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Poll

The Moment Of The Week (Yeah, we're doing it again):

Caring Hannelore cares!
- 9 (7.6%)
"You're a terrible influence, alcohol-induced hallucination."
- 18 (15.1%)
Where's Faye's Bra?
- 7 (5.9%)
Some kind of creepy trophy...
- 1 (0.8%)
Sheer Intensity of Makeouts?
- 4 (3.4%)
Quantum Tunnelling effect
- 9 (7.6%)
Please tell me you did not drink that entire bottle
- 0 (0%)
That was a terrible idea.
- 3 (2.5%)
At least ONE of us isn't gonna remember this in the morning.
- 15 (12.6%)
Did I say anything stupid last night? No, you were fine.
- 6 (5%)
OWLS. Owls? OWLS.
- 38 (31.9%)
So, do you want me to kill Dora for you?
- 6 (5%)
Love you too, mom.
- 3 (2.5%)

Total Members Voted: 102


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Author Topic: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)  (Read 150082 times)

Varian7

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #350 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:35 »

I really hope Faye forgives Marten, it would be a shame if he lost his best friend along with his girlfriend at this point.
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Castlerook

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #351 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:36 »

EvilDog, I'm having trouble following your argument here. In the first paragraph you seem to shout "J'accuse!" at Faye for somehow giving her loyalties over to Dora, and then you opine that Marten desperately needs alone time and to be apart from everyone. This seems somewhat mutually exclusive--he needs hugs, but GO AWAY.

My apologies if I wasn't clear. It just seems that Dora seems to be getting a lot of sympathy from the others, while Marten has barely gotten a "How are you feeling?" There is a difference between needing to be left alone and to be given some space. Marten most likely needs to be left alone, and needs to be given some space. But at the same time, his friends should feel concern for Marten, but also know when they aren't helping by being up in his face. Sorry if there was some confusion there.

Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Cue another 10 pages by the time the next comic is posted.
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The Dandy Inferno

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #352 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:42 »

This isn't bottom - not yet.  Now, if Dora went over to Martin's to apologize and Martin drunkenly says something to irrevocably destroy any hope of them getting back together... then proceeds with his little bitter-fest vs. Faye, Sven and Angus (and everyone else, 'cause hey!) mixed with some depression-induced heavy drinking... and, oh... hmm... oH!  

It's all webcomic zen?  Faye's happiness is going up, so Marten's has to go down to compensate?

That's when rocks fall and everyone dies.

Or it was all a dreeeeeeeeaaaaam...
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #353 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:45 »

We should be gentle in applying-real world standards to the things that went on in this strip. What Marten did could fit the definition of sexual assault in some states (though more likely a milder variation on the offense). OTOH, if this were real-life Faye could have just killed him there. A concussion on top of a bottle of bourbon could very easily mean you pass out and never wake up.
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ErrantCanadian

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #354 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:46 »

EvilDog, I'm having trouble following your argument here. In the first paragraph you seem to shout "J'accuse!" at Faye for somehow giving her loyalties over to Dora, and then you opine that Marten desperately needs alone time and to be apart from everyone. This seems somewhat mutually exclusive--he needs hugs, but GO AWAY.

My apologies if I wasn't clear. It just seems that Dora seems to be getting a lot of sympathy from the others, while Marten has barely gotten a "How are you feeling?"

That's... not true at all.  Hanners bringing the worry hat and Hanners drinking on that filthy couch.  Marten's mom flying in.  Faye helping Marten process the ridiculousness of Dora's paranoia, raging out a bit, and then accepting Marten's point of view to stay calm.  Tai hugging Marten.  Faye coming home early to make sure Marten's OK.  

Clearly, this sucks for everyone in their social circle, and so far, Hanners is kind of still a friend to both, Faye is/was still closer to Marten, Tai is definitely closer to Marten, and Sven of course is on Dora's side, but still nice to Marten (in his horribly unhelpful way.)  I don't think Dora is getting all the sympathy while Marten is suffering alone AT ALL.
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ravine33

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #355 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:48 »

All of this happening... just... so... sad. :(

As for the debate over Marten and Faye's behavior, I don't really see it as a huge deal. I mean, he said some things he shouldn't have while drunk and she punched him. Apologies are in order and I think sufficient considering the situation. I mean, seriously, if a guy friend of mine made a move on me while drunk, I'd probably punch him too.
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Odin

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #356 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:57 »

We should be gentle in applying-real world standards to the things that went on in this strip. What Marten did could fit the definition of sexual assault in some states (though more likely a milder variation on the offense). OTOH, if this were real-life Faye could have just killed him there. A concussion on top of a bottle of bourbon could very easily mean you pass out and never wake up.

There is a part of me that kind of hopes this happens, if only for the massive drama bomb fallout that would happen after.

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #357 on: 15 Dec 2010, 08:59 »

Yeah, attempted sexual assault nullifies all that. I hope Angus kicks his ass too.

