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$1,001-$5,000

9 (18.4%)

$5,001-$10,000

9 (18.4%)

$10,001-$50,000

8 (16.3%)

$50,001-$100,000

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2 (4.1%)

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5 (10.2%)

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Sven is Not a Mooch

7 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Voting closed: 01 Aug 2020, 18:29

[ZoeB]

I can totally identify with May's reaction to significant, concrete and unexpected acts of kindness.
I'm the same way. And I've had many of them, so many you think I'd get used to them.
Nope. Still collapse into a blubbering mess.

[N.N. Marf]

Was Marten's anger appropriate?

I think it was. Marten actually addresses that in panel three of this comic. He shouldn't have had to encrypt anything, because he told Dora not to look, but she did anyway, and that's what led to the breakup.

I'm familiar with that page---it doesn't address the appropriateness of Marten's anger. Marten having encrypted his data would not have precluded Dora's attempt to invade Marten's privacy, but that's as contemptible. The fact that an unauthorized person can look at the data if it's not encrypted is the exact reason to encrypt it. How much was his anger enhanced by the Dora having some of his private data? But that question won't get us closer to knowing whether Marten's anger was appropriate. Was there a response that could get to the same result, without the unnecessary pathos? If so, Marten has anger management problems. Sure, his anger management problems are pretty slight---he's quite a chill dude---but this riled him up.
In his place, I might get angry, too. That emotion might come up. But, in his place, I'd rather not get angry; instead, simply ending the relationship. (I mean entirely. Dora would become no more than a person behind the counter of a café I go to sometimes.)

[Farideh]

<-- snipped for sanity -->

Your opinion about there being only one possible right opinion is wrong. Good heated arguments breed mutual understanding.

Hi ho.

<-- snipped for sanity -->

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that there was "only one possible right opinion". What I meant was that in situations like this, where everyone has their own interpretation of what some comic means, it tends to devolve into "I must convince you why my opinion is the right one, because X Y Z". Then the other party comes back with: "No, your interpretation is wrong, because A B C". It's an interpretation. It's personal and based on a person's own experiences. Thus, to them, it cannot be wrong, but that doesn't mean that it's also the right one for others. By all means, explain what some comic means to you, but don't force that opinion upon others.

I hope this makes sense. It all sounds fine in my head, but it tends to come out as a garbled mess when I try to put it into words.

[pwhodges]

But, in his place, I'd rather not get angry; instead, simply ending the relationship. (I mean entirely. Dora would become no more than a person behind the counter of a café I go to sometimes.)

You make it sound easy; but for established relationships it's really not like that - they can't simply be turned on or off like a switch.

[Cornelius]

Was Marten's anger appropriate?

I think it was. Marten actually addresses that in panel three of this comic. He shouldn't have had to encrypt anything, because he told Dora not to look, but she did anyway, and that's what led to the breakup.

I'm familiar with that page---it doesn't address the appropriateness of Marten's anger. Marten having encrypted his data would not have precluded Dora's attempt to invade Marten's privacy, but that's as contemptible. The fact that an unauthorized person can look at the data if it's not encrypted is the exact reason to encrypt it. How much was his anger enhanced by the Dora having some of his private data? But that question won't get us closer to knowing whether Marten's anger was appropriate. Was there a response that could get to the same result, without the unnecessary pathos? If so, Marten has anger management problems. Sure, his anger management problems are pretty slight---he's quite a chill dude---but this riled him up.
In his place, I might get angry, too. That emotion might come up. But, in his place, I'd rather not get angry; instead, simply ending the relationship. (I mean entirely. Dora would become no more than a person behind the counter of a café I go to sometimes.)

I was going to reply to this, but any discussion about appropriateness of anger, and how they broke up, would mean looking at all that was mentioned on that page, and I'm sure the Dorapocalypse already takes up too much space in this forum.

[chris73]

In his place, I might get angry, too. That emotion might come up. But, in his place, I'd rather not get angry; instead, simply ending the relationship. (I mean entirely. Dora would become no more than a person behind the counter of a café I go to sometimes.)

Yeah he had every right to be angry but the best thing for Marten would be if Clare gets a job offer in another location and Marten follows her, not because I want to see them leave but because Marten is far too comfortable in his present situation and, unfortunately, he needs a spur to change

[de_la_Nae]

Sometimes I wonder how many of the fans of this comic are the working poor.

