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[Blackjoker]

If I may make some points here from my own perspective on the comic/topic.

1) Dora has had several freakouts over things that Marten has done, there was her little rampage when he got his hair cut and didn't consult her on it. There was the time when Cossette flirted with him back before we knew her name, Dora found out about it because she mentioned it, and then Dora decided to lay a trap for Marten (this one might be iffy for some people admittedly). Marten wouldn't have cheated on her, hadn't and in fact was often very nice to her and tried to do things to make her happy. The big problems I had with her involved the hug incident and later on what led to the breakup.

2) Dora had realized that she had behaved irrationally when she looked at what occurred, in some cases even a few minutes afterwards and kept mentioning that she needed to get it dealt with and yet never did. She made sure that Faye went to see her therapist (which was a good thing) but pretty much had to be physically threatened by Faye to do it. Doras issues weren't as large as Fayes but they were still there, she was paranoid and didn't trust those around her. She also tended to jump to conclusions and ignored other peoples boundaries.

3) In vino veritas is essentially a lie flavored with truth. Alcohol makes you less inhibited, so yes you might not use your mental filter as much as you would normally and will instead just say what comes to mind. However, it also means that you aren't thinking about things as often and your thought process is rather clouded. Presumably if you think that a drunken person is totally truthful then when they sing atonally and often badly and say how great they sound their thoughts would be the same sober? Martens commentary was anger and bitterness, he had been dumped by Dora after she violated boundaries and got self righteous when he pointed out that her actions were unfair and rude. He was angry because he felt like he had been a nice guy and yet fate kept kicking him in the junk, he was angry because Dora chose her own insecurities over him, and Faye happened to be the target next to him and she was yelled at both for some of his own inner frustration with her, some of his anger at that time at the female half of the human race, and yeah there was probably some feeling for her still lingering but I don't think it exists the way it used to.

4) It's also worth noting here that Marten has had to put up with a lot more crap, much of it undeserved, than what Dora has had to deal with. When his mother came to visit she seemed to be there to rub salt in wounds along with adding a few fresh cuts. Steve just added more trouble to all of it, in fact Faye and Hannelore were among the only people really trying to help Marten and their help was sometimes mixed at times. Dora received a lot more support and help from those involved even though Faye was angry enough to clock her or at least yell until her throat gave out, so there is that factor too.

5) Just a comment on the A and B thing, if we're going to take that track then every person who isn't your first love should feel slighted?

[gprimr1]

Does anyone remember the strip where Marten tells Dora he was helping sick Hanners, he put her on the sofa and she wasn't wearing a bra and he saw everything? She almost didn't care if I remember.

[Blackjoker]

Does anyone remember the strip where Marten tells Dora he was helping sick Hanners, he put her on the sofa and she wasn't wearing a bra and he saw everything? She almost didn't care if I remember.

Actually it was kind of adorable, she hugged him and said "At least I know I can trust you, if you cheated on me the guilt would make your head explode." or something to that extent.

[celticgeek]

Marten And Hanners Boob.

[DSL]

That is the one confusing aspect ... Not Hanners's boob, but the unpredictability of Dora's mistrust. Cosette's flirt and the resulting broadsword and trap, The haircut. Innocent remarks by the other women in the cast taken as threats. The Underpants Incident. Contrast those with Dora's offering to let Marten "fall asleep in a pile of ladies," or telling an unsuspecting female customer (who is tired of being propositioned for a threesome in every coffeeshop in town ...)  " my boyfriend thinks you're cute." The one consistency I can find is that Dora's OK with it, whatever it is, as long as it's her idea, and she's in control. It might be more subconscious than malicious -- she does on occasion display compassion and maybe empathy, particularly if she can assume the mother/older sister/superior role -- but the desire to be the one making the decision is there.
After all ( just to take this back to the obvious place) she didn't feel herself to be in control when Sven was coasting through both their childhoods.
Dang, I hope if Jeph ever draws Dora's therapist, he looks like me.

[Carl-E]

You're hired. 