I don't buy that. A drunk dude moving in for a kiss you don't want is licence to shove him off, not punch him hard enough to knock him over and leave him sprawled on the ground with cartoon stars of unconsciousness floating above him.

Eh, it's Faye. She punches people. That's part of her character.

Didn't say it was out of character! Just a shitty thing to do. Apologies are warranted on both sides, here.
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cmdrfalafel

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #358 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:03 »

Re: how sad this is

Same here - this was a heartbreaking strip to read. For me, even more so than the breakup. I'm having trouble speculating about the ramifications in future strips because I can't quite figure out how seriously this will be treated. I think it's because today defied by expectations for QC so much (not in a bad way... just in a... um, defying way).

(back to lurk-and-continued-observations)

(oh, hi, this is a bummer of a first post ever here)
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #359 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:03 »

Quote
A concussion on top of a bottle of bourbon could very easily mean you pass out and never wake up.

And wouldn't that be a pisser over the next hundred comics or so.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #360 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:05 »

Quote
A concussion on top of a bottle of bourbon could very easily mean you pass out and never wake up.

And wouldn't that be a pisser over the next hundred comics or so.

Marten dies, comic lives on. I could totally see it happening and becoming a much better comic because of it (Angus replaces Marten!).

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #361 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:07 »

That's... not true at all.  Hanners bringing the worry hat and Hanners drinking on that filthy couch.  Marten's mom flying in.  Faye helping Marten process the ridiculousness of Dora's paranoia, raging out a bit, and then accepting Marten's point of view to stay calm.  Tai hugging Marten.  Faye coming home early to make sure Marten's OK.  

Clearly, this sucks for everyone in their social circle, and so far, Hanners is kind of still a friend to both, Faye is/was still closer to Marten, Tai is definitely closer to Marten, and Sven of course is on Dora's side, but still nice to Marten (in his horribly unhelpful way.)  I don't think Dora is getting all the sympathy while Marten is suffering alone AT ALL.

But like I've said, neither Hanners, Tai or Sven really know what Marten is going through, they've said nice things, but they haven't been comforting. Hanners gave Marten his worry hat back but still treated him like a child, admittedly, because of they way Marten explained about how the worry hat worked, and Hanners has slept on that couch on at least two occasions, sitting on it is alright after a scalding shower. Tai just thinks that Marten is missing free coffee and baked goods, and even insulted him before giving him a hug (which is negated but the bad attempt at a nipple joke). Sven? Well, Sven acted like Sven. Veronica invited herself even despite Marten's protests.

As for Faye, so ok, she cut her evening with Angus short, but the fact remains that she still spent enough of the evening with him for some heavy petting (enough to lose her bra anyway). Look at when Sven slept with Gina Riversmith. Marten went home and comforted Faye, put an arm around her. Now that Dora and Marten have broken up, Faye has threatened violence, then again, there probably isn't a day where the resident southern belle hasn't threatened someone with violence. But she never asked if he was ok. As far as I can see, no one has asked Marten "If he is alright". It isn't much, but those four words can do more for someone than what the others have done.
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ErrantCanadian

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #362 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:07 »

We should be gentle in applying-real world standards to the things that went on in this strip. What Marten did could fit the definition of sexual assault in some states (though more likely a milder variation on the offense). OTOH, if this were real-life Faye could have just killed him there. A concussion on top of a bottle of bourbon could very easily mean you pass out and never wake up.

I don't think anyone would think Marten was guilty of any type of sexual assault for bringing his face slightly closer to Faye's and suggesting they should make out.  Nobody was forced into anything and Faye clearly stopped that train of thought before it got to the station.  She said no really forcefully by shoving or punching him away.  She didn't give him a chance to back off; she made sure he wasn't in a position to.  And I think even drunk, if she had said no, Marten would have respected THAT line. If he hadn't, that would have brought him into assault territory.

I've been assaulted and I've been a recipient of unwanted advances from drunk friends.  They're different situations completely, and the drunk friend clumsily hitting on you is not a bad person.

It's also not sexual harassment - it's definitely an awkward and unwanted drunken advance, but it lacks the foresight and coercive/persistent nature that I think really defines harassment.

People making unwanted advances can be annoying, but there's a difference between feeling like "Argh, I so don't want to deal with this friend drama, can I just be somewhere else right now" and "Holy crap this huge guy will not let go of me and it's late and this street is deserted" or "If I say no to my boss, will I lose my job?"  Can we not trivialize sexual assault by pretending this is anything near that please?
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Wiregeek

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #363 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:12 »

Quote
Can we not trivialize sexual assault by pretending this is anything near that please?


And on that note, I'm fucking done. I'll catch you cool cats thursday evening or friday evening, depending on whether I die on the flight down or not.
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ErrantCanadian

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #364 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:17 »


But like I've said, neither Hanners, Tai or Sven really know what Marten is going through, they've said nice things, but they haven't been comforting.

