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[lolwut]

man i just realised how incredibly non-erotic the comic is

i'm assuming that it was done like that on purpose

[laizeohbeets]

No, it isn't, and quite frankly, I'm starting to get annoyed at how often people keep saying that.  Not all of us are closet Fay+Marten shippers. 

Some of us aren't even in the closet. Dora drives me up a wall, and pretty much has from day one.

[AngelofShadows]

I just want to ask, cause it seems to not be brought up yet.....

How is Sven having sex with a hot drunk girl, whom he admits to liking, even if it is only at an artistic level, whilst he himself is also drunk (I gather this from the little drunk bubbles floating over their heads) jumping the shark. Two people get wasted, have sex. Not that uncommon. Sven trying to rationalize his actions is also normal. Just cause you know you shouldn't do something doesn't mean you won't do it anyways.

Besides how can a dude having a one night stand be jumping the shark when there has been a vigilante with a transforming scooter and a talking PC with a freakin laser beam in it's tummy?

[laizeohbeets]

I'm pretty sure it's because Jeph said something to the effect of, "If I draw two people having sex," in the literal act, that he's jumped the shark. Mainly because such a thing would be NSFW. I don't think he's jumped the shark or nuked the fridge. I'm a pretty long-term reader (Started reading in 2005, a lot earlier than when Dora and Marten got together, so I'd put it around Julyish?), and it seemed in character to me. My first thought was, "Uh oh," but more towards "Sven is gonna be in some deep shit," not, "Oh, no, they jumped the shark!"

[spinyhedgehog]

sigh

*giggle*
I'm with Jackie Blue on this still. Sorry guys.
And while you're around Jeph, what happened to Faye's scar?

[jeph]

I'm pretty sure it's because Jeph said something to the effect of, "If I draw two people having sex," in the literal act, that he's jumped the shark. Mainly because such a thing would be NSFW. I don't think he's jumped the shark or nuked the fridge. I'm a pretty long-term reader (Started reading in 2005, a lot earlier than when Dora and Marten got together, so I'd put it around Julyish?), and it seemed in character to me. My first thought was, "Uh oh," but more towards "Sven is gonna be in some deep shit," not, "Oh, no, they jumped the shark!"

And when I said that I'm pretty sure I was thinking of full on explicit sex.

People have been saying my comic "jumped the shark" since literally the 50th comic. It is a useless term.

[celticgeek]

Perhaps it is the shark who has jumped the comic.

[SrMeowMeow]

Perhaps it is the shark who has jumped the comic.

This isn't Soviet Russia.

Well, I came to the discussion forum to post my opinion about this comic. I'm not saying it's artistically invalid, or whatever. I just didn't really like the comic for various reasons. I didn't say I'd stop reading, or try to hold you (Jeph) hostage to my opinions or anything. I also hope I didn't say it in an offensive way. Is it really out of line to talk about comics I don't like as well as ones I do?

[Dunnoe]

@SirMeowMeow: Some of our compadres threatened abandoning QC because of the change in content. I don't think we are trying to stifle opinions (alright I'm not), but

everything is based on perspective. Perhaps Mr. Jacques just loves ridiculous situations. I initially thought QC was set in the near future, especially after the transforming scooter episode and the man-sized purple rat with mexican garb

[ladydraykona]

it's nice Sven is developing a conscience, and that Faye is getting laid, but I'm still confused as to when Sven ever committed himself to Faye, or even agreed to give up being a philandering strumpet.

Can someone with encyclopedic knowledge of the archives point me to Sven giving up on casual sex?

[jeph]

He didn't.

[Surgoshan]

He gave up on casual sex after Faye confronted him about it.  He tried to apologize and then got mauled by the vespavenger (though we didn't know it was her at the time.  

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=686

Later he turned down sex from a bottle blond of previous acquaintance in Faye's presence.

The sequence of events was, Get hit on and compare it to opening a bottle of hooch in front of an alky.  He tried to back out of it and then Faye showed up and gave him an easier excuse.  They have a genuine conversation.  

In short, Faye told Sven he was a jerk.  He agreed, did his best to change.  She told him he was a jerk.  He agreed, and changed some more.  They started hanging out a lot and pushing eachothers' buttons, then she initiated sex.  Sven, seeing it as a genuine relationship, for once, was ready to take it to the next level... and then Faye blew him off.

Which would have been fine!  He would have gotten over it, she would have gotten over it...

Except that she shows up to hang out and the fuck.  And fuck.  And fuck.  

It has become, de facto, a relationship.  She told him, point blank, "You sleep with someone else and I'm gone."  He played it flippant, but it's apparent that he's regretting where this evening has gone.

