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Poll

Marigold. Foot. Mouth. Extraction method?

She realizes she made a mistake and apologizes.
- 1 (1.9%)
She buries her head under the covers until Momo forces her to apologize.
- 18 (34.6%)
She runs off and joins Hanners on her quest for self-fulfillment.
- 2 (3.8%)
She stubbornly refuses to acknowledge she screwed up, shoe-leather-aftertaste be damned!
- 15 (28.8%)
Purple Monkey Dishwashers.
- 7 (13.5%)
Spathe Ham.
- 4 (7.7%)
Something else.
- 5 (9.6%)

Total Members Voted: 52


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Author Topic: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)  (Read 8709 times)

Emperor Norton

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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #250 on: 24 Feb 2018, 08:08 »

I am honestly baffled that "hey, check your emotions and try and make sure that they aren't controlling you" is getting blowback.

And no one called Marigold a monster. I've repeatedly said that my issue is that NO ONE in the comic is actually bringing up that that level of jealousy is a problem in and of itself. If you can't handle your SO talking to a coworker and laughing because they happen to be pretty, then there is some fundamental problem that you need to work on. That is not healthy. It's a disproportionate reaction to a frankly benign circumstance.

If I got angry enough to stomp out of the room every time my wife put the Milk in the door of the fridge rather than the main compartment, would you think that that is reasonable and that there is no burden on me to learn to deal with something so small and petty?
« Last Edit: 24 Feb 2018, 09:06 by Emperor Norton »
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brightwings00

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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #251 on: 24 Feb 2018, 09:28 »

I am honestly baffled that "hey, check your emotions and try and make sure that they aren't controlling you" is getting blowback.

And no one called Marigold a monster. I've repeatedly said that my issue is that NO ONE in the comic is actually bringing up that that level of jealousy is a problem in and of itself. If you can't handle your SO talking to a coworker and laughing because they happen to be pretty, then there is some fundamental problem that you need to work on. That is not healthy. It's a disproportionate reaction to a frankly benign circumstance.

If I got angry enough to stomp out of the room every time my wife put the Milk in the door of the fridge rather than the main compartment, would you think that that is reasonable and that there is no burden on me to learn to deal with something so small and petty?

Yes, because I have personally experienced the horror of goopy half-solid milk that's gone bad.

More seriously, though, I'm not saying that Marigold doesn't need to learn healthy coping mechanisms, for her own sake and for everyone's sake around her. Nor is she justified in lashing out or treating anyone poorly. I'm saying the most effective therapy sessions I've ever had were where the therapist let me vent, no matter what awful stuff I said--stuff that I would feel terrible about saying to anybody's face, stuff that I don't even really believe--and didn't judge me for it, but let me sit with the anger and resentment, acknowledged it, and then talked me through it. If my therapist had said "Wow, that's really horrible, how can you think like that?", I guarantee you I would've clammed up tight and suppressed everything into a tiny ball until it exploded.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #252 on: 24 Feb 2018, 09:40 »

Well, of course, you don't say "Wow that is horrible."

I would probably approach it by reversing the situation.

Something like "Well, what if Angus was visiting, and Dale saw you laughing at something Angus said, and he got upset and stomped out when you said you thought he was funny/smart/handsome whatever in response to some questions? Angus is a funny guy, I mean, his job is to be funny. And he's good-looking, and he is pretty smart."

Marigold is not empathetic and is self-absorbed. And it has nothing to do with malice, intent, or being a bad person or anything like that. When she is made aware of how what she is doing is affecting others, she tends to do the right thing, she just doesn't tend to think from other people's perspective at all. And no one seems to be helping her see how what she is doing is affecting others.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #253 on: 24 Feb 2018, 09:48 »

The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

My wife compares their emotional and dramatic role to that of servants in 17th century French plays.

I was so in awe of her nerdhood that I didn't ask what she meant.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #254 on: 24 Feb 2018, 09:59 »

On Dale's side, sure, but on Marigold's side, this isn't about communicating, this is about learning to control your feelings.

I'm being finicky, or maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but it's about developing self-esteem and security in the relationship. It's also about expressing her feelings more effectively and confidently, which is where the communication part comes in.