I'm not sure where you're getting this, it looks like they have been doing their best.  And your friends don't need to know precisely what you're going through to help you through a rough time.  

Quote
As for Faye, so ok, she cut her evening with Angus short, but the fact remains that she still spent enough of the evening with him for some heavy petting (enough to lose her bra anyway)... But she never asked if he was ok.
Well, Angus is her boyfriend. She's not abandoning Marten.  She lives with him and she's been there, although giving him space.  Which he sort of indicated he needed by shutting the door after he came home from the breakup.

Quote
As far as I can see, no one has asked Marten "If he is alright". It isn't much, but those four words can do more for someone than what the others have done.
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1806 "Well?  Is it helping?"
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1810 "Yeah, I'm OK" (Clearly answering his mom's question "Are you OK?")
http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1816 "Are you going to be all right?"

I think you are projecting your past experiences with your friends onto Marten a bit.  I think they're there, but Marten clearly needs to communicate with them better about his feelings, which he doesn't do much to start with.
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 09:44 by ErrantCanadian »
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Delator

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #365 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:40 »

OK, I've had some time to digest this strip a little, so I'll just make a couple of points.

...not going to go back through however many pages to remember who said what.

Someone said the cast of QC might move through and past this far easier than we're spazzing out discussing it. I think that's probably what will happen. I hope so anyways...

Regarding Faye's use of violence; I was about to jump down her throat for hitting Cosette with a magazine, so you're not likely to find a bigger critic of her violent tendencies than me. In this instance, however, I feel she was completely justified.

That said, I agree with what someone else said - panel 3 could be read as some sort of drunken joke, albeit in poor taste.

Look at panel 1...that's the "happiest" we've seen Marten since the Porn Argument started, and his best friend just arrived. His response to her comment seems to call back to the witty drunken banter Faye and Marten shared pre #500...

...and then she jumps down his throat about his alcohol use. Talk about a buzz-kill. Yeah, it's not healthy, but fuck...he's a grown man who just got dumped. If he can't get hammered now, then when??

The combination of emotion and alcohol, coupled with basically the complete opposite interaction with Faye from what he was expecting, caused him to then do the exact same thing in return...which was basically be a dick and make a pass.

Do I think he was making some bad drunken joke? No. Do I think he could have been joking? Maybe...but it's doubtful, as others have pointed out how alcohol gets us to be more "truthful" than we would tend to be.

And none of that's to say that Marten wasn't an asshole in panels 2 and especially 3...he was a complete asshole. If it was a joke, it was a terrible one. There was however, precedent, as another poster noted, for those close to him to be kind of glossing over the crap he's been going through. Marten's not one to dwell on that kinda thing from most people, but Faye's his best friend...the last thing he needed was a lecture.

The worst part is that Faye should have known better than to jump on him...she said it was pot/kettle territory, but jeez, Faye, look how you reacted when people called you on your shit when you were drinking. What did you think was going to happen?

She was expecting The Doormat again. It doesn't excuse Marten's actions...but Faye dun goofed.

...and now we get the fallout.

Does this even reach Dora's ears??  :psyduck:
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JackFaerie

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #366 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:45 »

I don't buy that. A drunk dude moving in for a kiss you don't want is licence to shove him off, not punch him hard enough to knock him over and leave him sprawled on the ground with cartoon stars of unconsciousness floating above him.

A drunk guy putting his arms around me to forcibly draw me in for a kiss I've made CLEAR I don't want deserves whatever my panic-flight response gives him, whether it be a hard punch or a knee to the nuts. Especially since if we're talking about me and not Faye, I don't think I would have the strength or leverage to shove him off easily. (I'm small. Drunk dudes lean on you and are heavy.)

That said, I don't think Faye used excessive force here. I doubt she jackhammered the guy. He was already drunk and unsteady, I'd buy that he went down from a basic "get away from me!" punch.

I also don't think that, even though imo Marten was definitely verging on sexual assault, this is going to leave Faye traumatized or anything. She's just going to be pissed, but understand the extenuating circumstances. (She may also remain pretty seriously pissed for a bit even understanding the extenuating circumstances.)
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 09:51 by JackFaerie »
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Laminator_X

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #367 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:55 »

We should be gentle in applying-real world standards to the things that went on in this strip. What Marten did could fit the definition of sexual assault in some states (though more likely a milder variation on the offense). OTOH, if this were real-life Faye could have just killed him there. A concussion on top of a bottle of bourbon could very easily mean you pass out and never wake up.

I don't think anyone would think Marten was guilty of any type of sexual assault for bringing his face slightly closer to Faye's and suggesting they should make out.  Nobody was forced into anything and Faye clearly stopped that train of thought before it got to the station.  She said no really forcefully by shoving or punching him away.  She didn't give him a chance to back off; she made sure he wasn't in a position to.  And I think even drunk, if she had said no, Marten would have respected THAT line. If he hadn't, that would have brought him into assault territory.

