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Star Wars 9
TheEvilDog:
Pretty much. If you watch The Phantom Menace, the Jedi Council say that it won't train Anakin because he's nine years old. They admit he's strong in the Force, he's just far too old to undergo training.
Bear in mind that this is a kid who was a phenomenal pilot, that's something that's thought to be connected to the Force, heightened reflexes and all that. He was also a skilled engineer, having built C-3PO from scraps.
Luke was an exceptional bush pilot and mechanic on one of the most inhospitable planets in the galaxy.
Rey was a scavenger on a planet fraught with danger, was a good pilot and mechanic. She's almost the one who had to defend her from other scavengers for most of her life, less a fighter, more a brawler in style.
Its quite possibly that Force Sensitives manifest their ability in their mechanical and piloting abilities, as all three protagonists were uneducated and informally trained before they were discovered. So its quite possibly that their ability in learning to fight is an extension of that natural ability to grasp and learn new ideas.
JoeCovenant:
--- Quote from: Tova on 29 Nov 2019, 13:08 ---
--- Quote from: JoeCovenant on 29 Nov 2019, 06:37 ---
--- Quote from: Tova on 29 Nov 2019, 05:33 ---
--- Quote from: JoeCovenant on 29 Nov 2019, 04:28 ---Anyway... THAT is why "Us Star Wars fans" are of the opinion that it's a totally false comparison to even attempt to give Luke and Rey the same "neither of them had any training" backstory. Luke did... lot's of it... and we always knew he did.
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No, we didn't. That's what I'm saying.
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You may not have.
Others did. (Us "hardcore fans" as you put it ;) )
--- End quote ---
Yes. I know.
I am perhaps not explaining myself to you clearly.
Two films contain similar plot holes. One, you scrabble to explain. The other, you dismiss as "Bad Storytelling."
Maybe in the future, there will be enough books added to the canon to fill the plot holes in your head for you. Or maybe not, if you don't want them to.
--- End quote ---
So examples of precisely why those plot holes are not the same at all aren't enough for you?
Okay, then.
Tova:
Headcanon examples are not, no.
JoeCovenant:
--- Quote from: Tova on 03 Dec 2019, 04:37 ---Headcanon examples are not, no.
--- End quote ---
And if I had only been using headcanon, I would agree with you.
Hell - if I was even only using Old School Extended Universe prior to the Disney Purge, you'd have a point...
(Luke pulling a Star Destroyer out of orbit for E.G.)
But surely you can't deny that Luke's journey was one of tentative first steps into the force (aboard the Falcon, having been zapped a few times by a flying remote) and taking his "first steps into a larger world". Which was followed by near catastrophe (getting trapped in the detention block and saved by Leia, and later almost killing himself on the death star run), to making a torpedo shot which not only had he already said was something he'd been able to do (womp rats) but was also something that Gold leader himself almost did) - hence, hardly miraculous - BUT still had Obi Wan whispering in his ear, but enough to show him on the true start of his voyage. ("The force will be with you, always.")
To personal growth in his Jedi skills (sketchy force pull for his lightsabre on Hoth - after almost getting killed by a Wampa), then saved from freezing by Han. To an indistinct, but implied decent, amount of time training under the 'greatest' of all Jedi masters - which shows him unable to lift an x-wing, but let's us see him carefully able to lift a stone or two (and artoo) - culminating in his own emotions leaving him open to the most horrific failure against Vader by facing him "too soon" and getting the over-loving tar kicked out of him (and losing a hand), with Vader barely having to lift his sabre to do so. (Although Luke gets a shot in!)
Which leads to still more growth over the 3 YEARS that followed, and even THEN facing failures by being out manoeuvred by the Emperor, by allowing Vader to know Leia was his sister, and only managing to "defeat" a rusty cyborg by flirting with the dark side - (you might argue *that* is head-canon, but I think the intent is VERY clear in the shot style, lead-up and music choice) - to eventually be saved from certain death at Palpatine's hands (literally!) by that same rusty cyborg.
Whereas... What failures did Rey undergo?
The second we see her in danger she holds every key required to escape and receives barely a scratch for her troubles.
She can pilot a correlian cruiser sight unseen, and evade TIE pilots who have been trained in such. She IS taken prisoner by Kylo, but then manages to resist his mind probes with no training and can MIND CONTROL a stormptrooper. She can stand toe to toe against the most powerful Force User we've ever seen on screen (blaster bolt freeze) who has been trained (one can only assume from birth) by Luke himself, and also later in life by Snoke!, after having a lightsabre for .. what.. two minutes (yes, yes - snarky, I know).. she can also fight off multiple enemies at once (those enemies being Snokes personal bodyguards!!) using a weapon she has virtually training with other than training for half an hour (snark) against a static boulder, and even manages to hold Kylo to a 'draw' in a force tug-of war. (And a Force-Push of war!)
(WAIT! EDIT! She does get thrown about by Snoke a couple of times... for effect.)
And then there's TLJ's flying rocks.
Basically, after a matter of days she is seen to be showing greater powers than ANY we have seen by any other Jedi Master.
Luke's journey was mapped out as a classical heroes is, (basically) knowledge, learning, growth, defeat, rebirth and triumph.
Rey's has been... Triumph, Triumph, Triumph, Search for Learning and rejection of it, Triumph.
None of this is headcanon, Tova - it's all on screen.
Like I said in a previous post, at LEAST at the end of TLJ they left a crumb of hope for any further powers she may 'attain' in RoS by having her be in ownership of the old Jedi texts (and at LEAST a year having passed between those two movies according to Disney's timeline) ... but they should have done that when she was given Luke's sabre in TFA.
(Edited for spelling and adding one moment of "failure" for Rey)
Case:
--- Quote from: Theta9 on 29 Nov 2019, 07:39 ---
--- Quote from: Case on 28 Nov 2019, 08:10 ---
--- Quote from: BenRG on 03 Nov 2019, 09:34 ---It's a nice snark but, to me, the 'Balance' was always an issue of the extreme nature of both side's views: Absolute Light vs Absolute Dark. There has to be some kind of third path. Some controversial Jedi, like Qui-Gon were trying to find it.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Theta9 on 03 Nov 2019, 10:29 ---I'm curious as to how Yoda and the council were "toxic".
--- End quote ---
I couldn't support the point without essentially copy-pasting the better part of several interlocking EU-trilogies....
--- End quote ---
The books are not canon. Only the recent Aftermath trilogy is canon, bridging the gap between eps 6 and 7. Not even Zahn's excellent Thrawn trilogy, a better Episode 7 than The Force Awakens could aspire to be, is canon since the new films started coming out.
--- End quote ---
I know they aren't canon any more - I'm referring to the fact that they were once very much considered part of canon, back when Lucas Arts still ruled on that ('afaics'. 'IIRC'. etc.etc.).
TL;DR - BenRG didn't just conjure something up from his behind here, ideas very similar to the one he presented were explored in several rather successful novels (iirc, the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi cycles) that were parts of the old LucasArts canon (what is now considered 'Legends').
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