I think that feeling intensely jealous but controlling her feelings (aka bottling them up) is less healthy than what we've already seen.

To me, developing self esteem and security, and expressing feelings instead of what Marigold did, are emotional self-control. They are the strategic version, where an example of tactical control is breaking contact and taking a long walk when angry.

It all takes skill and practice. Marigold's had neither. She's causing unnecessary damage but it's understandable, whether or not it's excusable.

Trying to deny or freeze feelings, which I think is what you mean by "bottling them up", I agree is less healthy. It also doesn't work in the long run.

EDIT: added a badly needed comma.
« Last Edit: 24 Feb 2018, 10:23 by Is it cold in here? »
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brightwings00

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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #255 on: 24 Feb 2018, 10:03 »

Well, of course, you don't say "Wow that is horrible."

I would probably approach it by reversing the situation.

Something like "Well, what if Angus was visiting, and Dale saw you laughing at something Angus said, and he got upset and stomped out when you said you thought he was funny/smart/handsome whatever in response to some questions? Angus is a funny guy, I mean, his job is to be funny. And he's good-looking, and he is pretty smart."

True, and the talking-it-through-and-being-reasonable part is important. I think it's just important not to suppress or bottle up feelings in favour of being reasonable (which puts you in the 'cool girl' situation)--that it's healthy to let it out in a controlled environment and talk about it and be honest, and have someone acknowledge you and validate you. Which is why, when you mention Marigold being self-absorbed below (and I agree, it's one of her faults), I think she'd benefit from seeing a therapist who can validate her feelings and talk to her about her behaviour from a neutral point of view.

(Honestly, I think everybody would benefit from seeing a therapist once in a while. We go to our doctors for physical checkups but we don't check up on our mental health?)
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #256 on: 24 Feb 2018, 10:30 »

Marigold. Foot. Mouth. Extraction method?

  • She realizes she made a mistake and apologizes.
        1 (2%)
  • She buries her head under the covers until Momo forces her to apologize.
        17 (33.3%)
  • She runs off and joins Hanners on her quest for self-fulfillment.
        2 (3.9%)
  • She stubbornly refuses to acknowledge she screwed up, shoe-leather-aftertaste be damned!
        15 (29.4%)
  • Purple Monkey Dishwashers.
        7 (13.7%)
  • Spathe Ham.
        4 (7.8%)
  • Something else.
        5 (9.8%)
Total Members Voted: 51

Intriguing choices, IMHO.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #257 on: 24 Feb 2018, 10:31 »

Tactically, you won't make good relationship decisions when the stress hormones are high. It takes an absolute minimum of  20 minutes of self-soothing to get back to normal and 30+ is more likely.

Adrenaline lets you sprint across a dark parking lot and break a bone without noticing it. Useful sometimes but that's not the mindset in which to discuss feelings sensitively.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #258 on: 24 Feb 2018, 10:55 »

The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

My wife compares their emotional and dramatic role to that of servants in 17th century French plays.

I was so in awe of her nerdhood that I didn't ask what she meant.

Aww. Bragging on your wife. Sweetest damned thing.

But I wish you had asked. Are the servants more rational because less emotional because less refined and sensitive?
« Last Edit: 24 Feb 2018, 16:38 by ckridge »
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #259 on: 24 Feb 2018, 13:16 »

I'll ask next chance I get.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #260 on: 24 Feb 2018, 13:41 »

This whole mess is all too familiar to me. Those two poor creatures should be incredibly glad they have Momo and May to deal with their crap.

Also, May is surprisingly emotionally intelligent when she applies herself.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #261 on: 24 Feb 2018, 14:31 »

The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

My wife compares their emotional and dramatic role to that of servants in 17th century French plays.

I was so in awe of her nerdhood that I didn't ask what she meant.

Aww. Bragging on his wife. Sweetest damned thing.

But I wish you had asked. Are the servants more rational because less emotional because less refined and sensitive?
It could also be a development of the 'clever slave' trope from Ancient Roman and Greek plays.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #262 on: 24 Feb 2018, 16:02 »

I am honestly baffled that "hey, check your emotions and try and make sure that they aren't controlling you" is getting blowback.

