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[pwhodges]

When did Faye become an expert on these things?  I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success!  So naturally she knows everything!

Ever heard of learning from experience?  Have you noticed that Faye's life has  improved a lot?  And the suggestion that she thinks she knows everything is your  straw man, not hers.

Good for you Dora.  Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better.

And you will note that Dora appears to have turned round to blaming Marten (by implication) for the breakup - when she said the opposite at the time.  Do you admire the ability to change like that?

[akronnick]

When did Dora ever regard Marten as perfect in every way?

[pwhodges]

When contrasting Jim's approach with "stupid drama" Dora is obviously not comparing with herself, so she must be comparing with Marten - but the only drama that Marten ever indulged in was started by her, hence my saying "turned round".  As for blaming - why else bring up the drama aspect at all?  I don't think it's such a leap (particularly as I saw a very similar turn-around used the same way at the time of my divorce).

[Blackjoker]

And you will note that Dora appears to have turned round to blaming Marten (by implication) for the breakup - when she said the opposite at the time.  Do you admire the ability to change like that?

I think it's a bit of a leap from "not regarding Marten as perfect in every way" to "blaming Marten by implication for the break-up".

To be fair I haven't seen her blaming him for it either, though if someone can show that position I may change my views.

[Boomslang]

Well, directly from today's comic:

"No pussyfooting around the issue, no stupid drama. It's a refreshing change of pace."

Since, as she mentioned, her boyfriends before Marten were Alpha males and would have just asked her out, then the only person she could conceivably be complaining about in those terms is Marten. Who does not deserve the blame for the stupid drama she's bitching about. Either she has a really faulty memory of what happened with her and Marten, or she's addicted to self delusion.

[stoutfiles]

Once again, Faye is trying to drag Dora down.  Jim is now declared a creeper (Angus was the definition of creeper when he was introduced) and Dora needs to not date and get help.  When did Faye become an expert on these things?  I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success!  So naturally she knows everything!  It's as if she wants Dora to get help to feel better about herself needing help.

Good for your Dora.  Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better.  Stop taking advice from all your troubled coworkers!

I take it from your view Dora can do no wrong?

I think Faye should mind her own business.  If Dora was letting this breakout affect other parts of her life, I would understand.  But it's not.  Dora has bounced back and she's doing fine, get off her back.

Faye has now mentioned therapy multiple times and is now the boss on who she can or can't date?  Huh?  Faye, you aren't Dora's mom...you're just her lackluster employee.  How about you stay out of Dora's personal life and work on your own issues?  You made your thoughts known, now it's just rude to keep telling Dora what she's allowed to do.

Dora can do plenty wrong and she has, but Faye is not the boss of her.  Infact, it's literally the other way around.

[Welu]

Yeah, Faye is just Dora's employee. It'd be crazy to suggest they were friends or anything, even living together at one point. Madness.

[TheEvilDog]

Stoutfiles, instead of whining about Faye, why not provide proof of why Dora doesn't need therapy. Various people in this topic have provided ample evidence of why it might be beneficial for Dora to see a therapist, while you have provided none. Instead, you have provided opinions and some very generalised comments. As this is your topic, the onus is on you to show us why Dora should continue on her path, we've already done our part, perhaps its time you did yours.

[stoutfiles]

Stoutfiles, instead of whining about Faye, why not provide proof of why Dora doesn't need therapy. Various people in this topic have provided ample evidence of why it might be beneficial for Dora to see a therapist, while you have provided none. Instead, you have provided opinions and some very generalised comments. As this is your topic, the onus is on you to show us why Dora should continue on her path, we've already done our part, perhaps its time you did yours.

For the simple reason that it's Dora's life and she can live it how she chooses.  She still goes to work, she doesn't alienate her friends, etc.  She's not crying all day at work...she looks to be doing just fine given she just had a big breakup not too long ago.  I can't say her problems are any worse than any of the QC cast; I could make a case that every single person in this strip needs therapy for something.

Therapy is a personal choice.  Personal.  How would you like it if your friends tried to push you into therapy after a breakup instead of just consoling you?  I know you won't entertain this thought for me, but it would be rude.

I have nothing against therapy, provided the person going wants to go.  It's beneficial, but it's not neccesarily needed.  Are we saying that without therapy Dora will NEVER settle down with someone?  Her dating Jim and ignoring Faye is ruining her life? No, I dont think so.

[TheEvilDog]

So are you unable, or unwilling to provide support for you claims? All I have seen is your opinions, which is not nearly enough. We've provided comics as evidence for why Dora should at least talk to someone, while you've just twisted them, or in some cases, ignored them. So, I put to you, where is your evidence? Not opinions, but solid evidence.

I've seen nothing from you that supports anything you claim. Thats all I want.

[azurite]

And you will note that Dora appears to have turned round to blaming Marten (by implication) for the breakup - when she said the opposite at the time.  Do you admire the ability to change like that?

I think it's a bit of a leap from "not regarding Marten as perfect in every way" to "blaming Marten by implication for the break-up".

Yeah, it's a leap. She might actually be calling Faye out on how Angus practically needed a PhD in diplomacy just to approach Faye with the idea that he was attracted to her--also, you know, it could be possible that Dora's still working through some residual resentment about Faye leaving Marten on the hook for as long as she did. I like Faye, but there's been a lot of relationship drama around her. I'd say significantly more than any regular in the strip, with respect to both number of people she's had drama with, number of  bystanders dragged into the drama, and length of time it took the drama to play out. I could see a friend, even one who loves her dearly, getting burned out on it, especially at the flip drop of the word "creepers."

BUT. If Dora is talking about Marten? Hey, look, that might be THE DIRECT IMPACT OF THERAPY. Dora is recognizing that her crazy wasn't the only problem between them, that Marten also played a role in the failure of their relationship. There might have been some basic compatibility issues. There might have been some problems between them that she was simply in denial about even after they first broke up. Not loving the passive-aggressive subtext of her delivery here, but if these are new ideas she's sorting through, she's probably not going to be real good at talking about them with people other than her therapist. Which probably means she should stick to talking about them with her therapist, for now.

Also remember that it's been quite some time since the breakup, and Marten's been doing a pretty good job at hiding from Dora (and my saying that does not exclude the possibility that Dora has also done some things to reduce the possibility of running into Marten--it's just that Marten is the one making major alterations to his daily routine.) I might be hitting a wall with teh drama implications of that, too, especially if I was nearly 30.

