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[Ballard]

Maybe I am expecting too much from a completely digital equalizer interface on a tiny computer-like gadget?

Fixed.

Digital EQ has never, ever compared to a real equalizer. My 80 gig iPod Video has the same problem. It's not a big enough annoyance so I usually just ignore it.

[kablaaamo]

Anybody see that experiment where to break a first gen iPod nano, they had to toss it 30 feet into the air and run over it in a car several times before it broke?

The first gen Nanos are seriously invincible. I have one; got it two years ago and since then:
  -I have completely soaked it twice (by leaving it in my purse, and leaving the purse in the rain)
  -I drop it.......well, most of the times I use it. Which is often outside. On concrete sidewalks.
  -I've run it pretty much constantly.

It's very very scratched, obviously, but I've only ever had to hard reset once; after the first soaking, I had to let it dry out for a day before it worked again. Other than that, NO PROBLEMS. It's unbelievable. I'm clumsy and careless....a small electronic device should have no chance. Bass? I have a decent set of big, ear-muff type headphones and I've always thought it was fine.

I was given it as a Christmas gift though, so that's why I have an iPod...left to my own devices, I probably would've chosen one of the Creative models. That being said, I'm a pretty pleased Apple customer too.

[Spinless]

@ Spineless:  Supporting Lossless media files?  Like what?  Raw video?  Raw 44.1khz audio?  So you want like, 10 uncompressed CDs on an 80gig ipod?  maybe 10 minutes of raw video?  There is no such thing as lossless.  Digital is lossy by its very functionality.  you want what?  ogg support?  Pick your battles, your argument is weak against the entire concept of a "MP3 PLAYER"

I'm sorry to be pedantic here, really sorry infact. I hope it doesn't seem like I'm picking at scabs just to make them bleed, because that certainly isn't what I'm doing, and I really hope that it doesn't seem like I'm trying to start an argument or something, I wouldn't usually behave like this, because we actually hate pedants here, even put them in the stocks and pelt them with fruit, but...
My screen name is Spinless. No 'e'.

Good day to you. sir Statik with a 'kay'!

[est]

Digital EQ has never, ever compared to a real equalizer. My 80 gig iPod Video has the same problem. It's not a big enough annoyance so I usually just ignore it.

See, problem is though that the sound on my Walkman phone is better.  I am merely expecting a premium soundgadget to have better sound than a phone.

[E. Spaceman]

for some reason my ipod has taken to putting out music at such an incredibly low volume. I remember when I forst got it, listening to the thing with the full volume was painful, but now it is the only way i can get a semi decent sound out of it. The headphones put out volume fine through the little holes on the back but on the main earphone thing it is really quiet. Probably the (ugly) headphones though.

[Spinless]

It is customary to destroy the headphones that come packaged with the iPod! On our island, people use a podphone stomping festival as a marketing ploy for big shoes!
Once a year we dump all our iPod headphones in a big pile and we stomp them to dust! Is much fun.

[FireAarro]

Going a bit off topic here, but can anyone recommend me some in-ears (canalphones)? I'm sick of these earbud thingies.

[Ballard]

I've tried about 50 varieties of these, and they're all exactly the same. These are the best value, however.

[Spinless]

'Value' isn't a word you often see linking to the apple store.

[Ballard]

Considering the fact that anything comparable is around the $100 mark, they're a pretty good value.

[Statik]

@ Anyways : I didnt work for apple, I worked for Best Buy and then Circuit City (Best Buy as a company is better to work for, benefits wise, but I was far happier as a warehouse employee @ CC)
@ Spinless : I do apologize for misreading your name

As far as bass response, I would agree that the digital EQ sucks in the iPod, granted, I have never hooked mine up to a stereo, as I didn't buy the iPod for such a thing (could get into a whole argument on how MP3 is pretty shitty for an audiophile), I use the standard headphones that came with it, because on the occasions that I happen to be listening to it, Im either listening to it quietly, or while walking around (or in my car on my crappy car speakers).  When I want to listen to music, I put CDs into my nice stereo.

I do feel thats kind of beyond the point though, if you are looking for a (and Ill add the emphasis) MP3 PLAYER and making arguments about how a MP3 PLAYER is terrible for your audiophile ears... well, I think theres other issues that you have to contend with.  Digital Audio is lossy by its very nature.  Audio, in its true form, is analog... MP3s are super compressed audio files, and while there is other audio codecs which arent as lossy, MP3 became the dominant format.  Yes, there is better ones, yes we could get into a whole argument about which is better and why, but again, if you are an audiophile buying a MP3 player, you arent going to like ANYTHING put in front of you.