Sorry, didn't mean for my comment to be interpreted that way. I said I may be misinterpreting, and now I've read your further comments, I believe I was. Thanks for explaining.

Do people really think that becoming incredibly noticeably angry because your boyfriend is laughing at something an attractive female coworker said to him, at work, isn't a problem that needs to be worked on?

Of course people don't think that.

Seriously, I think that we are substantially in agreement. Sorry if I have been unclear on that point. Our only difference, really, is that I am confident that Marigold's jealousy issue (more fundamentally her self esteem issue) will be addressed in due course.

When she is made aware of how what she is doing is affecting others, she tends to do the right thing, she just doesn't tend to think from other people's perspective at all. And no one seems to be helping her see how what she is doing is affecting others.

I'm talking out of my backside, so I could be wrong, but my feeling is that this is something that can occur with insecure and introverted people. I have a tendency to be that way myself - it's something I've had to work on. Maybe that's why I empathise with Marigold.

This is where communication comes into play. Sorry to come back to it. Just remember communication isn't just expressing yourself properly. It's also listening. This, and leaving the conversation until calm (which she's already doing), is the best way for her to manage her emotions IMO.

Interesting. Someone awhile ago was asking why Jeph doesn't show why he likes Marigold so much. Instead all we see are these flaws. Doesn't make sense, right? Well, if it wasn't obvious before, maybe it is now that he's given her an exaggerated overbite and comment that he's "made her cuter".

She is his favourite because of her flaws.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #263 on: 24 Feb 2018, 17:13 »

Right, but I'm wondering if part of the reason she’s caught up in that set of feels is because Momo is reinforcing it.

Momo is like, “heck yeah Dale WOULD rather be with Emily, but she is unattainable, like a Mecha. It’s silly to be jealous of that.” Instead of “Dale actively pursued you for ages, has gone out of his way to be interested in the same things as you, and has been patient when you’ve been awkward. What would he have to do to prove he wants to be with you? Where are your insecurities coming from?”

Because Momo has been so good at getting Marigold to talk about feelings before, I feel like this convo as is reveals that Momo doesn’t necessarily believe Marigold is a catch on her own, and that Dale is in some way settling.

ETA: ...y’all my phone just posted this and I think I wrote it last night.... idk if that makes it a derail or a rerail lol



« Last Edit: 24 Feb 2018, 17:23 by Oenone »
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #264 on: 24 Feb 2018, 17:39 »

Momo is like, ďheck yeah Dale WOULD rather be with Emily, but she is unattainable, like a Mecha. Itís silly to be jealous of that.Ē

I've already mentioned that I disagree with this interpretation, so I won't go over it again. I'll just refer you to my previous comment on this topic (re: apples and oranges).
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #265 on: 24 Feb 2018, 17:47 »

Found it! I see what youíre saying. I disagree tho, because introducing the Mecha element made it more like different gradations of apples re quality and accessibility. Either way, Iím sure itíll make for great story ó Iím curious what Momo and May will recount to each other during their inevitable WTF!Humans check in.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #266 on: 24 Feb 2018, 17:48 »

The robots are acting as Hopalong Freud here.

My wife compares their emotional and dramatic role to that of servants in 17th century French plays.

I was so in awe of her nerdhood that I didn't ask what she meant.

Aww. Bragging on your wife. Sweetest damned thing.

But I wish you had asked. Are the servants more rational because less emotional because less refined and sensitive?

Quote from: my wife
I meant mostly that the relationships involving robots serve as counterpoint story lines to the human-to-human ones. It allows the dramatist (here, Jeff) to offer different perspectives on the same issues and the same characters, from those whose social standing and roles in the society are different enough to give them differing outlooks. Also, their brains function differently, which can be the case with some humans as well. He has done the same with certain human characters (e.g., Claire, Hannelore.)