[TRVA123]

For the simple reason that it's Dora's life and she can live it how she chooses.  She still goes to work, she doesn't alienate her friends, etc.  She's not crying all day at work...she looks to be doing just fine given she just had a big breakup not too long ago.  I can't say her problems are any worse than any of the QC cast; I could make a case that every single person in this strip needs therapy for something.

Therapy is a personal choice.  Personal.  How would you like it if your friends tried to push you into therapy after a breakup instead of just consoling you?  I know you won't entertain this thought for me, but it would be rude.

I have nothing against therapy, provided the person going wants to go.  It's beneficial, but it's not neccesarily needed.  Are we saying that without therapy Dora will NEVER settle down with someone?  Her dating Jim and ignoring Faye is ruining her life? No, I dont think so.

Just as it is Dora's choice, it is also the other's right to question her choices. Part of the reason therapy looks like a good suggestion for Dora is that there is an outside accountability. You have regular meetings with someone who helps you examine how you've been handling life and whether it is bringing about the results you desire. Think of it in terms of education, you could decide to study a subject on your own, in your own time, planning to master it within four months, but most people don't have the self discipline to follow through on that. So people go to school, where a mentor guides them through the subject, keeping them on task and encouraging them to make progress towards their goal.

If Dora could find a way to work through her issues on her own that would also be fine, but she can't, or should I say she hasn't. Part of it is being lazy and part of it is that most people are resistant to the idea that they could be at fault. The Dora-Marten ship sinking wasn't entirely Dora's fault, but many of the big fights were started by her.

Just because Dora's life hasn't fallen to shit in every aspect possible doesn't mean that Dora's life is fine. It has been established in the comic that the part of Dora's life where she has problems is in her ability to have healthy romantic relationships. SHE has acknowledged that this is a problem for her.

[Tiogyr]

For the simple reason that it's Dora's life and she can live it how she chooses.  She still goes to work, she doesn't alienate her friends, etc.  She's not crying all day at work...she looks to be doing just fine given she just had a big breakup not too long ago.  I can't say her problems are any worse than any of the QC cast; I could make a case that every single person in this strip needs therapy for something.

Therapy is a personal choice.  Personal.  How would you like it if your friends tried to push you into therapy after a breakup instead of just consoling you?  I know you won't entertain this thought for me, but it would be rude.

I have nothing against therapy, provided the person going wants to go.  It's beneficial, but it's not neccesarily needed.  Are we saying that without therapy Dora will NEVER settle down with someone?  Her dating Jim and ignoring Faye is ruining her life? No, I dont think so.

Just as it is Dora's choice, it is also the other's right to question her choices. Part of the reason therapy looks like a good suggestion for Dora is that there is an outside accountability. You have regular meetings with someone who helps you examine how you've been handling life and whether it is bringing about the results you desire. Think of it in terms of education, you could decide to study a subject on your own, in your own time, planning to master it within four months, but most people don't have the self discipline to follow through on that. So people go to school, where a mentor guides them through the subject, keeping them on task and encouraging them to make progress towards their goal.

If Dora could find a way to work through her issues on her own that would also be fine, but she can't, or should I say she hasn't. Part of it is being lazy and part of it is that most people are resistant to the idea that they could be at fault. The Dora-Marten ship sinking wasn't entirely Dora's fault, but many of the big fights were started by her.

Just because Dora's life hasn't fallen to shit in every aspect possible doesn't mean that Dora's life is fine. It has been established in the comic that the part of Dora's life where she has problems is in her ability to have healthy romantic relationships. SHE has acknowledged that this is a problem for her.

It's a little hard to fault Dora moving into the "the breakup was also somewhat Marten's fault" camp when Marten's own mother showed up to offer her condolences over the relationship not working out.

[TheEvilDog]

It's a little hard to fault Dora moving into the "the breakup was also somewhat Marten's fault" camp when Marten's own mother showed up to offer her condolences over the relationship not working out.

While during the same visit Veronica admits she would seduce Sven under different circumstances, goes to see Dora behind Marten's back and earlier humiliates Marten in front of a complete stranger, so I think Veronica's judgement for most of that visit was seriously in doubt.

[stoutfiles]

So are you unable, or unwilling to provide support for you claims? All I have seen is your opinions, which is not nearly enough. We've provided comics as evidence for why Dora should at least talk to someone, while you've just twisted them, or in some cases, ignored them. So, I put to you, where is your evidence? Not opinions, but solid evidence.

I've seen nothing from you that supports anything you claim. Thats all I want.

That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed.  Im not going through the strip history to find them.  The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.  

Even though this is what you consider a opinion, some people would not want to date someone who had feelings for their friend first.  I don't declare that therapy worthy, and Svens friends were likely douchebags.  I'd like to see one relationship with a good, somewhat successful guy on a clean slate.  If that fails then maybe somethings wrong, but I currently think she's just made bad relationship choices.

As for Dora wanting Faye to mind her own business, today's comic is plenty evidence.  It was ok at first for Faye to care, but now it's just rude telling her she can't live her life.

If you choose to believe she's so troubled that therapy is the only answer, then ok.  We can agree to disagree.  I guess Jeph will prove one of us wrong soon enough.

[DSL]

I'm not one to say one party's exclusively a saint and the other exclusively a sinner in the M/D shipwreck, and Jeph's drawn a pretty good picture of a 'ship with hull breaches port and starboard -- but I don't think that first quote in Tender's quartet is exactly, um, exact. However, hearkening back to the conversation on which it appears to be based (immediately post Faye's initial hookup with Sven) ... Is it possible there was a bit of unconscious motivation on Faye's part to dig at M and D? IIRC, Marten acknowledged it would be a good dig on Faye's part, but his disinclination to believe she'd do that, plus the heat of Dora's initial reaction, led to the " irrational" comment from Marten.

 And, you know, there have been a couple scenes where Faye's been, well, manipulative. I'm thinking in particular of immediately post Faye telling Angus about her dad, Marten (a little selfishly, I thought) being upset about that ... but Faye sorta tuned up the violin strings on Marten.

And I won't go digging for the citation, but I'm pretty sure Jeph's said in actual words he doesn't set out to have any of his characters be 100 percent at fault or blameless in a situation.

Gosh, it's like they're realistically portrayed characters or something.

[TRVA123]

Dora's simply recognizing problems from the past relationship, and there's been a lot of drama generated from Marten's side. From a third-person omniscient point of view, especially one that strongly sympathizes with Marten, it's easy to look past those problems; however, when looking at the story from Dora's point of view, while you can still call some of her behavior irrational, it's also easy to see where problems with Marten developed, problems that were left unresolved. That's why she broke up with him.