[Ballard]

I think the iPod and lossy audio files aren't the only problem here.

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/weekly_article/imperfect-sound-forever.htm

Fantastic read and touches on a lot of what this thread is about.

[est]

I am not an audiophile by a longshot, I just know what I like. 

What I am saying is that I have an iPod Nano and a Walkman Phone.  The Walkman Phone sounds better through any set of headphones I care to use on them, be they the stock-standard earbuds, a pair of crappy headphones, a pair of good Sennheiser canalphones, or a pair of Sennheiser HD280s, and the Walkman phone only has like, 4 EQ settings.  The point is that the Walkman phone has a Bass boost feature that doesn't distort the hell out of the sound.  That is pretty much the only difference!  If the iPod had this feature I would prefer it.  It doesn't, so I am stuck using a phone as a music device and trying to base future phone purchases on whether or not they are Sony Walkman phones, which is very restricting.

[Gilbert]

after reading this thread and that article i can't help but to question what myself, and many are others losing from listening to music in a format purely because it's convenient, available and pretty much free . i love my music. i own a few turntables and have a large vinyl collection that i cherish dearly and listen to it whenever i get the chance, but due to working and commuting, i rely on the most convenient format, being mp3s on my phone. i kind of get the feeling that i'm being priced out of hearing music in the way it should be just because i can't afford good headphones or to have the time to indulge myself in the almost decent equipment i found on the side of the road(council clean-ups rock). and that sucks! i guess i just feel slightly robbed of the experience. sorry for taking this slightly off topic from the original post. i just find this interesting and annoying

[Ballard]

Well, the reverse side of that article is that the guy who wrote it is a total snob and you must not take him too seriously. After reading it, I could hardly listen to my iPod or music on my computer for a month. It nearly ruined the experience for me.

Admit, though, that you would never have noticed most of the shit he brings up were it not pointed out to you. MP3 is not this disgusting, inferior beast of a format. It's far more convenient than lugging a turntable around, and the human mind fills up the empty space created by lossy audio formats enough for it not to bother most people, even those with great ears.

[Gilbert]

admittedly, tinnitus has probably ruined my ears for any decent listening
plus, the internets are oh so easy to believe!
i'm not that gullible, just questioning how much has been lost due to technology.

[Statik]

Seriously OT, but I would more question the record companies choices of "popular" than to start going after their producers and engineers and such.  I do see his point, and he admits to being an amateur audiophile of sorts.  But I think the major problem that exists in the mainstream recording industry is (just a quick FYI, this is NOT my original thought, I wish I could quote it back to where I read it from, but its long since escaped my mind)  concerned about IMMEDIATE profit, not long term profit.  The writer of the article I read basically said, record labels arent looking for the next clapton, the next rolling stones, the next aerosmith, they are looking to sign whats super duper hot for the next 15 minutes and pump as many records out of them as fast as possible to make as much money in as short a time as possible.  I would wager this could have a lot to do with that article writers issues with modern CDs.  There will always be one hit, or one album wonders, just bands that cannot exist for longer than that no matter, but the recent (~ last 15 years) proliferation of bands that only exist for an album or two and then drop off the face of the earth because the fickle US consumer base left them for dead (figuratively).  I think the "make lots of money now, and just sign someone new in two years" mentality has kind of killed the majority of mainstream music for me...

[KvP]

I think the iPod and lossy audio files aren't the only problem here.

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/weekly_article/imperfect-sound-forever.htm

Fantastic read and touches on a lot of what this thread is about.

Yeah, that was a really great read. And I've suffered from the same "music fatigue" as he has, getting to the point at which I actually get uncomfortable when a song I used to relish starts coming through my headphones. I'm not confident I want to blame it on compression, though, as plausible as it may be. The problem for me is that I am most often active while I listen to music. I've got my mp3 player in my pocket and my headphones are perpetually on. It seems like audiophiles are content to have expensive, relatively delicate equipment that allows them to fully enjoy their music, and they sit down in a quiet place and listen. I don't think I can do that. Plus, my 30 / 60 gig mp3 players wouldn't have the space for all my music were it FLAC or some other lossless format.