[Torlek]

3) In vino veritas is essentially a lie flavored with truth. Alcohol makes you less inhibited, so yes you might not use your mental filter as much as you would normally and will instead just say what comes to mind. However, it also means that you aren't thinking about things as often and your thought process is rather clouded. Presumably if you think that a drunken person is totally truthful then when they sing atonally and often badly and say how great they sound their thoughts would be the same sober? Martens commentary was anger and bitterness, he had been dumped by Dora after she violated boundaries and got self righteous when he pointed out that her actions were unfair and rude. He was angry because he felt like he had been a nice guy and yet fate kept kicking him in the junk, he was angry because Dora chose her own insecurities over him, and Faye happened to be the target next to him and she was yelled at both for some of his own inner frustration with her, some of his anger at that time at the female half of the human race, and yeah there was probably some feeling for her still lingering but I don't think it exists the way it used to.

I've found that in vino veritas functions on a curve. To a point, maybe three or four shots depending on the person, the alcohol lowers your mental filters but leaves most of the rest of your mental faculties intact. Beyond that, like after the whole bottle of bourbon which is where Marten was, there's no rhyme or reason to your thoughts anymore. Marten propositioning Faye wasn't an indication of lingering feelings. It was a bitter man who was drunk beyond all sensibility saying, "Hey, I'll bang Faye and that'll teach that bitch Dora." Had Hanners walked in, it would have been, "Hey, I'll bang Hanners." Had Cosette walked in it would've been, "Hey, I'll bang Cosette." Remember, drink giveth the desire though it taketh away the ability.

[cyro]

Due to the lack of significant definition regarding Dora's "bad relationships" I think it's damn near impossible to comment as to how therapy-worthy they are.

All we have is Sven's explaination, which in itself may be incomplete, and Doras own reference which she may be holding back still, especially if things where particularly bad.

From the information given, well it depends a lot on the person, but I wouldn't have thought it would result in therapy.

[jwhouk]

BlackJoker essentially said what I was thinking, but I do have one thing to throw out: It is interesting that her first session with her therapist consisted of about 48 minutes talking about her brother. That means something, I'd reckon.

[Carl-E]

It means her issues/insecurities probably go waaaaaay  back beyond her dating career to her upbringing. 

So they're pretty deep seated. 

So she's going to need some help with them, since they affect her life.  And that help can't come from people who are close, because so many of the people close to her are at the root of the problem. 


...and that's  why she needs therapy. 

[Mr. Doctor]

That's correct, I'm surprised the creator of this thread doesn't seem to remember the brother-issues and need-to-controll-everything-issues.

[stoutfiles]

That's correct, I'm surprised the creator of this thread doesn't seem to remember the brother-issues and need-to-controll-everything-issues.

And why can't Dora be controlling?  That's her personality, maybe she needs an ambitious guy who is constantly showing her how much he loves her.  Yes, let's use therapy to mold Dora into what we have defined as normal.

Why aren't people grabbing Hanners and saying "Not wanting to kiss people is wrong and it's ruining your life.  You need help."?  Why dont we get Marten some therapy for his lack of effort in achieving anything in his life?  Marigold for being a computer-playing shut in?

Dora is one of the most successful people in this strip.  Hell, half the QC cast works for her.  She's going to fine, she just needs to stop dating guys who aren't doing anything with their lives.

[TheEvilDog]

And why can't Dora be controlling?  That's her personality, maybe she needs an ambitious guy who is constantly showing her how much he loves her.  Yes, let's use therapy to mold Dora into what we have defined as normal.

Except that when people are controlling, it isn’t their life they're controlling, its someone else's and are you honestly saying thats right?

Why aren't people grabbing Hanners and saying "Not wanting to kiss people is wrong and it's ruining your life.  You need help."?  Why dont we get Marten some therapy for his lack of effort in achieving anything in his life?  Marigold for being a computer-playing shut in?

But Hanners knows that her OCD is controlling her life and is actively seeking help via therapy. Her getting a job at C.o.D. was more about trying to function as a person in a chaotic environment than it was about earning a wage.  Marten is functioning though. He has a job which is able to provide a roof over his head, that keeps him fed. He has friends who care for him, as well as that he has an emotional outlet through music, now granted we haven’t seen anything from the band, but he still has his guitar. Of the cast Marten seems to be the most emotionally stable person. Marigold has gotten out of her shell a little bit, has tried to make friends, hell, she even made a move for Angus before being rebuked. But in Marigold’s case, she has been verbally kicked and beaten for most of her life. Even Hanners can see Marigold does need help and has tried to become her friend, gradually drawing her away from the computer.