Why is there drama?  Because he wanted more, but she pulled back.  He pulled her in.  She wasn't willing to accept less.  And now he's fucked up.

That's drama.  And, oddly enough, it's realistic.

Welcome to Questionable Content.

[Surgoshan]

Shit.  I post at length, pointing out where Sven gave up on teh one nighters and The Man Himself comes in and shuts me down... ninja style.

[Dunnoe]

needs moar bamboo forests, katanas, and lacquered masks.

[Mr. Skawronska]

And if "doing something I thought would be interesting" is "pandering" then OH NO I GUESS I'M GUILTY

Guilty?  All righty...I sentence you to an eternity and a day of writing and drawing comics you want to, in complete disregard of the silly and ignorant masses who somehow "get" the "message" you are allegedly stuffing into online entertainment.

Me, I just like reading the comic.  I have my own issues with the characters but that's WHY I read the comic.  As a writer myself, I understand the irritation involved with the "passengers" trying to tell the "pilot" how to fly his aircraft.

Pilot away, Jeph.  I'll be back here in Coach class, snacking on peanuts, enjoying the ride.

And to keep focus on the whole "Oh, Sven..." thing:

Thanks again, Jeph.  That scotch wasn't gonna drink itself.  Hooah!

S

[Twelvth]

I'm not sure what to make of it either. I feel like maybe it's wrong of me to think that (somehow) but it definitely colors my thoughts. If I read a lesbian comic with lots of sexual thoughts from the female protagonist, I would be pretty uncomfortable to find out it was drawn by a man. Somehow that feels pornographic in the hands of a man in a way that it doesn't if it's drawn by a lesbian. Is that wrong? I'm not sure. I'd feel the same way about a comic that contained lots of explicit thoughts and experiences about a male protagonist if it was drawn by a woman, by the way. It seems like vicarious exploration of fantasies rather than something honest. This is obviously more extreme than how I feel about QC sometimes, but I'm just making an argument.

I'm really not sure how I feel about my opinions on this, but I do hold them pretty strongly. I'm happy to debate them, though, and I'm also happy to change my mind.

Ok, so you're not comparing today's QC to Lesbian Pirates from Outer Space. You're comparing the latter to some hypothetical comic that is about lesbians but drawn by a man. It seemed like a strange criticism for today's comic, given that it was about straight sex (which is presumably a topic that a married heterosexual man would have some knowledge of) and written from the man's (Sven's) perspective.

Actually I can understand the point, if not the context.   For instance, I have a fair number of female friends and we make sexual jokes and stuff about eachother.  When the girl who admittedly has had a crush on me does so it feels far more like sexual harassment than when the lesbian does.  It's a similar sort of thing.

To be fair, I don't think any of the left-column peoples ever really had artistic integrity.  Or even artistry, with the possible exception of Eddie Van Halen, who was at least talented.  In their defense, I don't think most of them even know what music is supposed to sound like, so you can't really blame them for "selling out."  They were out to begin with.

Actually I have it on good report that while most members of the Pussycat Dolls ARE in fact probably tone-deaf, at least one of them is also a classical violist.

That's fairly musical by nature.

[lolwut]

Actually I can understand the point, if not the context.

your inability to be comfortable around your straight female friends doesn't mean that the point is valid

[Twelvth]

No, it does, the other straight female friends are fine.

It's a valid point.  It just doesn't necessarily apply.

which does make sense.

[lolwut]

it's not a valid point, though
it's all inferred; it's entirely subjective

[SrMeowMeow]

It's not invalid though, even if it is subjective. For example, I'm a lot more comfortable with a black rapper using the N word than a white rapper.

Look, this really isn't a big deal to me. I just resent the implication that my opinion is invalid because you disagree.

[benji]

For the record, I never meant to imply that your point was invalid, just strange. And I was responding to something that wasn't actually your point (I don't think).

If what you were saying is that it's somehow more problematic for a strait man to portray heterosexual sex acts in his comic then it is for a lesbian to portray lesbian sex acts in hers, that would imply that it is okay for lesbians to make their sexuality public in a way that is off limits to heterosexual men. This is the reverse of how it usually works. People who don't look twice at a strait couple kissing in public react strongly to two women kissing in public. I find this reversal of the double standard a bit odd, but again, it probably wasn't your point.

[KeepACoolin]

To be fair, I don't think any of the left-column peoples ever really had artistic integrity.  Or even artistry, with the possible exception of Eddie Van Halen, who was at least talented.  In their defense, I don't think most of them even know what music is supposed to sound like, so you can't really blame them for "selling out."  They were out to begin with.

