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[Patatat]

zek if you were a wiser man, you'd of had an epiphany.

[zekterellium]

ouch.

finally on the receiving end.

[KharBevNor]

Albeit a poorly spelt recieving end.

[Merkava]

For what its worth, I like Sparta much better than ATDI.

Sparta is an uninspired attempt to keep the ATDI flames burning after all the talent left the band.

Agreed. Let's face it; Cedric and Omar were the ONLY things that made that band great. Without their creative drive and emotion, there is nothing left. Of course, what kept ATDI from going off the deep-end (Mars Volta) was the other bandmembers. It was a two-way restraining device. XP

Oh, and I'd like to add Mock Orange's first album to that good emo list. They had a nice twin guitar attack and never whined about...well, anything. It was just emotion. Mabe they can be considered emocore.

I'm just wondering. Why are The Dismemberment Plan considered "emo"? They sound nothing like anything in that emo umbrella, good emo or not.

[My Aim Is True]

I would NEVER call the Dismemberment Plan an emo band, and I don't think I have ever heard anyone else do so.

And to Zekterellium- yes, emo was an early form of post-hardcore. Now the straight up post-hardcore bands like Fugazi and Quicksand, I would not call emo.

[zekterellium]

planes mistaken are definitely post-hardcore, even back when. what i meant was, we were talking about genre classifications and how much it annoys you when people got it wrong, and you sorta maybe got it wrong. not being whiney or anything, i just wanted you to know. but yeah, we cleared it up, now i can go back to the sandbox where it's safe.

[Patatat]

Albeit a poorly spelt recieving end.

One effin' letter off.

[Merkava]

I would NEVER call the Dismemberment Plan an emo band, and I don't think I have ever heard anyone else do so.

And to Zekterellium- yes, emo was an early form of post-hardcore. Now the straight up post-hardcore bands like Fugazi and Quicksand, I would not call emo.

Rhapsody lists them as emo, and it says "emo quartet" in the Allmusic biography (though the later albums are called Indie Rock in the reviews). The bio only goes up until they released their first or second album, so it's more understandable, I guess.

[captainawesome]

GOOD EMO

Oh man, that's a good one!

But seriously.  The reason I have a strong dislike for the general emo scene - yes, even the "true good emo" bands - is that at least 95% of them came from rich white families from the suburbs, and got guitar lessons paid for by their parents, and yet at the same time they're complaining about life.

Yes, everyone has some aspect of life that's shit, but I feel like maybe they should step back, and look at other people's lives. Like say, Kuwait, with that whole genocide thing?  Or maybe even those famous starving children in Africa (Stereotypical as it is, it still is a problem, and very few people seem intereseted in doing anything about it).  And they're complaining about their life?

Aside from that, genres do very little except limit. I think truly great musicians can't fit under the mold of a single classification, and the term emo has such a grossly negative connotation that I don't even bother defending it anymore, misunderstood or not.

But hey, if you like emo music, then awesome.  It's not my thing, but I thought I'd give a perspective that isn't "But emo is just misunderstood!" or "ZOMG EMO IS TEH SUX"

[daysweregolden]

What's the trouble, that no one really knows what the fuck they're talking about when they use it?  I guess it's like pornography, everyone thinks they knw it when they see it, but no one can really agree on the same things actually BEING emo.

By some definitions, hell, even Soundgarden and Nirvana have at least a foot in the emo scene.

I think this is one of those times where we all need to stop arguing and beat the shit out of the guy with the retro jacket and the Buddy Holly glasses.

its not just the definitions, its the aesthetic of the band also. if youre not a real fan of this type of music you wont get it. its the same as when fucking techno fans try to seperate genres, anyone who doesnt listen to that shit all the time wont get it. so if you dont listen to emo or are a fan of the real bands involved dont bother cos its pointless.

[My Aim Is True]

planes mistaken are definitely post-hardcore, even back when. what i meant was, we were talking about genre classifications and how much it annoys you when people got it wrong, and you sorta maybe got it wrong. not being whiney or anything, i just wanted you to know. but yeah, we cleared it up, now i can go back to the sandbox where it's safe.

there are some lines that are fuzzy (like the line between emo and post-hardcore), I generally don't quibble about those classifications, my main complaint was that someone asked what emo was, and everyone said "pop punk bands that whine about girls."