Dora is one of the most successful people in this strip.  Hell, half the QC cast works for her.  She's going to fine, she just needs to stop dating guys who aren't doing anything with their lives.

Dora is also one of the most erratic people in the comic. She’s had a string of abusive relationships before Marten and her self belief that he’d turn out to be like one of her abusive exes, despite all evidence to the contrary, caused her to sabotage her relationship with him. She was possessive of him, aggressive to other women who took some interest in him, while all the while would continue to flirt with his boss while Marten had to keep his eyes front and centre. “Its one rule for you, another rule for me”.

Reading your responses stoutfiles, I’d have to say you have no idea of how therapy works. In fact I’d go as far to say that you believe it to be a pseudoscience. Its also an attitude that does nothing except stigmatise those who suffer from mental illness, and that is something that Dora does suffer from. She’s suffered from years of being second best to her brother, years of abuse from boyfriends past. That takes its toll on the mind, and it does do damage to people. That alone should be reason enough for Dora to at least talk to someone.

[dragontart]

I'd say the most (maybe only) important reason why she could need therapy is that she doesn't want to be that way. Question might be why she doesn't want to be like that anymore, but I doubt it's just because society/other people/friends would generally find her behaviour unfitting. She might just want to stop annoying people she likes for basically no reason.
Also her behaviour is inconsistent, she's exploding over things which had been perfectly fine on a different occasion, so you couldn't even say what/how some of her personality traits really are.
She's still my favourite character.

But "therapy" has different connotations in different countries and languages. Here, therapy is generally seen as a really freaking big thing for really crapped up people. It's also quite hard to get, making it even more ..."special".

[pwhodges]

Where is "here"?  It's not in your profile.

[DSL]

Just clearing something up in my mind ... Am I right in assuming the kind of therapy most people in this forum are talking about (and the kind Jeph depicts) is designed, not to force a person into a socially acceptable "mold" but to help said person get a handle on him/herself so said person can work around or with whatever's in the way?

[Mr. Doctor]

Was going to answer back to  stoutfiles lines... But TheEvilDog wrote pretty much all the stuff I wanted to write about as well.

Why can't control people? You are really asking that? Please...

You really think her only problems are "guys who aren't doing anything with their lives"?. You don't even know the boyfriends she had and you are making things up to back up your theories. Most of her boyfriends were "alpha goths" so they clearly weren't any kind of passive dudes, they treated her like crap and you are not even thinking about her huge issues of insecurity because of always being the secong in everything with his brother.
The very first thing she talked about in her first therapy had nothing to do with boyfriends... just her brother.

Like dragontart said... Her lack of consistensy is quite extreme at times.

[pwhodges]

Am I right in assuming the kind of therapy most people in this forum are talking about (and the kind Jeph depicts) is designed, not to force a person into a socially acceptable "mold" but to help said person get a handle on him/herself so said person can work around or with whatever's in the way?

Certainly that's what I mean; it's also called Counselling, in the UK, at least.

[Emperor Norton]

Of the cast Marten seems to be the most emotionally stable person.

I would actually say Angus is the most emotionally stable... but Marten is up there too... EVERYTHING ELSE IN YOUR POST WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY THOUGH .

(nitpick,nitpick,nitpick)

[TheEvilDog]

Of the cast Marten seems to be the most emotionally stable person.

I would actually say Angus is the most emotionally stable... but Marten is up there too... EVERYTHING ELSE IN YOUR POST WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY THOUGH .
(nitpick,nitpick,nitpick)

Rather then derail this topic from Dora, I'll send a PM.

[Is it cold in here?]

I've TRIED to get over it, but I just can't.

If she can't get over something on her own despite having tried then it's time for her to escalate.

[dragontart]

Where is "here"?  It's not in your profile.

Germany. What you know as counsel(l)ing basically doesn't exist here, it's sometimes offered by social workers or independent "freelance" psychologists (medics of any kind are usually paid and regulated by our health insurances) and it doesn't count as medical treatment.
"Therapy" mostly includes mental homes, too many psychotropic drugs and people never again taking you serious.