I've been assaulted and I've been a recipient of unwanted advances from drunk friends.  They're different situations completely, and the drunk friend clumsily hitting on you is not a bad person.

It's also not sexual harassment - it's definitely an awkward and unwanted drunken advance, but it lacks the foresight and coercive/persistent nature that I think really defines harassment.

People making unwanted advances can be annoying, but there's a difference between feeling like "Argh, I so don't want to deal with this friend drama, can I just be somewhere else right now" and "Holy crap this huge guy will not let go of me and it's late and this street is deserted" or "If I say no to my boss, will I lose my job?"  Can we not trivialize sexual assault by pretending this is anything near that please?

It certainly isn't.  Since he had his arm around her, there are misdemeanor charges available in a lot of places with names like "molestation" or "lascivious conduct" that could be brought if somebody wanted to push it.
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Border Reiver

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #368 on: 15 Dec 2010, 09:58 »

So who's next on the list?

(I'm presuming mods are immune and get pimp-tastic robes for the ceremony.)

Not sure, the mods maintain the lists, wait a minute!

Do you hear that?

The sound of a not-quite human step outside the door.  The feeling that the angles are no longer quite right?

Crap!

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #369 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:07 »

Note to self: worry hats are a useless defence against girly punching.

Nothing girly about it.

Well, seems to me Dora was actually RIGHT to an extent.  Marten is betraying a little flame for Faye here.

Nah, I'd say it's a simpler "I'm drunk, she's hot" situation, although I could be wrong.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #370 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:08 »

I don't buy that. A drunk dude moving in for a kiss you don't want is licence to shove him off, not punch him hard enough to knock him over and leave him sprawled on the ground with cartoon stars of unconsciousness floating above him.
...
That said, I don't think Faye used excessive force here. I doubt she jackhammered the guy. He was already drunk and unsteady, I'd buy that he went down from a basic "get away from me!" punch.
...

Well, that depends to a large degree on how you interpret that last panel. Between her words and the stars, I sure took it to mean that she'd KO'd him.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #371 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:12 »

I can't help but wonder if Marten was somewhat reacting to what Dora told him when they broke up. I mean, the reason Dora said she broke up with him was because she was worried he still had feelings for Faye, right? Perhaps in his drunken state he thought he might as well do what Dora obviously expected of him, which is basically act like a jerk and go after Faye.

Personally, I predict that Marten's going to wake up hungover, Faye (or someone Faye told) will explain how he acted while he was drunk, he'll feel terrible, things will be awkward between Faye and him for a while, and then Marten will apologise and be forgiven, although things may not return entirely to normal immediately.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #372 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:14 »

Well, that depends to a large degree on how you interpret that last panel. Between her words and the stars, I sure took it to mean that she'd KO'd him.

When Faye punched Raven to the floor, she had stars, but was still conscious - because she said how pretty the stars were.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #373 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:22 »

I kinda assumed that Faye's last statement was to be taken as "I knocked you out, so you probably won't remember what you've done when you wake up"...
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #374 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:25 »

I can't help but wonder if Marten was somewhat reacting to what Dora told him when they broke up. I mean, the reason Dora said she broke up with him was because she was worried he still had feelings for Faye, right? Perhaps in his drunken state he thought he might as well do what Dora obviously expected of him, which is basically act like a jerk and go after Faye.

Oooh, I never considered that maybe, just maybe, Marty might subconsciously blame Faye for the break-up and that's what we're seeing here. 

Keyword there was "subconscious".  Probably should even make it "drunken, liquor-tainted subconscious".

I kinda assumed that Faye's last statement was to be taken as "I knocked you out, so you probably won't remember what you've done when you wake up"...

I took it as a reference to him downing a whole bottle of bourbon.  Used to call that 'erasing the mind' back in the day, myself.  Lord knows she'd have plenty of experience with morning-after-bourbon side-effects.
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 10:27 by GeoffTheLlama »
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azurite

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #375 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:29 »

1) Sorry, can't see that right hand in the third panel. It's kind of angled toward Faye's special area, and dude, NOT OKAY. Drunk friend, even drunk best friend, starts spewing out entitlement garbage about how he "paved the way" for other guys to fuck me then starts with the "gimme a kiss" and wandering hands, that has the potential to be frightening. It's not rape, of course it isn't, but that would be traumatizing (or triggering) for a lot of people; it might even have a long-term impact on my ability to trust that friend, rationally justified or not.

2) Even without a crotch grab, responding to a gentle shove and "you're being a dick" with "Oh yeah? That's what you like" doesn't indicate that is an individual who is going to take no for an answer. At that point, whatever you need to do to disable the guy from pushing the issue further, relative to the situation. A slap is justified. Shoving him away is justified. Immediately leaving the apartment is justified. Knocking him out is justified. Punching him more than once would've been extreme. Beating on him more than necessary to disable further advances would've been extreme. Homicide, that would've been extreme.