[My Aim Is True]

But seriously.  The reason I have a strong dislike for the general emo scene - yes, even the "true good emo" bands - is that at least 95% of them came from rich white families from the suburbs, and got guitar lessons paid for by their parents, and yet at the same time they're complaining about life.

Yes, everyone has some aspect of life that's shit, but I feel like maybe they should step back, and look at other people's lives. Like say, Kuwait, with that whole genocide thing?  Or maybe even those famous starving children in Africa (Stereotypical as it is, it still is a problem, and very few people seem intereseted in doing anything about it).  And they're complaining about their life?

maybe you didn't notice, but a lot of the bands I listed are very political, and while some of them do speak of pain, they're not exactly "complaining." A lot of it is very hopeful and positive about the basic goodness of life.

[ebullientsoul]

Strike Anywhere ...I don't hear them going on about girls they've lost.
Ditto for Paint it Black.

That's exactly my point.

But half of PIB's new album is a metaphor for Dan Yemin's divorce.

I've never heard that idea about Paradise before, but I'd like to hear where you did.

If the definition we're using of emo is music with emotion then that pretty much makes most groups out there emo.

You are still missing the point. Emo does NOT mean "music with emotion" but it also if all a band does is whine about girls and feeling lonely, then that is NOT emo either. The original emo movement grew out of 80's hardcore bands that got sick of meatheaded aspects of the scene, and branched into a blending of the personal and the political (which whether or not they realized it, is a core tenet of a large school of thought in modern sociology, especially academic feminism).

Do you like Minor Threat? Then go here and buy this http://www.dischord.com/store?action=showRel&relNumber=24 And then you will have a start on where emo came from.


And as for Paint It Black, I can't remember where I first heard it, but read this-

PAINT IT BLACK'S follow up to their urgent and trouncing CVA is epic in comparison. Not simply in terms of song length, but more importantly in terms of subject matter. Paradise contains all the mile-a-minute passion of the last release coupled with a more thematic tone, exploring the personal pains of divorce, the more global concerns of war and how the two are hopelessly intertwined. The end result is a heroic look inward and ultimately a catharsis guised in uncompromising intensity and spirit.

And by the way, about half the songs on PIB's first album were about Dan Yemin's stroke. CVA stands for "Cardio Vascular Accident," the medical term for a stroke. Can't get much more personal than that. PIB is an emo band. Because emo is a type of hardcore.

I define emo as "somewhat slow vaugely indie or punk rock music relating, and exclusively so to heartbreak". And yes, I'm well aware of emo's origins, however seeing as the recent stuff is more pervasive i consider that emo, and the "original" stuff early emo.

Addtionally, seeing as less and less emo bands talk about anything truly worth crying over, i'd argue that when something truly worth crying over happens to someone (ala Hot Water Music's near loss of a guitarrist or Yemin's stroke) it stops being emo.

Paint it Black IS a hardcore band. No if ands or buts about it. I asked Yemin myself. Certaintly there's personal stuff there but when your CD ends with a song like Memorial Day and begins with Election Day, that's political.

In short, its all in the defintion. Since you seem to be kicking around the term emo properly, I'll agree with you, we just use different terminology.

[Robbo]

That seems a really crappy way of looking at it. Just take all the hard work people did creating a sound, its name and scene, something new. And just ripping it away and handing it over to nice comfortable mass media stereotypes. Be alright if the two where actually realated and it was just a change in the music rather than the work of media. But it's clear why I'd think this and it's a personal annoyance.

Ok, I clearly need tea, that was far to bitter for this time of day.

[My Aim Is True]

I define emo as "somewhat slow vaugely indie or punk rock music relating, and exclusively so to heartbreak".

i'd argue that when something truly worth crying over happens to someone (ala Hot Water Music's near loss of a guitarrist or Yemin's stroke) it stops being emo.

well, then you're just plain wrong. I say that with a smile on my face, a warm heart towards your contributions to this discussion, and an appreciation of the rest of your last post, but I'm still serious.


I know it will never happen, but I'd just like for whenever anyone who doesn't know about emo asks, that instead fo just being told about the mainstream definition of emo, someone would very quickly say "Well, there's what emo really is, but you're probably thikning of all this other stuff that really isn't emo at all." Because, seriously, emo is one badly abused term.