I don't think the "pussyfooting" comment needs to be explained, considering how Marten's performed in the strip. From the start, she took the initiative in that relationship. Also, Marten's not the sharpest bulb in the box when it comes to recognizing the obvious, as demonstrated on numerous occasions. Regarding the "drama" from Marten's side of the relationship, just scroll through the archives to find some of the baggage he's carried: the complicated relationship with Faye, through all the (mis)interpretations; Veronica Vance, Marten's mother and Dora's childhood crush; Marten's job troubles, with the occasional existential moment; the band, together and apart; the Vespa Avenger... even living with Pintsize the Anthro PC can escalate into incidents involving the Robotics Defense Agency of the US Government. I'm not going to summarize the entire comic here, but Marten is tied to a lot of drama over the last 1946 strips.

Here are four more quotes that sum up Marten and Dora's relationship pretty well:

"Oh Dora, you're SO IRRATIONAL! Sit down and let me explain how you're being CRAZY and I'm ALWAYS RIGHT, 'cause I'm such a NICE GUY. Bluh blee bloo blah bloo."
"Marten, you could be trying to patch things up with Dora, but instead you're sitting here complaining to us. I mean, isn't sitting here blaming all your problems on women kind of... sexist?"
"It's hard to tell sometimes with him, because Marten tries to put a happy face on everything."
"Has he always been this inept with the ladies?"

Dora knew about Martens baggage before the realtionship started, she especially was aware of the Marten-Faye deal, and she is the one who pursued the relationship anyway. Even from a strictly pro-Dora perspective a lot of her positions are irrational or purely insecurity fed.

For example, that first quote is from a fight Dora picked with Marten when he took Faye hooking up with Sven calmly, as opposed to seeing a huge subtextual "Fuck you Marten and Dora" http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1097  and http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1098
It takes some pretty specific permutations of logic to come to the conclusion that Dora reaches. and the time that Dora picked a fight because Marten got a haircut? http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=857
Or the time Dora got mad at Marten for having residual feeling for his ex girlfriends? http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1066
or the time when Dora set Marten up for a fight over Cosette asking him out? http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1324

Marten did have some jerky moments ( http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=741, and http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=957 ) , but he spent the majority of that relationship bending over backwards for Dora. (of course, he bends over backwards for everyone else)

[TheEvilDog]

That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed.  Im not going through the strip history to find them.  The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.

So you refuse to back up your argument while others have gone to the effort to back their own reasons for believing that Dora should see a therapist.

Even though this is what you consider a opinion, some people would not want to date someone who had feelings for their friend first.  I don't declare that therapy worthy, and Svens friends were likely douchebags.  I'd like to see one relationship with a good, somewhat successful guy on a clean slate.  If that fails then maybe somethings wrong, but I currently think she's just made bad relationship choices.

Except that your opinions have ignored other, valid points. You've ignored people who have spoken from personal experience. You admit that Dora has made bad relationship choices, but refuse to believe that there is something wrong when she keeps making the same mistakes. Einstein once said that “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Dora isn’t insane, but she still repeating the past mistakes. She hasn’t learned from any of those mistakes and she is doomed to repeat them.

As for Dora wanting Faye to mind her own business, today's comic is plenty evidence.  It was ok at first for Faye to care, but now it's just rude telling her she can't live her life.

So Faye can’t be concerned for her best friend? Or that she could see that Dora was beginning to twist events so that Marten was the villain in their break up? As someone mentioned earlier, Dora is acting like an alcoholic who has been dry for two months and thinks that’s it, so its time to celebrate with a tumbler of whiskey. Faye has experience, Dora has arrogance, which would you be more concerned about?

If you choose to believe she's so troubled that therapy is the only answer, then ok.  We can agree to disagree.  I guess Jeph will prove one of us wrong soon enough.

I do believe that she does need therapy, and that she does help to realise that she is on a self-destructive path. Her friends are too close for Dora to take them seriously or to believe them. A therapist just offers an outside perspective, and a trusted means of pointing things out.

[Is it cold in here?]

I have no support for this from the comic, unless you count Dora's passing mention of maybe getting help getting over her brother issues.

But does anyone else suspect that Dora realized she needed therapy and used Faye's threats to overcome her own fear of starting the process? In other words, the Pugnacious Peach Peer Pressure gave Dora the opportunity to start the therapy she wanted without first overcoming the hurdle of having to admit to herself that she needed it.

[guayec]

wow TRVA123, that was a really helpful batch of comics. thanks (and to every other archive master that links to relevant strips in these discussions).

hindsight is a bitch.

[TRVA123]

But does anyone else suspect that Dora realized she needed therapy and used Faye's threats to overcome her own fear of starting the process? In other words, the Pugnacious Peach Pressure gave Dora the opportunity to start the therapy she wanted without first overcoming the hurdle of having to admit to herself that she needed it.

huh, I hadn't considered that before, but it makes sense.

I think Sven would be a good candidate for helping Dora realize that she needs therapy. She's known him the longest (obviously!) he has the most backstory for her, and he has enough of an outsiders perspective that she just might listen to him.

[DSL]

My apologies (translation: "Busted!") to Tender for the "um, exact" dig. I was assuming it was your sarcastic paraphrase of Marten when it was Dora's -- which, of course, makes it an exact quote from the comic.

I still like all the other stuff I said, though. ...

[Elysiana]

TRVA - that first comic you linked to suggest that Marten has been an ass sometimes was just them putting on a show to get the VespAvenger to follow them. Otherwise, excellent list and very telling as far as what's happened so far between M/D.


I sometimes wonder if there's some confusion over what a therapist does. So many people think that one only goes to a therapist because something is "wrong" with them when really that's often not the case. Stoutfiles, you mentioned that "She still goes to work, she doesn't alienate her friends, etc.  She's not crying all day at work...she looks to be doing just fine given she just had a big breakup not too long ago." - but there are many other things that can happen that mean someone should look into therapy. I think you're confusing "needing therapy" with "having depression".

You say that Faye shouldn't be handing out advice to Dora... and you say Dora doesn't need advice from a therapist... but it's obvious that she's still got issues she can't handle on her own, so where do YOU think she should start? Therapy is a good way to address issues that you don't even know you have. When you know there's something you can't get over, but you don't know how to express it or what it is about it that upsets you.