3) This is, however, the point where Faye finds Steven's phone number, gets a MALE friend to babysit Marten ASAP, and heads back over to Angus'. What Marten just did was damn disrespectful as well as a hefty violation of boundaries they'd worked hard to establish. If Faye needs to get away from Marten at least until he sobers back up, she should do it.  From their established relationship, they'll probably apologize to each other in the morning, with Marten acknowledging that Faye kept the situation from getting any worse and Faye acknowledging that punching him in the face was a little harsh, but all the same, she doesn't want to see her friend mess up his life with booze, like she almost did. Jokes will be made about the bourbon monster, I'm sure.

4) Marten got wasted when he knew he was in a dangerous place. He also knew that Faye would probably be home later that night. Look: alcohol doesn't transform you into a strange new person you have no previous acquaintance with, it brings behaviors you are normally able to repress to the surface. You're still responsible for who you are when you are drunk--AT THE VERY LEAST, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING DRUNK IN THE FIRST PLACE. Hanners told him it wasn't a good idea; Faye, who is not being hypocritical as much as speaking from experience, told him it was a terrible idea. (P.S.: sixteen words does not a lecture make.) And it was. A Terrible. Idea. That boy earned himself a shiner!

4) If Dora seems to be getting more support (...I'm not sure she is, but I'm gonna go with it to make this point) ...it's because she's been more receptive. If hesitantly, she accepted Faye's offer for a reference to a therapist. She's talking about what happened openly with her brother. She's not locking doors and numbing her pain with booze. She's working on herself and making necessary changes to her life. Marten will get there eventually, but right now, he's not dealing with his pain in a very mature way. That is going to alienate his friends.
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 10:40 by azurite »
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AnAverageWriter

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #376 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:30 »

I took it as a reference to him downing a whole bottle of bourbon. 

I would have as well, if Faye's statement hadn't been a muttered response to the sound thrashing she gave him. He didn't pass out- he was soundly walloped out.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #377 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:31 »

Quote
A concussion on top of a bottle of bourbon could very easily mean you pass out and never wake up.

And wouldn't that be a pisser over the next hundred comics or so.

Marten dies, comic lives on. I could totally see it happening and becoming a much better comic because of it
Heh. Marten dies, comic barely slows down. People making inappropriate comments and stream-of-consciousness jokes when they find he's not moving. Wisecracking coroners joking bawdily about rigor mortis. People divvying up his record collection and making indie jokes. Yeah, I can kinda see that happening. ;)
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #378 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:40 »

  Who's Faye's gonna lean on now?  She doesn't know Angus well enough yet, and she sure as hell can't tell Dora about this.  Who's left?   

Hanners?

I'm highly tempted to just post a youtube link to M. Bison's "Yes! Yes!" video...but I don't think anyone does that sort of thing on these forums.

go right ahead, i'm still waiting to see Angus go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR44oOYjvOw about his relationship with Faye
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #379 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:48 »

1) Sorry, can't see that right hand in the third panel. It's kind of angled toward Faye's special area, and dude, NOT OKAY. Drunk friend, even drunk best friend, starts spewing out entitlement garbage about how he "paved the way" for other guys to fuck me then starts with the "gimme a kiss" and wandering hands, that has the potential to be frightening. It's not rape, of course it isn't, but that would be traumatizing (or triggering) for a lot of people; it might even have a long-term impact on my ability to trust that friend, rationally justified or not.

woaw woaw woaw, this is marten we are talking about, theres no way in a million years he is touching her crouch in panel 3.
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Laminator_X

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #380 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:49 »

2) Even without a crotch grab, responding to a gentle shove and "you're being a dick" with "Oh yeah? That's what you like" doesn't indicate that is an individual who is going to take no for an answer. At that point, whatever you need to do to disable the guy from pushing the issue further, relative to the situation. A slap is justified. Shoving him away is justified. Immediately leaving the apartment is justified. Knocking him out is justified. Punching him more than once would've been extreme. Beating on him more than necessary to disable further advances would've been extreme. Homicide, that would've been extreme.

Jumping straight from "hand on his sternum" to "knocking him out" (if that is how it went) is not at all justified. She escalated straight to "risking brain damage or death" level of violence against somebody whose "frail indie-rock physique" is barely strong enough to hold up an unconscious Hanners. His actions clearly warranted a physical response at that point, but lets not give Faye a pass here. She's no delicate flower; she's hands-down the toughest kid on the block.
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LeeC

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #381 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:50 »

I dunno, Steve is pretty tough too.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #382 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:51 »

Ouch.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #383 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:52 »

She's no delicate flower; she's hands-down the toughest kid on the block.