In those old French comedies, yes, it's understood that the servants are less refined and sensitive, and much less educated, but as servants they're often aspiring to be more like their "betters" (hence, servant romances where a valet tries to use high-flown poetic language to woo a ladies' maid, offering great comedic potential.)  That's usually not the case with QC robots, but yes, the often-less-refined thing is.

In those plays, the servants are sometimes more rational because they tend to be more practical, although rationality isn't the strong suit in either comedy or drama--the best stories come from characters who run their lives from their emotions. Because of the servants' lower standing--the fact that nobody has to pay that much attention to what they say, they can comment on obvious things about the other characters and their situations that the upper-class characters are too polite to say. (This is true of plays from other cultures as well--there are many examples in Shakespeare.) In this connection, for QC think Pintsize or May.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #267 on: 24 Feb 2018, 17:54 »

Ok, IICIH's wife wins the nerdthrone. Everybody can go home now.
« Last Edit: 24 Feb 2018, 18:02 by Case »
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #268 on: 24 Feb 2018, 18:04 »

That's kind of beautiful. It opens up new ways of reading the strip. Thank you.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #269 on: 24 Feb 2018, 23:24 »

Found it! I see what youíre saying. I disagree tho, because introducing the Mecha element made it more like different gradations of apples re quality and accessibility.

Okay, yes, I see what you mean re Momo's speech. I was thinking of May's, but that's not what you were referring to.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #270 on: 25 Feb 2018, 00:29 »

Sorry for the double post.

So, I was listening to some music and decided to play the Coco soundtrack. When I came to the track titled Everyone Knows Juanita, I immediately thought of this thread. It's a short simple song that goes to the heart of the strange and ineffable nature of human attraction. It seemed relevant to this conversation, so here it is.

https://youtu.be/c8q-pzrEIPc
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #271 on: 25 Feb 2018, 01:01 »

Found it! I see what youíre saying. I disagree tho, because introducing the Mecha element made it more like different gradations of apples re quality and accessibility.

Okay, yes, I see what you mean re Momo's speech. I was thinking of May's, but that's not what you were referring to.

Hmmmh - I read it as another 'finish the comic on a punchline'-line. Way I read them, they're meant to be funny, not to be carefully inspected for deeper implications.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #272 on: 25 Feb 2018, 01:49 »

Yeah, well. It's What We Do Here (tm).
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #273 on: 25 Feb 2018, 06:55 »

Quote from: Case link=topic=34011.msg1400184#msg1400184 date=1519549316

Way I read them, they're meant to be funny, not to be carefully inspected for deeper implications.
[/quote

Both, of course.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #274 on: 25 Feb 2018, 07:23 »

The great thing about stories is that you can take them apart to see how they work and to look at them from all angles without hurting them, and they go right back together afterward.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #275 on: 25 Feb 2018, 08:31 »

She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Well yeah. Perfect characters are mind bogglingly tedious in fiction. In real life too I expect.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #276 on: 25 Feb 2018, 09:25 »

She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Well yeah. Perfect characters are mind bogglingly tedious in fiction. In real life too I expect.
Though, if handled correctly, they can be interesting. Mary Sue from the webcomic League of Redunt Superheroes for example.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #277 on: 25 Feb 2018, 10:09 »

She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Well yeah. Perfect characters are mind bogglingly tedious in fiction. In real life too I expect.
I get by.
« Last Edit: 25 Feb 2018, 15:10 by gopher »
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #278 on: 25 Feb 2018, 12:16 »

The great thing about stories is that you can take them apart to see how they work and to look at them from all angles without hurting them, and they go right back together afterward.

Not always. Bellisario would like a word with you.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #279 on: 25 Feb 2018, 13:11 »

"Don't examine this too closely" means "Don't examine this too closely while I am here." You can do whatever you want without the person who asked you not to examine it too closely not present. The story isn't actually part of them. They are attached to it, but only figuratively. The story itself doesn't care one way or another.

That said, the first task in reading a story is to find the point of view from which everything is perfect and the author is right. Not doing that is like standing too close to an Impressionist painting of trees and asserting loudly that you don't see anything but smudges. All you have done is establish that you don't know how to look at pictures. Your first job is always to find the right way to look at the work. Comic strips are simple enough that there are usually several ways to make them come out right, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.

