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[Johnny C]

Anyone else get depressed when they look in a thread and see comments that boil down to "MY MUSICAL TASTES ARE INFINITELY BETTER THAN YOURS CORPORATE RADIO WHORE, HURRRRRR"?

I expect it from the metal guys - mostly because it's funnier and tends to involve much more hilarious physical violence. But the rest of you, lighten up, will you?

[punkpoet]

you think metal guys are bad for thretening physical violence, go to any "popular" club in you town and start saying that 50 cent isent  bouncin or that its "rap" not hip hop, the nearest drunk male will promptly threten you and halfassedly carry out said threat. thats when his moderately sober frineds proceed to kick your arse out the place.

everybody who loves music is eliteist. doesent matter what you listen to there is always that someone who is like that.so dont be depressed, just accept these people are out there adn if you really dont like them dont tlak to them.

i could go on and on, but i really dont feel like stereotyping anymore and the fact of the mattter is hell i may be wrong, this is just based on my experiance as someone who really likes music in all its forms.

[saturnine1979]

eletism is just a result of people taking their musical tastes too personally. obviously when you like certain types of music alot, it's going to cause you to grow personally attatched, making it harder to talk about music based on logic rather than feelings.

it's like talking about sports teams. some people have a lot of themselves invested in a team, and some people just love the game. it's a lot harder to objectively talk about something when you have personal feelings involved.

there's nothing you can really do about it because most people are going to invest alot of themselves into what they listen to.

eletism is also a silly plea for attention. people don't have enough confidence in their own personal tastes, so they proclaim what's considered the most acceptable music as their own taste, not realizing that it's a very faulty ground to stand on. not everyone has the same view of what's considered "the best of the best".. or "the indiest of the indiest", so you can't rely on eletism to describe yourself.

plus eletists are assholes and they miss out on alot.

[sp2]

I don't care if your tastes are different than mine.  Hell, not everything that
I like is good.  I have plenty of shit that I enjoy.  However, I can recognize that it's shit.

Saying "omg green day is teh bestest punk band evar" is just begging to be contradicted.  If you like them, fine.  I don't really care what you like.  But don't make definitive statements about the quality of the music you like just because you like it.  Have something to back it up.

If you want to discuss music more than "oh, hey, I am seeing arcade fire tomorrow"  "oh cool you are lucky" or "i got the new coldplay album and it is good" "ok that is not my taste but i am glad you enjoy it" then there will be arguments.  People's favorite bands will get insulted sometimes.  EVERYONE'S favorite bands.  So fucking what.  It makes things INTERESTING.  Interesting because it means you might get introduced to bands you've never heard of before.  Interesting because you may find out why someone else feels a particular way about a given band or genre that you hadn't thought of before.  Interesting because you will get the opportunity to figure out exactly what it is about a given band that YOU like.

Now, please, I know we don't like flame wars and all that jazz, but how the hell is a civil argument about the merits of a particular band bad?

[saturnine1979]

sp2: because most of the time it isn't civil.

i have no problem discussing the pros/cons of my favorite bands, and i can readily admit when something isn't good, but some people can't have an intelligent conversation about it.

it ends up becoming "OMFG THAT BAND SUCKS AND SO DO YOU. STFU"

[Johnny C]

See, I have no problems with a civil discussion. However, when you get trite, curt, or excessively heated about a topic, then it just gets retarded. And don't try and defend elitism as an argument to "make things interesting." It makes thing stupid, feelings get hurt, etc. I know that having your tastes challenged can help you figure out why you like music, but at the same time if it's not done in a civil way then it has almost an opposite effect, and at the same time whoever's challenging said tastes comes across looking slightly like a dork.

But don't make definitive statements about the quality of the music you like just because you like it.

And the same goes if you don't like it.

As a final note, saying "I recognize that stuff I like is shit" does not justify calling other people's tastes shit. It just doesn't fly.

I hope I've crystallized things for you.

