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Author Topic: D&D 4th Edition  (Read 75378 times)

Spluff

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #100 on: 28 Feb 2008, 21:06 »

Wait, MMO aspect?

I haven't seen any aspects that were massively multiplayer.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #101 on: 28 Feb 2008, 22:28 »

What I've gathered is that magic users are being powered down so that, at higher levels, they no longer completely dominate gameplay.  This, plus other changes, will lead to the various classes being more balanced such that play at all levels is a bit more enjoyable.  I've googled and found some comprehensive info, but there's so much of it and rather disorganized that it'll take some time to digest.  But, in addition to the changing of classes and races, there's an addition to the rules of resting such that there's a long 6 hour rest period for a full recharge and a short five minute boosting sort of rest for a limited recharge.

In short, I think the new edition is meant to be more accessible, more balanced, and to expedite the flow of gameplay.  Thus, mumorpeger.

Hm, I just found a review from ain't it cool news.  Note, the reviewer is quite in favor of the new system.
« Last Edit: 28 Feb 2008, 22:34 by Surgoshan »
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #102 on: 28 Feb 2008, 22:45 »

In short, I think the new edition is meant to be more accessible, more balanced, and to expedite the flow of gameplay.  Thus, mumorpeger.

Other words that fit here:  fun, appealing, successful, playable, better
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #103 on: 28 Feb 2008, 22:55 »

Okay, I found this, which appears to be a collection of information that's also organized and contains citations. 

All told, the changes appear to be pretty good.  It appears to be influenced toward "customize your character" and adding flavor and orientation rather than min/maxing (this may be a big source of complaints.  There are a lot of rules lawyers and minmaxers out there).
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Spluff

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #104 on: 28 Feb 2008, 23:56 »

Playing a powergamed character is boring and defeats the purpose of the game anyway, imo.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #105 on: 29 Feb 2008, 00:16 »

Yes it does.  I tried DMing a game in college where all of us had been away from the game for several years.  One guy was a power gamer and completely ruined it for everyone else.

Okay, I've done some more reading and I think the mumorpeger complaint is based on the online content coming up.  There's an online play feature that will be available for people who can't get together in one spot to game, there's an online character creator, and the errata will be released both in print and in a consistently updated online patch sorta version.  Oh, and all of this will be available for a monthly fee of something like $10-$15.  Given that none of that will be necessary, just helpful, I don't know if it's a big deal.

Everything else seems to be nerfing complaints, mechanics complaints, and "you're making it too easy for people to learn and play!" rather than "you're making it like a memorpurgar!".  I still don't know much of anything about how the actual mechanics will work to be able to judge these complaints, except in one regard; I think wizards got absurdly powerful and broke the game. 

All told, it's looking interesting and good.  For example;
Quote
    *  Mike Mearls:  "[3E]... assumed that the party fought only one monster. In 4th Edition, were doing things a bit different. Were shifting to a system that assumes a number of monsters equal to the number of characters."

    * A hazard simply fits in in the same way that a monster does: "That makes it much easier to design green slime, pit traps, whirling blades, fountains that spray acid, and crumbling stone walls. One such hazard can simply take the place of one monster, leaving you with three or four monsters in the encounter. Since monster level is a more rigorous measure of power, we can turn those measures and scales around and use them to create environmental hazards, traps, set pieces, and other interesting tactical twists. ... A swaying rope bridge battered by howling air elementals fits under the encounter building system. A burning building that collapses around the PCs as they fight the evil hobgoblin wizard fills a similar role, as does a bizarre altar to Vecna that randomly teleports characters around the room. Hazards, traps, and other dangers simply fill in for one or more creatures in a fight."

I can't recall ever encountering a trap and monsters at the same time, despite the fact it would make for a much more dramatic and interesting encounter.  Elsewhere they talk about making a trap a more involved encounter itself with multiple functioning parts with differing initiative rolls and whatnot.  So in addition to balancing classes, they're trying to make the environment a part of the game rather than just colorful background.  Just like they're making characters customizable, I think they're trying to make the world more customizable for DMs.

Also, they're trying to phase out the sweet spot.  You know, the first few levels are a slog where you have to struggle to survive.  Then you hit smooth sailing where the characters are powerful enough to do what you'd wanted without being so powerful it's not fun.  Then you hit the high levels and either the gameplay has changed so much or the characters are so overpowered or complex that it's not fun any more.  They're trying to make it so that every level is fun and interesting, even if they're fun and interesting in different ways.