And while the latter is not what Dora is aiming for, the idea of "psychological treatment" might leave a certain negative impression to some. Just thought I could mention it, in case that's part of stoutfiles' irritation about Dora needing/wanting therapy.

[jwhouk]

Oh, wow, that is sad. Freud, Jung and Adler are probably rolling in their graves to hear that counseling doesn't exist in their native land/lands.

[TheEvilDog]

Like Dragontart in Germany, you won't find many therapists or the such here, in fact you'd most likely only find one through a GP's referral. That said, when I was in secondary school my class teacher was the school's religion teacher, who was also a trained psychologist and who had a practise up in the North. According to him, the job of any therapist is to just listen to someone, to hear their problems and to offer a new, impartial perspective to a person. Thats their main purpose, to listen, its also the key to a good therapist.

Put it this way, if you have a bad tooth, you go to the dentist to have it removed or it gets infected. If you break your leg, you go to the hospital to have it fixed and placed in plaster or the bone or leg might not heal properly. If you have a problem or issues with trust, why shouldn't you talk to a trained professional about them? If you have a problem of trust that causes you to ruin a loving relationship, why shouldn't you talk about it with someone who wants to help you? Its the same principle.

[Mr. Doctor]

Put it this way, if you have a bad tooth, you go to the dentist to have it removed or it gets infected. If you break your leg, you go to the hospital to have it fixed and placed in plaster or the bone or leg might not heal properly. If you have a problem or issues with trust, why shouldn't you talk to a trained professional about them? If you have a problem of trust that causes you to ruin a loving relationship, why shouldn't you talk about it with someone who wants to help you? Its the same principle.

Exactly! Just like you wouldn't fix your tooth yourself because you don't really have a clue about it... Dora in the same situation, she doesn't know how to get over it.

I've TRIED to get over it, but I just can't.

This is the second time in a row I see a fluid and well thought post of yours... You got my respect sir!

[Near Lurker]

Hoping no one saw my earlier, angrier, oversharing rant: I have been to too many health workers and heard too many differing opinions, often with brazen insults, to believe that psychology is anything but a null field.  Except where delusional disorders are concerned (and even there there are notorious problems with them giving patients delusions), they're nothing but cold readers, mirroring what you've already decided back to you, and if they can help you, they can help you, but we've gone ahead and given them prescription pads and a set of handcuffs.  To be honest, I think this is the best argument for an end to all drug prohibition: society is so desperate for drugs, and some people truly do need them, that we've put them in the hands of glorified carnival workers, and given them de facto jails to justify it.

[Emperor Norton]

Hoping no one saw my earlier, angrier, oversharing rant: I have been to too many health workers and heard too many differing opinions, often with brazen insults, to believe that psychology is anything but a null field.  Except where delusional disorders are concerned (and even there there are notorious problems with them giving patients delusions), they're nothing but cold readers, mirroring what you've already decided back to you, and if they can help you, they can help you, but we've gone ahead and given them prescription pads and a set of handcuffs.  To be honest, I think this is the best argument for an end to all drug prohibition: society is so desperate for drugs, and some people truly do need them, that we've put them in the hands of glorified carnival workers, and given them de facto jails to justify it.

Maybe its different where you from, but in the US a therapists is generally a PSYCHOLOGIST, not a PSYCHIATRIST. Meaning: they aren't medical doctors, they don't have prescription pads. Not only that LOL at people getting put in mental institutions for petty reasons like you seem to imply.

As for the rest of your post... how's it feel to be so superior to the rest of those idiots who believe in therapy and have benefited? I've never needed it myself, but I know way too many people who have gone to a GOOD therapist and come out the other side with their problems much more in control. Now, I agree there is probably too many shitty psychologists, but that doesn't equate to what they do not working when done well.

[pwhodges]

This subject has offered a sharp reminder that in an international forum like this, misunderstandings can arise from entirely unsuspected causes - I guess we should all take it as a reminder to be careful in reacting to other people's remarks!  In my case, even though some of my family live in Germany, I had no idea that the concept of therapy was so different there.

they're nothing but cold readers, mirroring what you've already decided back to you,

Yes, that happens; yes there are bad therapists; in the UK, at least, not so many or so bad as to be a major cause of concern, I would say.  For my part I have only had good therapists (for a short time around my divorce).  I also don't know, Near Lurker, where you are; but there is a not uncommon perception held here in the UK that therapy is turned to in the US with less justification than here (especially for children), and that as this requires more therapists, the standard might be lower.  However, this is anecdotal, and I have no evidence either way on it.