[Tago Mago]

What a person likes doesn't concern me so much as why they like it and what they get out of it. It doesn't take any kind of talent to look up the latest records and buy accordingly, and you can usually figure out pretty quickly those music listeners who are passionate about the artform versus those who have become lost in all the bullshit surrounding it. Generally I find that it's those who are most hostile towards others who fall into this latter category.

[Merkava]

I can be elitist sometimes, but I'm not a full-fledged elitist warrior. I have spurts when someone attacks my genre (not that I even have one ;P)

[sp2]

And don't try and defend elitism as an argument to "make things interesting." It makes thing stupid, feelings get hurt, etc.

Oh man, feelings get hurt.  Oh fucking no.  Look, feelings get hurt all the time.  Feelings got hurt back in the 60s when we started criticizing the way the US treated its women and minorities.  I guess we should never have brought that stuff up, huh?  Feelings got hurt, too, when people criticized Bush for invading Iraq.  I guess we shouldn't have done that either, huh.  Evolutionary theory hurts feelings, too.  Guess we should just tell scientists to go and do something useful, like flipping burgers.  McDonalds doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, right?

Look, no matter what someone says, if you make a decisive point about any opinion you hold, someone else will have an opposing viewpoint, and you might hurt their feelings.  That's life.  Things would be a lot less interesting if no one disagreed on anything.  I'm sorry, but I like living in a world where my opinions differ from other people's, it would be boring living in a world where everyone nodded their head in time to the latest indie sensation or whatever.

I also do take music somewhat seriously.  I have friends that literally make their livings in music, either because they're in a band or because they have a job where they have to critique music (either they write a music column or work as a DJ).  I don't do either, but I do play in a band and I take my own music relatively seriously, which means I am constantly critiquing music  listen to, trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, what is cliche and what is not, what is clever and what is stale, and so forth.  It's not because I'm trying to be elitist.  It's because that's how I think when I'm in music-writing mode.

For the most part, I avoid making personal attacks.  If I do, I attempt to keep them lighthearted and joking, such as my discovery channel special comment.

There are two things that take some balls when talking about music, A) admitting something is quality even if it's not your taste, and B) admitting something is shit even if you like it.  I have no problem doing either so long as I feel there's justfication for such a perspective.  There are bands that I think are shit and can't stand, and that I can provide good solid reasons for my stance.  There are bands I like that I do think are high quality that I can provide good reasons for my opinion as well.  The thread in question was one of the former.  I made an offhand comment, and someone took it seriously, so I took the opportunity to provide my perspective on the band in question with reasons to back up my complaints.

I'm sorry if that hurt anyone's feelings.  Actually, no, I'm really not.  Grow thicker skin.

[Johnny C]

Music isn't politics, it isn't civil rights, and nobody should die or riot becuase of it. And keep in mind, more people cared about what Martin Luther King Jr. had to say than they did about Malcom X. "Keep it civil" is my point, and it applies to pretty much everything you've said here. A difference of opinion is one thing, but dickery about it is an entirely different thing.

I care just as much about music as you do; hell, I buy it, write it, etc., and, just like you, I have friends who are in positions where they are obligated to take music seriously. I'm inclined to call stuff "cliched" and "stale" too, but that's because in some cases it's true.

I do, however, avoid calling people's music shit, even though I may think it is. I can just as easily say, right off the bat, that I think their music's cliched or dishonest or stale or pandering, but I'm going to try and keep the argument civil.

Which brings me back to the point: this is the Questionable Content forum. We're smart people here, we're the good guys. Surely we can have discussions about bands without it delving into "I LIEKS TEH BAND" "TEH BAND SUXXORS AND YOU LIEK 8===D" even if there's also "THIS IS WHY TEH BAND SUXXORS AND YOU LIEK 8===D" attached.

[El Opium]

Don't try to fight the inevitable. If things get out truly out of hand that what mods are for.

[saturnine1979]

critique is the same no matter what art form you're talking about. as an artist, i'm quite familiar with having my work both completely destroyed and lavishly praised by my peers and teachers, but it never gets to me. i've known people who don't know how to handle criticism, both in giving in and recieving it, and they end up hurting feelings and getting their own feelings hurt.

the important thing is to be objective and put aside your personal feelings. they may drive you to create and they may guide your interest, but they don't have much place when critically examining a work.