Agreeing overall with your point here, but am I just misremembering things? Because, my 'toughness heirarchy' for the main characters goes Dora-> Faye> (Justabouteveryoneelse. OnEarth.)->Marten. I mean, we've seen Faye actually scared of Dora at one point, right?
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MrCorvin

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #384 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:55 »

I don't think Faye is going to tell anyone. I think that this situation is going to be between her and Marten and no one else.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #385 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:57 »

She's no delicate flower; she's hands-down the toughest kid on the block.


Agreeing overall with your point here, but am I just misremembering things? Because, my 'toughness heirarchy' for the main characters goes Dora-> Faye> (Justabouteveryoneelse. OnEarth.)->Marten. I mean, we've seen Faye actually scared of Dora at one point, right?

Scared and physically tough or two different things.

On that scale of psychological fear,  it would even have Marten's Mom > Everyone else > Marten.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #386 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:58 »

Note to self: worry hats are a useless defence against girly punching.

Nothing girly about it.

Well, seems to me Dora was actually RIGHT to an extent.  Marten is betraying a little flame for Faye here.

Nah, I'd say it's a simpler "I'm drunk, she's hot" situation, although I could be wrong.
Replace 'hot' with 'handy' and I think you've got it. Thank god Hanners left when she did. She really might've accidentally killed him. Or not accidentally, if she had one of her 'moments.'

And anyone else see Faye giving payback for when Marten overdid it ragging her about her drinking? Way back when—pre-Faye and Sven.
Hey, that rhymes…
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #387 on: 15 Dec 2010, 10:58 »

2) Even without a crotch grab, responding to a gentle shove and "you're being a dick" with "Oh yeah? That's what you like" doesn't indicate that is an individual who is going to take no for an answer. At that point, whatever you need to do to disable the guy from pushing the issue further, relative to the situation. A slap is justified. Shoving him away is justified. Immediately leaving the apartment is justified. Knocking him out is justified. Punching him more than once would've been extreme. Beating on him more than necessary to disable further advances would've been extreme. Homicide, that would've been extreme.

Jumping straight from "hand on his sternum" to "knocking him out" (if that is how it went) is not at all justified. She escalated straight to "risking brain damage or death" level of violence against somebody whose "frail indie-rock physique" is barely strong enough to hold up an unconscious Hanners. His actions clearly warranted a physical response at that point, but lets not give Faye a pass here. She's no delicate flower; she's hands-down the toughest kid on the block.


Can we please stop with the whole 'let's demonize overly-abusive Faye' thing now?  Please?

It wasn't just how he was touching her, it was everything he was saying in tandem with making the move.  I'm more than willing to accept that Faye can be a bully, but Marten hit Creep Factor 5 right there.  He was already demonstrating behavior she wasn't familiar with - who the hell knows what else he was going to pull out of his magic hat?  At least that's what might have been going through her head.  Hell, it would have been going through mine.

Also, homicide?  Really?  Really?
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LeeC

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #388 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:00 »

I agree Geoffthellama, some people are taking this way too far, its like they want the cops called on either of them.  Like when a lawyer makes his client wear bandages and a sling for a harmless scrape.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #389 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:03 »

Re: how sad this is

Same here - this was a heartbreaking strip to read. For me, even more so than the breakup. I'm having trouble speculating about the ramifications in future strips because I can't quite figure out how seriously this will be treated. I think it's because today defied by expectations for QC so much (not in a bad way... just in a... um, defying way).

(back to lurk-and-continued-observations)

(oh, hi, this is a bummer of a first post ever here)
Yeah, I agree. I think that this is sad but also reasonable and over due.

I have thought for a long time that Martin was too passive, almost emotionless, about Faye. It was as if he decided, in a purely intellectual sense, he didn't have an issue with her rejecting him, and shoved his emotions about it aside. He did it because he felt it was the nice, reasonable thing to do. So he decided he'd go for Dora. Martin, if anything, doesn't want to be alone. But he was never 100% honest, even with himself, about his feelings about it all-including the fall out from that decision.  It sucks that it takes being utterly inebriated and hurting for him to spit it out. 

Why the hell did Faye put him off and then start sleeping with Swen? Why is she now OK with a relationship with Angus? It's not illogical to think it's because, at least in part, Martin's been a good friend to her and has helped her sort her stuff out. Martin took her at face value, and gave her up because she wasn't up to having a relationship. He attempted to move on, shoving his feelings for her aside and exploring his feelings for Dora.

Then, Faye starts going for other guys as soon as he does.

Yeah, that would make anyone wonder. It comes back to "Why wasn't it me?".  Now he's dumped, and Faye has her new boyfriend. The snark says "I've been used." And I wonder if in some sense he hasn't. 

Now he's been terribly inappropriate-possibly attempting to grope Faye and definitely saying things he shouldn't. This could spin up to losing his "best friend". But I want to know who's gonna stop and give some grace to Marty-the guy that gives it out to everyone else?  And is he going to learn to be himself, and speak up without resentment being the fuel?
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #390 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:07 »

She's no delicate flower; she's hands-down the toughest kid on the block.