For example, in Dora's first meeting with the therapist, she talked for an hour about Sven, then couldn't understand why the therapist didn't talk about her relationships. She has absolutely no idea where her insecurities are stemming from, even though that was an obvious clue to those of us watching from the outside. She's sabotaged her relationship with Marten several times, and he was pretty damn patient with her. That's not to say he hasn't done anything wrong at all, but her attitude has been one of mistrust for a very long time, with no reason to be mistrustful. There's some pretty deep-seated problems there - even Sven pointed that out - and she's not going to work them out on her own, or she would have by now.

Even a couple sessions with a therapist can really change your outlook on things and get you started down the right path. Sometimes it takes an unbiased person who knows the right questions to get you to look at things from a different perspective.

So I do have another question for you, stoutfiles - even if she doesn't need it, what could it hurt?

[TRVA123]

TRVA - that first comic you linked to suggest that Marten has been an ass sometimes was just them putting on a show to get the VespAvenger to follow them. Otherwise, excellent list and very telling as far as what's happened so far between M/D.

haha, no, I'm aware of the context of that link, it was meant to highlight where Marten was laying it on too thick. Its one of the few times I could fine where he acted without regard to Dora's feelings. (without being pushed to the brink of impulsive anger by Dora first)

[stoutfiles]

That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed.  Im not going through the strip history to find them.  The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.

So you refuse to back up your argument while others have gone to the effort to back their own reasons for believing that Dora should see a therapist.

I'm not going to catalog every argument they had to prove a point to someone who's mind is already made up.  Sorry.

Except that your opinions have ignored other, valid points. You've ignored people who have spoken from personal experience. You admit that Dora has made bad relationship choices, but refuse to believe that there is something wrong when she keeps making the same mistakes. Einstein once said that “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Dora isn’t insane, but she still repeating the past mistakes. She hasn’t learned from any of those mistakes and she is doomed to repeat them.

They are her wrong choices to make.  Dora's a big girl, if she wants to go to therapy she can.  If not, she doesn't have to.  She especially doesn't need to hear it from Faye at work, uncalled for.

So Faye can’t be concerned for her best friend? Or that she could see that Dora was beginning to twist events so that Marten was the villain in their break up? As someone mentioned earlier, Dora is acting like an alcoholic who has been dry for two months and thinks that’s it, so its time to celebrate with a tumbler of whiskey. Faye has experience, Dora has arrogance, which would you be more concerned about?

For being best friends, they sure don't get along that much!  I'd be more concerned if Dora consoled Faye on any decision she made because of all her experience.  "Sorry Jim, but Faye says I can't date you."

I do believe that she does need therapy, and that she does help to realise that she is on a self-destructive path. Her friends are too close for Dora to take them seriously or to believe them. A therapist just offers an outside perspective, and a trusted means of pointing things out.

What horrible things will happen to Dora if she doesn't get help?  Will she be alone forever?

So I do have another question for you, stoutfiles - even if she doesn't need it, what could it hurt?

If Dora wants to go to therapy, then more power to her!  I want it to be her decision, and not Faye pressuring her.


<mod: edit to correct quoting for comprehensibility>

[pwhodges]

That "happy face" is a facet of his personality that's linked to how he acts, not only in relationships, but in everyday life. [...] I think Marten's façade is especially telling when looking at the relationship: Sometimes he pouted, but he kept trying to smooth things over with a happy face, a song and dance... all up to the end, where he is left staring blankly at Dora as she tells him it is over.

If I come over as unduly sympathetic to Marten, this is because in certain respects I really am (or once was) like him; I have said before that some of Marten's low-key approach to life is just like mine, but it didn't stop me making a good-enough fist of it in the end.

There are also some parallels between the breakup of my first marriage (after 22 years) and the breakup of Marten and Dora's relationship (though I wouldn't press that too far, which is why I've only occasionally mentioned specific things).  When I said that Dora seemed to be blaming Marten, even though only by implication, that is because I recognised it as very close to how my first wife spoke of me - so I had real-life reinforcement for that interpretation.  I should say that the man my former wife went on to marry (in spite of not facing her issues, as I saw it), and with whom she'd previously been having an affair, has proved an excellent partner for her - and indeed I also like him very much.

[Blackjoker]

Here are four more quotes that sum up Marten and Dora's relationship pretty well:

"Oh Dora, you're SO IRRATIONAL! Sit down and let me explain how you're being CRAZY and I'm ALWAYS RIGHT, 'cause I'm such a NICE GUY. Bluh blee bloo blah bloo."
"Marten, you could be trying to patch things up with Dora, but instead you're sitting here complaining to us. I mean, isn't sitting here blaming all your problems on women kind of... sexist?"
"It's hard to tell sometimes with him, because Marten tries to put a happy face on everything."
"Has he always been this inept with the ladies?"

It would probably help on the first one if it wasn't technically accurate, IE in most of the cases Dora WAS being irrational. Marten might not have phrased things as cleanly as he could have but Doras behavior was not rational, she even frequently realized that if she was given a bit of time or a more aggressive confrontation on the subject.

The second one, Marten was frustrated and did what plenty of guys in that situation do, blame women as a whole, not a good or healthy thing but it does happen. It's also worth noting that moments later he paused and was willing to blame all men for the worlds problems, with Hannelore, the person who said it in the first place joining in on that.

For the next one, Marten tries hard to make others happy and keep things from blowing up, Marten might have had an easier time with the relationship and it might still be there if he had either been more willing to confront Dora (IE not be in conflict avoidance mode) or if he had been willing to be blunter on things. Then again it might have only exacerbated things.

Followed by "He always had the bumbling sweetheart aspect, it's how his father got me" Now admittedly his father was gay, so there is some room for quibbling there.

As for stuff with the vespavenger and government and the like it's again worth noting that most of these were not caused my Marten, instead these were wandering plots that happened to fall on him.

[pwhodges]

(stuff)

So basically you're saying that friends shouldn't give you advice, because it's up to you to make your own choices, including mistakes; and friends that are prepared to tell you what they think of your behaviour are not true friends?  That sounds to me like a recipe for loneliness in old age, or earlier, even.

[Blackjoker]

Even from a strictly pro-Dora perspective...

This is where I'd usually recuse myself from the discussion, because I'm not a member of a some kind of bizarre Pro-XXX character faction. Such a polarizing environment... I simply think many put all of the blame on Dora while cutting Marten too much slack, looking past his problems. Enough slack to hang himself. Those problems are often detrimental in relationships. He has some serious character flaws, which is fine! Tying into what DSL wrote earier, I don't think any of the characters are perfect 100% of the time, not by a longshot.

