Comic Discussion > QUESTIONABLE CONTENT
Something bothering me a lot
Aenno:
--- Quote ---We don't have to worry about shrinking AIs into being humans because AIs don't exist. AIs are fantastical creatures, like trolls, space aliens, elves, or Morlocks.
--- End quote ---
And as fantastical creatures they are fulfilling some task. I mean, there is an answer about "why humans are X they are?". "It's realistic, people are X". You can make nearly anything as X. But if you put fantastical creature, it always for a propose.
--- Quote ---That's the way the form has worked time out of mind. If you want a wide and realistic representation of human diversity, you go to short stories and novels, which offer much more detail and differentiation, but which are longer, slower, less vivid, and more bound to particular cultures.
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...or the big part of QC, don't you think? That's actually what I liked so much - wide and realistic representation of human diversity.
I believe I should stand up for QC here. It's 3675 issues, with continuous plot, different intersecting plotlines and dozens of characters. And it is bound to particular culture. If some story don't fit to one plotline, Jeph makes four, five or ten. It's definitely not something I'd call minimalist form (not as I believe minimalist form is bad; QC just isn't it).
And when classical art used any thing like giants, sorcerers or cyclops, it was always about canonical depiction. Listeners knew that fair folk is X and they do Y. They weren't there for diversity, and actually wasn't even characters, they were plot devices.
SpanielBear:
All good points. I think your point about AI's, at the end of the day, not being AI-like enough to distinguish themselves from the humans is a fair one. With the exception of Spookybot, there's no long examination of how AI's are different, only how they are in the end the same. I can fan-wank about how that's justified forever, but at the end of the day Bubbles is very recognisable, not an alien consciousness.
But the new question- "if that's the case, what are the AI in QC for, narratively speaking", is also a good one. If they are not there to be strange aliens in themselves, what purpose are they serving?
I think they are vampires.
Hear me out. In western literature, the use of vampires in gothic novels keeps coming back, not just because they are cool monsters but because of what they can represent. Dracula back in the 19th century got to be about sexuality and desire, the Anne Rice variety played with ideas of loneliness and being social outcasts, and the more recent Twilight lot about tribalism and loyalty. The point is the vampires themselves are a useful neutral slate. If Stoker started writing about the sexual desires of middle class Victorian women, he would have been in serious trouble. Stick the concepts onto a vampire, and there's an element of ablative armour. The symbolism is there if you want to see it, but if anyone complains hey, it's just a silly monster story, right?
AI lets Jeph write about relatively controversial things with a degree of safety. If he gets something very wrong, he's writing about fictional robots not people. It also allows him to take things to a further extreme if he wants than would be possible with a straight realistic fiction. By which I mean, if he wants to write about issues surrounding accessibility of healthcare, for example, making the characters involved be robots rather than people takes out some the sting (an exploding robo-butt is much easier to joke about than Faye's alcoholism) but also allows him to highlight specific elements- body-parts and health being treated as a commodity, for example. It gives him narrative options.
I also like the idea that robots represent an exploration of xenia. One of my favourite fantasy series is the Elderling Cycle, written by Robin Hobb. Without spoiling too much hopefully, one of the big questions explored througout the series of many books is that humans do not have equals in the world. They are the apex predators, the arch-exploiters, there is nothing else around that is like us. So what happens if that changes? Robin Hobb looks at it from a variety of angles, the need for humans to really take into account different points of view and moralities, to start sharing a world because dominating it is no longer possible. The conclusions she comes to are pretty ambiguous, and her characters are some of the best written out there. If you like high fantasy and haven't read her stuff, trust me, she's awesome.
Anyhow.
Jeph's exploration is much less full-throttle than Robin Hobb's, but nonetheless, there is an element of "Humanity is no longer alone" that get's explored. It's a small element in amongst the relationship drama, but the tensions raised by the singularity are an over-arching theme that would not be possble without the presence of AI characters. In this case, the fact that they act like humans isn't so much of a problem, it's the fact that their arrival is something that humans are having to adapt to. It's a nice background for the story, and one that Jeph can bring in and out of focus as he chooses.
Aenno:
--- Quote --- The point is the vampires themselves are a useful neutral slate. If Stoker started writing about the sexual desires of middle class Victorian women, he would have been in serious trouble. Stick the concepts onto a vampire, and there's an element of ablative armour.
--- End quote ---
I do fully agree. As far as I know, Stoker actually is very puritan vampire literature, there was a lot of more obvious works of fiction about vampires before him.