Actually I have it on good report that while most members of the Pussycat Dolls ARE in fact probably tone-deaf, at least one of them is also a classical violist.

That's fairly musical by nature.

Touche.  I stand corrected.

[The_Bartender]

sigh

Wow.  Jeph said "sigh".  This must mean he's really exasperated at everyone.  But wait.  He didn't post in capitals.  So he's just kidding.  Oh, no, but he also didn't put an exclamation point after it, so maybe this is an acronym meaning "Simple Idiots, Go Home".  But he didn't put a smilie face after his comment, so he must be serious.

For the sarcasm challenged, the preceding was sarcasm, tinged with irony, intended to be humor.  Or maybe it was humour, with a touch of sarcasm, meant to be ironic.
O hell, whatever!


For Jeph: Sorry.  You created the comic and went public.  The djinni is out of the bottle.  You are now stuck with us, all of us.  From the snarky, pain in the ass indie music lovers to the cranky old guys, from the near obessive 'net stalker types who sends you 20+ emails a week with ideas for the comic to the people who horribly mis-interpret EVERY thing you say and do.  We're here and we won't go away.

Which is good.

For no matter how much you might get annoyed, frustrated or simply completely dumb struck, you've got FANS, and rather passionate ones.  That's way better than many web comics have managed.  I have no doubt it's hard work, and there are times you might want to just flee in terror, but you are a damn good artist who is telling a story people want to see and read.  I hope you can keep it up for another 1300+ strips.

[Guido Sarducci]

I'm not cranky. I'm eeeeeyvil.

[GoldenGryffling]

But I never found the sex scenes to be purely titillating. They build up the individual characters, and part of these characters is that they talk about, and have, sex. Which isn't that unrealistic. In fact, as a woman, I do tend to talk about talk about these things in front of men. So, I just think it's good characterization.

Given the things a couple of my friends have said (and done) while at the pub recently I fully agree with this point. Girls talk and girls shock

[maddness]

Ooohhh, his intern is threatening to tell on him. I'm guessing him come clean.

I'll confess, I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out, but at the same time, I'm sort of cringing at the thought of the dust-up this is going to cause.

[sofiabailote]

Ooohhh, his intern is threatening to tell on him. I'm guessing him come clean.

I'll confess, I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out, but at the same time, I'm sort of cringing at the thought of the dust-up this is going to cause.

Well since now all is lost, maybe he could fuck the intern too. 

and then commit suicide.

[Orbert]

Fuck that stupid intern.  No, not literally.  Well maybe, but that's not the point.

The point is that Sven and Faye are not exclusive, and it's none of her (the intern's) damned business.  Yes, Sven and Faye both seem to think that maybe they are, or should be, or something, even though they said they weren't, but that's not the point either.  The point is that the intern is being a stupid bitch.

[wargrafix]

If he really existed, I would buy Sven a beer.

[ladydraykona]

He didn't.

Thanks for clearing that up! And for being so professional with the comic. I heart regular updates. And it's really amazing seeing how much the art has improved when going back to the early comics and then seeing the latest.  Keep up the good work!

[lolwut]

It's not invalid though, even if it is subjective. For example, I'm a lot more comfortable with a black rapper using the N word than a white rapper.

Look, this really isn't a big deal to me. I just resent the implication that my opinion is invalid because you disagree.

the point is invalid because it's entirely subjective, not because i disagree

it's like saying "green is better than blue" and then when asked why you say "because i like green more"

For the sarcasm challenged, the preceding was sarcasm, tinged with irony, intended to be humor.  Or maybe it was humour, with a touch of sarcasm, meant to be ironic.
O hell, whatever!

sarcasm is a form of irony

[viatriphop]

I think Martin may go back and form reality from his dream and cheat on Dora with the love seat. meanwhile a fight happens between them and they break up. Martin gets a sex change and Dora decides to get one as well. Then they get back together. Faye and Sven end up killing each other mob style and his intern gets the insurance money.
Hanners ends up going to a mental hospital because she accidentally wet the bed while drunk and was never seen again.

And all the computer friends die in a fire. DIAF
OHHHHHHHHHH SNAP

[lolwut]

who the fuck is martin

[SrMeowMeow]

the point is invalid because it's entirely subjective, not because i disagree

it's like saying "green is better than blue" and then when asked why you say "because i like green more

No, it's like you saying "green is better than blue", me saying "blue is better than green", and those both being opinions.

The blanket statement that "all forms of humor should be equal" or "perspective shouldn't matter" is not somehow true on its own merits.