[TheEvilDog]

Hoping no one saw my earlier, angrier, oversharing rant: I have been to too many health workers and heard too many differing opinions, often with brazen insults, to believe that psychology is anything but a null field.  Except where delusional disorders are concerned (and even there there are notorious problems with them giving patients delusions), they're nothing but cold readers, mirroring what you've already decided back to you, and if they can help you, they can help you, but we've gone ahead and given them prescription pads and a set of handcuffs.  To be honest, I think this is the best argument for an end to all drug prohibition: society is so desperate for drugs, and some people truly do need them, that we've put them in the hands of glorified carnival workers, and given them de facto jails to justify it.

But you can say the same about any medical professional. The good ones will take the time to listen and to make the proper diagnosis. Then you have the doctors/nurses/surgeons/dentists who should have never been allowed to graduate, let alone practise their profession. How many people have died of a heart attack because their doctor missed the signs? Or what about the people who find out they have terminal cancer because the doctor didn't bother to order that vital x-ray? Lets not forget the people who have had surgery only for the surgeons to discover instruments left behind after a previous operation. For every bad therapist you guys might think of, there are just as many more "legitimate" medical professionals who are worse.

[Carl-E]

And jwhouk (like myself) is American.  We have a notoriously difficult time with geography...

IN all honesty, i thought Austria was still part of Germany until I checked!  My apologies, Austrians - wherever you are!   

[dragontart]

I just read (did more research because of this here) that the American English word "Counseling" is now used in our pretty country for a totally brand new inventive [/irony] branch of mental help offers. Obviously we don't even have an own word for that. (When you translate "counseling" it usually doesn't mean something about psychological help.)
Also, according to the internets, more and more health insurances take over the costs for limited hours of psychotherapy if you can find a psychologist who offers such counseling, have a referral from [I can't find it again but my head is aching too much to find out] and you and your new therapist convince your insurance that you really need that therapy.
Anyways. Now you're up to date. Me too. Maybe I could give it a try again.
The bad image of psychological help because of said associations is correct, though. (Also it's often assumed that "mental/psychological" equals "imaginary" problem but that's a different story. Might be the reason for the shortage of psychologists.)
This was completely off topic but I didn't want to let it stand uncorrected.

Germany, Austria and Switzerland don't have much in common except the language and their geographical location. Guess they're better of that way, hum.

[jwhouk]

I refuse to Godwin this thread.

Seriously: Mr. Hodges does point out a problem with the cultural mores that everyone brings to the table when they read this strip.

In the US, when someone is having issues similar to what Faye was having over a relationship or relationships, it isn't unusual for them to try to find a licensed therapist with whom discuss their situation.

Most Americans, by the way, would understand the word "therapist" to equate to "psychiatrist", "psychologist", or "counselor". Bottom line is, they're people who are trained to listen and help people with behavioral issues - whether by therapy, medication, conditioning, training and/or just listening.

Faye, having benefited from such a situation, saw that Dora was having an issue with her relationship - mostly, how she ended it - she recommended that she seek out a therapist as well.

Yes, she had to coerce her, but Faye saw it as necessary (or, as those of us who are counselors* would say, "using tough love") to help her friend and boss.

We haven't seen or heard about many of Dora's sessions, compared to Faye's visits with Dr. Corrine. This may just be an oversight on Jeph's part, or it may be intentional; either she hasn't had any more sessions since the one we last heard about, or Jeph just decided not to put it into the strip.

Regardless of what or who or why she's in therapy, Dora's the only one who can determine that she's ready to get back into the dating scene. Time might be the only way to tell if she made the right choice by going out with Jim.

* - Yes, I am a counselor. Sometimes I don't do any of the stuff I listed, but sometimes I do. Deal.

[Is it cold in here?]

No proof that it's cause and effect, but the Pugnacious Peach is doing a lot better since she restarted therapy. Maybe it will be equally good for Dora.