Agreeing overall with your point here, but am I just misremembering things? Because, my 'toughness heirarchy' for the main characters goes Dora-> Faye> (Justabouteveryoneelse. OnEarth.)->Marten. I mean, we've seen Faye actually scared of Dora at one point, right?

Scared and physically tough or two different things.

On that scale of psychological fear,  it would even have Marten's Mom > Everyone else > Marten.

Well... this can only be settled one way: QC Fighting Game, Street Fighter style.
(Of course, we all know Hanners wins by developing a style that ends up being super-precise nerve strikes, so she can touch people as little as possible. ;) )
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LeeC

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #391 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:11 »

only if marten gets to use guitar power.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #392 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:13 »

Well... this can only be settled one way: QC Fighting Game, Street Fighter style.
(Of course, we all know Hanners wins by developing a style that ends up being super-precise nerve strikes, so she can touch people as little as possible. ;) )

Ooooh, if only that were real and up on Steam...
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #393 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:19 »

Martin's been a good friend to her and has helped her sort her stuff out. Martin took her at face value, and gave her up because she wasn't up to having a relationship. He attempted to move on, shoving his feelings for her aside and exploring his feelings for Dora.

If he did any of those things with the expectation of some sort of "return on investment" pass to get Faye-booty, then he isn't a very good friend.  Friends help each other because they want to help each other, not because there is some quid pro quo situation. Being nice to someone when they are depressed or hurting is not a free pass into their pants and the perception that it somehow should be is why some guys/girls get mean in this kind of situation (not necessarily Marten).

Yeah, that would make anyone wonder. It comes back to "Why wasn't it me?".  Now he's dumped, and Faye has her new boyfriend. The snark says "I've been used." And I wonder if in some sense he hasn't. 

Not used. He freely offered help and compassion to Faye. If he hoped to get something more than friendship in return, it is not her fault for not reciprocating.

I honestly hope that is not the direction that Marten takes. He could use this as a way to work on himself and learn that, even when something hurts, it isn't necessarily all about you - or any about you for that matter. I would hate to think that he is that duplicitous, but if you'd asked me yesterday, I'd have said he wasn't capable of today's comic either.
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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #394 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:22 »

Well... this can only be settled one way: QC Fighting Game, Street Fighter style.
(Of course, we all know Hanners wins by developing a style that ends up being super-precise nerve strikes, so she can touch people as little as possible. ;) )

Well damn. Where can I send funding?
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cuzsis

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #395 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:26 »

That's... not true at all.  Hanners bringing the worry hat and Hanners drinking on that filthy couch.  Marten's mom flying in.  Faye helping Marten process the ridiculousness of Dora's paranoia, raging out a bit, and then accepting Marten's point of view to stay calm.  Tai hugging Marten.  Faye coming home early to make sure Marten's OK.  

Clearly, this sucks for everyone in their social circle, and so far, Hanners is kind of still a friend to both, Faye is/was still closer to Marten, Tai is definitely closer to Marten, and Sven of course is on Dora's side, but still nice to Marten (in his horribly unhelpful way.)  I don't think Dora is getting all the sympathy while Marten is suffering alone AT ALL.

But like I've said, neither Hanners, Tai or Sven really know what Marten is going through, they've said nice things, but they haven't been comforting. Hanners gave Marten his worry hat back but still treated him like a child, admittedly, because of they way Marten explained about how the worry hat worked, and Hanners has slept on that couch on at least two occasions, sitting on it is alright after a scalding shower. Tai just thinks that Marten is missing free coffee and baked goods, and even insulted him before giving him a hug (which is negated but the bad attempt at a nipple joke). Sven? Well, Sven acted like Sven. Veronica invited herself even despite Marten's protests.

As for Faye, so ok, she cut her evening with Angus short, but the fact remains that she still spent enough of the evening with him for some heavy petting (enough to lose her bra anyway). Look at when Sven slept with Gina Riversmith. Marten went home and comforted Faye, put an arm around her. Now that Dora and Marten have broken up, Faye has threatened violence, then again, there probably isn't a day where the resident southern belle hasn't threatened someone with violence. But she never asked if he was ok. As far as I can see, no one has asked Marten "If he is alright". It isn't much, but those four words can do more for someone than what the others have done.

 I agree.

 Faye decided to spend most of the evening with Angus before coming over. That's fine if that's what she wants to do, but her priority is obviously Angus at this point (and that's somewhat understandable considering her past.)

 Showing up to realize Marten is 3-sheets to the wind, you either accept that you're going to get a lot of drunk talk (and blow it off appropriately)

 Or you leave.

 Faye stayed and punched Marten out. Within character? Yes. Cool? No.

Marten's put up with a lot more crap (drunk crap even) and handled it without getting totally pissed at the person (punches or no) If Faye couldn't do that, she should've left and not hit Marten when he's metaphysically down.