Besides, it's really tiresome to scroll past the same "I think she should wait longer!" comments; much similar to the "I think Marten should wait longer!" ones when Padma first appeared.

Anyway, finding instances of when you consider Dora to be acting irrational doesn't really mean anything to me, since I've already mentioned it's easy to call some of her behavior irrational. Just as you can find a lot of instances where Marten is not acting in a way conducive to a healthy relationship. Just as you can also find a lot of examples where they are both acting fine together. Also, while Dora knew about some of the baggage, it's very hard to deny that the baggage didn't cause any drama, which was my point when I replied to Paul's comment.

I would argue the difference here though is that Marten wasn't constantly calling Dora irrational, if he were then Dora complaining the way she did would make more sense in the area of 'Marten is being undercutting' or something similar. Instead however we end up in a situation where Dora does something irrational, usually doing it at Marten, Marten calls her out on it, and she gets angry. The problem is that either Marten does nothing about it which would be fairly unhealthy, or he calls her out on it and instead we end up with her blowing her stack at him for that and apparently having it seen as a negative trait of his.

[Blackjoker]

That would be every comic where she and Marten fought and/or disagreed.  Im not going through the strip history to find them.  The relationship wasn't perfect to begin with, Dora didn't sink it all by herself.

So you refuse to back up your argument while others have gone to the effort to back their own reasons for believing that Dora should see a therapist.

I'm not going to catalog every argument they had to prove a point to someone who's mind is already made up.  Sorry.

Except that your opinions have ignored other, valid points. You've ignored people who have spoken from personal experience. You admit that Dora has made bad relationship choices, but refuse to believe that there is something wrong when she keeps making the same mistakes. Einstein once said that “Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Dora isn’t insane, but she still repeating the past mistakes. She hasn’t learned from any of those mistakes and she is doomed to repeat them.

They are her wrong choices to make.  Dora's a big girl, if she wants to go to therapy she can.  If not, she doesn't have to.  She especially doesn't need to hear it from Faye at work, uncalled for.

So Faye can’t be concerned for her best friend? Or that she could see that Dora was beginning to twist events so that Marten was the villain in their break up? As someone mentioned earlier, Dora is acting like an alcoholic who has been dry for two months and thinks that’s it, so its time to celebrate with a tumbler of whiskey. Faye has experience, Dora has arrogance, which would you be more concerned about?

For being best friends, they sure don't get along that much!  I'd be more concerned if Dora consoled Faye on any decision she made because of all her experience.  "Sorry Jim, but Faye says I can't date you."

I do believe that she does need therapy, and that she does help to realise that she is on a self-destructive path. Her friends are too close for Dora to take them seriously or to believe them. A therapist just offers an outside perspective, and a trusted means of pointing things out.

What horrible things will happen to Dora if she doesn't get help?  Will she be alone forever?

So I do have another question for you, stoutfiles - even if she doesn't need it, what could it hurt?

If Dora wants to go to therapy, then more power to her!  I want it to be her decision, and not Faye pressuring her.

A few points

1) People have been willing to post links showing rebuttals to your assertions, you seem to have either ignored them or you disagree, fine. But why not offer a few counter arguments for your own position, I am willing to change my view in light of new information and perspectives.

2) Yes, they are Doras decisions to make, but that doesn't mean that people who care about her should be ignored or treated as bad because they try to offer help and advice. Dora also offered plenty of advice to Faye in the strip as well, would you call that being a bad person or friend to her?

3) Their friendship may be rather acidic but it is there. The second thing is that you're hyperbolizing what was said and jumping to an odd conclusion. Faye might just be saying that Jim seems a bit off to her, it might be a bit like her faulty threat detection in earlier strips where she was even afraid of Marten in some regards (and in these cases Dora called her out on it and confronted the issues).

4) Alone forever, maybe maybe not. However it is worth noting that she even realized that her decisions were irrational in the relationship if she was given enough time to think about it. And according to both her and Sven her earlier boyfriends were abusers, maybe just emotional maybe also physical but they were still abusers. Dora might not end up 'forever alone' if she doesn't deal with her issues but she might find herself either in another abusive relationship or flying off the handle one time too often to the point where her friends decide that they have frankly had enough.

5) It's also important to note that Dora had to push Faye a fair amount to help get her into therapy, more to the point so did Marten, would you say that they were being bad friends for doing that? Faye wasn't crying constantly either, she was able to work just fine and had friends, would you say that the therapy for her was unnecessary?


<mod: edit to correct quoting for comprehensibility>

[Is it cold in here?]

I think I see the point here:

Friendly if firm advice: Marten to Faye, "Just go on a date with him[Angus]"
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "I can't believe you're going on a DATE with that creeper"

[O8h7w]

For example, in Dora's first meeting with the therapist, she talked for an hour about Sven, then couldn't understand why the therapist didn't talk about her relationships. She has absolutely no idea where her insecurities are stemming from, even though that was an obvious clue to those of us watching from the outside. She's sabotaged her relationship with Marten several times, and he was pretty damn patient with her. That's not to say he hasn't done anything wrong at all, but her attitude has been one of mistrust for a very long time, with no reason to be mistrustful. There's some pretty deep-seated problems there - even Sven pointed that out - and she's not going to work them out on her own, or she would have by now.

In this comic she comes very close to this subject, but it's hard to tell if she realizes the problem or if she's not anywhere near realizing it. I think there was on more comic where she talked about it, but I don't find it right now.

Besides, it's really tiresome to scroll past the same "I think she should wait longer!" comments; much similar to the "I think Marten should wait longer!" ones when Padma first appeared.

I have written a few of those. But it's not really about the time aspect, it's that the two haven't met each other since the breakup. I feel they have few loose ends to straighten out before they can go on.

What horrible things will happen to Dora if she doesn't get help?  Will she be alone forever?

Yes, quite probably. I have a hard to see what kind of partner she would have to find for a relationship to work when she has these insecurities, and I think we have proved she isn't doing anything about it on her own. That is why her friends are right in pushing her, but I can agree Faye isn't exactly doing it in a good way.

Faye is extremely protective about her friends, and she still sees this kind of relationships as threats, potential troublemakers. She has reacted against every date we've ever heard of in the comic, I think. She has reacted badly about quite a few of the fights between Marten and Dora, and she was in rage when they broke up. And she doesn't do things in the most healthy manner, which both she and her therapist knows very well - see when she threats Dora into therapy.