Maybe as someone who's spent most of her life in, among, and as one, communication styles like May strike me as a lot less 'crass', which sometimes seems to be the cardinal sin of whether someone is allowable to this crowd, see Pintsize, Yelling Bird, May, etc. Since violence and repression doesn't seem to bug the majority of the fans the majority of the time over the years, see Faye, Emily, Bubbles, Momo, Marten, so on and so forth.

disclaimer: this is something i've mostly kept to myself for years now, though a couple others around here know I've mused about it. This thread isn't all to blame for any means, of me bringing it up. Just.... thinking out loud, of a sorts.

i'd love to know sitnspin's take, as someone else i know has significant experience in and among rough folks. more than me, anyway, though i've known my share of felons and so forth, not all of them for non-violent offenses.

[de_la_Nae]

i should note that i'm not all-seeing either. i just... occasionally see things here. on other social sites. and Jeph's own framing and commentary, at times, around his work. i'd argue he's shared in it too, but y'know, it's a little murkier with the one who actually creates the 'crass' people

[sitnspin]

I do notice a lot of righteous indignation hurled at characters for not making the perfect and most appropriate response to stressful situations. As if everyone should be expected to perfectly collected and rational at all times. As if real people aren't a hot mess of emotions and irrationality.

As someone who kinda shares May's sense of humour and colourful verbiage and is closely associated with a lot of other people who do as well, I don't understand the magnitude of the hate she gets from certain members of the audience.

[Is it cold in here?]

It is easy, right or wrong, to read her communication choices as reflecting contempt for those around her.

The Gottman research on relationships found contempt to be toxic and death to relationships.

Anyone who has lived with someone contemptuous is going to react to May. Does the name "Pavlov" ring a bell?

[Reaver]

It is easy, right or wrong, to read her communication choices as reflecting contempt for those around her.

The Gottman research on relationships found contempt to be toxic and death to relationships.

Anyone who has lived with someone contemptuous is going to react to May. Does the name "Pavlov" ring a bell?

Why'd I just start drooling everywhere? D8

[Gnabberwocky]

Was Marten's anger appropriate?

I think it was. Marten actually addresses that in panel three of this comic. He shouldn't have had to encrypt anything, because he told Dora not to look, but she did anyway, and that's what led to the breakup.

I'm familiar with that page---it doesn't address the appropriateness of Marten's anger. Marten having encrypted his data would not have precluded Dora's attempt to invade Marten's privacy, but that's as contemptible. The fact that an unauthorized person can look at the data if it's not encrypted is the exact reason to encrypt it. How much was his anger enhanced by the Dora having some of his private data? But that question won't get us closer to knowing whether Marten's anger was appropriate. Was there a response that could get to the same result, without the unnecessary pathos? If so, Marten has anger management problems. Sure, his anger management problems are pretty slight---he's quite a chill dude---but this riled him up.
In his place, I might get angry, too. That emotion might come up. But, in his place, I'd rather not get angry; instead, simply ending the relationship. (I mean entirely. Dora would become no more than a person behind the counter of a café I go to sometimes.)

I'm sensing that people are sick and tired of this argument, so this will be my last post on this front.

Until that last fight, Marten had done nearly everything right. Almost every previous conflict they'd had was set up by Dora and always ended up with Marten finding a way to calm her down or Dora having guilt feelings. It's likely that yes, there was a better way for Marten to handle that, but in a heated situation with the full pressure of a strained relationship on his shoulders, I think he reacted about as expected. This is an odd analogy, but imagine you're being pushed around and taunted every week for a year by the same person. Eventually, you give up and punch them. That's not the best, most levelheaded thing to do, but it's appropriate within the situation and they deserved it.

(Just so you know, if you post a response to this, I won't answer. It's not because I don't like you, it's because this argument has been going on for too long and we're saying the same things over and over again.)

[jwhouk]

Oh, wait - this is the Breakup Thread argument all over again, isn't it?

Don't do that. I have a streak of threads started since then that haven't been locked due to argument levels.

Bottom line is that Dora screwed that relationship up and Marten moved on. Things are Better Now.

[Tova]

Yes, if it feels like people are sick and tired of that argument, then that is the reason. It has reappeared many times in these threads, and tends to produce more heat than light.

BTW the common assertion that "Marten is the comic's punching bag" may or may not emotionally feel true to you, dear Reader, but it implies rather strongly that only bad things happen to Marten, or all of the bad things that happen in the comic (or at least the vast majority) happen only to Marten. Neither of those ring true to me. Maybe at one time? But not now.

[Gnabberwocky]

Comic has arrived.