[KharBevNor]

I wouldn't be elitist if you all wouldn't listen to such poo!

I mean, really people!

[yipjumpmusic]

I say it is okay to have elitist musical taste if you are still open to hearing something before rejecting it and if you don't hold out the "good music" from the so called undeserving, but when you start speaking it out at people you start getting hazy in legitimacy.  (though I think I may have a different definition of elitism) Sure you can try and stay to constructive criticism of why other music is worse or how something else is written more intelligently or with more talent but sometimes the simplest and stupidest music hits certain people the way they need or maybe the only way they can be affected by music.  Some of it is maturity, intelligence and personality which in my stupid theory helps make up what someone will be more prone to like.  So elitists should not make people feel bad about liking music that might be contrived or cliche and so on when it may be the only music those people can ever enjoy.  Hmm I feel like I am still being elitist but I'll add that there are certain genres I mostly do not enjoy much but respect if it is good music.  Also though I would never go out of my way to say such and such band sucks (unless maybe i had a really bad day and slipped) but if someone asked my honest opinion of a band I think is crap they would get what they asked for...but yes, I do shake my head at the stereotypical elitist.

[Praeserpium Machinarum]

I am a tad snobbish sometimes, but I am not an elitist, I wouldn't admit that I have enjoyed Aqua immensely when I was younger if I were. My little brother calls me a hipster all the time, but that's just namecalling and due to the fact that I wrote off Korn as Nu-metal(not to say my brother has bad taste, he shares most of the same tastes as me except for some punk stuff and Korn)
My point is that I don't think elitism is a problem here and that we are far better off than some other forums. Most of it is light-hearted poking, what I have seen anyway...

[Sturge]

Elitism is great fun.

[MilkmanDan]

Which brings me back to the point: this is the Questionable Content forum. We're smart people here, we're the good guys. Surely we can have discussions about bands without it delving into "I LIEKS TEH BAND" "TEH BAND SUXXORS AND YOU LIEK 8===D" even if there's also "THIS IS WHY TEH BAND SUXXORS AND YOU LIEK 8===D" attached.

I can't think of many threads that have turned into "YUO LIEK 8===D". Well I can, but they are normally in The Sandbox, and envolve Est posting pictures of Pandas. But I digress. My point it, QC is hardly a flame filled enviroment. Most of them time, things don't get out of hand, and when they do, it's dealt with. So, chill out.

[Sydney]

ok.. i realise some of you have a lot to say, but i'm damned if i'm going to read all that.

I just don't get people. Ok, you might not agree with eachother, or me, but theres no need for conflict.

I'm sorry i started all this.

[crazybritishsteve]

This thread was started to be purely confrontational. It sucks. I like this band. You think it sucks. Big deal. You like this band, i think it sucks. I will say i think it sucks. I will not say 'your band sucks and so do you' cuz i'm not 12 anymore. Grow up. Unless your 12. In which case it's fine.

[QHD]

The worst elitists are those of us who try to elevate ourselves above all elitism by denouncing others as elitist. I am so elite, I do not judge others at all, for to descend to the level of being elitist would be below me. That is just silliness. Now what's more important, love, or SILLINESS?

I think we all know the answer.

[sp2]

The answer is beer.  Always and forever.

[Spencer]

First off, if someone disgree's with you about your taste in music, and it actually hurts your feelings, you should really get some help with your insecurity issues.

Secondly, if you don't like someone based on their taste in music, that doesnt make you an elitist, it makes you an asshole.

Music Elitests are my favorite people in the world, because they are passionate and opinioned about the thing that I am most passionate and opinionated about - music.

Trying to hold a conversation or discussion about music with someone who isnt as passionate about the subject is boring, a waste of time, and waste of braincells. I love being able to discuss/rant/argue/laugh with someone how they suck cause they listen to phish, about how I suck cause I listen to mindless self indulgence, about how we both suck cause we listen to the scissor sisters, but are both infinitely rad cause we listen to Andrew Bird.