Seriously, can we just let it go? I feel like a tool arguing this much about the content of a comic. I just am unwilling to see it end on the note of you saying me being wrong is somehow fact. I'm just stubborn, I guess. Can we agree to disagree?

[lolwut]

the point is invalid because it's entirely subjective, not because i disagree

it's like saying "green is better than blue" and then when asked why you say "because i like green more

No, it's like you saying "green is better than blue", me saying "blue is better than green", and those both being opinions.

The blanket statement that "all forms of humor should be equal" or "perspective shouldn't matter" is not somehow true on its own merits.

Seriously, can we just let it go? I feel like a tool arguing this much about the content of a comic. I just am unwilling to see it end on the note of you saying me being wrong is somehow fact. I'm just stubborn, I guess. Can we agree to disagree?

man i'm not going to let you get the last word on this if you keep saying that your reasoning being entirely subjective doesn't invalidate your argument

don't make me do it

[KeepACoolin]

There are some things that can only be talked about subjectively: humor/art happens to be one of them.  There is no such thing as an objective conversation about a comic. 

[Is it cold in here?]

who the fuck is martin

He lives with Fay, in the same apartment building as Hannelore. They're all in some alternate reality version of QC, where everyone has the same personalities and does the same things but their names are different.

[Banana Moustache]

I just am unwilling to see it end on the note of you saying me being wrong is somehow fact. I'm just stubborn, I guess. Can we agree to disagree?

Because this is the internet, no.  No one can ever agree to disagree. 

Secondly, the very fact that Sven feels bad about sleeping with someone is character development.  And because there is character development, the story is moving forward. With the story moving forward, I am happy.  No stagnation pls kthx

[viatriphop]

who the fuck is martin

Its the more common way of spelling Marten.GAH I'm such a bad person for not obsessing over fictional characters name spelling. Let me get my pen and paper so I can write their names over and over and over for eternity because its soo fucking important.

[viatriphop]

who the fuck is martin

He lives with Fay, in the same apartment building as Hannelore. They're all in some alternate reality version of QC, where everyone has the same personalities and does the same things but their names are different.

Crazy world. I heard they use different font though.

[Surgoshan]

They type their papers up 1.5 spaced in 13 point wingdings with .89" margins.

[SrMeowMeow]

I do think this will lead to a good shake-up, and that's completely separate from my other (pretty minor) criticisms. I like the way Sven obeyed the letter and maybe not the spirit of his relationship with Faye and how he knows he's going to get his shit wrecked in some way but thinks it's unfair. It should be interesting, especially considering Marten's likely to take Faye's side and Dora Sven's. It should be fun to read.

[lolwut]

I do think this will lead to a good shake-up, and that's completely separate from my other (pretty minor) criticisms. I like the way Sven obeyed the letter and maybe not the spirit of his relationship with Faye and how he knows he's going to get his shit wrecked in some way but thinks it's unfair. It should be interesting, especially considering Marten's likely to take Faye's side and Dora Sven's. It should be fun to read.

and for the last fucking time, it is completely unfair damnit

[JackFaerie]

I didn't say that Jeph has "sold out", I just think that he has been increasingly writing to his new audience instead of his old audience.

Old audience: Indie rockers in their early-mid 20s.

New audience: Teenagers who think the bands mentioned in the strip are made-up.

Ok, I don't agree with the description of the "new audience" but sure, the comic moved away from its original concept and humor style to a more soap opera model.  This happened a while ago.  But you know what?  This ALWAYS happens.

In every webcomic I've ever read that had a vibrant cast and plot arcs of some sort that depended on character interaction/evolution and wasn't a gag-a-day format.  The original type of humor gets replaced, initial cast members get dropped, and thing... oh no! change.  This isn't awful, it's just how it is, because most first concepts aren't fertile enough to carry on through in their initial format for longer than a year or two.  At that point either you continue reading because you enjoy the new format, or you go away.  But it's useless to complain in this case, imo.  And also imo, QC is one of the better types of comics because (at this point) the soap opera is engaging and enjoyable.  I have much more issue with comics that don't go the soap opera route and instead try vainly to keep on doing their original format after the writer already burned out on it, without any of the charm or wit.  Ie: most print comics in newspapers that started off cute and fresh, and are head-thumping dull after a few years.  Actually, you'll notice that even there, a lot of writers switch to soap-opera after the first two-year period--this is just how storytelling works. 

So the way it goes is: first mostly humor, a little story-->characters develop, soap-opera-ish story takes over-->soap-opera becomes ridiculous, everyone gets sick of the thing.

The first step is fine, the second step is fine too, and the "good" authors in my mind are those that can stop before the third.  And I don't think Jeph is anywhere near the 3rd step yet.