(these points about Faye were also addressed by Blackjoker, and very descriptive by Is it cold in here?, thankyou both)

Back to what could happen to Dora if she ignores her friends requests to do something about it and hooks up with Jim "instead". Well, if it goes really bad she could alienate more or less all of her friends which includes her employees, I don't find it hard to see that ruining her business... or she could simply have yet another problematic relationship, which could easily render her depressed right now.

[TheEvilDog]

Everything Blackjoker has just said? I agree with it fully.

[jwhouk]

You know something? I just realized a point in favor of those who wonder if Dora's distracted:

No specials.

Go ahead, look back. It's all the way back at 1907, which was the day that Marten finally "re-entered" CoD, only to discover Dora wasn't there (because she was moving). That was the last time we saw any specials on the chalkboard.

Now, you could argue that they had the bean issue later on, but there was nothing on the board back in 1945, when Tai came in to the shop at least a day or two after the bean issue had been resolved.

She's distracted. Either that or she forgot to get chalk.

[Is it cold in here?]

Faye is extremely protective about her friends, and she still sees this kind of relationships as threats, potential troublemakers. She has reacted against every date we've ever heard of in the comic, I think.

I had to stop and think about that, but I believe you're right.

[Blackjoker]

You know something? I just realized a point in favor of those who wonder if Dora's distracted:

No specials.

Go ahead, look back. It's all the way back at 1907, which was the day that Marten finally "re-entered" CoD, only to discover Dora wasn't there (because she was moving). That was the last time we saw any specials on the chalkboard.

Now, you could argue that they had the bean issue later on, but there was nothing on the board back in 1945, when Tai came in to the shop at least a day or two after the bean issue had been resolved.

She's distracted. Either that or she forgot to get chalk.

Possible, though that could just be more either the creator of the universe forgetting to put it up or them being too busy selling the delicious delicious pastries to do any specials.

[Spectreofwar]

I'm not going to catalog every argument they had to prove a point to someone who's mind is already made up.  Sorry.

Okay, as entertaining as this thread has been so far(?), I have to pipe up and call bullshit on this one.

OP, you've taken a particularly pro-Dora stance from the get-go, and after NUMEROUS eloquent, factual and referenced counters were made your next most significant input was to bash Faye for attempting to "drag Dora down."

You advocated that Dora ought to be allowed to be "controlling." Do those being "controlled" have anything to say about that, I wonder? And if being controlling is just fine, how is it that suggesting a path to pursue is so unworthy of a friendship? Oh, but Faye's insistence on her going to therapy (with the threat of physical harm) could be controlling...
You've suggested that Dora was too good for Marten, when in fact she has openly admitted that she has issues and throughout the comic strip has irrationally sabotaged her relationship.
Moreover, you've made wide assumptions based on far-reaching ideas that have no basis in the comic as a means to justify what Dora could be doing. Well-wishing for anyone is all fine and good (even if the character is fictitious), but within reason - and wholly useless in the context of the question "Why does Dora need therapy?" (as opposed to, say, "Dora's future: what will happen now?")
I fail to see any point to your "arguments," other than to paint Dora in as best a light as possible.

I'm not sure if it's because you see yourself in Dora somewhat (which is possible), nor do I know if you have any experience with how you see her life as having progressed, either by having an (ex) boyfriend like Marten or what-have-you. At this point, however, as someone who has read this thread from top to bottom, you're doing a disservice to the people that took you up on intelligent discussion. What you've stated is little more than an opinion, and a biased one at that; so why even ask this question if you have no interest in actually getting an *answer*?

This just looks like trolling from here on out to me.

[justanotherbrick]

I think I see the point here:

Friendly if firm advice: Marten to Faye, "Just go on a date with him[Angus]"
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "I can't believe you're going on a DATE with that creeper"

Hey all, casual lurker, occasional poster here. 

When Hannelore wanted to go on a casual, non-date with Sven, Dora's exact words were "you picked literally the WORST POSSIBLE GUY to do it with" (words about her own brother - nice, hey?) Then, when poor Hannelore backed off (after it took her considerable bravery to get over her fears and ask Sven) Dora said "it's against my better judgement...but you can go". This really irritated me at the time, because why does Hannelore need Dora's permission to go on a date with Sven? I couldn't believe that Dora had the gall to "give Hanners permission" to go on a date...as if she had anything to do with it to begin with.

My point is that Dora is, (in my very humble opinion) by FAR the most meddling/sticks-her-nose-where-it-doesn't-belong-character in the strip. In this case, Faye is expressing her trepidation towards Dora going on a date at all, let alone a date with a guy who seems to have residual anger issues towards his ex-wife and lawyer, not meddling. I would want my friends to tell me if they thought a guy was a creeper too...it shows that they care. Besides, my mom always taught me to trust your gut, and Faye's guy feeling is that this guy is a "creeper" (I sort of agree with her, to be honest).

So, in my opinion:

Friendly, but firm advice: "I thought you were gonna try and work out some of your issues..."
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "It's against my better judgement...but you can go".

[justanotherbrick]

And I guess that my even bigger point is that YES, Dora needs therapy. She has major control issues/sibling rivalry issues/insecurity issues.

[Blackjoker]

I think I see the point here:

Friendly if firm advice: Marten to Faye, "Just go on a date with him[Angus]"
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "I can't believe you're going on a DATE with that creeper"

Hey all, casual lurker, occasional poster here. 

When Hannelore wanted to go on a casual, non-date with Sven, Dora's exact words were "you picked literally the WORST POSSIBLE GUY to do it with" (words about her own brother - nice, hey?) Then, when poor Hannelore backed off (after it took her considerable bravery to get over her fears and ask Sven) Dora said "it's against my better judgement...but you can go". This really irritated me at the time, because why does Hannelore need Dora's permission to go on a date with Sven? I couldn't believe that Dora had the gall to "give Hanners permission" to go on a date...as if she had anything to do with it to begin with.

My point is that Dora is, (in my very humble opinion) by FAR the most meddling/sticks-her-nose-where-it-doesn't-belong-character in the strip. In this case, Faye is expressing her trepidation towards Dora going on a date at all, let alone a date with a guy who seems to have residual anger issues towards his ex-wife and lawyer, not meddling. I would want my friends to tell me if they thought a guy was a creeper too...it shows that they care. Besides, my mom always taught me to trust your gut, and Faye's guy feeling is that this guy is a "creeper" (I sort of agree with her, to be honest).

So, in my opinion:

Friendly, but firm advice: "I thought you were gonna try and work out some of your issues..."
Disrespectful and arrogant meddling: "It's against my better judgement...but you can go".