Again, I don't know how the mechanics will actually work; the sweet spot problem alone would take a lot of effort to avoid.  However, Wizards has got a whole lot of experience with game systems to help them out.  All in all, I'm really looking forward to this (rogues useful in combat at level 3?  Awesome!)
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #106 on: 29 Feb 2008, 05:57 »

I don't know man...my particular DM group tends to break the system.  We regularly kill DC 21 creatures in less than 5 turns, and we haven't played a single campaign past 8th level characters.  We're not hardcore players or anything either, we just try the zaniest things and they ALWAYS work.  We might not get 4e right away because of this.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #107 on: 29 Feb 2008, 10:55 »

Your DM's name isn't Monte, is it?
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #108 on: 29 Feb 2008, 13:49 »

No, it's Jack.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #109 on: 29 Feb 2008, 17:05 »


I can't recall ever encountering a trap and monsters at the same time, despite the fact it would make for a much more dramatic and interesting encounter.  Elsewhere they talk about making a trap a more involved encounter itself with multiple functioning parts with differing initiative rolls and whatnot.  So in addition to balancing classes, they're trying to make the environment a part of the game rather than just colorful background.

Regardless of how it turns out, it does appear that they at least know what needs improvement. I could build encounters like that myself, but balancing them is a tricky business. If this is done well it'll add a lot of variety and interest to campaigns :)
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #110 on: 29 Feb 2008, 17:22 »

I have encountered traps and encounters at the same time.  One of our party members was a stone golem something-or-other, so he had a nice strength score.  There was a hallway about 100ft long ahead of us.  So this guy gets the bright idea of throwing me, a halfling, the length of the hallway to check for traps.  I got to the last one (there were four), got hit by it, rolled through the door at the end, into two chain golems.

I might as well say that after killing the chain golems and the lesser demon that followed, one character checked a sarcophagus while another decided to attack a pool of blood that was seen on the floor (he was really stoned).  The end result was he destroyed the philactery of a lich as it was rising from the grave.  My DM, who had spent two weeks planning that encounter, decided to take a break for half a year.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #111 on: 29 Feb 2008, 18:18 »

That review is seriously making me reconsider waiting 6 months after release to switch.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #112 on: 29 Feb 2008, 18:34 »

I never thought I'd see the day when AICN would giddily hype something.

I will remain skeptical until I play the game.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #113 on: 01 Mar 2008, 01:39 »

Yes it does.  I tried DMing a game in college where all of us had been away from the game for several years.  One guy was a power gamer and completely ruined it for everyone else.
Power gamers die early in my campaigns.  I'm just saying.  Kobolds have an unusually high critical rate against power gamers.

I think I've come across as a powergaming asshole in this thread and I hope that's not the case.  My problem is that, to me, the changes feel like it's inherently changing the game world of D&D.  I will try and create a more eloquent explanation, but that will have to do for now.  The MMO aspect that is alarming to me is that they are going to make each class more specialized, which will result in the Team Fortress effect.  That is, I'll have to rely on other dumbass players to get things done, meaning I end up dying in the process because some jacktard didn't hold up his end of the bargain.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #114 on: 01 Mar 2008, 01:55 »

Quote
Vancian magic system (Spell slots of the current system) will be dramatically changed. A wizard who casts all his spells will only be at 80% power. A wizard will never completely run out of spells.
Quote
WotC says that what makes a 28th level fighter cool will be the fact that hes a 28th level fighter.
In general, I like the sound of what they're doing ... there's just a lot of minor things that irk me about WotC & D&D. :roll: (ie; beardless dwarven women-folk ... wtf was that for?)
Quote
Stat bonuses for races wont be negative and only positive bonuses will be used.
Which probably won't make that much difference, if it means better positives.

Personally, I prefer Legend of the Five Rings. The only time I use D&D is if it's part of a pc game.
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ackblom12

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #115 on: 01 Mar 2008, 06:48 »

The reason there are only positive racial adjustments is because there are no longer items that enhance stat scores.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #116 on: 01 Mar 2008, 10:33 »

In general, I like the sound of what they're doing ... there's just a lot of minor things that irk me about WotC & D&D. :roll: (ie; beardless dwarven women-folk ... wtf was that for?)

because, my friend whose a fighter AND a girl would never be a dwarf if they had beards.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #117 on: 01 Mar 2008, 10:46 »

I don't know man...my particular DM group tends to break the system.  We regularly kill DC 21 creatures in less than 5 turns, and we haven't played a single campaign past 8th level characters.  We're not hardcore players or anything either, we just try the zaniest things and they ALWAYS work.  We might not get 4e right away because of this.

Kind of like when we strapped my dwarf with powder kegs had me eaten by The Terrasque, i hacked my way out of his gut,and we threw a smalled lit powder keg into the escape hole before it healed over and then ran like hell.