[JordanDH]

With regards to the now dead "truth serum" debate: Has anyone ever gotten really drunk and slept with someone they would never have slept with sober?  Or lied when drunk to get sex?  Or know of someone who has?  Does that seem like the effects of a truth serum?

Oh, and most of the time, when you're talking about things that aren't of the conscious mind, the correct term is "unconscious", not "subconscious".  It's just one my pet peeves.

From Wikipedia, the source of all our knowledge (ok, but it's referenced too)

"If someone talks of subconsciousness, I cannot tell whether he means the term topographically – to indicate something lying in the mind beneath consciousness – or qualitatively – to indicate another consciousness, a subterranean one, as it were. He is probably not clear about any of it. The only trustworthy antithesis is between conscious and unconscious."

Thus, as Charles Rycroft has explained, "subconscious" is a term "never used in psychoanalytic writings".[6] And, in Peter Gay's words, use of "subconscious" where "unconscious" is meant is "a common and telling mistake";[7] indeed, "when [the term] is employed to say something 'Freudian', it is proof that the writer has not read his Freud".[8]

Freud's own terms for mentation taking place outside conscious awareness were das Unbewusste (rendered by his translators as "the Unconscious") and das Vorbewusste ("the Preconscious"); informal use of the term "subconscious" in this context thus creates confusion, as it fails to make clear which (if either) is meant. The distinction is of significance because in Freud's formulation the Unconscious is "dynamically" unconscious, the Preconscious merely "descriptively" so: the contents of the Unconscious require special investigative techniques for their exploration, whereas something in the Preconscious is unrepressed and can be recalled to consciousness by the simple direction of attention. The erroneous, pseudo-Freudan use of "subconscious" and "subconsciousness" has its precise equivalent in German, where the words inappropriately employed are das Unterbewusste and das Unterbewusstsein.

Oh, and all the necessary jubilation of a first post and so on.

[TRVA123]

I'm getting sick of this truth-serum debate. I don't see it as an either/or sort of issue. Each side of the debate has merit, and doesn't completely preclude the other side.

Marten was drunk, which involves lowered inhibitions, causing him to behave completely inappropriately around Faye, doing and saying things he would never have said otherwise. I don't see why this means that he absolutely was lying, or telling the truth.

Its hard to completely get over someone, and it seems completely plausible to me that Marten still is a bit bitter over the Faye situation. This doesn't mean that he only dated Dora as a "placeholder" or anything else. His relationship with Dora was wholehearted, to my reading of the strips. But with the breakup with Dora making Marten feel very bitter, he probably was reminded of another "failed" romantic relationship that he still felt some bitterness toward. This is speculation, but I don't think it's unreasonable to come to this conclusion.

What Marten said was a mix of truth, spite, lashing out, and exaggeration. He wanted to hurt Faye, he still harbored some hurt feelings over her not returning his romantic feelings, and he was just in a bad place mentally.

[TRVA123]

Dora is one of the most successful people in this strip.  Hell, half the QC cast works for her.  She's going to fine, she just needs to stop dating guys who aren't doing anything with their lives.

Professional success isn't the only type of success. It is also not necessarily a sign of mental health, in some cases it's quite the opposite.

Dora is very good at running her business. I don't think she would be half as good if she were working under someone and not in control. But Dora was smart enough to choose a career strategy that played to her strengths.

This does not translate well to romantic relationships. If Dora wanted to have complete control over her romantic partner She would be in a very different (and much more kinky) relationship. Dora seems to want a stable relationship where she and her partner are roughly equals, true partners. But Dora's (possibly unconscious?) need to be in tight control of her environment prevents her from letting her romantic partner have the autonomy that they would in an equal relationship. This discrepancy between what Dora wants and what she creates is one of the reasons that she would benefit from seeing a therapist.

Dora is not good at reading herself/understanding her intentions. If she were she would be much more consistent in her emotional responses. Going to a therapist/counsellor/psychologist/whatever would give Dora a chance to sort out her emotions, intentions, and thought processes. Hopefully she will learn what triggers her freak outs, and learn how to step outside of herself and question the appropriateness of her reaction. Dora's core personality isn't likely to change from therapy, nor is her business success going to be altered.