The whole point of the drive was so that May could get a new body, and I think that's at least where the majority of the funds should go, but May brings up a couple interesting points. Does someone else need it more than she does? Almost certainly, but May too is in a shitty situation and should be able to escape it. Does she "deserve" it? No more than a privileged child "deserves" a birthday present, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't get it.

Also, is that the reason she was so averse to the charity drive from the start because she felt she didn't deserve it? If that's the case, I think she needs a therapist, because she has some deep-seated self-worth problems.

[jwhouk]

1. She can't handle the fact that people do want to help her. Yes, that is a huge issue that she may need to address in short order.

2. Momo has every right to go Super Saiyan on her.

[ZoeB]

I can totally identify with May's reaction to significant, concrete and unexpected acts of kindness.
I'm the same way. And I've had many of them, so many you think I'd get used to them.
Nope. Still collapse into a blubbering mess.

...and..Maybe I need a Momo to tell me that I'm deserving too. Ok, I am, but there are soooo many who, whether they deserve it or not ( a judgment beyond my pay grade), *need* it more.

Every day, every single day, I get PMs or emails from them, all over the world. The easy cases can be solved with trivial amounts of money, or even just information and contacts, but most need emotional support, and that can be heartbreaking. So much injustice. So much hurt. So much courage.

Meh. I volunteered for this, no one is twisting my arm, so no complaints. Whether I deserve the opportunity to vent to a sympathetic audience or not, I have one, so am using it. I'd be silly not to, as long as I don't take it for granted. It's a gift I appreciate. Thanks.

Jeph has real insight. Not into me as such, but in those like me. Those like May. Those like Momo too.

[shanejayell]

Is it at all surprising that a former con working at the local version of a 7-11 for minimum wage has self esteem issues? Poor May tho.

I forgot Momo has tasers. *lol*

[Farideh]

Oh May.

OF COURSE there are other people that need the money. OF COURSE there are other people that are more deserving. That doesn't automatically make you unworthy, though!

I second the opinions above: May needs a therapist, pronto.

[Tova]

That last panel needs a electrical sound effect and an orchestral score.

[Baz_Yat]

I second the comment that the last panel needs an electrical sound effect and THAT orchestral score.

I also second the many comments that May needs help.

[Is it cold in here?]

Jeph is a good enough writer that he's not going to paint one party in a breakup as having done everything right.

For people who have joined since, the "Dorapocalypse" refers to the worst flame war I have seen since starting on Usenet in 1983, which came THAT close to getting the forum shut down. The current moderation team has the charter of making sure it never happens again.

[Tyr]

Oh May.

OF COURSE there are other people that need the money. OF COURSE there are other people that are more deserving. That doesn't automatically make you unworthy, though!

I second the opinions above: May needs a therapist, pronto.

I agree that May needs therapy pronto... because she's finally in a space where she'll actually maybe actually internalize some things. She's been blowing off the group therapy while still attending the sessions, she's slowly been inching towards a moment, and it just happened. There's something a therapist can hold up and say "While Generosity is a GOOD impulse, in this case it is fueled by your self-hatred. You are allowed to be kind to yourself."

or, y'know... whatever an actual licensed therapist would say there.

[Sorflakne]

Sometimes I wonder how many of the fans of this comic are the working poor.

Maybe as someone who's spent most of her life in, among, and as one, communication styles like May strike me as a lot less 'crass', which sometimes seems to be the cardinal sin of whether someone is allowable to this crowd, see Pintsize, Yelling Bird, May, etc. Since violence and repression doesn't seem to bug the majority of the fans the majority of the time over the years, see Faye, Emily, Bubbles, Momo, Marten, so on and so forth.

disclaimer: this is something i've mostly kept to myself for years now, though a couple others around here know I've mused about it. This thread isn't all to blame for any means, of me bringing it up. Just.... thinking out loud, of a sorts.

I like May because she doesn't beat around the bush and isn't afraid to speak her mind.  She has a code of ethics and morality which has been largely consistent over the years, and much as she doesn't want to admit it, she cares about her friends and wants the best for them.  I don't see her as crass, I just see her as someone who has looser filters. 

[Gnabberwocky]

She needs a therapist who can talk back to her. I get the feeling that May wouldn't be kind to someone who was deeply analyzing her feelings (see 3579), at least not in the traditional warm-and-fuzzy sense. Any therapist dealing with her would have to be quick-witted and very, very good at their job.

[BenRG]

We all need a best friend like Momo sometimes!