Like what if the mainstream press continually referred to bands like Matchbox 20 and Three Doors Down as "indie rock." Eventually, the Average Joe On The Street would think of those bands as being textbook cases of indie rock. Does that make it so?

[My Aim Is True]

That seems a really crappy way of looking at it. Just take all the hard work people did creating a sound, its name and scene, something new. And just ripping it away and handing it over to nice comfortable mass media stereotypes. Be alright if the two where actually realated and it was just a change in the music rather than the workd of media. But it's clear why I'd think this and it's a personal annoyance.

Ok, I clearly need tea, that was far to bitter for this time of day.

::applause::

[Robbo]

As a Metalhead I can not stand for media defacing of good music like that. The media tells people stuff about music and most of it as a lie. People here would throw a damn fit if that happend to Indie so they should show some respect. I'm not even that big a fan of Emo but still, I've learnt about what real Emo is, listend to stuff and the connecting stuff I actually enjoy. I know find well the problems the music and the fans face...and the fact of generally being spit on and robbed by the media and the public.

Yeah it's a personal rant. But I'm sure people here hate when The Liberteens and The Killers get called Indie and if someone suggested that because that's the current media face of Indie music, that's what it should be.

[My Aim Is True]

But I'm sure people here hate when The Liberteens and The Killers get called Indie.

I almost listed a bunch of bands from the billboard top 20 modern rock singles, adn asked if they were indie just because the mainstream media said so, but I was almost afraid that people here would say, "Yes, Incubus, Foo Fighters, Weezer, The Bravery, My Chemical Romance, and The Killers are all indie bands."

[Se7en]

I dont give a toss if the killers are indie or not, i like them all the same. If you like something, listen to it. If you dont, then dont.

Labelling music is increasingly more and more pointless. This is a circular argument thats not going to get anywhere.

Stupid people listen to stupid music. Emo has its crap pop bands, punk has its crap pop bands, and so does every other genre, because idiocy knows no limits.

[KharBevNor]

Actually, if you listen to any band signed to a major, we don't speak to you round here.

Go away now, corporate whore.

[movielife_girl]

Nice pot shot at the stereotypical and incorrect massmedia idea of Emo.

Nah man, I'm just sick of the emo discussion you know?  It's been going on for about 2-3 years now, it's just tired.  Whatever though, I  guess the smart thing to do would be to just stay out of this discussion.  Too bad I was never one to be intelligent about things.

[mechorg]

I just think its kinda sad people have to bicker over it rather than accept that people classify things differently.  What I label as "indie", for example, someone else may call something completely different.  Okay, fine.

I mostly label things for my own convenience and how I remember it and make it easier to find things on my computer.  It seems a lot of people stick labels to bands just to sound like more of a music elitist by adding hyphens.  Okay, fine.  But to me, your post-hardcore-thrash-viking-metal is just metal.

Anyone that wants to argue over post-hardcore-thrash-viking-metal is just an ass and proving my point.

[Mnementh]

Threads like this around the board make me thing that Emo is now one of the most misunderstand, mislabelled and least really known about genres...

Ding Ding, we have a winner.

Emo (an abbreviation of "emotionally-driven Hardcore punk" or just "emotional-hardcore") is a term now broadly used to describe almost any form of guitar-driven alternative rock that expresses emotions beyond traditional punk's limited emotional palette of alienation and rage. It is also used to describe fans of this genre, most commonly teenagers (emo kids). The actual term "emo" originated in the mid-1980s D.C. scene, with the band Rites of Spring, as well as bands such as Fugazi, Moss Icon, and Antioch Arrow. The term addressed both the way the band connected with its audience, as well as its tendency to deal more with topics of personal and relationship politics than with the standard themes of rock music.

For what wikipedia is worth I think that is a fairly accurate definition, I'd add that it's power chord driven alternative rock.  The word emo has become so misused since the rise of Jimmy Eat World and the music of the late-90's and early naughties that today it means anyone with a guitar who can whine.

The lesson we can learn.  Genre definitions are useless, don't bother with them, they vary from person to person and band to band.  Scenes are even more useless as they become the basis for pretention.