Music Elitists are just more interesting. The elitists have usually been music fans for a long time, and they have lots of interesting stories and interesting records and interesting hair to discuss. It's fun to brag about how you've been listening to Obscuro Band #54764567 for a billion years, and now they're playing on The OC.

The fact of the matter is, *IN GENERAL*, you can usually tell who the musical "newbies" are, based on what they listen to (or post about on the inner nets). The people who are all "OMG I love Green Day," or xGxCx, or Ja Rule or Cradle of Filth or Paul Oakenfold or Louis XIV are usually new to the genre, and/or music in general. It's not your fault that you havent been around long enough to be exposed to some of the better stuff, and trust us, eventually you will become exposed to more and more better music, and you will eventually look back, with fondness, and say "Yeah, Green Day does suck. But I sure do still love Kerplunk." (I think I just dated myself with that statement).

The great thing about this board is that its full of elitists, but without most of the pretentious assholishness of some of the other boards/sites Ive been too.  So please, continue beling elitist. Keep on telling me that At The Drive In sucked, and I'll keep telling you that The Arcade Fire is the second worst band ever, behind only The Flaming Lips, and hopefully I'll find another record as great as the Iron & Wine albums, and maybe you'll fall in love with Tristan Prettyman.

[Merkava]

You're missing a bolt, my friend.

The answer...is "buy bottle rockets"

You'll thank me later.

[a pack of wolves]

you will eventually look back, with fondness, and say "Yeah, Green Day does suck. But I sure do still love Kerplunk."

Only if you fail in your quest to musical supremacy. You ought to be saying "Dookie and Insomniac were great pop albums too, and Nimrod isn't all bad. Hell, even Warning had a few decent tracks on it."

I myself am elitist and proud. Right, I'm off to go brutally beat people for referring to Hawthorne Heights as emo, and then take hair clippers to the heads of people who're dumb enough to actually like Poison The Well. And yes, that does include the old albums. They sucked too.

[Merkava]

Heyyyy, Warning was their best-written album, hands down.

Oh yeah, we're not in that argument anymore.

*flees*

[Spencer]

Blantent off topic response: Dude, Anything after Dookie was complete shite. Insomniac was an afront to what little credibility Green Day had left. And Warning? Give me a break.

If you say you liked American Idiot I will break your legs.

*also*

The only correct response to this thread is "Your taste in music sucks."

[Kai]

I love being able to discuss/rant/argue/laugh with someone how they suck cause they listen to phish,

I pretty much agree with everything you said, except that Phish rocks your socks. And the Flaming Lips do suck.

[Not An Addict]

What's wrong with liking 8===D?

Also, I think a lot of these so-called "attacks" on others' music taste are themselves taken too seriously. It's hard to detect facetiousness or exaggeration on a message board, so when someone says, "That band sucks, and so do you for liking them", they could be acting tongue-in-cheek about it.

Dude, Anything after Dookie was complete shite.

"Hitchin' a Ride" and "Good Riddance" beg to differ. Bitch.

(There, see? Facetious. I don't actually think Spencer is a bitch.)

[nickyandthefuture]

I read this thread before it got popular.

I think the main reason elitism is stupid is that there's no reason to talk about music that you don't like.  Back when I used to write music reviews, I hardly ever wrote negative reviews, because if I didn't like an album, I didn't want to waste my time and effort writing about it since there were lots of other ones that I did like.  Defining your tastes in negative terms is retarded.

[MilkmanDan]

No, you're retarded.
</burn>

Seriously though folks, if someone doesn't like your favourite band, the world still goes on. If someone's being a dick about it, then that's their problem. Move on.

[Schmung]

Despite what many people ehre claim, the vast majority of people here are elitists because this place and the comic is innately about how certain types of music/bands are obviously vastly superior to others.

[sp2]

Despite what many people ehre claim, the vast majority of people here are elitists because the entire indie scene is innately about how certain types of music/bands are obviously vastly superior to others.

Yep.