I suspect that, if May is still going to the therapy sessions, at the next one, she's going to say something like: "This week, I learned that I have good friends who will sacrifice to help me. That frightens me because I don't know why they'd do that and I'm scared that I'll let them down!" Then, after some evasion, she'll list all the ways her friends annoy her, how much she treasures this and how much she loves them. Basically why, in the end, she'd prefer to fight to keep them, no matter how hard it is.

That's where her arc needs to go: To realise that she's loved and is allowed to love in return. Also to realise one or both parties will be annoying or will screw up on occasion. The determination of whether the friendship is strong will be if both parties are determined to rebuild afterwards.

I also wonder what a word association exercise might reveal!

[Carl-E]

Nice to see Momo hasn't lost her touch.  I was trying to find the first time she used her "shock and awe" abilities, when she fried Marigold's computer, but my archive-fu is rusty. 

[Farideh]

Nice to see Momo hasn't lost her touch.  I was trying to find the first time she used her "shock and awe" abilities, when she fried Marigold's computer, but my archive-fu is rusty.

Here you go

[Carl-E]

"You're grounded"


...not very well, apparently.


 


On a different note, would this whole "I'm not worthy" thing of May's be considered a version of imposter syndrome?

[Tova]

Whatever it is, it's kind of the opposite. She's been categorised as just an ex-con, and she believes she fits the label perfectly.

[Cornelius]

Hmm, considering the state of May's chassis, I'm not sure Momo's reaction is exactly safe...

[de_la_Nae]

Is it any wonder? She knows what she's done, running the numbers while being The Wrong Sort, and what her society has relegated her to for it. Has condemned her to. Is it any wonder that she's internalized some of that?

And has she 'earned' it, triumphantly thrown it in the face of her foes and adversity alike? No. She's been given it. Outside powers took her dreams and her freedom, and now outside powers threaten to restore some of them. Is it any wonder that she flinches in her powerlessness?

And have you ever known the terrors of sudden hope?

this is a Good Thing, but like... i get it, at least some.

[TRenn]

That last panel needs a electrical sound effect and an orchestral score.

(click to show/hide)

[/spoiler]

Perhaps we could combine the two: Play the score on Tesla coils.

[Baz_Yat]

And have you ever known the terrors of sudden hope?

Yes. And I do unerstand May's fear. Sudden hope triggers so many feelings, including "What if it's just a trick?" that.... yeah.

[Tova]

Hope is a dangerous thing.

[ihaveavoice]

I do notice a lot of righteous indignation hurled at characters for not making the perfect and most appropriate response to stressful situations. As if everyone should be expected to perfectly collected and rational at all times. As if real people aren't a hot mess of emotions and irrationality.

As someone who kinda shares May's sense of humour and colourful verbiage and is closely associated with a lot of other people who do as well, I don't understand the magnitude of the hate she gets from certain members of the audience.

S A M E. As someone who doesn't share May's communication style at all and if anything is more like Momo in the sense of being seen as generally calm/polite, I've often felt confused by the comments I'll see from some posters expecting the worst from May by default. She basically has her own special dialect of sentences broken up by constant swear words in frequently gross combinations and tends to be surly and brusque the moment she gets uncomfortable, but we've seen her heart so many times. We've seen her care for these people, and sometimes take care of them. Even her grumpy retorts are so often unconvincing attempts to hide her affection for her friends, who can clearly tell! We also know that she values the rights and well-being of other disenfranchised AI over her own, and that she's so touched that Roko is willing to go out on a limb for her that she's always been cool with (and frankly expected) failure as an outcome to this quest for a better chassis, and we know these things because the comic has shown them to us multiple times. Sure, dislike her if you want - I certainly understand finding aspects of her dialogue off-putting. But some of the commentary goes beyond that to assuming motivations of her that just make zero sense with the character we've been shown. It's like her outside colors over her inside for some readers. It makes me feel like I'm reading a completely different comic sometimes.

[dutchrvl]

I am greatly ehm...enjoying? maybe appreciating? the current arc, and happy that May is finally getting to a place where she can hopefully really start addressing her selfworth/esteem issues that have been apparent almost from the moment she was introduced to us.

And yay for Momo

Also another great reminder of the fact that in most (perhaps all even?) societies convicts, regardless of the crime and length of imprisonment, are basically given lifetime sentences. We can argue all day long about our own ideas regarding "appropriate" sentences, but in my simple mind anyone who has lawfully served their time should have a real chance to restart their life with most/all opportunities others have, otherwise what's the point.