[mechorg]

Since I think Mnementh was writing that post while I was writing mine, I'll agree with everything said.

I'd also like add that genres usually have a specific sound.  A lot of artists today vary their sound even on a single album that pigeon-holing someone into a single genre seems next to impossible.

[KharBevNor]

post-hardcore-thrash-viking-metal

Would that be post-hardcore with thrashy viking metal, post hardcore/thrash with viking metal influences, or something that comes after hardcore-thrash-viking?

Also, although this is an over the top example, people oftem hold music close to their heart, so, every-time you call alt-whine rock 'emo' imagine you just called everyone in Ireland a member of the IRA.

[Robbo]

The lesson we can learn.  Genre definitions are useless, don't bother with them, they vary from person to person and band to band.  Scenes are even more useless as they become the basis for pretention.

Maybe to some people, but not to all. Nice of you to come down and say no one can use them when some people and scenes work rather well with them thank you very much. I dont see how stuff based on musical styles and ideas can change that much from band to band...especially when some bands carve out a sound that clear yes/no lines for their music.

Screw it, I like to live in my little stamp collecting world you know? Means I can't just passively sit there like some brainless meatbag and let some bland and tepid music wash over me and live in happy bunny and media land where everything in safe and calm and I dont have to think about my music or analyise or be challegend or have a brain. I like to be able to compear it it, think about, see how it matches up with it peers, how it works and more stuff along those lines.

And what's so bad about a band setting out to play that one style or a maybe two or three styles, of music and playing it? Seems to work find for lots and lots of bands.

[ASturge]

Also, although this is an over the top example, people oftem hold music close to their heart, so, every-time you call alt-whine rock 'emo' imagine you just called everyone in Ireland a member of the IRA.

Nice one.

On the subject of genres, I think they're good to a certain extent.

Greenday is pop-punk, Iron Maiden is Heavy Metal. Simple. I just get a little bit annoyed when people start saying things like " post-hardcore-thrash-viking-metal"

[Robbo]

Right, I've got no problem with that sort of view. That's the view of someone that likes music, knows a little bit about it..can tell things apart and that's all it needs to do. It's there to let you know what the music sounds like. So you only ever need to go so far. Something like say "Folk infleuenced Ambient Electronica" something with a little more detail when you get more varied bands or groups doing things a little differently. And even I will say there can be overkill in genre descriptions..even for the most hardcore users. Comes a point when you should just give up and just call in "Experimental" whatever or something along those lines.

[ASturge]

Just clearing something up, I don't like Green Day and Iron Madien (much...)

Also, I do understand music, very well infact. I could compose a classical guitar piece off the top of my head easy. You have to really know an instrument to do that.

I'm a bit annoyed at how you seem to think I don't know much about the thing that I want to spend the rest of my life doing just becasue I can't describe a band's genre in more then four words...

[mechorg]

I'm a bit annoyed at how you seem to think I don't know much about the thing that I want to spend the rest of my life doing just becasue I can't describe a band's genre in more then four words...

I second that.
I have no problems in someone describing the sound of a band with long chains of adjectives, but it in no way should then be a genre.

I dont see how stuff based on musical styles and ideas can change that much from band to band...

There's a lot of music out there you should listen to sometime.

Screw it, I like to live in my little stamp collecting world you know? Means I can't just passively sit there like some brainless meatbag and let some bland and tepid music wash over me and live in happy bunny and media land where everything in safe and calm and I dont have to think about my music or analyise or be challegend or have a brain. I like to be able to compear it it, think about, see how it matches up with it peers, how it works and more stuff along those lines.

I don't even know where to start with this paragraph...

[Mnementh]

As someone pointed out, you can't really pigeon hole people into genres, very few bands are that shallow.

Also, I had a funny thought at work today as I was humming "I Want You To Want Me" in my head (Live at Budoken of course).  By todays definition, Cheap Trick is definitely emo.  That just amused me.

[KharBevNor]

But music genres are so much fun! Plus, if you went 'pop-punk is pop-punk' then Screeching Weasel=Avril Lavigne, and if 'heavy metal is heavy metal' then Motley Crue=Cryptic Wintermoon.

You can't just dismiss genres. Especially if you want to find more music in the style of your favourite bands off your own bat.