[nickyandthefuture]

There's a difference between having strong preferences and problematic elitism, though.  A person can like the music he likes and dislike other music, but if he just listens to what he wants, I don't see the problem.  If he makes sure to make a big deal about it when other people mention that they like music that he puts in the latter category, he's an elitist asshole.  Any music-based discussion will involve people with differing opinions on music, but nobody has to be a dick about it.

[KharBevNor]

You're not a real musical elitist till you've trumped an equally matched elitists by making up bands, releases and labels. I love doing that. Also, testing a fellow elitists depths by referring to bands by the name they formed under rather than the name they currently perform by.

I will admit to being a terrible music snob. But there's so much crap people will listen to.

[sp2]

No.  A person is an asshole if:

A) He confuses his personal taste with actual quality.  Quality of music is a real thing that is, for the most part, not all that subjective.  If you assume that everything you like is awesome and everything else is shit, then you're an elitist asshole.  Pitchfork Media does this a lot.  Example: Blonde Redhead.  Pitchfork gave only lukewarm reviews of BR's earlier work, but gave very good reviews of their latest, Misery is a Butterfly.  Misery is a sellout album.  It lacks all the great avant experimentalism that made albums like Fake Can Be Just As Good and their self-titled so damned awesome.  Pitchfork thought it was awesome, though, because it was much more indie-friendly.

B) He extends his judgement of a particular band to judgements about its fans.

C) He assumes a band or album must suck because it falls into a given genre or falls outside the realm of his personal taste

D) He takes it personally whenever someone else states, with good reason, that a band he likes may not be as good as he thinks

E) He listens to The Postal Service*


A person is not an asshole if:

A) he makes judgements about the quality of a given band or album based on his impressions from listening to the band or album.

B) He can accept that bands he doesn't like may still be quality, and that some of the music he likes may actually be sort of crappy (including bands he has a strong emotional attachment to).



*It's a joke, guys.  A JOKE.

[ForteBass]

I think Johnny C's entire point can be summed up Right here. It's the first three rules of this forum. Now stop being complete jerks.

[Signum_Tenebrae]

In the metal "scene", at least, elitism is absolutely essential.

[a pack of wolves]

No.  A person is an asshole if:

A) He confuses his personal taste with actual quality.  Quality of music is a real thing that is, for the most part, not all that subjective.  If you assume that everything you like is awesome and everything else is shit, then you're an elitist asshole.  Pitchfork Media does this a lot.  Example: Blonde Redhead.  Pitchfork gave only lukewarm reviews of BR's earlier work, but gave very good reviews of their latest, Misery is a Butterfly.  Misery is a sellout album.  It lacks all the great avant experimentalism that made albums like Fake Can Be Just As Good and their self-titled so damned awesome.  Pitchfork thought it was awesome, though, because it was much more indie-friendly.

Not all that subjective? You're being very subjective when you say that experimentalism makes a band better. You're basing that on your personal taste, on what you regard to be important in music. There are very few things that aren't subjective, and someone's opinion of music most certainly isn't one of them.

B) He can accept that bands he doesn't like may still be quality, and that some of the music he likes may actually be sort of crappy (including bands he has a strong emotional attachment to).

I can admit a few things are good which I don't personally enjoy listening to, but everything I like is what I would define as good. Why would I listen to it otherwise?

[KharBevNor]

That last comment makes much sense.

[Kai]

You're not a real musical elitist till you've trumped an equally matched elitists by making up bands, releases and labels. I love doing that. Also, testing a fellow elitists depths by referring to bands by the name they formed under rather than the name they currently perform by.

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2424


WOO!


...I've done this too. But only on the internets to kids who are elitists with Warped Tour MTV2 Emo! (You know what I speak of. MCR, The Used, etc)

[Fungicon]

Man, elitism totally hits groups of friends with a vengeance. I guess music is one of the simplest ways to hook into one's emotions, which like you guys are saying means you have to tread carefully.

What always blows me away is how much I want to hate a band because of other people who like them. It's so stupid. But at the same time I've been to enough concerts now to know the crowd at a show can totally make or break the experience for me, and that feeling seeps into my opinion of the band.[/url]

[Kai]

Man, what's with all the Phish hate? Earlier in the thread and in that article. Bleh.