Dora and Marten were by no means a perfect relationship. But I don't think the iceberg that sunk this ship was Marten's lack of Chatham business drive/strategy.

[Is it cold in here?]

Now that was a perceptive post.

[Boomslang]

I view Marten's response as more adapting to the problem and coming to terms with it's existence. It's a bad idea when you can solve the problem- but it's not a bad way of dealing with problems you can't solve. And that's true whether the problem belongs to someone else (as with Dora's issues) or it's not solvable (Hanners).

If there's a definite flaw with the way Marten does things, it's that he tends to view all problems of an significance as out of his control and so adopts the 'bend in the wind' attitude when he could do something and be happier.

[TheEvilDog]

Of the cast Marten seems to be the most emotionally stable person.

If by "emotionally stable," you mean, "most likely to try and smooth problems over, hoping they go away," then yes, I'd agree.

Emotionally stable as in if you look at what Marten has revealed about his own past history, you would think he should be one of the more messed up people in the cast. Parents divorced bitterly when he was 10, his father coming out as gay, which is what was presumably the cause of the divorce. Not to mention that his mother is one of the world's most famous dominitricies/burlesque models, and an overbearing one at that. Each night several members of her troupe would be at the house, both women and men, some of whom were in drag. He was bullied repeatedly in school, presumably because some people found out what his mother did for a living, or perhaps it was simply because he was a weedy kid. Not to mention Pintsize, who would have driven most people insane years ago. Compare him to the other cast members and barring Angus, Marten is the most even keeled person in the group.

Now, we could talk about Marten's sense of apathy, but thats a topic already being covering in the "Does Marten have goals?" topic, which I've posted my own ideas about there, as this topic is about Dora and her issues.

[cabbagehut]

Why does Dora need therapy?  Because she is unhappy with herself, and doesn't know how to stop being unhappy with herself.

A therapist isn't magic - s/he cannot "fix" people.  But what they can do is guide you along.  You go in, tell them what's wrong, and what your plans are for fixing it, and the point out unhealthy or untrue thought patterns that are tripping you up.  It gives you a place to say things that you don't want to tell other people, and you don't have to worry about damaging that relationship.  This person is paid to listen to you blather about yourself and your problems.

I've been in and out of therapy for the past 10 or so years.  Sometimes, it's quite helpful.  Other times, not so much.  It largely depended on the therapist, and how willing I was to accept their interpretations of me and my solutions.  Some of them were idiots.  But others have really helped me and pointed out where I am ignoring a real problem, or how I'm hurting myself.  Dora could benefit from constructive criticism (couldn't we all?) about her behavior from someone she doesn't have to trust, like, or get along with.  Coming from someone like Faye, Hannelore, or Marten (clearly not a good option anymore), it could come off as incredibly hurtful and judgmental.  Raven, Penelope, Cosette, or other cast members don't know her well enough to do it in a way I think she'd believe.  No one can win.  She doesn't need therapy because of one failed relationship.  She needs therapy because people have deeply hurt her, and she can't stop hurting people she cares about as a defense mechanism.

Therapy isn't for hopelessly-broken people only.  It's a tool one uses when they feel there is a problem.  It can be as simple as needing a sounding board, or as much as needing someone to hold your hand and walk you through your solutions.  Maybe you need to be referred to get medication, maybe not.  None of these tools have to be permanent fixtures in your life.  You do what makes you feel better and get you to be better-functioning.  When you feel it has run its course, you stop.  If it doesn't work, you try something else.  Therapy isn't an insult.

As for in vino veritas, I can't say I'm more truthful when I've been drinking.  I'm about the same, but I tend to say more than I should, and make more solid declarations on feelings I really don't have that strongly.  Sometimes these things are true, but they're often not.  I could say them in better ways that are more accurate, or I'm reacting too strongly to a stimulus that normally wouldn't make me act that way. 

Girls cry when they have to dump someone, it's not fun.  Girls especially cry when someone bear hugs them and tell them they have to get help because something's not right with them.  Faye, who didn't want to be with Marten, is telling Dora she's crazy for not wanting to be with Marten.  What?

Has Dora ever dated an ambitious person or have they all been hipster townies?  Maybe Dora should try dating someone different before she's deemed crazy and needs help?  Maybe a guy that is nice to you isn't always enough in a relationship?