[Robbo]

ASturge was that aimed at me....because that wasn't the point of what I was trying to say about that comment. I was saying you where right and in that you can say things simply like "Iron Mainden is Heavy Metal" And that's says/shows you understand the music and what it's about. And that there is overkill and you dont really need a huge long genre desc because that's not the point alot of the time.

Is the "knows a little bit about it" point?...Which I ment to men music as a whole. As in, knowing Heavy Metal from Nu Metal, Hardcore from Death Metal, Trance from House, etc, etc. Knowing a lot in detail about your chosen likes and about musical technicallity is another issue.

Mechorg, that's was based off what I listen to you know. Maybe it evloved very different from what you listen to. And maybe the level of change we're on about is different. I listen to genres that span 20, 30 years. You can look at how stuff changes...how bands work on the building blocks, change the way ideas work and stuff. I take it point about being subjective to mean a band looking at a style of music and saying "no, that's not x at all" and throwing it all away to do something different that's apprently still x.

[My Aim Is True]

Plus, if you went 'pop-punk is pop-punk' then Screeching Weasel=Avril Lavigne, and if 'heavy metal is heavy metal' then Motley Crue=Cryptic Wintermoon.
.

EXACTLY

[daysweregolden]

http://fourfa.com

go here for an opinionated, but pretty accurate description of emo and its subgenres, its ok for people who nothing about the movement.

[mechorg]

The only point I was trying to make, Robbo, is that a simple genre such as 'emo' or 'metal' or 'alternative' or the like can be so objective that arguing over a sound of a certain genre is rediculous because many people can view it differently.
I think its just hard to understand what you are saying in your posts sometimes.

I don't mind using words to describe music, like Khar said to find other music you like, but don't name it as a genre.  Just be more descriptive and actually talk about the music.  Don't just try to simplify thinks and stick a genre to it.

If someone asks what a band sounds like, don't just say "oh, they are emo"... maybe the person that asked wants to know a little more about the sound.

[mahlon]

WHAT ABOUT MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE? DASHBOARD CONFESSIONAL? RYAN CABRARA? NEW FOUND GLORY?

Fuck, get your emo straight.

[KharBevNor]

I don't mind using words to describe music, like Khar said to find other music you like, but don't name it as a genre.  Just be more descriptive and actually talk about the music.  Don't just try to simplify thinks and stick a genre to it.

If someone asks what a band sounds like, don't just say "oh, they are emo"... maybe the person that asked wants to know a little more about the sound.

But surely that IS the genre? Isn't this whole THREAD about NOT just saying 'oh, they are emo'?

[est]

i think that genres are useful as a rather broad way of defining a band.  but after a while you have to start saying things like "oh, they are emo/pop-punk/heavy metal/whatever genre and the guitars in it sound a little like band1 and the singer reminds me of that dude from band2" etc.

not writing off genres as a good way to quickly narrow down a band's sound, just saying that maybe a lot of people take them too seriously.

[Robbo]

Hey, est....just because you don't know people that can't keep it undercontrol with genres...doesn't mean everyone is like that ok? And not all genres are THAT board. If it's an issue of detail, should just be left to actuall describing the band.

Eg: What does band "XZY sound like?" Short answer: "They're genre PQ" "Ok, they got any fine details or influences?" Long answer "Well, they draw the odd thing from genre PR on this album..and the guitars used to like like band ABC but now they sound more like DCA"

It's a case of what detail you need to talk about a band. I'm gonna try to make an example here. I'm gonna use Metal so live with it. Some genres are big and complex...and you've all heard me and Khar talk about how Metal. But saying a band is just "Metal" is like saying someone lives in New York. So if you want more detail, you start on subgenres...which narrow the field, give a little more detail. Say if a band is Progressive Death Metal or Symphonic Black Metal...would be the same as do they live in Queens ot Manhattan? Maybe you could get another level of detail in after that....But by that point....you'd know the ball park. So if you wanted more info...you'd actually be describing the band. Like what combinations of styles they actually use, how the sound compeared to other bands in that subgenre and where they sit in relation to other genres. Would come to saying what sort of building the person lives in...and where the building is in relation to the surrounding areas.

Yeah...forgive me lack of knowledge of NY...but I hope that makes a better picture.

