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[sp2]

Also even if they purposely attempted to get a certain sound, just because it fits into an existing genre does not make them sell outs.

No.  What makes them sellouts is that they had already crafted a sound when money wasn't a part of the picture, and they were doing it for fun.  And that sound was distortion and feedback heavy avant rock.  Then they changed that sound entirely and played something that was the opposite of pretty much everything they had done previously.  There was no slow evolution into this new sound.  It just happened an album or two ago.  Maybe you're right and they decided, "oh, we're sick of this, let's do something nice and calm and all that jazz" but it seems suspicious to me that all of a sudden they change right when the indie sound became a moneymaker.

Crafting a sound that falls within an existing genre is not selling out, but changing an existing sound that you did because you enjoyed it into a stereotypical and relatively soulless simulacrum of an existing style because that's where the money is, yeah, that's selling out.

[ASturge]

I hate it when people say 'God, I'm allowed my own opinion!"

I generally say

"er.....no, no you dont."

[Not An Addict]

And, "No, because your opinion is wrong."

[Spike]

There are some situations where I act like a complete elitist ass, but I make sure it's obvious that I am only kidding.  That always tends to work because people just kind of laugh and go "Well ok, maybe that's true."  Humor is a wonderful thing.

[Kanno]

This board (the music section at least) also revolves predominantly around Indie Culture (and seriously guys, we need to step up our efforts to get these metal heads the fuck out).

You are completely right about the metal heads, I mean christ, don't they know that their scene is dead?

Time to hang up the KISS masks people!

[Kai]

...KISS is metal? Also, I'd argue about the metal scene being dead, but I need to do more important things. like "ROCKIN OUT LOLLERSKATES"

[Signum_Tenebrae]

Psh. Death Cult Armageddon may have sucked, but Stormblast Dimmu rocked my effing socks off.

You speak the truth!

Let's not forget about For All Tid either.

[Sideways]

Elitism is indicative of immaturity and insecurity.

My movie tastes are better than yours...

My music tastes are better than yours...

My God is better than yours...

Such bullshit.

Stuff I listen to:

Radiohead
The Beatles
Modest Mouse
Autechre
Hot Hot Heat
Roy Orbison
Audioslave
Foo Fighters
Dire Straits
Everlast
Sigur Ros
-snip-

Do I give two shits about being the snobbiest music-fan?  Obviously not!

Why would you deprive yourself of something you may enjoy, just because people in your retarded little 'scene' may think it's too popular.

These people need to (and will some day, hopefully) grow up.

[ASturge]

Well....

I like mocking other's tastes.

Am I to deprive myself of that particular joy?

My mentality is, I'm going to mock your taste, feel free to mock mine back.

[Sideways]

Do you mock other's religions?

My point (that I think you missed) was; Mocking another person's tastes/choices/etc is taking the stance that YOUR own tastes/choices/etc are superior.

They're not.

Sorry ASturge, but your tastes aren't superior to anyone else's.

They just happen to be your tastes.

[Signum_Tenebrae]

This board (the music section at least) also revolves predominantly around Indie Culture (and seriously guys, we need to step up our efforts to get these metal heads the fuck out).

You are completely right about the metal heads, I mean christ, don't they know that their scene is dead?

Time to hang up the KISS masks people!

The metal "scene" isn't really dead, unfortunately.  There are all these new metalcore crap bands getting pretty popular here in America.

A few years ago the metal scene was as dead as it should be.  It needs to go back to that way!

[yipjumpmusic]

Also even if they purposely attempted to get a certain sound, just because it fits into an existing genre does not make them sell outs.

No.  What makes them sellouts is that they had already crafted a sound when money wasn't a part of the picture, and they were doing it for fun.  And that sound was distortion and feedback heavy avant rock.  Then they changed that sound entirely and played something that was the opposite of pretty much everything they had done previously.  There was no slow evolution into this new sound.  It just happened an album or two ago.  Maybe you're right and they decided, "oh, we're sick of this, let's do something nice and calm and all that jazz" but it seems suspicious to me that all of a sudden they change right when the indie sound became a moneymaker.

Crafting a sound that falls within an existing genre is not selling out, but changing an existing sound that you did because you enjoyed it into a stereotypical and relatively soulless simulacrum of an existing style because that's where the money is, yeah, that's selling out.

Hmm sorry but all I see here is admitting you might be wrong and still no proof to back up your arguement.

[Valrus]

Do you mock other's religions?

Point the First: Is this really a legitimate comparison? If so, I think maybe you need to take your music a little less seriously.
Point the Second: Yes, just not to peoples' faces.

My point (that I think you missed) was; Mocking another person's tastes/choices/etc is taking the stance that YOUR own tastes/choices/etc are superior.

I agree that the two might be correlated, but you don't have to believe that your choice is superior to someone else's to mock it. You just have to not like it. And inviting mockery of your own tastes is hardly setting yourself up as the Superior Being.

Meh!