That was one dead Terrasque.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #118 on: 01 Mar 2008, 10:51 »

See, you don't have to be a dwarf to pull that off.  You could use any number of creatures up to 10 ft. tall, and that'd be small enough to be gulped down whole. 
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #119 on: 01 Mar 2008, 11:06 »

Yeah but my dwarf was the only one who was drunk/crazy enough
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #120 on: 01 Mar 2008, 12:48 »

Kind of like when we strapped my dwarf with powder kegs had me eaten by The Terrasque, i hacked my way out of his gut,and we threw a smalled lit powder keg into the escape hole before it healed over and then ran like hell.

That was one dead Terrasque.
It got it to -50 HP and you guys also used a Wish spell to keep it permanently dead?

That's one of those "forgotten" rules about the Terrasque.

Man, your guys stories make me want to make a D&D thread just for telling awesome stories of our groups.  One of the better ones I can think of is when our DM threw an Umber Hulk at our level 2 party.  The Barbarian got a critical hit for something like 46 damage, and then got another critical hit for 30-something.  Two turns, it was completely over-dead.  The DM was like "Well.  I threw that in there to try and get you guys to run away from this situation but that didn't work out too well."  The Barbarian then wore it's head as a helmet.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #121 on: 01 Mar 2008, 20:07 »

Then there was the critical miss that ended up beheading one of our party members.
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Fletch

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #122 on: 01 Mar 2008, 22:14 »

because, my friend whose a fighter AND a girl would never be a dwarf if they had beards.
But that was the thing about dwarves - even their women were man enough to sprout beards.
It's just ... like they're afraid to keep the political incorrectnesses in the official game.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #123 on: 02 Mar 2008, 00:00 »

The whole dwarf beard thing is only part of the campaign setting, not the rules. It's up to your DM (unless they actually decide they'd like to play a forgettable realms campaign).
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #124 on: 02 Mar 2008, 12:07 »

I sincerely doubt it has much to do with political correctness. Reducing a race to essentially one stereotypical template for both genders sounds like an interesting wrinkle for game settings in theory but ends up being somewhat limiting for individual players in practice.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #125 on: 07 Mar 2008, 09:21 »

I'm just worried that new system is going to mess with my Bard.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #126 on: 07 Mar 2008, 11:46 »

Seeing as how the bard isn't included in the PHB this time 'round (probably won't be  released until '09), one could say they're messing with it a bit.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #127 on: 08 Mar 2008, 10:46 »

So, I went to the D&D eXPerience convention just outside of Wash DC last weekend.  There they had previews of 4.0 including some sample 1st level PCs that could be played in a few premade events.  I thought it was a ton of fun.  It was really nice to be even a 1st level character and have more to do in around than "I attack...again" or "I cast my 1 spell, then shoot my xbow".  All characters have "at will" "per encounter" and "per day" abilities which are very dynamic from "I shoot my bow with a nice bonus to hit and damage" to "I hit him so hard it knocks him back a square".  This was just 1st level play and I already felt like it was very involving, unlike in 3.5 where often times one or more characters couldn't contribute because they lacked spells or abilities to contribute in an encounter.  This just seems like more fun for everyone.

That's my thoughts on 4.0.

And to quote someone's sig I saw a few years back:
How many gamers does it take to change a lightbulb?  Change, we don't need no stinkin change!
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Catfish_Man

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #128 on: 09 Mar 2008, 11:34 »

I'll be doing a one-day 4th ed test game next Saturday. I'll post my thoughts afterwards.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #129 on: 09 Mar 2008, 13:06 »

If you can post more crunch over at [urel=http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e]EN World[/url] they'll... well they'll tear it apart and the haters will hate on it while the lovers fangasm on it.  In the end it won't make much difference.

But if you get twizzlers and popcorn you can enjoy the show.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #130 on: 10 Mar 2008, 00:54 »

Actually I was planning on posting at http://www.dragonavenue.com , then linking here, since some friends of mine run it.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #131 on: 16 Mar 2008, 11:38 »

Wooo, that was fun :) More later, busy day today.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #132 on: 16 Mar 2008, 17:30 »

Hurry!  The world needs info!
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #133 on: 19 Mar 2008, 22:37 »

I'm bumping because I finally played through a test adventure with the 4th ed Monsters and Pre-Mades.

The moment 4th Ed comes out 3.x is getting dropped and I will have some books for donation if anyone wants them.

Seriously, the combat we did, took about the same amount of time as 3.x with none of us being familiar with the rules, and so much more shit happened. It was just plain and simply more fun. It honestly felt like a wonderful marriage of 2nd and 3rd ed.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #134 on: 20 Mar 2008, 07:47 »

what kinda of books you got? any Eldritch Might? or Song and Silence?
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #135 on: 20 Mar 2008, 16:22 »

Unfortunately, my 3.x collection isn't particularly extensive. I got the core trio of course, Magic Item Compendium, Expanded Psionics, and the Eberron Campaign Setting.