[My Aim Is True]

so objective that arguing over a sound of a certain genre is rediculous because many people can view it differently.

before I joined this board I NEVER saw so many people get objective and subjective totally backawards.

[sp2]

Eg: What does band "XZY sound like?" Short answer: "They're genre PQ" "Ok, they got any fine details or influences?" Long answer "Well, they draw the odd thing from genre PR on this album..and the guitars used to like like band ABC but now they sound more like DCA"

Are XYZ any good?  I heard ABC's last album and it was pretty good, and I saw DCA when they were touring off their second album back in 2001 and that show was serously tight.  Seriously, though, ABC's more RT nowadays than PQ.  I think their guitarist did a bit too much acid after their third LP.

Okay, I'm fucking with you.

[mahlon]

XYZ are awesome dude! It has ex members of LMNOP

[sp2]

Oh.  Eh.  LMNOP were sort of poppy and uninspired.  I never really understood the fascination.  They always seemed to me to be a watered down version of FXT.

I feel dirty.  Dirty like a hipster.

[My Aim Is True]

XYZ are awesome dude! It has ex members of LMNOP

dangit, now I may have to dig up my LMNOP 7". I was a big fan of that guy's zine around 2000, but I can't remember exactly what his band sounded like.

I am actually not joking.

[Se7en]

I dont think this is too far off topic, so il not start another thread...

I have a problem. I have a friend that listens to some pretty awful emo, and hasnt heard anything but the crappy stuff. Ive introduced him to sunny day real estate, since thats the closest thing to proper emo that i like and am familier with.
Bassically, he needs re-educating, and i need some suggestions, since i honestly dont know squat about good emo. Suggest specific albums and songs if you can..

[mechorg]

so objective that arguing over a sound of a certain genre is rediculous because many people can view it differently.

before I joined this board I NEVER saw so many people get objective and subjective totally backawards.

Wow, i can't believe i did that.  I guess I got confused in all the philosophical discussions in other threads.

I've been having a bad week, so I have a feeling i've been trying to argue more than was necessary.  This thread is about emo, not a whole discussion on whether genres are over-analyzed.  I see why people label the music they listen to and I probably do it just as much as everybody else.  But I also think some people don't have the same idea when it comes down to sub-genres or just aren't educated enough to seperate things properly.

To use Robbo's analogy (and i, too, lack a specific knowledge of NYC), sure you can narrow it down to Queens or Manhattan... but what if some people say Queens starts at 8th Street and others say it starts at 11th Street.  Genres don't have specific lines seperating them and a gang war seems to start when the boundaries are stretched.

[mahlon]

I dont think this is too far off topic, so il not start another thread...

I have a problem. I have a friend that listens to some pretty awful emo, and hasnt heard anything but the crappy stuff. Ive introduced him to sunny day real estate, since thats the closest thing to proper emo that i like and am familier with.
Bassically, he needs re-educating, and i need some suggestions, since i honestly dont know squat about good emo. Suggest specific albums and songs if you can..

Small Brown Bike - Our Own Wars
Jawbreaker - 24 Hour Revenge Therapy
Husker Du - New Day Rising
Casket Lottery - possiblies and maybes
Saetia - A Retrospective

.. and I don't really consider this band to be emo... but close enough and good enough to recomend but tell this person to pick up Waxwing - Nobody Can Take What Everybody Owns

6 of the best emo albums ever.

[Robbo]

Mechorg, you do have a point. But then only so many bands are gonna sit on those edges. But that's where the fun can be, when you have to do some musical dective work to see how it all breaks down. What I generally see happen is it either comes down to "band sits between X and Y..can't really tell the bits apart, all sounds good though." or it's "band sits betweem X and Y, the X bit is great, but they need to cut the Y parts because they suck".

[a pack of wolves]

One reason I get picky about what is and isn't emo is that to me hardcore is/should be a countercultural movement as well as a musical genre. So bands which don't fit with that movement at all being tagged emo (which is a subgenre of hardcore and not something apart from it) is damaging to that, and the same goes for a lot of the bands that get called metalcore.

On the subject of good emo recommendations to wean someone onto it, I'd say go for some classics:
Embrace - Embrace
Rites of Spring - Rites of Spring
Dag Nasty - Can I Say