I agree with you in some ways I just went back and reread the whole thing and I can see some of your point but there are a couple things too that could be mentioned, if only for devils advocate.

1) Dora might have been worried that Svens manwhore ways would end up with him trying to seduce Hannelore which would certainly end badly for those involved. Her comment might not have been nice, but she might have also reflected that if Sven was apparently able to get the pugnacious peach into bed that the hyperventilating Hannelore might also be a possibility and foresaw that it would be possible and that it might end up hurting Hannelore or causing other drama.

2) There is also the fact that Dora even mentioned that Hannelore brought out some of her maternal side, usually when they had to care for her when she got sick or something similar, so that might explain some of her whole permission thing and the like. Not saying that it's good or right, just that I can sort of see where it came from.

3) Given Hannelores occasional overreactions herself there might have also been some risk to Sven or those around them and even if she isn't thrilled with Sven she likely doesn't wish him ill, at least not to that extent.

[stoutfiles]

1) People have been willing to post links showing rebuttals to your assertions, you seem to have either ignored them or you disagree, fine. But why not offer a few counter arguments for your own position, I am willing to change my view in light of new information and perspectives.

2) Yes, they are Doras decisions to make, but that doesn't mean that people who care about her should be ignored or treated as bad because they try to offer help and advice. Dora also offered plenty of advice to Faye in the strip as well, would you call that being a bad person or friend to her?

3) Their friendship may be rather acidic but it is there. The second thing is that you're hyperbolizing what was said and jumping to an odd conclusion. Faye might just be saying that Jim seems a bit off to her, it might be a bit like her faulty threat detection in earlier strips where she was even afraid of Marten in some regards (and in these cases Dora called her out on it and confronted the issues).

4) Alone forever, maybe maybe not. However it is worth noting that she even realized that her decisions were irrational in the relationship if she was given enough time to think about it. And according to both her and Sven her earlier boyfriends were abusers, maybe just emotional maybe also physical but they were still abusers. Dora might not end up 'forever alone' if she doesn't deal with her issues but she might find herself either in another abusive relationship or flying off the handle one time too often to the point where her friends decide that they have frankly had enough.

5) It's also important to note that Dora had to push Faye a fair amount to help get her into therapy, more to the point so did Marten, would you say that they were being bad friends for doing that? Faye wasn't crying constantly either, she was able to work just fine and had friends, would you say that the therapy for her was unnecessary?

1) http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1395

Dora admits that they don't have much in common.

2) There is a time and place.  Not at work in front of people, and not over and over.  Faye has made her point already, Dora seems to be rejecting it.  If Faye keeps pushing therapy it will only strain their friendship.

3) They just fight a lot lately, but yes, I agree they are still good friends.  I don't think Faye should be judging people on their forwardness given that Angus was basically a huge creeper when he first appeared.  

4) If her friends deserted her she would be more motivated to get help.  Although, it'd be pretty hard for them to do that since she employs half of them.  Their just isn't a lot of motivation to get help right now, everything in her life is getting back on track.  Only in a downward spiral will she want to get help.

5) There's a difference between a soft push and a forceful push.  The way Faye is doing it is coming off as naggy and bossy, and isn't the right way to go about it.  She should also wait till after work.

[JordanDH]

Once again, Faye is trying to drag Dora down.  Jim is now declared a creeper (Angus was the definition of creeper when he was introduced) and Dora needs to not date and get help.  When did Faye become an expert on these things?  I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success!  So naturally she knows everything!  It's as if she wants Dora to get help to feel better about herself needing help.

Good for your Dora.  Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better.  Stop taking advice from all your troubled coworkers!

She is the expert on not dating and getting help.  She didn't date Marten and got help.  And as a result of that she's now in a pretty healthy relationship.  Anyone in the comic who commented on the relationship said how well they worked together.  Also, being troubled doesn't make someone braindead.  Some people don't take their own good advice.  Other than professionally, how is Dora successful?  Dora admitted to needing help.  I think that's everything.

[Spectreofwar]

1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395

Dora admits that they don't have much in common.

Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.

She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.

How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.

What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?

P.S. Link works now.

[tomart]

Spectre, I think the Original Post offers a clue:

I've not convinced she was happy with Marten; therefore, she created situations in her mind to get mad at him.  Dora's a young, successful business woman.  Marten is a flaky librarian assistant with no ambition to do anything.  Once the initial attraction wore off, I wouldn't put it past Dora to wonder why she was even dating someone who didn't have the same drive as her.  Marten is...well....kind of a loser when you look at the big picture.  So Dora breaks up with him, with hardly any emotion towards it, and now she needs to get help?  I think not.
Dora, you're perfectly fine.  Date someone that's more your type and it'll work out fine.

Dora is a successful business woman;  Marten is a flaky loser with no ambition.  By these definitions, they do have little in common besides good sex, and that fades.

If this were an Ayn Rand novel, we'd be bulldozed with Dora's healthy life-affirming positive qualities and business successes, while Manatee boy would be a plot device to show human stagnation and failure. He'd be in therapy, or put on a bus, but Dora?  Never!  She's the success=hero and can do no wrong!  

Except that in Questionable Content, Marten is our (anti?) hero.  For him, success = supporting himself and fun with friends.  A whole different, relaxed kettle of beer.

I agree, Dora was (unconsciously?) creating problems, perhaps aware she had made a mistake THAT MARTEN WOULDN'T EVEN SEE AS A MISTAKE. So how to end it?
Lots of human mistakes are never admitted, even (especially!) to oneself, just ways are found to "fix" (avoid, walk away from) the problems...
 
Perhaps this is why she ended it with no real explanation to Marten; he wouldn't have understoob.

       edit:  he wouldn't have understood "Lack of Ambition" as a reason to leave someone.

[TRVA123]

Thank god this isn't an Ayn Rand novel, her characters don't talk to each other so much as monologue at each other.

I think Marten would understand where Dora's problems in the relationship are coming from, it's just that there's nothing he could do about her insecurities that he wasn't doing already. He'd have to go to ridiculous lengths to avoid any other women, discuss every new cosmetic decision he makes with Dora ahead of time, never mention/have feelings or attractions for any other women, and give up all privacy rights. This list is a bit absurd, and I don't think Dora is that bad consistently, but they have had fights based on all of these things.

Dora needs to learn to trust those around her. Part of dating someone is to trust that they won't violate the terms of your relationship, even if you're not there to keep an eye on them. esp if you're dating someone with an active social life, if you didn't just sit back and trust them you might drive yourself crazy.