[Ballard]

As I said before, these guys are snobs in a way. I'm 100% sure that the author of that article has an iPod which he listens to daily. Separate from that, he has a set-up devoted to hi-fi sound, which many people do.

There's nothing wrong with owning an iPod for convenience's sake. I read the point of the thing as "it is nice to understand more about your music and be able to appreciate it in a dedicated environment at a higher quality as well as on your iPod on a crowded train on the way to work."

[Darkbluerabbit]

How music was meant to be enjoyed.

[Ballard]

That's awesome.

[Gilbert]

going back to my main point...not many people appreciate music as much as us folk do, it just sucks that the expectations seem to be going down? no one is actually hearing what should be heard due to this supposed "compression"? this is just turning into people who love music and people who are fed music.we listen to what we like because we appreciate it, we respect it. lets argue more!!!

[Spinless]

I dig that guy's headphones. I think it's about time I made another pair.


Edit: No, really, my "Red One-eyed Black Jack of Black Hearts" headphones are looking kinda old.

[yossarian07]

Just go for an iPod. They work pretty well and if you want to buy an accessory for it like an FM transmitter then you wont have to look hard.
And iTunes works well as far as a music organizer, but if you buy music from the store you're basically paying for songs but never actually owning them, therefore letting Apple screw you over completely.

[InitiateFailure]

I was checking out mp3 players at circuit city the other day and I've come to some conclusions but have some questions.

The new zune is pretty sweet. I liked the firmware when i friend updated his on the old one, love the big screen, controls and interface. I know this shouldn't be a problem for the average customer but I'm kind of concerned that I'd go over 80 gigs not long after I got the zune. Media player tells me I'm at 55gb plus I have about 300 albums not even on my computer yet so I don't know where exactly that puts me. Is there a higher capacity zune out there?

I thought the Ipod classic kind of sucked, but this opinion is from just the store's floor model which didn't have anything on it to check out the firmware. It seems to me that the screen is smaller than the last generation (looks about the same size as the new nano) plus the new interface only uses the left side of the screen. I don't know if the right has album artwork or something since the store's was empty but it feels like the screen is underused. If anyone has the new Ipod classic, what's the deal with the interface?

I can't decide yet so I guess it's a good thing that my refund check for tuition hasn't come in yet

[Ballard]

I have a previous generation video iPod and my mom has the new iPod Classic. They're about the same, save for the silver color and thinner body. Screen's the same, artwork is displayed in a really nice way (in a collage on the main screen next to the list of sources. you can also scroll through your artwork to pick an album like you've been able to in the last few versions of iTunes). The firmware's the same save for the collage thing and some kickass new games included.

Basically I'd say go with a 160 GB iPod.

[MusicScribbles]

This new 160 GB iPod idea has me drooling. I hate having a Mac that is too old to use Tiger. I need a new Mac.

[Statik]

but if you buy music from the store you're basically paying for songs but never actually owning them, therefore letting Apple screw you over completely.

(Note: I have not kept super current on pay to D/L services and DRM since I stopped having to know anything about it 2 years ago, so feel free to correct me if I get something wrong)
This statement, IMO, is a common misconception of DRM.  While we could have an entire discussion about how DRM can hinder legal users of downloaded files (and Steve Jobs himself has even criticized DRM, saying it hinders legal users and does nothing against illegal users, hackers break DRM easily, CDs without DRM worked fine, and the only reason iTunes HAS DRM is because the "big 4" record labels essentially forced them to in order to do business with apple, which EMI has stopped requiring, btw) ANYWAY, back on track, DRM can hinder a legal user, but for the most part, for a standard user, its not particularly noticeable (at least with iTunes songs)  with other services, they had ridiculous 3 burn limits and 2 computer limits and shit like that, iTunes does limit the number of simultaneous computers able to play it (with account information and all that) and you can transfer your licenses to other computers as you upgrade and such.  I think DRM is shit, for many of the same reasons Jobs does, but thats besides the point.  You DO own the files (and thereby that copy of the song), but they are attempting to put restrictions in order to keep you from sharing the file, just as there are laws saying you are allowed to make personal use copies, but not distribute copies of CDs you purchase at a store, DRM is in place to attempt to "digitally" enforce said laws. 