[Fungicon]

Easy target, I guess. Plus maybe some market-correction for those six months several years back when they seemed to be everywhere, even on network TV.

[sp2]

You're being very subjective when you say that experimentalism makes a band better.

No.  Experimentalism is what made Blonde Redhead good.  When they took that away and made stereotypical indie rock, they pretty much sold out and lacked that piece of them that made them interesting (i.e the avant stuff).  It's like if, say, the Weakerthans decided to start playing stereotypical death metal.  Maybe they'd play decent death metal, I don't know, but they have something going right now which is well done, and to sell it out for something more stereotypical is stupid.

Changing your music to fit a trend is selling out, and that's exactly what BR did.  While a lot of indie kids might like Misery is a Butterfly, I really could care less.  It's a sellout album, and selling out is not my idea of good music.

[yipjumpmusic]

So you know they made that album in attempts to copy a style?  They write that in their band journal or what?  Just because something fits in more with a certain music type, does not mean they did it just to do so unless there is some proof you forgot to mention.  Also even if they purposely attempted to get a certain sound, just because it fits into an existing genre does not make them sell outs.  Hell, almost every band existing would be sellouts unless they mixed genres that aren't mixed usually or if a band somehow created a new genre.  Still, show me this proof besides pointing at the music and saying it sounds like indie music.  Maybe they did not feel like doing experimental stuff that time around and not because it was not profittable but maybe just because...you cite pitchfork liking the new CD like they knew exactly how pitchfork would react but this is all after the fact of the music they made so is not much for proof of anything.  Anyways, doesn't matter, you've made up your mind and even with intellegent debate we'll get this thread locked soon enough I bet if we keep on this issue though I must say elitism is still within this debate.

[a pack of wolves]

I wasn't saying you were wrong sp2, just that you're not being objective. You're talking opinion when you were suggesting music could be assessed fairly non-subjectively. Nothing wrong with that, but since as you can see yipjumpmusic can make a perfectly coherent argument for a different interpretation you aren't speaking facts. And for me it's the clash of different interpretations that make things interesting. No-one ever being able to be right is fun.

[Kanno]

maybe I shouldn't bring up Green Day, but:

sp2:  You're all over that thread talking about how American Idiot is shite because it's trying to make cash from it's listeners by being "topical" about politics.

That record really wasn't all that political.  If you actually listened to it, you'd know that the whole theme of the record is pretty much about the emptiness of living in suburban-style communities.  Which is what Green Day has pretty much always sang about.

Did you even listen to it before falling into the "glance over" general opinion trap?

[crazybritishsteve]

I agree, a little. It is what green day have always sung about. But just about every song they've released recently may aswell have been called 'bush sucks'. They are a total bandwagon band.

[Spencer]

in response to SP's post:

A) Blonde Redhead was never good. Ever.
B) Shitty people tend to like shitty bands/musicians. Therefore, it stands to reason, that if you like, oh, Dimmu Borgir or Elliot Smith, you are probably a shitty person.
C) I like good music. Therefore, it stands to reason, anything I do not like sucks.
D) Your mom takes it personally!
E) Ben Gibbards voice is so dreamy!

The fact of the matter is that Indie Culture is predominantly based around Elitism. The Alpha Hipster of any scene is the person who is usually the most elite person of all. He listens to better music than you, he has better hair than you, his car is more broken down than yours, and his cardigan is *soooo* much cooler than yours. He's probably also a really rad person that knows a shit ton about shitty obscure indie bands that no one will ever hear of until a few years down the line when they are on mtv.

This board (the music section at least) also revolves predominantly around Indie Culture (and seriously guys, we need to step up our efforts to get these metal heads the fuck out). There fore, it stands to reason that there's gonna be a lot of elitism, cause thats what Indie culture is all about.

*Disclaimer for all indie kids with emo tendencies that may get butthurt by this post* This thread is mostly tounge-in-cheek. Please don't cry because you missed the point and took all the asshoeishness seriously.

[Kai]

Psh. Death Cult Armageddon may have sucked, but Stormblast Dimmu rocked my effing socks off.