As soon as June rolls around They're up for grabs.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #136 on: 22 Mar 2008, 12:22 »

I have the entirety of the 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign setting sitting in a corner of my room.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #137 on: 22 Mar 2008, 12:37 »

You might wanna hold on to those.  Word on the street is that a lot of it is getting cut out for 4th edition so they can focus more on the popular parts.  While that does make for a more compelling setting (as almost everyone sets everything in the sword coast or silver marches), it's depressing for us FR fans that like the jungles of Chult or the strange Pantheon of Mulhorand.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #138 on: 06 Jun 2008, 16:57 »

Anyone else get one or more books today?  Anyone of the lucky few who ordered from buy.com and got theirs last week?
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ackblom12

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #139 on: 06 Jun 2008, 21:13 »

Unfortunately, I'm not getting mine in the mail till Monday.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #140 on: 06 Jun 2008, 21:43 »

I got the player's handbook today (not expected until June 9) while I was at my friends' birthday, whom I was going to give it to.  Haven't even opened it yet.  By the way, I ordered from Amazon, I got each of them for 22.50 and free shipping.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #141 on: 06 Jun 2008, 22:58 »

My overnight delivery didn't show up today. :(
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #142 on: 07 Jun 2008, 22:53 »

my review of 4e:

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #143 on: 11 Jun 2008, 03:00 »

Man, pretty much every conversation I've seen re: DnD eventually devolves into a conversation about fucking Terrasques.  It should be like the Godwin's Law of DnD conversations or something, seriously.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #144 on: 11 Jun 2008, 07:01 »

Well, I did see the art for that sucker in the Monster Manual, and I'm sufficiently impressed.  I think that regardless of rule changes, the art has seen at least a small improvement.   I'm probably going to be testing this out with my usual group next week or so.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #145 on: 11 Jun 2008, 16:37 »

I've been reading them the last couple days. Outside of possible fluff, my 3rd ed books will never be touched again.
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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #146 on: 12 Jun 2008, 23:57 »

My 4th Edition Thoughts:
I like just about everything about the actual mechanics and gameplay. I really dig the warlord concept-- It's nice to play a cunning support minded combatant without necessarily having to be a zealous cleric/paladin or lugging around something as lame as a magical mandolin.

My few complaints are thematic, and I feel like it'd be a bit out of line to complain too much on that end before they've had a chance to release much more product.

As for the excluded base classes, I don't really miss them much, especially since they'll probably be around soon again anyway. When it comes to bards, I'll concede that the idea of magical music makes sense, but always thought they stretched the concept pretty far when they make them into a base class. I readily admit to personal bias on this one, but I always thought it would have done better as a PrC even back in 3rd. Barbarians aren't really gone, imo. I always thought it was a bad idea to seperate the idea of a savage warrior from the "fighter" umbrella to begin with. As it is now in 4th edition, you can easily create a "Fighter" who doesn't start off knowing how to properly wear heavy plate, starts with Athletics, Endurance and Intimidation skills plus uses such charming powers as Boundless Endurance and Brute Strike in battle. Sounds like a barbarian to me-- toss in a loincloth, a couple grunts and a cleave and people'll be calling you Conan in no time. I have much the same thoughts on sorcerors-- they've always used the same spells as Wizards, and thematically one improvises while the other prepares. It really wouldn't be that bloody hard to roll up a wizard, say he has some inborn talents and call 'im a sorceror. I'll admit to being a tiny bit perturbed by the exclusion of druids though. I mean, I guess you could just generic things up and play a "druid" as a nature themed cleric and say spells like "Astral Defenders" actually summons a couple of dire bears or whatever, but I suspect that kind of monkeying around with names and descriptions would get a bit tiresome after a while. Same story for evil clerics/paladins. I'm just hung up on druids in particular because I always enjoyed turning into a bear and fucking people up.
« Last Edit: 13 Jun 2008, 00:14 by Whipstitch »
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KvP

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #147 on: 13 Jun 2008, 01:57 »

I don't think they're going to open up much on the evil stuff, at least not for awhile, based on what I've read. A lot of people are bawwwing about the books just out and telling readers that they're supposed to play good characters, and it is pretty hilarious, but I guess they're being honest at least.

Response as far as mechanics and such seems to be positive so far, at least from the people whose opinions generally matter.
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ackblom12

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #148 on: 13 Jun 2008, 07:43 »

I don't know, I've always been annoyed by the fact that Barbarian was a class and not a Template.

Personally I love the idea of the ards though. Of course I'm a real sucker for Norse mythology and tales of Nordic Skalds are particularly fascinating to me, but considering how much work the Bard class needed to make it viable in this game setting, I'm glad they're taking their time with it.
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bryanthelion

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Re: D&D 4th Edition
« Reply #149 on: 17 Jun 2008, 19:41 »

I was supposed to play 4.0 today, but it just HAD to be Bradley's (my brother's) birthday.
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