In conclusion, yes it feels like you dont "own" the file, but you do (and besides, there are easy ways around the DRM, if you are so inclined to get around it)

[Sidonis]

For every 1000 iPods sold, maybe 100 will break. Sometimes, the fault of the user.
For every 1000 creative zens sold, I reckon about 700 of these won't work straight out of the box.

Thank you for basing this post on reliable information!

Seriously, though, I love my Zen to death.  More functional, less expensive, and all-around better than the iPod.  And OP, you do have to do some funky things with naming files -- I've taken to including track numbers in the song titles to make sure it does what it's supposed to do.

[Luke C]

Can someone seriously recommend a non-ipod mp3 player.

I don't like ipod's because I don't like the wheel thing. Dont tell me about it's benefits, I know them already.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

i have shocking data relevent to this conversation.

actually, i just have a question but i've always wanted to say that. anyway, i had 5th gen iPod video for years and it broke recently. i was bummed. so last week i bought an 80 gig classic for myself for my birthday and it's pretty wonderful except for one serious flaw.

played through a tape adapter in my car, it's about half as loud as my old one. changed the volume to max under settings, crank it all the way up, crank all the songs volumes up in iTunes. it's the same, old volume when i play it on my computer but it's ridiculously quiet in my car. it might just be my stereo or my tape adapter or something but i only noticed it with my brand-new iPod. anyone else had similar problems with the new classics?

it's not too big of a deal except some of my music is very quiet and with everything turned all the way up, it's barely audible while driving.

[Ozzman]

Hmmmm.
I've read this whole thing, and I see convincing arguments for both sides..(all three...maybe more?)
I have a Zune, and sure, its MS, but MS did a better job with the Zune than they do with PCs.
By a long shot.

I've got a 1st gen Zune 30.
I love it. (oh and no problems with DRM either.)((yet))

Ok enough ranting about how cool or whatever.
As (from how I see it) the Zune and the iPod are the two big competitors, I'll just use them as examples.
Zune can hold more songs than an iPod (due to the whole format thing) and no, I'm not an audiophile or wtfe they're called..so I haven't noticed any huge difference quality-wise from mp3 to wma.  "Sure," you may say, "but you can just get an 80 or 160 gig iPod"
yes, but you can also boost the hd in the Zune to 80.  (and in one or two cases that I've heard of, they're now making a 160 gb laptop hd that will fit in a Zune such as mine with no problem.)
Later on I can dig up the sites where I've seen FAQs and whatnot.

Next up--yes, the Zune is more durable than the MODERN iPods (at least in my humble experiences).  The old iPods were freakin beasts! but not so much anymore. 
I've dropped my Zune plenty of times and the worst thing to happen is a very slight scratch on the corner of the casing.  My friend dropped his iPod in class, and it was COVERED in fresh scratches.  (no exaggeration, we both right after the fact.)

You may say something like the Zune has a bigger screen, thus more opportunity for scratching...well thats what they make cases for..but even if you don't have a case, the screen still seems to be stronger.  (side note: the Zune screen doesn't seem to be EXACTLY flush with the casing, as the iPod's does.  If you drop it, there's that much less of a chance for scratching.)



Physical aspects..done...now for firmware.
(I'm going to skip software because in my opinion iTunes sucks and Zune (the media manager) sucks.  It could be just that I try to do too much at once...but who knows?)

Firmware--The Zune runs smoother, for the most part, than the iPod (again, in my humble experiences).  The whole thumbnail thing they have going for albums, the whole BIG picture of the CD cover instead of the little one...that's really something I like.  Instead of having to hand off the Zune to show what it is..I just hit a button to light up the screen and BAM, it's there.  On an iPod, however, you have to get all close.
ugh.

There's a few numbers here and there that I can't think of at the moment...so I won't bore you any more with those.


My vote is for the Zune.
(obvious?)




***As a side note, to the guy above me..(I really don't feel like going back and quoting you) my cousin has some sort of hack/mod that he used to edit something in the iPod firmware to boost the volume.  I've got absolutely no idea what he did or how he did it, but if you looked hard enough, you could probably find something somewhere about it.


(I hope I didn't leave the point.)

[FireAarro]

played through a tape adapter in my car, it's about half as loud as my old one. changed the volume to max under settings, crank it all the way up, crank all the songs volumes up in iTunes. it's the same, old volume when i play it on my computer but it's ridiculously quiet in my car. it might just be my stereo or my tape adapter or something but i only noticed it with my brand-new iPod. anyone else had similar problems with the new classics?

it's not too big of a deal except some of my music is very quiet and with everything turned all the way up, it's barely audible while driving.