That's kinda sexist to make such a blanket statement about why girls cry.  Some girls don't cry when they dump people or when they get bear-hugged/told they need help.  Why do Dora's tears need to be linked to her sex?

Dora also said repeatedly how happy she was with Marten.  She didn't break up with him because she didn't like him.  She left the relationship because she couldn't stop thinking he didn't love her, no matter how much he told her that he did.  I don't recall Dora once criticizing Marten's ambition or lack thereof (and I am not trolling archives to prove it for myself, but I am happy to be disproven here), so I don't see why an ambitious person would change anything, if Dora had the same reaction she did to Marten.

[JordanDH]

She should stay away from a psychodynamic therapist though.  I mean Freud had about three good ideas, those being the unconscious mind, ego defense mechanisms and talking cures, but a lot of the stuff he said was dogshit.  The psychosexual stages of development, for example.  And all dreams being wish-fulfillment.  I think a cognitive therapist would be best.

[jwhouk]

...you rang?

[Blackjoker]

Just clearing something up in my mind ... Am I right in assuming the kind of therapy most people in this forum are talking about (and the kind Jeph depicts) is designed, not to force a person into a socially acceptable "mold" but to help said person get a handle on him/herself so said person can work around or with whatever's in the way?

That would be my view as well, yes.

[stoutfiles]

Once again, Faye is trying to drag Dora down.  Jim is now declared a creeper (Angus was the definition of creeper when he was introduced) and Dora needs to not date and get help.  When did Faye become an expert on these things?  I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success!  So naturally she knows everything!  It's as if she wants Dora to get help to feel better about herself needing help.

Good for your Dora.  Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better.  Stop taking advice from all your troubled coworkers!

[Is it cold in here?]

The Pugnacious Peach has done this before. Remember her reaction when Wil asked Pennelope out?

[Skewbrow]

When did Faye become an expert on these things?  I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success!  So naturally she knows everything! 

Come on. Faye just arrived to do her shift and learned about the date. It is just her gut reaction to such a piece of news. She has had zero time to reflect on this. She is not trying to advice to Dora or anything. If anything, it is back to the old Dora vs. Faye give-and-take sass that many of us remember so fondly from the earlier years, complete with Raven going off on a tangent (or something totally disconnected).

[Carl-E]

I was looking for Faye's reaction to Wil asking out Penelope (I thought for a minute you were talking about the Hemingway strip), when I found how Dora's insecurities affect her in relation to her business. 


This has been  public service archive binge. 

[TRVA123]

In this case Faye has a valid (if terribly articulated) point. Dora is not ready for a relationship right now.

Although, now that I reread the breakup section, Dora never admitted that she should work through her insecurities. Faye was the one who essentially forced her into therapy. But I do think that Dora needs to stick with the therapy, her insecurities and her inability to handle them do seem to affect her life in a way that she doesn't want.

I'm worried that if this date goes well then Dora will decide that she doesn't need therapy and stop going.

[Blackjoker]

Once again, Faye is trying to drag Dora down.  Jim is now declared a creeper (Angus was the definition of creeper when he was introduced) and Dora needs to not date and get help.  When did Faye become an expert on these things?  I mean, her life is so great and on the fast track to success!  So naturally she knows everything!  It's as if she wants Dora to get help to feel better about herself needing help.

Good for your Dora.  Jim is different from your manatee ex-boyfriend and fits you much better.  Stop taking advice from all your troubled coworkers!

I take it from your view Dora can do no wrong?

[O8h7w]

In this case Faye has a valid (if terribly articulated) point. Dora is not ready for a relationship right now.

Although, now that I reread the breakup section, Dora never admitted that she should work through her insecurities. Faye was the one who essentially forced her into therapy. But I do think that Dora needs to stick with the therapy, her insecurities and her inability to handle them do seem to affect her life in a way that she doesn't want.

I'm worried that if this date goes well then Dora will decide that she doesn't need therapy and stop going.

Well, I only found this, but I think it was stated in the aftermath of more of the fights even long before the breakup that she wanted to do something about it. She never succeeded though, she needs the help of therapist to do that. And therefore I am worrying about the exact same thing, and hoping her therapist (or Faye, or Marten, or someone) doesn't let that happen.