[sitnspin]

The penal system was never designed to be reformative, it has always been purely punitive in its intent.

[Thrudd]

The penal system was never designed to be reformative, it has always been purely punitive in its intent.

For the states that is very true and you can add "profit centre" to the list of things it is designed to be.

Fortunately for those in other parts of the world, like the Nordic countries, education as well as medical and psychological treatment are part of the "keep them away from everyone else for a time".

[dutchrvl]

As Thrudd mentioned, the penal systems in other countries are not designed to be purely punitive, beside the nordic countries this is true for the Netherlands also. Definitely not designed to be purely punitive and not for-profit either.

That said, unfortunately for many ex-convicts, even in those countries often it still constitutes a lifelong sentence at least to some extent. I'm sure some people are okay with that for certain crimes, but the principle still stands that if by law you get convicted for a certain time, you should be able to start over afterwards without perpetual further punishment. If we want the latter for certain crimes than the law should be changed.

[Perfectly Reasonable]

But last time we saw electro-scary Momo, she was in her chibi chassis. With eels. Doubt that's a standard feature.

Looks like May's new body will be a couple of notches better than utility grade or standard civilian. Will we get to see her pick it out? Will we meet Charlotte again? Will it have a butt emblem?

[BenRG]

But last time we saw electro-scary Momo, she was in her chibi chassis. With eels. Doubt that's a standard feature.

There have a been a few cases with Momo in her anthropomimetic chassis. One that jumps to mind is where Momo actually knocked May off-line with a direct taser strike for teasing her about Sven. I think that there have been other occasions too.

Looks like May's new body will be a couple of notches better than utility grade or standard civilian. Will we get to see her pick it out? Will we meet Charlotte again? Will it have a butt emblem?[/quote]

My favoured idea is for May's chassis to go into an uncontrolled downward spiral that forces Faye and Bubbles to shut her down before the chassis failures imperil the stability of her AI drive.. Because of that (and the fact that, whilst there is money, there isn't enough for a 'buyer's choice' scenario) means that May doesn't fully know what her new body looks like until she wakes up in it. That way, Jeph can keep it as a surprise from us too.

[pwhodges]

Momo's channelling Killua, it seems...

(click to show/hide)

[Is it cold in here?]

Momo also found a need to shock Clinton when he was disregarding her consent.

[Farideh]

She also shocked Emily (although it isn't shown)

[Gnabberwocky]

We all need a best friend like Momo sometimes!

I suspect that, if May is still going to the therapy sessions, at the next one, she's going to say something like: "This week, I learned that I have good friends who will sacrifice to help me. That frightens me because I don't know why they'd do that and I'm scared that I'll let them down!" Then, after some evasion, she'll list all the ways her friends annoy her, how much she treasures this and how much she loves them. Basically why, in the end, she'd prefer to fight to keep them, no matter how hard it is.

That's where her arc needs to go: To realise that she's loved and is allowed to love in return. Also to realise one or both parties will be annoying or will screw up on occasion. The determination of whether the friendship is strong will be if both parties are determined to rebuild afterwards.

I also wonder what a word association exercise might reveal!

I think May absolutely feels that way, but her actual response would be more like:

"Ugh, my turn? Fine. So it basically looks like things might not be as horrible as they should be, because my friends are okay, I guess, but it's fuckin' weird. Like, everything has been totally shitty for the last year, but for some reason, these people think I should have all this money? I guess that's a good thing, but I don't fuckin' need this more than some starving kid. And what if I fuck it up again? I'm already a shitty person; I don't need to screw everything up again."

Poor May. I hope she can realize she's allowed to open up and have good things in life.

[Case]

Oh, wait - this is the Breakup Thread argument all over again, isn't it?

I joined right after. That was almost a decade ago.

The only real reason to commemorate that inane thread is because it led to Paul becoming mod.

[Case]

"Bzzzzt! YES YOU DO! Bzzzzt!"

Aversion therapy as it was meant to be ...

[shanejayell]

Hmm, considering the state of May's chassis, I'm not sure Momo's reaction is exactly safe...

New strip up!

*POP*

Yes, you were right, Cornelius, if not for the reason you thought. *lol*

[Gnabberwocky]

That might be the most outwardly kind and honest reaction we've seen from May. Is that a permanent change to her personality, do you think, or will she go back to being prickly after she gets the new body?

(I know lots of people were frustrated with the hate May was getting, so I just want to clarify there's no shame in that. She can act however she wants to/is compelled to.)