Possibly an impedance mismatch?

[Czechfury]

played through a tape adapter in my car, it's about half as loud as my old one. changed the volume to max under settings, crank it all the way up, crank all the songs volumes up in iTunes. it's the same, old volume when i play it on my computer but it's ridiculously quiet in my car. it might just be my stereo or my tape adapter or something but i only noticed it with my brand-new iPod. anyone else had similar problems with the new classics?

I have a new ipod which I play on my car stereo through a tape adapter and it seems to work just fine for me.  I did have a problem similar to the one you're having a few months ago, but that turned out to be a combination of a damaged tape adapter and a blown out right speaker.  I got a new tape adapter and it works fine now.

If your ipod's volume is fine when you use it on headphones, it's either a problem with the tape adapter or the stereo.  I'd put money on the problem coming from you adapter, because they can be pretty fickle.

[Statik]

I thought the Ipod classic kind of sucked, but this opinion is from just the store's floor model which didn't have anything on it to check out the firmware. It seems to me that the screen is smaller than the last generation (looks about the same size as the new nano) plus the new interface only uses the left side of the screen. I don't know if the right has album artwork or something since the store's was empty but it feels like the screen is underused. If anyone has the new Ipod classic, what's the deal with the interface?

I can't decide yet so I guess it's a good thing that my refund check for tuition hasn't come in yet

In response to your questions / statements:
The screen isn't smaller, in actuality, AFAIK, the only dimension that has changed is the depth of the ipod, and by like .1 of an inch or some such

The interface only ever used up that part of the screen to begin with (just because the select bar goes all the way across the screen doesnt mean its used), and yes, the blank area on the right side of the screen is used for zoomed in album covers / icons / information.  ie: when you are slected on music, you will see part of an album cover kinda waver around for a few seconds before changing to a different cover.  If you scroll to settings, it tells you how much HDD space you have (although this seems like a silly choice, why would I care how much space I have left while walking around, maybe a more detailed battery read out, whatever, nitpicking)

Also: The screen is still filled horizontally when you get into artist/album lists and such, to allow for longer names.  I assume you didnt think they just used that side of the screen for "grey space" no matter what screen you were on.


Attempting some back on track:

The Zune's screen is not signifigantly bigger than the iPod's.  They both run the same resolution (320x240).  And last I checked... same resolution... bigger screen... pixels are stretched.

Personally, I would not be comfortable voiding my warranty to install a larger HDD in a Zune, if I needed bigger than 80gigs (I dont) I couldve purchased a 160gig iPod.

As far as durability.  Personally, I think its negligible.  If you are buying ANY portable music device, and not buying a case to put it in, you are nuts.  My iPod cost too much money NOT to buy a case.  (I have a hardened plastic case that covers the screen and has rubberized edges that cost me $30.

Also, something that would frustrate me to no end...  I use my ipod the most in my car, driving, second most walking around campus to class (or sitting and waiting for my next class).  I personally have no experience actually USING the zune as such, but how the controls feel, and the screen seem to be against any sort of ease of use in a situation that demands the majority of my attention elsewhere.  Sitting in my car driving, I can make quick glances at the ipod screen and have no problems understanding exactly where it is at, artist or song wise. 

File formats:
wma's are smaller, true, however, I dont care.  wma's are not that much smaller to get me to switch from my ipod.

[Ozzman]

Ah. good points there.
I want to hit the wma thing first though.
no exag.  but I've gotten around...idk...1500 to 2000 more songs...because of wma.
and no..not at anything lower than 128kbps



to the warranty thing
Unless you buy an extended warranty, you're kinda stuck with a year.
After the year, you can do whatever.
Sure, I can understand not wanting to wait a year to expand it..so I just shot my own point out of the water..but idc.

I've got a case for my Zune. (faux leather with something over the front and back wrapped in the leather) and I think it too, cost about $30  I only mentioned it because almost no people that I know actually have a case for their mp3 players.
kinda sad actually...but true.




Obviously, everybody's votes are for something different...
My advice to you (and I think it's already been stated here at least twice but I'm going to reiterate it)
is to test drive the different mp3 players within your price range.
and see what you like the best.


I'm gonna think that pretty much everybody in here will agree on at least that.