I don't think dating someone else will change Dora's ability to trust her partner. Unless she dates a shut in with no other friends. She will have to work on her trust issues before she can have a successful relationship. Or a good vacation, for that matter, does she trust anyone to run CoD while she goes away for a week or two/

[Tiogyr]

Thank god this isn't an Ayn Rand novel, her characters don't talk to each other so much as monologue at each other.

When they aren't raping each other.

I think Marten would understand where Dora's problems in the relationship are coming from, it's just that there's nothing he could do about her insecurities that he wasn't doing already.

Maybe if Marten had anything interesting going on in his life (any hobbies that he could share with any girlfriend so they had something to do besides fuck each other and gripe about work), things wouldn't have been so stagnant so quickly.

He'd have to go to ridiculous lengths to avoid any other women, discuss every new cosmetic decision he makes with Dora ahead of time, never mention/have feelings or attractions for any other women, and give up all privacy rights. This list is a bit absurd, and I don't think Dora is that bad consistently, but they have had fights based on all of these things.

Dora needs to learn to trust those around her. Part of dating someone is to trust that they won't violate the terms of your relationship, even if you're not there to keep an eye on them. esp if you're dating someone with an active social life, if you didn't just sit back and trust them you might drive yourself crazy.

Here is the interesting thing: This isn't an either or situation where only one person is to blame for the relationship going to Hell. Both Marten and Dora have equal shares in why things didn't work out (90% of which has to do with them flat out not being compatible in any way once they got past physical attraction to one another).

All the tolerance and trust in the world will still fail to save a relationship that was 100% based on just wanting to bone each other and having zero common interests, hobbies or perspectives on any of a myriad of topics each person considers important as the relationship tried to develop.

I don't think dating someone else will change Dora's ability to trust her partner. Unless she dates a shut in with no other friends. She will have to work on her trust issues before she can have a successful relationship. Or a good vacation, for that matter, does she trust anyone to run CoD while she goes away for a week or two/

As I recall, Marten set the tone for what he expected from Dora throughout the relationship (automatically freaking out and begging her not to kill him because he saw Hanner's boob, as someone pointed out in one of these threads that are all talking about the same subject). That kind of behavior goes on for several months and Dora gives him what he wants by acting according to how he repeatedly tells her he expects her to act, you see where this is going...

Point is, yes, Dora has issues, but with Marten it really was a case of him inviting the shit he got thanks to continuously telling Dora how he expected her to act. Restating the point: The relationship was doomed to begin with because neither Marten nor Dora were even remotely compatible with the type of person the other one was at the time the relationship started.

[stoutfiles]

1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395

Dora admits that they don't have much in common.

Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.

She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.

How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.

What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?

P.S. Link works now.

If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old.  He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants.  That never works.  He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck.  One aspect...it's his only aspect!  Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar.  I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.

My problem is that anyone dating Marten would appear crazy as they'd want to escape the bleak purgatory he creates but would have no openings to do so.  The whole time with him would be an unstimulating bore; witty comments and niceness only go so far.  I want to see Dora date someone who's not affiliated with her brother and who's not our everyman.

[O8h7w]

If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old.  He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants.  That never works.  He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck.  One aspect...it's his only aspect!  Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar.  I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.

You may think so, but we don't know all about the characters' lives. If we do, the only conclusion is that most of the characters have no interests but booze and relationships. Think about, what do we know about Dora's interests? Coffee, a small interest in computers and there has been some music discussions. Most of the comic is actually discussions about relationships and drama in their circle of friends, and that may be pretty much what their lives are all about. It's actually what I would call the main interest of most people, and it's extraordinarily obvious in the case of Marten.

[Blackjoker]

1) http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1395

Dora admits that they don't have much in common.

Stoutfiles, you are seriously reaching.

She said that ONE aspect of Marten, which is a sizeable portion of him, is one she'll never be able to have a conversation with him about, and even if she did it'd be a girlfriend one.

How on EARTH did you take that to mean, and I quote, "they don't have much in common"? Face it, you're projecting, and at this point doing a poor job of it. If you have issues with Marten, just say it, but now you're just grasping at straws.

What really is your problem with this angle of the strip? What about Dora puts you so zealously on her "side" of things?

P.S. Link works now.

If you'd bother to look at this strip like it was a real relationship, you'd see that someone as one-dimensional as Marten would get old.  He's a Nice Guy who puts on a happy face everyday and bows to whatever Dora wants.  That never works.  He has one interesting hobby and they can't talk about it...Hanners and co. get a slightly interesting Marten while Dora gets a manatee she can fuck.  One aspect...it's his only aspect!  Otherwise he's a guy who works at a meaningless job, and then goes to a coffee shop, a bakery, or a bar.  I've never hid the fact that I have a big problem with Marten having any motivation to better himself, especially for a guy that never seems to be happy.

My problem is that anyone dating Marten would appear crazy as they'd want to escape the bleak purgatory he creates but would have no openings to do so.  The whole time with him would be an unstimulating bore; witty comments and niceness only go so far.  I want to see Dora date someone who's not affiliated with her brother and who's not our everyman.

As opposed to Dora who could, if viewed through similar uncharitable lenses, be seen as sex obsessed and who manages a little coffee shop and has very little respect for others boundaries. And as mentioned before we don't see every moment of their lives, as for Dora...we see her complain about her cat, know she has a bit of computer skill but goes ballistic if someone fails to compliment it heavily enough (see when Marigold saw it for the first time). Dora doesn't exactly have a ton of depth either.

And to the idea that they had nothing in common...well apparently she and Marten liked watching horror movies together, the knew enough about her interests to get both of them tickets to a convention catering to same. Marten is a bit of a music nerd, aside from also being able to play music, but you'll notice that Dora tends to have no problem talking about music, her tastes are just a bit different and more narrow, focused more on heavy metal than Marten. They played video games together as well a few times for get togethers. For all we know everyone in the cast could be a cthulhu cultist, both due to the nature of the webcomic and the nature of webcomic time we don't see every aspect of them or all of their hobbies. Faye and Angus might not have a ton of overlapping interests either, Angus probably has a fair interest in politics but Faye never expressed interests in it, does that mean that their relationship is doomed too?

[JordanDH]

Maybe if Marten had anything interesting going on in his life (any hobbies that he could share with any girlfriend so they had something to do besides fuck each other and gripe about work), things wouldn't have been so stagnant so quickly.

Why is the responsibility entirely with him?