[sp2]

yipjump: the only way to know for certain if a band sold out is if you ask them and they say "Oh, yeah, definitely, we sold out.  We like money more than music."  However, a sudden change in music, especially when it comes simultaneously with a change in label (Blonde Redhead moved to 4AD at the same time as this sudden change in sound) is suspect, especially when these both coincide with a sudden popularity of a particular style.  Anything's possible, and it could all be a big coincidence, but Occam's Razor suggests they sold out.

Sideways: I mock religions.  Incessantly.

[Kanno]

This board (the music section at least) also revolves predominantly around Indie Culture (and seriously guys, we need to step up our efforts to get these metal heads the fuck out).

You are completely right about the metal heads, I mean christ, don't they know that their scene is dead?

Time to hang up the KISS masks people!

The metal "scene" isn't really dead, unfortunately.  There are all these new metalcore crap bands getting pretty popular here in America.

A few years ago the metal scene was as dead as it should be.  It needs to go back to that way!

I was kidding about all that, and I think Spencer was too.

[Signum_Tenebrae]

Yeah, I could tell you were joking (mostly from the KISS masks part)

I was just commenting on the state of the "scene"

[yipjumpmusic]

yipjump: the only way to know for certain if a band sold out is if you ask them and they say "Oh, yeah, definitely, we sold out.  We like money more than music."  However, a sudden change in music, especially when it comes simultaneously with a change in label (Blonde Redhead moved to 4AD at the same time as this sudden change in sound) is suspect, especially when these both coincide with a sudden popularity of a particular style.  Anything's possible, and it could all be a big coincidence, but Occam's Razor suggests they sold out.

Sideways: I mock religions.  Incessantly.

I will say perhaps, perhaps... *then the debate was ended* for now *foreboding music*

[Johnny C]

Guys, really, do we need 66 posts arguing about whether or not we should be arseholes?

[crazybritishsteve]

Yes. It's what we arseholes do best.

'I'm not an arsehole YOU are.'

'No that's your opinion. It doesn't make me an arsehole. However, you're an arsehole'

66 posts fit nicely into two quotes. I roxxor!

[KharBevNor]

I was just commenting on the state of the "scene"

I like scene's like my local 'true' metal scene: About twenty-five guys and girls for a whole county. Sounds pretty right to me. Also, your metal scene sucks unless you have at least one shaven-headed guy who gets mistaken for a neo-nazi all the time and enjoys it, one really fat dude who runs a tattoo or piercing parlour, a scary dudette who has pictures of members of Gorgoroth and Hecate Enthroned under her pillow, and that guy who always has too much to drink and starts singing S.O.D. songs in the street.

They are, in my experience, universal characters, in the UK anyway.

[crazybritishsteve]

Yup, we gots all them bitches.

[Spencer]

NEW RULE:
When you start taking the inner nets hipster bullitin (bulletin?) boards to seriously, then you get hit in the head with a shovel.

Remember kids, if everyont kept their dissenting opinions to themselves, all this board would be is 98767479643 "OMG I Luff Good Charlotte!!!" threads with "OMG, SO DO I!!!" as every single reply.

Disagreement breeds discussion. Far more interesting discussion than 10 kids all agreeing about how rad Louis XIV is.

btw, your taste in music sucks.

[KharBevNor]

Yup, we gots all them bitches.

So I'm not the only one who has to try and shut up Mike when he starts singing 'Fuck the Middle East' in the middle of a crowded street. Thank goodness.

[yipjumpmusic]

You can be as dissenting as you want but when you get crass what is the point?; At least give them the why.  Otherwise it is as bad as threads filled with "they ARE so rad aren't they?" or your examples Spencer.

[Kanno]

starts singing S.O.D. songs in the street.

doo do do do doo do do do dodododo YOUR DEAD dodododo doooo dodododo YOUR DEAD dodododo dooo DOO DOO DOO DOO!

[KharBevNor]

At least Anal Cunt songs are entirely unintelligble...

Oh man, I wish I had a recording of Syrafex's 'Anal Cunt Medley' they did one time I saw them. Given that all of the members were totally pissed and/or stoned, it was mainly an insane blast of slurred riffing, ultrafast peddle drumming and both vocalists screaming and growling almost randomly, though you could pick out the odd 'OI OI OI', 'VAN FULL OF RETARDS AHAHAHAHAHA' or 'HITLER WAS A SENSITIVE MAN! SENSITIVE MAN! SENSITIVE MAN!'

Actually, you can sing that last one pretty well. I hope Mike never realises this.

[screw osmosis]

I hate going to any record store that isn't a chain (i.e. Tower Records, Sam Goody, etc.) where the people actually listen to music and getting the stink eye and a shitty attitude/service whenever I buy something that isn't indie compatible.

Boourns.

[Kanno]

I hate going to any record store that isn't a chain (i.e. Tower Records, Sam Goody, etc.) ......

Sam Goody?  Isn't there one of those in every mall in America?  And I thought there was more than one Tower records around too...

GOD! Why are you buying records at the mall?!?!  That's so not indie!!!  YOU'RE KILLING THE SCENE GODDAMMIT!!!