But point is, truth to be said, I didn't thought about AIs being substitute for "touchy" positions of LGBT. Of course, it's simple for me to say it, but I do believe it's not making stories better. I mean, it's simpler to joke about exploded roboass then about alcoholism exactly because alcoholism is big problem, known to a lot of people around, which you can't wave out and just take fun. That's it, giving people a way to wave out such things is something that, I believe, art shouldn't do. Just in case, I don't mean it should be, as it said here, "spoke about bestially seriously". If I want to joke about LGBT, I always can do it. If I can't it's unhealthy. It can be offensive, and better not to offend people if you wan't to be nice guy, sure - but looks like Jeph managed to do it before without being offensive?.. (Just to reference, when I study modern American literature, I was really touched by one story about Hunter Thompson, who wrote a book about Hell's Angels in his unrepeatable style; well, as far as I know, Hell's Angels aren't the most meek guys, but they weren't offended, because Thompson didn't try to invent something.)
And also there is another problem which I already pointed once or twice. When you're mixing "realistic" and "fantastic" problems, "fantastic" are inherently more bleak. They just work worse, exactly because they're fictional. That's why you'll need to heat their problems up, not cool it down. Dracula isn't just sexy guy, he is supernaturally alluring and charming. So to highlight human problems, AIs problems should be more severe than human ones in same setting. I can't see it's the case here. It's looks like it simpler to be robot in QC then to be nuclear transperson or lesbian from Georgia.
--- Quote ---I also like the idea that robots represent an exploration of xenia.
--- End quote ---
So do I.
Really, I love xenia. That's what I love about western sci-fi and fantasy so much - you see, the most prominent point of soviet sci-fi is that xenia is impossible. You can't and never would be able to understand another mind, every try of Contact (until it's humans you're trying to contact) is doomed. Look into Lem or Strugatskie. So when I had my hands on Uplift Saga I was charmed.
But the very point of xenia is that Others are, well, Others. If they are not... well, then AIs are not characters themselves, but a point to humans (again, it's not bad as it is), and no character in QC, truth to be said, maybe but Hannelore and Emily, are in place to show human reaction on changing their world so much. Marten, Dora or Faye aren't in position to really work around such things.
SpanielBear:
I've always thought the robots on QC explored more issues around minorities and race than LGBT, but that's just my interpretation. I think they tie in a lot to current debates around immigration and integration as well. And I didn't really mean protection in terms of "Because someone will get offended", I'm not accusing Jeph of authorial cowardice. I meant it more in terms of "I am not intimately familiar with this issue, so there's a risk I'll get things wrong. That'll matter slightly less if I'm talking about robots."
I also don't think that QC AI was really set up with that point in mind. It feels like Jeph had kooky AI's running around, and as more of them turned up and the universe became more fully realised, the robots were just there. So Jeph started playing around with them and tropes because he found it interesting. Their status as outsiders and the narrative vehicle they became is a bit messy, because their role wasn't clearly defined in the beginning. I don't feel that the story suffers for it myself, but again, that's a matter of personal taste.
I also think that the Dora/Marten/Faye perspective of xenia, as people who are just normal people for whom this change is just an aspect of day-to-day life, is also kind of interesting. Yes maybe it's quite idealistic, but given that most of these stories are about the big thinkers, or the ones who make the powerful decisions, to see it from the bottom up is pretty cool. I agree that the one time a real alien consciousness got involved, Spookybot, was a bit of a let-down. That felt rushed and deus-ex machinery. But the main narrative drive behind QC AI seems mainly to say "there is more that unites us than divides us", which would be hard to maintain if the AI were completely unrelatable.
Aenno:
--- Quote ---And I didn't really mean protection in terms of "Because someone will get offended", I'm not accusing Jeph of authorial cowardice. I meant it more in terms of "I am not intimately familiar with this issue, so there's a risk I'll get things wrong. That'll matter slightly less if I'm talking about robots."
--- End quote ---
Well, I never contacted Jeph in person, but by posts and around I had a feeling he is just a type of person who don't want to offend people around. But, well. Personally I'd prefer to see his opinions as they are.
--- Quote ---I also don't think that QC AI was really set up with that point in mind. It feels like Jeph had kooky AI's running around, and as more of them turned up and the universe became more fully realised, the robots were just there. So Jeph started playing around with them and tropes because he found it interesting. Their status as outsiders and the narrative vehicle they became is a bit messy, because their role wasn't clearly defined in the beginning.
--- End quote ---
Maybe. And I hadn't a problem here until robots didn't happen to be arc main players.
I mean, I was ok with Pintsize, or with earlier Momo, or with Station. They're nice, even if humans were more interesting for me personaly.
--- Quote ---I also think that the Dora/Marten/Faye perspective of xenia, as people who are just normal people for whom this change is just an aspect of day-to-day life, is also kind of interesting.
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That's true - but thing is, I can't really imagine Dora, Marten or Faye just taking sides here if some weird coincidence wouldn't put them on the fence and thereto making them decision persons. I mean, well, they already have a position, and it's kind of "ok, they're robots, they're here, some of them are nice, some of them smug assholes" *undoubtedly* They haven't "change happens" aptitude, and it was actually addressed in some issues, I believe.
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