 Right now the only two people who've been there for Marten are Sven (in his own way) and Hanners.

 Marten's best friend and family completely blew him off in one way or another (Faye decked him and his mom is coming down despite him not wanting her to)

 Marten is really getting dumped on at the moment.  :|
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The Seldom Killer

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #396 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:32 »

Note to self: worry hats are a useless defence against girly punching.

Nothing girly about it.


I beg to differ, if you look at the strip again, the punch was very clearly thrown by a woman, ergo girly punching.

Don't make the mistake of imagining that girly punching delivers any less impact, on any level. It differs from manly punching quite a bit but is equally harsh, often more so owing to the usual social conventions.
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Odin

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #397 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:33 »

Quote
A concussion on top of a bottle of bourbon could very easily mean you pass out and never wake up.

And wouldn't that be a pisser over the next hundred comics or so.

Marten dies, comic lives on. I could totally see it happening and becoming a much better comic because of it
Heh. Marten dies, comic barely slows down. People making inappropriate comments and stream-of-consciousness jokes when they find he's not moving. Wisecracking coroners joking bawdily about rigor mortis. People divvying up his record collection and making indie jokes. Yeah, I can kinda see that happening. ;)

I meant that the comic could still exist without Marten in it at all (and this would be the perfect opportunity to get rid of him). Besides, it's already had one character eaten by an Allosaurus with zero reaction from the other characters, so Jeph could totally kill him off and enjoy the viewings he gets from hamming up the post death drama or do a *arbitrary time frame later* fast forward and show the gang getting along just fine some time later and everything back to normal sans Marten if he wanted.

The Audience wouldn't care for very long either, we're very fickle people for the most part when it comes to this stuff (does anyone miss the guy that owned the Linux AnthroPC, for example?).

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #398 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:33 »

I can't really say too much about Faye punching him because in certain situations I think that you do what you've got to do. Yeah, given their specific situation, the punch was a bit much. If she'd been frightened or felt threatened by him, then I would have said Faye was fully justified in putting him down, but her response seemed to me to be more an angry one than anything else so I think it was a harsher response than was really necessary. I've had drunk buddies cross the line with me and I've had to physically rebuff them, but I've never had to punch any of them to get my point across.

I don't think Faye will be too happy with him for a bit, but I don't think this is going to end their friendship or anything.

Note to self: worry hats are a useless defence against girly punching.

Nothing girly about it.

Well, seems to me Dora was actually RIGHT to an extent.  Marten is betraying a little flame for Faye here.

Nah, I'd say it's a simpler "I'm drunk, she's hot" situation, although I could be wrong.
Replace 'hot' with 'handy' and I think you've got it. Thank god Hanners left when she did. She really might've accidentally killed him. Or not accidentally, if she had one of her 'moments.'

And anyone else see Faye giving payback for when Marten overdid it ragging her about her drinking? Way back when—pre-Faye and Sven.
Hey, that rhymes…

Seems more to me like he's drunk, he's angry, he's hurt and so he lashed out. It was him helping Faye through her guy induced panic that set Dora off. Then Dora tells him she thinks he still wants Faye. Add in whatever buried lingering resentment he's got over her shooting him down and then hooking up with a guy who's got a rep for treating women like crap. Pour some alcohol on that and you've got instant asshole.
« Last Edit: 15 Dec 2010, 11:37 by maddness »
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cuzsis

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Re: WCDT: 13-17 Dec 2010 (1816-20)
« Reply #399 on: 15 Dec 2010, 11:40 »

Martin's been a good friend to her and has helped her sort her stuff out. Martin took her at face value, and gave her up because she wasn't up to having a relationship. He attempted to move on, shoving his feelings for her aside and exploring his feelings for Dora.

If he did any of those things with the expectation of some sort of "return on investment" pass to get Faye-booty, then he isn't a very good friend.  Friends help each other because they want to help each other, not because there is some quid pro quo situation. Being nice to someone when they are depressed or hurting is not a free pass into their pants and the perception that it somehow should be is why some guys/girls get mean in this kind of situation (not necessarily Marten).

Yeah, that would make anyone wonder. It comes back to "Why wasn't it me?".  Now he's dumped, and Faye has her new boyfriend. The snark says "I've been used." And I wonder if in some sense he hasn't. 

Not used. He freely offered help and compassion to Faye. If he hoped to get something more than friendship in return, it is not her fault for not reciprocating.

I honestly hope that is not the direction that Marten takes. He could use this as a way to work on himself and learn that, even when something hurts, it isn't necessarily all about you - or any about you for that matter. I would hate to think that he is that duplicitous, but if you'd asked me yesterday, I'd have said he wasn't capable of today's comic either.

 He didn't do it to get a free pass.

 But he is wondering why after all his work at being a good friend and a good boyfriend, things are working out for everyone, but him.

 And if you've never been in that place in life (smile and the world kicks you in the teeth) I can only tell you he's doing what any rational human would.
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