Once you've done that, though, you are free. You can take the thing part with hatred, trying to find every bad impulse it expresses. You can take it apart with love, finding how it contains the whole world and its operating instructions too. You can take it apart with mockery, finding everything absurd and oddly proportioned in it. Each time you find a little bit more about it. If you have a really good story, every so often it blows up in your face while you are tinkering with it, knocking you ass over teakettle so that suddenly everything looks different. It is perverse pleasure, but substantial.
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #280 on: 25 Feb 2018, 14:10 »

Mr. Hodgson would like to talk to you about that, but his bosses didn't like him so they shot him into spa-aaace...
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #281 on: 25 Feb 2018, 15:14 »

Let me rephrase. I personally find that overanalysis can kill even the best stories.

That's just me. You, of course, are free to overanalyse to your heart's content, if you so choose.

She is his favourite because of her flaws.
Well yeah. Perfect characters are mind bogglingly tedious in fiction. In real life too I expect.
I get by.

ę Last Edit: Today at 08:10:54 by gopher Ľ

I appreciated the meta-humour. :D
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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #282 on: 25 Feb 2018, 19:15 »

Sorry for the double post.

So, I was listening to some music and decided to play the Coco soundtrack. When I came to the track titled Everyone Knows Juanita, I immediately thought of this thread. It's a short simple song that goes to the heart of the strange and ineffable nature of human attraction. It seemed relevant to this conversation, so here it is.

https://youtu.be/c8q-pzrEIPc
I knew I recognized that song title!
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I'm not up to anything shady. I just think that my government doesn't need to know every little thing I do.

Great comeback:
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Sorry, I haven't taken enough blows to the head for your argument to make sense.

JoeCovenant

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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #283 on: 26 Feb 2018, 03:15 »

Let me rephrase. I personally find that overanalysis can kill even the best stories.


ALL the way, this!

There's a well loved poster on Willis' oeuvre who dissects each panel to the Nth degree.
Al lot of people who post there "say" they like that.

Me? I blip right past them.



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Covenant
A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands

Cornelius

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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #284 on: 26 Feb 2018, 03:36 »

Just about lesson one in narratology: your interpretation is your own, no matter how much you may think that's what the author meant.
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Thrudd

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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #285 on: 27 Feb 2018, 08:55 »

With respect to that Venn diagram on just how much a teacher can get something wrong - My little brother took a course in uni and the prof was failing a certain mature student who was argumentative about key points on the subject matter until mud terms. The story goes that the student went to the dean to complain about the prof and how they were getting the course material completely wrong. The dean was fully supportive of the prof until the student put the course text on his desk and asked him if the prof wrote the book. In a comedy film there would be the sound effects of grinding gears and screeching tires. - Why yes this mature student was the author of the book and his picture was on the back of the dust jacket -  The gentleman in question did not have the appropriate degree for his position under government contract so his company sponsored his return to school to keep the bureaucrats happy. - I think the former prof is now selling real-estate  :roll:
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A good pun is it's own reword.
There is a difference between spare parts, extra parts and left over parts.

The Venn diagram  for Common Sense and Good Sense has very little, if any, overlap.

JoeCovenant

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Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #286 on: 27 Feb 2018, 09:00 »

With respect to that Venn diagram on just how much a teacher can get something wrong - My little brother took a course in uni and the prof was failing a certain mature student who was argumentative about key points on the subject matter until mud terms. The story goes that the student went to the dean to complain about the prof and how they were getting the course material completely wrong. The dean was fully supportive of the prof until the student put the course text on his desk and asked him if the prof wrote the book. In a comedy film there would be the sound effects of grinding gears and screeching tires. - Why yes this mature student was the author of the book and his picture was on the back of the dust jacket -  The gentleman in question did not have the appropriate degree for his position under government contract so his company sponsored his return to school to keep the bureaucrats happy. - I think the former prof is now selling real-estate  :roll:

"Wouldn't it be great if real life were like that...?"

(Two Woody Allen quotes in as many weeks? People'll start talking about me!)
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Covenant
A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands
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