[My Aim Is True]

I see people mention some really shitty bands every now and then, and the only reason I don't make snide comments is because I get the impression that sort of thing is frowned upon around here. Also, the people who like Hawthorne Heights tend to be really young, and I just pray they'll grow out of it.

We all have black spots on our records. I used to like some shitty punk and ska, and even some shitty nu-metal, way back in the day. I love a lot of hardcore bands, but within that scene I think most stuff people rave about is mediocre.

I'd like to see more talk about good bands in here. And more criticism of bands. Let's start with Sigur Ros, what the hell is up with them? Minimalism is so overdone.

[Merkava]

This board (the music section at least) also revolves predominantly around Indie Culture (and seriously guys, we need to step up our efforts to get these metal heads the fuck out).

You are completely right about the metal heads, I mean christ, don't they know that their scene is dead?

Time to hang up the KISS masks people!

The metal "scene" isn't really dead, unfortunately.  There are all these new metalcore crap bands getting pretty popular here in America.

A few years ago the metal scene was as dead as it should be.  It needs to go back to that way!

They shouldn't have revived Headbanger's Ball. Seriously.

Blantent off topic response: Dude, Anything after Dookie was complete shite. Insomniac was an afront to what little credibility Green Day had left. And Warning? Give me a break.

If you say you liked American Idiot I will break your legs.

I liked American Idiot. I actually think Dookie was awesome, then everything else was crap up until Warning, where they seemed to have delved deeper into songwriting. So what if American Idiot is a cold market-ploy? I liked the music. Get over it.

[jeremy]

Wait...how did a thread about elitism turn into a thread about Green Day?

Anyway, can we all agree that elitism is great? Really, where's the problem in believing that your view of what makes valuable/worthwhile art is somehow better or more correct than another persons'? I'm assuming that is what we are talking about*, or at least I hope so. Because if so, I am definitely an elitist. Not only that, but I'm better at being one than you are! :p

Okay, that was just asinine. Sorry. Gotta do something to blow off steam after work!

Seriously, though...I don't like this "let's all pretend that everything has its good points and never point out that something sucks when we think it does so as to protect everyone's oh-so-fragile feelings and tastes" game that a lot of people play. Let's not lose sight of what we're talking about here: MUSIC. It's entirely subjective (yes, it is!), so if someone doesn't like something that I happen to fancy, I'm not going to cry myself a fucking river over it. Chances are there is some musical common ground to be found with everyone, so why not focus on THAT instead of getting all bent out of shape when someone tells you that _____ sucks/is great/was better before they sold out?

* instead of believing, as some people do, that their completely subjective tastes actually make them better people than the people they disagree with. That's just silly. Damn silly.

[Jimbles!]

I've had this debate a few times about elitism in music. This mostly pertains to underground styles but many forms of music become a subculture. For many, music is huge part of their life. When new forms of music come out and threaten or change the outlook of music you may have been listening, studying, and/or creating for years, people generally will have ill feelings towards it, which generally start trends.

As for my opinions on it, I know what I like and what I don't and of course I'm going to think the music I listen to is better than most. That's why I listen to it.

[yipjumpmusic]

What about factoring in the people that only listen to what is presented them?  As in with radio and TV and chain stores?  A lot is not underground really, it is out there, easy to find but no one looks (mostly inet i mean)  Yes there are far too many to look through everything but just browsing around would open up things for most of these kind of people I think...Their music taste might drastically change if they looked around for their music.  Mine did a bit.

[jeremy]

What about those people? I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.

I will say that for those people, as for people who look outside of Tower Records or wherever, it's a question of their level of involvement, or rather interest in music itself.

As with anything else, you can choose to be as picky as you please concerning music. Obviously, if you're replying to this thread, you probably care about music a fair bit. It doesn't really matter what kind of music you care about, only that you are passionate about it in the same way that a meteorologist is passionate about clouds and wind and shit. When it comes to weather, I don't want to hear all that technical, nerdy talk about cold fronts and pressure cells. I know that I likely won't understand it, and besides, I only care about how hot/cold it will be that day, and whether or not it will rain. In the same way, many people don't really care about why they listen to whatever is on the radio, they only care that it does its job as background noise at work, or rump-shakin' beats at a nightclub, or whatever incidental position it needs to fill for them. Those very same people are probably huge nerds about baseball cards, or horses, or god knows what else.

It's like people who say they don't like chocolate. They exist, but no one is quite sure why. Least of all they themselves.

[yipjumpmusic]

I am just saying in the debate of elitism that situation of people who take what is offered, and those who go looking, well it should be considered somehow besides just the fact of someone saying their music is better than anothers...I am not directing it into any point, just bringing it up.

[Clara]

Locking this for a few reasons:
A) Quote tunnels. Ewww.
B) Although I think you've handled it pretty well up to this point, I can still see this degenerating into a food fight (of angry insults!).
C)

Guys, really, do we need 66 posts arguing about whether or not we should be arseholes?