if Jeph has glanced at the forums recently, because a lot of the feedback I'm seeing on Patreon is very positive. Their opinion is not unanimous of course, but many people there love Tilly.

[pwhodges]

Excuse me - I must be out of the loop here - I've seen references to 'pronouns' and 'pronoun wars' - what's that about? Is it something to do with Tilly's (to me) obscure statement about 'they/them pronouns'?

There is and has been no pronoun war.  There has been some discussion of the use of non-gendered pronouns, most of which has been transferred to a thread that was already discussing the same thing, which should remove the obscurity of the remark.

There has been some dissension over the matter of deliberately getting Tilly's name wrong, but that has passed.