(As far as webcomics go, I think "Boy Meets Boy" worked pretty well with this pattern: it started off as a humor comic, as the humor fell off it moved towards drama (and the drama was specifically provided to replace the humor as the main interest/draw) , and then the author ended it just about the time the drama was getting so thick it was about to consume itself.  If anyone remembers the children's book Dragons series by Patricia Wrede, it was even applicable there: first book, clever and funny.  Second book--less funny, but the romance and drama made up for it.  Third book... um, ugh.)

[lolwut]

I didn't say that Jeph has "sold out", I just think that he has been increasingly writing to his new audience instead of his old audience.

Old audience: Indie rockers in their early-mid 20s.

New audience: Teenagers who think the bands mentioned in the strip are made-up.

Ok, I don't agree with the description of the "new audience" but sure, the comic moved away from its original concept and humor style to a more soap opera model.  This happened a while ago.  But you know what?  This ALWAYS happens.

In every webcomic I've ever read that had a vibrant cast and plot arcs of some sort that depended on character interaction/evolution and wasn't a gag-a-day format.  The original type of humor gets replaced, initial cast members get dropped, and thing... oh no! change.  This isn't awful, it's just how it is, because most first concepts aren't fertile enough to carry on through in their initial format for longer than a year or two.  At that point either you continue reading because you enjoy the new format, or you go away.  But it's useless to complain in this case, imo.  And also imo, QC is one of the better types of comics because (at this point) the soap opera is engaging and enjoyable.  I have much more issue with comics that don't go the soap opera route and instead try vainly to keep on doing their original format after the writer already burned out on it, without any of the charm or wit.  Ie: most print comics in newspapers that started off cute and fresh, and are head-thumping dull after a few years.  Actually, you'll notice that even there, a lot of writers switch to soap-opera after the first two-year period--this is just how storytelling works. 

So the way it goes is: first mostly humor, a little story-->characters develop, soap-opera-ish story takes over-->soap-opera becomes ridiculous, everyone gets sick of the thing.

The first step is fine, the second step is fine too, and the "good" authors in my mind are those that can stop before the third.  And I don't think Jeph is anywhere near the 3rd step yet.

(As far as webcomics go, I think "Boy Meets Boy" worked pretty well with this pattern: it started off as a humor comic, as the humor fell off it moved towards drama (and the drama was specifically provided to replace the humor as the main interest/draw) , and then the author ended it just about the time the drama was getting so thick it was about to consume itself.  If anyone remembers the children's book Dragons series by Patricia Wrede, it was even applicable there: first book, clever and funny.  Second book--less funny, but the romance and drama made up for it.  Third book... um, ugh.)

overcompensating?

also jeph agrees with you on the audience thing

[SrMeowMeow]

and for the last fucking time, it is completely unfair damnit

If you could maybe respond to someone else for a bit that'd rock. I don't know what you mean or who you are or if you're even being serious or just trolling me, so...yeah.

[The_Bartender]

For the sarcasm challenged, the preceding was sarcasm, tinged with irony, intended to be humor.  Or maybe it was humour, with a touch of sarcasm, meant to be ironic.
O hell, whatever!

sarcasm is a form of irony
[/quote]

Which was part of the point.

There are some things that can only be talked about subjectively: humor/art happens to be one of them.  There is no such thing as an objective conversation about a comic. 

Well, to be obssessive about this, you could discuss technical issues like number of panels, fact issues like the pacing (multiple pages over weeks = only a few hours of story time) or in the case of print comics, page content and print quality.

But your point, and I agree, is that any discussion of any form of art is always going to be primarily subjective.  As for the validity, everyone's opinion is correct, even if only to that person.  (Well, unless you are schizophrenic (sp?), then it could get complicated)

Regarding selling out: Many have ackowledged that Jeph's ability at drawing has improved and consider it a good thing.  Why, because his story telling abilities improved (granted, my opinion) and thus the story has become more invovled and complciated, is it considered "selling out".    The comic has been running for 5 1/2 years.  It would be truly weird if things HADN'T changed.  Every artist puts something of themselves into their work.  Picasso's paintings became more dramatic, Frank Lloyd Wright's designs evolved, and there is hardly an author I can think of whose story telling ability didn't improve with time.  For me, the same applies here.  Without sounding too heavy, maybe the reason the story has changed (improved, in my opinion) is becaue the writer has matured, not because he's selling out.

[fifthfiend]

But so what'd be really great, is instead of all this Sven crap, some comics about Steve.

[Guido Sarducci]

got a pen? Got some paper? Get to it.

[bhtooefr]

Last time someone asked for more comics about Steve, we got...

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1273